Thank you, Jean, for a delightful description of my favorite sport, team and stadium. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Thanks, Michael. Good stuff. I'm about to show you the proof I mentioned that the Ó hAilche mentioned by Ó hUidhrín in the territory of the Éile in what's now north Tipperary are of straight Gaelic descent. (Whether or not they're your Ó hAilche in the south of Tipperary is another matter.) But first we have to have context. Each hereditary seanchadh (historian/lawyer/genealogist) went to school for at least 12-14 years after the equivalent of a good high school education in order to make themselves eligible to practice their profession. Doctors today don't go to school that long in order to simply basically qualify. Seanchas is translated now as 'traditional lore', but until the 17th century, it was the indivisible combination of Irish Gaelic law/history/genealogy administered by scores of hereditary families, all made rich by the value of their knowledge. If the seanchadh lied, obfuscated, or was simply wrong in reporting seanchas, he/she lost his/her honor-price, i.e., his/her status in society. In other words, they and their descendants were drummed out of the service and reduced to poverty forever. In other words, the penalty for making a mistake, even giving the wrong impression, was huge and everlasting. Before the period in question, i.e., before the taking of surnames, as late as the 7th century, Irish tribes were sometimes given false "official" genealogies by stronger allies in order to cement alliance. But the social institution of Irish seanchas (backed universally in the Gaelic world by Brehon Law and the hereditary clans in the service of Seanchas with their colleges, professors, professionals, and libraries) was so strong that we think we can identify most if not all of the false genealogies granted in Gaelic Ireland before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. We can even find or reasonably reconstruct the original, correct genealogies! To understate the case, the institution of Seanchas didn't like people messing around with Mother Seanchas. No matter what the reason. Tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of trained Seanchas professionals in every generation wouldn't let this kind of messing around go on, at least not without comment. As a case in point, the Fir Teathbha were given a false genealogy by my ancestors the Uí Néill around the 6-7th centuries, making them descend from Maine son of Niall instead of Maine of the Laighin. Once surnames were taken (say 10-11th centuries), one of the great families of the Fir Teathbha were the Ó Dálaigh, who themselves became a hereditary literary family from whom some of our list members descend. Over a thousand years after the granting of the false genealogy, writing in the mid 17th century, the last great seanchadh of the Uí Fhiachrach, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh, still wouldn't let the Ó Dálaigh "official" genealogy pass without comment, noting their original descent from the tribute-paying "Fir Bolg" as he put it, rather than from the Uí Néill. The Ó Dálaigh were stuck with the genealogy accepted by their ancestors. They had to defend it or die trying. But Ó hUidhrín had absolutely no vested interest in the genealogy or ethnicity of the Ó hAilche. It was no skin off Ó hUidhrín's nose either way, unless he screwed up when referencing them. So here, in the case of the Ó hAilche, we have a family who held one of the 8 lordships of Éile of the Cianachta. Not obscure at all - Lords with a capital L. Surrounded by hereditary genealogists on every side who would lose their honor-price, their status in Irish society, their ability to hold a job, the livelihood of their children and their descendants, if they fibbed or obfuscated or were, dare I say it, even just innocently WRONG about a genealogy. If the Ó hAilche were of Viking descent, somebody would have known, somebody would have said something, somebody would have sung like a canary. Is it possible that the Ó hAilche are oddly enough of Viking descent in what otherwise appears to be a perfectly normal Cianachta context? Is it possible that the required comment upon their lineage was lost in the ravages of the 17th century, when Irish manuscripts were burned by the ton and shipped to England by the fleet-load in order to be torn apart and recycled as book-binding? Sure, it's possible, but it didn't happen. Instead, in Ó hUidhrín's poem, we're looking at an original piece of Seanchas. Further, let's remember that Ó hUidhrín's continuation of Ó Dubhagáin's poem describes Ireland before the upheaval of the Norman invasion and it's supposed to be about "síl Ghaoidhil ghlóirmheadhraigh" (the 'seed of merry-voiced Gaodheal') as Ó Dubhagáin puts it on page 1. In other words, it's supposed to be about those who believed themselves descended from our eponymous ancestor Gaedheal, however merry-voiced he might have been. It's not supposed to be about Viking descendants, no matter how upstanding or completely Gaelicized they might have been. For example, not even the famous Ó Dubhghaill (O'Doyle) are mentioned despite how much land and power they held by the Norman invasion. That's because they're simply not Gaeil. Although fully Gaelic in language, law, custom, dress, mindset by the time of the Norman invasion, and powerful and rich in treasure and territory, the Ó Dubhghaill were originally Vikings, and of course in a society with hundreds of thousands of seanchadh running around, everybody knew it. So the Ó Dubhghaill and all the other good, upstanding, fully-Gaelicized Viking families aren't in the poem or its continuation by Ó hUidhrín because they didn't qualify based on the poem's single criterion: 'the seed of merry-voiced Gaedheal." I just checked the poem's index just to be sure that Ó hUidhrín continued on with Ó Dubhagáin's original intent. Sure enough, every single family mentioned is a family of Gaelic lords. No Vikings. Ó hUidhrín and his audience understood this poem to be solely about the Gaeil. Would Ó hUidhrín have known the ancestry of the Ó hAilche? Of course. It was the job of every seanchadh to know by memory the genealogy of every Gaelic saor ('free', i.e., noble) family. And if they weren't Gaeil, he would have known that too because that was also every seanchadh's job. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche in his continuation of Ó Dubhagáin's poem if they weren't Gaeil? No way. Would he have permitted a mis-interpretation? No way. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche if he weren't sure they were Gaeil? No way. