Phyllis wrote: QUOTE: <It's true that Y-DNA is "diluted" after so many generations. But depending on the number of markers tested and compared, it is still a pretty good predictor of possible paternal ancestry. It can't "name" a person as a male's paternal ancestor, it only shows who, in his lineage, could have been a common ancestor to another person with the same results as his.> I'm not sure, but this sounds to me like you're suggesting that the Y-DNA is fragile, whereas I thought that the mtDNA is the more fragile one. As it is, the whole Y-DNA sequence is not diluted...it is only certain markers within the sequence that are subject to "rapid" mutation. Scientists know which markers these are, and you can see this information within the Family Tree DNA site. And actually, if you share a common grandfather or great-grandfather, you much more closely related than someone who shares a common ancestor with you from say 1500 years ago. It is also not necessary that you share a same surname...to show you are related. My cousin had a perfect match on 12 markers, which indicated that our common ancestor were thousands of years ago. Recently, he had a perfect match on 25 markers, with a male with whom we don't share a surnames. The probability of "our" common ancestor is 3-13 generations ago (50% probability to a 95% pobability)! Since Family Tree DNA uses an average of 25 years to define a generation, that means, at this point, this person is related to us 75-325 years ago. Not a very long time ago in terms of genetics! And since our GRgf live until 98 or 102 years, you can see how this brings the probability "closer to home" so to speak! Both my cousin and this other man are updating their results to 37 markers...so we'll see how truly close we are related. When one gets results that are so close within a few generations, and the testees don't share the same surname, it can indicate an adoption, or a false paternity. So buyer, beware. If you've had any philandering ancestors, as have I, you may learn more than you want! As it is, I was able to determine by the age of this match, that he didn't belong to my immediate past philandering ancestor. Still, the results are intriguing! Phyllis, it pays to remember when testing DNA, that early "conquerors" would rape and pillage, and divide the spoils. For our genetics discussion...emphasis on rape! Read info on Gheingus Kahn's many genetic relatives, and you may find your Asian link there! Patricia

I began this discussion a few days ago by simply stating scientific facts from memory, facts which were included in newspaper articles for the most part, and which I then took the time to verify over a period of time through my own research, using my own degree of knowledge from biology and other science courses taken at the high school and university levels. The scientists research upon which I based these facts are from world renowned geneticists Bryan Sykes of Oxford and Peter Underhill of Stanford, and in addition to these in the field of genetics, also anthropologist and writer Marija Gimbutas now deceased but formerly on the faculty at University of California, Los Angeles. I respect your interest in the subject and hope you find sufficient scientific corroboration to verify these facts for yourself. I am very open minded and would welcome other scientific facts that may contradict the facts which I presented. Anyone can draw their own conclusions from scientific facts and that is why we have open discussion. Michael O'Hearn --- Elizabeth Tordella <[email protected]> wrote: > You are quite absolutely correct. Geneticists do > study the > identifiable characteristics of genes. However, well > before > geneticists came to be, hematologists provided the > same sort of > information. For example, in the 1970s I had a > hematologist explain > the sources of my blood group and its genotype. > While DNA examination > has grown by leaps and bounds, the story for me > remains essentially > the same. > > My request is that I want to know the credentials of > persons supplying > the information . It aids my investigation to know > that the > information is science based. One reference in this > very interesting > stream of emails referred to the Blood Type diet, a > diet that > nutritionists and other scientists have proved to be > hog wash. > > Thanks so much for the topic. It is absolutely > facinating but this > scientists wants references so that I don't have to > start anew or have > anyone, myself included, go away with information > that is not science > based. > > Beth ____________________________________________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta. http://new.mail.yahoo.com

You are quite absolutely correct. Geneticists do study the identifiable characteristics of genes. However, well before geneticists came to be, hematologists provided the same sort of information. For example, in the 1970s I had a hematologist explain the sources of my blood group and its genotype. While DNA examination has grown by leaps and bounds, the story for me remains