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche if there were any possibility whatsoever that he might be wrong about their Gaelic descent, thereby getting himself and his descendants disgraced, dispossessed, drummed out of his hereditary profession? Absolutely no way. Therefore, here's the case crack: a) there's no doubt that the Ó hAilche mentioned in Ó hUidhrín's poem are of straight Gaedheal descent, b) they weren't hugely powerful but they were definitely saor ('free', i.e, noble) like all descendants of Gaedheal in the official genealogies, c) given the context of the poem (not the context of the geography, but the context of the poem and the placement of the Ó hUidhrín reference amongst the descendants of Tadhg son of Cian), they're probably Cianachta otherwise Ó hUidhrín probably would have said something about that so as not to give a mis-impression related to their descent, d) the Norman upheaval probably dispossessed them like so many other Irish families even greater than they (such as the Ó Gormáin / Mac Gormáin), and e) the original lordship of Tuath Faralt (the precise geographical location of which even O'Donovan couldn't find) is probably now buried under an Anglo-Norman place-name. So I come back to my original point - we can't speculate. There are too many possibilities. Instead, we have to look to Seanchas for the answers, and the Seanchas clearly demonstrates that it was Ó hUidhrín's intent to tell us that the Ó hAilche in the territory of the Éile in what's now north Tipperary are of straight Gaelic descent. But, as I say, whether or not they're your Ó hAilche in the south of Tipperary is another matter. Hope that's helpful. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael O'Hearn Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche / O'Hally Jerry, I have been particularly interested in this family name over the past several years mainly because I have been able to trace with reasonable accuracy all of my family's Irish ancestors to particular Irish septs and locations, including Cymro-Norman and Anglo Irish septs. There is a Danish website which also points out the fact that the person listed in the annals of Ulster as Tomar mac Ailche is in actuality a son of King Gorm the Old of Denmark giving as a reference the Annals of Ulster, and a note pertaining thereto (perhaps a gloss?) which I have been unable to locate, and I am not exactly sure what there proof is, since I do not understand Danish and their translation into English is not very good. In any case, Gorm or his son Harald Bluetooth left standing stones of commeration in Denmark which is about all of the certain evidence we have about Gorm and Thyra his wife. On one stone it memorializes Gorm, or perhaps Thyra, as "tamar" which apparently means a savior, achiever, or deliverer of Denmark. This is suprisingly similar to the name of Ailche's son Tomar. As noted earlier, Gorm was called "the Englishman" probably because he was born in England, which may be the ephithet which then becomes Ailche in Irish following Woulfe's conjecture. The 12th century Eoghanacht manuscript "CAITHREIM CEALLACHAIN CAlSIL" is today recognized as primarily propagandistic with some historical overtones. To the extent that it is historical, it probably derives from information passed down within the Eoghanachta families of O'Callahan and McCarthy, just as the first Danish historians Adam of Breman and Saxo Grammaticus got most of their information from the royal archives of the time. The chronologies in both the Eoghanachta document and Saxo's histories seem to be unrealistic. In CAITHREIM for example there is mention of Turgesius the Viking warlord and Sitric his son as being killed in battle, and Donncuan marrying Turgesius' daughter. In actuality, the Vikings Turgesius and Sitric lived a century earlier than Ceallachan and Donncuan. There maybe coins of the period bearing Sitric's name which could just as easily commemorate a leader of a century before. One explanation could be that instead of marrying Turgesius's daughter, Donncuan actually married a daughter of Cnut the son of Gorm who according to Saxo was a Viking who died in Ireland. Tomar mac Ailche identified as a son of Gorm was taken prisoner in Dublin after Olaf of Dublin defeated and captured the Limerick leader on Lough Rea in 937 AD. This was well within the time frame of Donncuan who, according to the Annals, along with his brother Eachtighearn (epononymous ancestor of my family's sept of O'Hearn, Ahern, etc.) were slain by Congalach in 948 AD while engaged in warfare under Ceallachan who according to Keating had been at war previously against the Vikings. I do agree that Bebhinn the woman who married Donncuan in CAITHREIM was probably at least half Irish on the maternal side, but the only Viking leader that I can find who died within that time frame is Cnut son of Gorm of Denmark, so perhaps O'Hart had this in mind when he says in a footnote that O'hAilche is a branch of the O'Kennedy sept and is of Donncuan's lineage. The possibility that I have in mind is that Cnut had at least one son, brother of Bebhinn, who may have been adopted by Donncuan after Cnut's death and later becoming chief of the O'hAilche sept as a branch of the O'Kennedy's. It is also possible, of course, that Tomar mac Ailche had children, and when surnames became widspread, that they too would also have been within the O'hAilche sept. There is no evidence that Harold Bluetooth was ever actually in Ireland so he is out of the picture. As far as location, O'Hart disagrees with the view that the O'Kennedys resettled into Ormond from Clare or Limerick in the 14th century when their faction of the O'Brien's was defeated in the Wars of Turlough, believing instead that they were there all along. At that time or after the Dal Cais victory at Clontarf in 1014, the O'hAilche sept with the backing of the O'Kennedys could have settled in their territory in north Tipperary which could have been included as part of Ormond at that time, or at least within the O'Kennedy sway of influence. I have discovered in my notes on hard disk that the reference to Keating regarding O'Hally from O'Halchi or O'hAlchi, who was chief of Tuathal Fearalt, is from my correspondence to Dan Hawley who says that Keating knew the Hallys as some lived on Keating's family's lands in southern Tipperary, and may have thought that the obscure Tuathal Fearalt of O'Heerin's poem was actually there in the locale of Newcastle rather than in and around Templemore and northwestern Kilkenny. The best. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! 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Hello Neil, Your note caught my eye as my grandmother was a Mary Elizabeth Holloway from Ahascragh, County Galway. As far as I know her Holloway family originally came from Ballinasloe, County, Galway. Ballinasloe is in East Galway. Family lore has it that they originally came from England over 200 years ago to work on the Clancarde estate. Apparently the Holloways quickly assimilated themselves into Irish life and married Irish Catholics. My gr-grandfather (John Holloway) was the son of a Michael Holloway and a Bridget Kelly(both Catholic). The prior generation was Protestant and broke ties with the later generations. My grandmother was the daughter of John Holloway and Mary Ellen Keegan, both from Ahascragh. Interestingly enough, my grandmother married a Tom Healy ( family from Knock, County Mayo) in San Francisco. I do know my grandfathers name(Healy) was misspelled as Haley in the early 20th century in the US. It is definitely Healy from Mayo. I have verified that. All very confusing?? Definitely!! Janet --------------------------------- Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.

Jerry, I have been particularly interested in this family name over the past several years mainly because I have been able to trace with reasonable accuracy all of my family's Irish ancestors to particular Irish septs and locations, including Cymro-Norman and Anglo Irish septs. There is a Danish website which also points out the fact that the person listed in the annals of Ulster as Tomar mac Ailche is in actuality a son of King Gorm the Old of Denmark giving as a reference the Annals of Ulster, and a note pertaining thereto (perhaps a gloss?) which I have been unable to locate, and I am not exactly sure what there proof is, since I do not understand Danish and their translation into English is not very good. In any case, Gorm or his son Harald Bluetooth left standing stones of commeration in Denmark which is about all of the certain evidence we have about Gorm and Thyra his wife. On one stone it memorializes Gorm, or perhaps Thyra, as "tamar" which apparently means a savior, achiever, or deliverer of Denmark. This is suprisingly similar to the name of Ailche's son Tomar. As noted earlier, Gorm was called "the Englishman" probably because he was born in England, which may be the ephithet which then becomes Ailche in Irish following Woulfe's conjecture. The 12th century Eoghanacht manuscript "CAITHREIM CEALLACHAIN CAlSIL" is today recognized as primarily propagandistic with some historical overtones. To the extent that it is historical, it probably derives from information passed down within the Eoghanachta families of O'Callahan and McCarthy, just as the first Danish historians Adam of Breman and Saxo Grammaticus got most of their information from the royal archives of the time. The chronologies in both the Eoghanachta document and Saxo's histories seem to be unrealistic. In CAITHREIM for example there is mention of Turgesius the Viking warlord and Sitric his son as being killed in battle, and Donncuan marrying Turgesius' daughter. In actuality, the Vikings Turgesius and Sitric lived a century earlier than Ceallachan and Donncuan. There maybe coins of the period bearing Sitric's name which could just as easily commemorate a leader of a century before. One explanation could be that instead of marrying Turgesius's daughter, Donncuan actually married a daughter of Cnut the son of Gorm who according to Saxo was a Viking who died in Ireland. Tomar mac Ailche identified as a son of Gorm was taken prisoner in Dublin after Olaf of Dublin defeated and captured the Limerick leader on Lough Rea in 937 AD. This was well within the time frame of Donncuan who, according to the Annals, along with his brother Eachtighearn (epononymous ancestor of my family's sept of O'Hearn, Ahern, etc.) were slain by Congalach in 948 AD while engaged in warfare under Ceallachan who according to Keating had been at war previously against the Vikings. I do agree that Bebhinn the woman who married Donncuan in CAITHREIM was probably at least half Irish on the maternal side, but the only Viking leader that I can find who died within that time frame is Cnut son of Gorm of Denmark, so perhaps O'Hart had this in mind when he says in a footnote that O'hAilche is a branch of the O'Kennedy sept and is of Donncuan's lineage. The possibility that I have in mind is that Cnut had at least one son, brother of Bebhinn, who may have been adopted by Donncuan after Cnut's death and later becoming chief of the O'hAilche sept as a branch of the O'Kennedy's. It is also possible, of course, that Tomar mac Ailche had children, and when surnames became widspread, that they too would also have been within the O'hAilche sept. There is no evidence that Harold Bluetooth was ever actually in Ireland so he is out of the picture. As far as location, O'Hart disagrees with the view that the O'Kennedys resettled into Ormond from Clare or Limerick in the 14th century when their faction of the O'Brien's was defeated in the Wars of Turlough, believing instead that they were there all along. At that time or after the Dal Cais victory at Clontarf in 1014, the O'hAilche sept with the backing of the O'Kennedys could have settled in their territory in north Tipperary which could have been included as part of Ormond at that time, or at least within the O'Kennedy sway of influence. I have discovered in my notes on hard disk that the reference to Keating regarding O'Hally from O'Halchi or O'hAlchi, who was chief of Tuathal Fearalt, is from my correspondence to Dan Hawley who says that Keating knew the Hallys as some lived on Keating's family's lands in southern Tipperary, and may have thought that the obscure Tuathal Fearalt of O'Heerin's poem was actually there in the locale of Newcastle rather than in and around Templemore and northwestern Kilkenny. The best. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

Hi Curtis, Are these births in America? Whereabouts? Killion Creek's first name seems like it has to be the Irish Cillian. If so, then the surname would be Creagh which could easily wind up as Creek / Kriek, pronounced pretty close to KREE-ick with stress on the first syllable. I can't find any other Irish surname which would naturally wind up as Creek. Creagh is a pretty close anglo approximation for Craobhach ('branch-like'), one of the few adjectival surnames in Ireland. The Craobhach are a branch of the Ó Neighill (O'Neill) in Limerick. This family is not related to the Ó Néill of Ulster. Why did Killion choose William as his replacement name for Cillian? It's not like going from Liam to William or Seán to John. I'm guessing his original name was Cillian Liaim Craobhach (Cillian 'of Liam' Craobhach). In other words, I'm guessing that Liam was his father's name and he was already known, at least back in Ireland, as Cillian Liaim, in order to distinguish him from cousins of the name Cillian. This is the common Irish naming convention when you have cousins, friends, relatives of the same first name. You use your father's or mother's name to help. So I'm Gearóid Liaim or Gearóid Róis (Gearóid of Liam or Gearóid of Rose) to distinguish me from my cousin Gearóid Éibhlín (Gearóid.of Eileen). Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Curtis Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Hawley/Hally/Holway/Holloway Neil, I have a John Washington HOLLOWAY b 1739 m Eleanor J. ? had a daughter by the name of Margaret HOLLOWAY b ca-1755 m 1769/70 Killion (William GRIEG/KRIEK) CREEK-he also married Lutillio I. HOLLOWAY. I was wondering in your research if you ever ran across this family. Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Van Alstyne" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Hawley/Hally/Holway/Holloway > I have been looking at some of the posts concerning the Hawley surname. I > have Holloway/Holway ancestors that were also from County Tipperary. My > Holloway/Holway ancestors were from Stonepark, Glen of Aherlow, County > Tipperary, Ireland. I am wondering if there is any connection between Hawley > and Holway? Also, if there is no connection, I am wondering if someone knows > the history and origin of the Holloway/Holway family in Ireland. > > Thanks! > > Neil > > _________________________________________________________________ > Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. > http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtaglin e_donation&FORM=WLMTAG > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

SNIPPET: Terry GEORGE is a filmmaker from Northern Ireland who was living in NY in 1997. His latest film was "Some Mother's Son." Per Terry -- "Until I came to America, I was not a great fan of spectator sports. This was probably because I grew up in Belfast, where my choices were extremely limited. Watching soccer was dangerous, tribal, and sectarian, while Gaelic football and hurling branded you a nationalist in the eyes of the forces of law and order. When I first came to America I associated the sight of a man hurling a small leather ball and another trying to hit it with that boring, snobbish, polite, lily-white game called cricket, the only sport in the world where the players break for tea. So I was, you might say, not favorably disposed to the game of baseball. My first encounter with baseball took place in a New York bar. It was a warm summer afternoon. A friend was late, so I watched the afternoon broadcast to combat the loneliness that overcomes a solo d! > rinker. Baseball seemed slow like cricket. It seemed to go on forever, > like cricket. But there were small clues that something was different > here. The players wore outlandishly colored clothes. Very American. In > the tradition of those American tourists with their black-and-white > checked polyester pants and barn-door-size Bermuda shorts. My attention > was captured. The guy with the bat swung it dangerously; the other guy > threw the ball with the passion of a bogside rioter. And when they were > waiting for the next terrifying exchange, both men looked as thought they > had taken to chewing a spare ball to exercise their jaws. Then the > thrower spat! The batter spat! And the man behind him in the blazer and > chest plate lifted up his mask and he spat! God Almightly, this wasn't > cricket. By the end of the game I was completely baffled. The batter's > objective was obvious: to hit the ball out of the field. But what was > the thrower aiming at? Why did all these numbers ke! > ep flashing on to the screen? And why was the drunk next to me talking > like a nuclear physicist? 'Well, eh, Mattingly has forty RBIs and he's > batting three-oh-five, but today he's oh for four.' A few weeks later I got the chance to go to a game at Shea Stadium. On the subway ride to the stadium I conjured up memories of my other brushes with spectator sports. There was the soccer memory, where I was sandwiched somewhere in the middle of ten thousand screaming savages hell-bent on killing a crowd of equal size at the other end of the pitch. In the middle of this lunacy, a soccer game was in progress ... Then there was my Gaelic football memory, where I stood, freezing, at the edge of a wind-swept rain-lashed cow field in the middle of rural Ireland as thirty brave men in shirts and T-shirts slid through cow pats and mud pools for the glory of their town or village. It was a warm summer night when we reached Shea, so there was little chance of Gaelic football-induced pneumonia. But as the crowds poured from the subway I began to get that old soccer hooligan phobia, and the awesome size of Shea Stadium did nothing to alleviate it. We climbed to the third tier, where I was confronted by a strange and wonderful sight. There were seats. Seats everywhere. Better still, the people were sitting them; ordinary people, not skinhead armies but groups of friends, couples, even families with young kids kitted out in their team colors. An attendant showed me to the seat. He wiped it! That night Shea seemed to buzz with good-humored expectation. It felt like some sort of giant outdoor cinema before a good movie. Vendors passed by selling food, soft drinks and beer. Beer! Are they crazy! Okay, the atmosphere was very laid-back, but this was really pushing it. As the sun set, my friend Johnny HAMILL and I sipped our plastic containers of Bud and he explained the rudiments of the game while the loudspeakers belted out SPRINGSTEEN's 'Born in the USA.' 'The pitcher has to get the ball past the batter, but it must be inside the strike zone, ' he explained. 'What decides if it's in?" I asked. 'The umpire.' 'But there's no proof, ' I said. 'The ball doesn't known anything down. It doesn't stay in any net.' 'The umpire decides,' HAMILL declared matter-of factly. What an awful job, I thought. Can you imagine a referee having to make such a call in a soccer match? 'Sorry, England, that ball was just wide of the imaginary goal area.' You could bury the remains of the poor man in a cigarette box. As the game progressed and the lights of Queens twinkled in the distance, I learned about double plays, earned run averages, about stealing a base. I watched Mookie WILSON hit a home run into the stands, watched the ball disappear into a forest of outstretched arms. In the middle of the seventh inning we all stood up and sang ... about peanuts and Cracker Jack and taking me out to the ballpark ... Johnny HAMILL explained how his father, Billy, a Belfast émigré, had grown to love baseball. Irish imagination and baseball grew up together, he said. The history of the game was woven with great Irish names: John McGRAW, Connie MACK, the accursed Walter O'MALLEY who took the Dodgers from Brooklyn. The Mets won in the ninth and as I watched the fans - couples, families, friends - leave the stadium, I realized that baseball was not about tribal warfare or about sport as penance; it was about entertainment. People went to a ball game to enjoy themselves. I had certainly enjoyed myself. As I began to follow the game, I learned more about hit-and-run, curve balls, and balks. Back then I liked the Mets because they were underdogs and the Irish always side with the underdog. In 1986, the Mets took me through a World Series that was as exciting a sports event as I ever saw. I was a complete convert ..." Excerpts, "The Irish In America," Coffey & Golway (Hyperion/NY 1997).

Hello. I am looking for a Mary Welch, age 33, in Boston, Ma around 1850, would you have any information on her? She was living with a Tenneyan family in 1850. Best wishes. Bob

Curtis, I have not found anyone of this name in our Hally family. The earliest I have gotten back was for Michael Hally who put on his declaration of intent in Wisconsin that he was born in 1790 in Ireland. The family lived in Aughvanlomaun townland, Newcastle Parish, County Tipperary but I have not found any type of documentation of where they were before that. Census records indicate that he may have been born any time between 1888 and 1900. Of course there are no baptism records existing for those dates. The Newcastle parish records for baptisms begin in 1815 I believe. There could be a connection because of where both families lived, but I have no clue as how to prove or disprove a connection. Many Hawley names seem to be of English descent rather than Irish where it seems that until they arrived in the US were Hally's. Regards, Sandy -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Curtis Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:58 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Hawley/Hally/Holway/Holloway Neil, I have a John Washington HOLLOWAY b 1739 m Eleanor J. ? had a daughter by the name of Margaret HOLLOWAY b ca-1755 m 1769/70 Killion (William GRIEG/KRIEK) CREEK-he also married Lutillio I. HOLLOWAY. I was wondering in your research if you ever ran across this family. Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Van Alstyne" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Hawley/Hally/Holway/Holloway > I have been looking at some of the posts concerning the Hawley surname. I > have Holloway/Holway ancestors that were also from County Tipperary. My > Holloway/Holway ancestors were from Stonepark, Glen of Aherlow, County > Tipperary, Ireland. I am wondering if there is any connection between Hawley > and Holway? Also, if there is no connection, I am wondering if someone knows > the history and origin of the Holloway/Holway family in Ireland. > > Thanks! > > Neil > > _________________________________________________________________ > Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. > http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtaglin e_donation&FORM=WLMTAG > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Neil, I have a John Washington HOLLOWAY b 1739 m Eleanor J. ? had a daughter by the name of Margaret HOLLOWAY b ca-1755 m 1769/70 Killion (William GRIEG/KRIEK) CREEK-he also married Lutillio I. HOLLOWAY. I was wondering in your research if you ever ran across this family. Curtis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil Van Alstyne" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Hawley/Hally/Holway/Holloway > I have been looking at some of the posts concerning the Hawley surname. I > have Holloway/Holway ancestors that were also from County Tipperary. My > Holloway/Holway ancestors were from Stonepark, Glen of Aherlow, County > Tipperary, Ireland. I am wondering if there is any connection between Hawley > and Holway? Also, if there is no connection, I am wondering if someone knows > the history and origin of the Holloway/Holway family in Ireland. > > Thanks! > > Neil > > _________________________________________________________________ > Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. > http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/07 1:03 PM

Hi. I'm sorry, but I seem to have missed some earlier post about WELCH in Boston. I have a little information about a couple of WELCHs in Boston about 1880. Is this of any interest? Bob

I have been looking at some of the posts concerning the Hawley surname. I have Holloway/Holway ancestors that were also from County Tipperary. My Holloway/Holway ancestors were from Stonepark, Glen of Aherlow, County Tipperary, Ireland. I am wondering if there is any connection between Hawley and Holway? Also, if there is no connection, I am wondering if someone knows the history and origin of the Holloway/Holway family in Ireland. Thanks! Neil _________________________________________________________________ Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG

Dear Michael: Thank you. I can now prove (at least to my satisfaction) that the Ó hAilche mentioned by Ó hUidhrín in the territory of the Éile in what's now north Tipperary are of straight Gaelic descent. Whether or not they're your Ó hAilche in the south of Tipperary is another matter. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael O'Hearn Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:24 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche / O'Hally At the risk of beating this topic to death, I have come upon a document called "The "Danes" on Lough Neigh" by Rev. Dean B. Moody published in the Journal of the Craigavon Historical Society, Vol. 1 No. 2, which I believe answers the question of why Rev. Woulfe decided that the name was derived from Danish, and also why he says that the name means "English". To quote from the doucment: "In 840, we are told the Vikings pillaged Louth from Lough Neagh, led some bishops, priests and sages captive and slew others. The following year they were still on the Lough; but their activities are not recorded. "After this we have no record of Viking activity on Lough Neagh for nearly a century. In A.D. 928, however, a fleet of Vikings, led by the son of Ailche, plundered the islands of Lough Neagh and its borders. This son of Ailche, whose real name was Gormo Gamle, was a very active depredator. We hear of him operating also from the Viking settlement of Limerick. On one occasion he sailed up the Shannon to Lough Ree and from there he destroyed Clonmacnois and all the islands of the lake "and carried off a great spoil between gold and silver and other treasures." " Gormo Gamle (the Old) was the first king of all of Denmark, the name Gorm apparently being from Guthorm meaning "reverer of the gods". The first history of this period was written by Adam of Bremen who says that after Swedes had ruled in Denmark, a certain individual named Cnut won a victory over the Swedes. It is speculated that Cnut's father was Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye, the last king of the former regime in Denmark descended from Norse rulers. Gorm was likely Cnut's son. He married Thyra whom Saxo has as the daughter of Aethelred I of England and probably a Christian. Saxo lists another named Gorm as Gorm the Old's forebear who was called "the Englishman" having been born in that country. But the time frame is such that it would be unlikely that there was another Gorm. Their two children were Cnut and Harald. In the Jamsviking Saga, both sons become Vikings and plunder the coasts of England and Ireland. Cnut is killed in Ireland apparently fulfilling a dream which he had related to Thyra before she agreed to the marriage. Harald becomes king after his father's death and conspires to trap Cnut's only son Gold Harald which he does after Gold Harald returns with much plunder and kills the king of Norway for which he is later executed, thus putting an end to Gorm's royal line. However, Sigurd's daughter became the mother of Ragnhild who was the mother of Harald Fairhair of Norway which would continue the royal line from Cnut's ancestors, if indeed Cnut was Sigurd's son. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

THE ACHILL WOMAN She came up the hill carrying water. She wore a half-buttoned, wool cardigan, a tea-towel round her waist. She pushed the hair out of her eyes with her free hand and put the bucket down. The zinc-music of the handle on the rim tuned the evening. An Easter moon rose. In the next-door field a stream was a fluid sunset; and then, stars. I remember the cold rosiness of her hands. She bent down and blew them like broth. And round her waist, on a white background, in coarse, woven letters, the words "glass cloth." And she was nearly finished for the day. And I was all talk, raw from college -- weekending at a friend's cottage with one suitcase and the set text of the Court poets of the Silver Age. We stayed putting down time until the evening turned cold without warning. She said goodnight and started down the hill. The grass changed from lavender to black. The trees turned back to cold outlines. You could taste frost but nothing now can change the way I went indoors, chilled by the wind and made a fire and took down my book and opened it and failed to comprehend the harmonies of servitude, the grace music gives to flattery and language borrows from ambition -- and how I fell asleep oblivious to the planets clouding over in the skies, the slow decline of the spring moon, the songs crying out their ironies. -- Ms. Eavan BOLAND "Outside History, selected poems 1980-1990," (W.W. Norton 1990)

Sorry, that should read "1828 Tithe Rolls". Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a PS3 game guru. Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games. http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121

Do you have any information regarding Dennis Walsh - siblings? Pat in Bakersfield, CA

Thanks, Raymond. In addition to the baptismal data, Dan Hawley of San Diego has sent me a while ago this from the 1928 Tithe Rolls: Parish of Newcastle Augharanlomaun Townsland: Michail Hally Thomas Hally Boolahallajh Townsland: Michael Hally John Hally David Hally Honoria Hally more Hallys not copied The Michail listed is probably the ancestor who married Kate English. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail

At the risk of beating this topic to death, I have come upon a document called "The "Danes" on Lough Neigh" by Rev. Dean B. Moody published in the Journal of the Craigavon Historical Society, Vol. 1 No. 2, which I believe answers the question of why Rev. Woulfe decided that the name was derived from Danish, and also why he says that the name means "English". To quote from the doucment: "In 840, we are told the Vikings pillaged Louth from Lough Neagh, led some bishops, priests and sages captive and slew others. The following year they were still on the Lough; but their activities are not recorded. "After this we have no record of Viking activity on Lough Neagh for nearly a century. In A.D. 928, however, a fleet of Vikings, led by the son of Ailche, plundered the islands of Lough Neagh and its borders. This son of Ailche, whose real name was Gormo Gamle, was a very active depredator. We hear of him operating also from the Viking settlement of Limerick. On one occasion he sailed up the Shannon to Lough Ree and from there he destroyed Clonmacnois and all the islands of the lake "and carried off a great spoil between gold and silver and other treasures." " Gormo Gamle (the Old) was the first king of all of Denmark, the name Gorm apparently being from Guthorm meaning "reverer of the gods". The first history of this period was written by Adam of Bremen who says that after Swedes had ruled in Denmark, a certain individual named Cnut won a victory over the Swedes. It is speculated that Cnut's father was Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye, the last king of the former regime in Denmark descended from Norse rulers. Gorm was likely Cnut's son. He married Thyra whom Saxo has as the daughter of Aethelred I of England and probably a Christian. Saxo lists another named Gorm as Gorm the Old's forebear who was called "the Englishman" having been born in that country. But the time frame is such that it would be unlikely that there was another Gorm. Their two children were Cnut and Harald. In the Jamsviking Saga, both sons become Vikings and plunder the coasts of England and Ireland. Cnut is killed in Ireland apparently fulfilling a dream which he had related to Thyra before she agreed to the marriage. Harald becomes king after his father's death and conspires to trap Cnut's only son Gold Harald which he does after Gold Harald returns with much plunder and kills the king of Norway for which he is later executed, thus putting an end to Gorm's royal line. However, Sigurd's daughter became the mother of Ragnhild who was the mother of Harald Fairhair of Norway which would continue the royal line from Cnut's ancestors, if indeed Cnut was Sigurd's son. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com

Patricia, My ggrandmother (Rose Ann "Annie" GORMAN MALEY RATHBONE) appointed her father (Philip GORMAN) as guardian of her three children after her husband (Edward MALEY, Jr.) and their father died at a young age (32) so that each year she could and did charge and submit a bill for their school supplies, medical, clothing and etc. She also had married and had 2 children by her second husband. Even when her daughter (Nellie) died she charged the estate of her first husband for burial, doctor and etc. of her death at age 11. When my grandfather (James MALEY) reached the age of 21, what was left in his father's estate it was divided in half and the balance was held for his younger brother (Philip Edward "Spot" MALEY , but the mother still charged for the care of her youngest son. When he reached 21 yrs of age he got the balance of his father's estate that was left. I really have hard feelings towards her for being so greedy (My ggrandmother). Patricia MALEY-CURTIS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:34 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Last Will and Testament and other documents...Ohio > My GrUn James DALY wrote his last W & T, 11 Dec 1842. It was properly witnessed, and then signed by a Judge. It appointed a guardian for his minor child, although his wife was still young and alive, and named this guardian as the Will's executor also. This person's name was Francis Moran. > > On 9 May 1843, James' wife, Ana Maria went before the Court of Common Pleas, and had the Judge who signed the Will, 'affirm' that he was present at the signing of the Will, and that indeed it was James' signature on the handwritten will. This created another paper document. > > My assumptions: James died before 9 May 1843. > My GRgf, Lawrence moved into the household after his brother's death, married Ana Maria, and therefore, there was no need for an execution of the will. I don't find any papers indicating that Francis Moran became a guardian of James and Ana's minor son. > > My questions: What other papers would have been present to show the Will's execution? > > With other estates, I've seen property listings, receipts for lawyer fees, etc. With this one I found nothing. Someone wrote on the front of the will "Closed-up apparently" which leads me to believe they found no paperwork subsequent to the affidavit dated 9 May 1843, either. > > This would be easy to figure out if the minor child's name remained "Reselaer L" as his father gave it to be, but I believe that this child becomes the James, that is shown, on the 1850 Census as the youngest child of Lawrence and Maria. James and Renselaer seem to share the same birth year. > > Why were there no guardianship papers filed? Why was a 'guardian' necessary with the child's mother still alive? > > If anyone can help me clarify this situation, I'd appreciate it. > > Sincerely, > Patricia > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date: 1/16/07 4:36 PM > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date: 1/16/07 4:36 PM

Patrick Rossiter born in 1838 in Co. Wexford. Dennis Walsh born in 1830 in Co. Cork. John Flynn born in Co. Cork? Died in Illinois in 18o75. Thomas Fallon born in 1842 in Ireland. Edward Dunn born June 1, 18o38 in Ireland. Mary Tyman born in Co. Mayo . Nov 10, 1869 Julia Driscoll born in Ireland. Any help appreciated. Thanks

My GrUn James DALY wrote his last W & T, 11 Dec 1842. It was properly witnessed, and then signed by a Judge. It appointed a guardian for his minor child, although his wife was still young and alive, and named this guardian as the Will's executor also. This person's name was Francis Moran. On 9 May 1843, James' wife, Ana Maria went before the Court of Common Pleas, and had the Judge who signed the Will, 'affirm' that he was present at the signing of the Will, and that indeed it was James' signature on the handwritten will. This created another paper document. My assumptions: James died before 9 May 1843. My GRgf, Lawrence moved into the household after his brother's death, married Ana Maria, and therefore, there was no need for an execution of the will. I don't find any papers indicating that Francis Moran became a guardian of James and Ana's minor son. My questions: What other papers would have been present to show the Will's execution? With other estates, I've seen property listings, receipts for lawyer fees, etc. With this one I found nothing. Someone wrote on the front of the will "Closed-up apparently" which leads me to believe they found no paperwork subsequent to the affidavit dated 9 May 1843, either. This would be easy to figure out if the minor child's name remained "Reselaer L" as his father gave it to be, but I believe that this child becomes the James, that is shown, on the 1850 Census as the youngest child of Lawrence and Maria. James and Renselaer seem to share the same birth year. Why were there no guardianship papers filed? Why was a 'guardian' necessary with the child's mother still alive? If anyone can help me clarify this situation, I'd appreciate it. Sincerely, Patricia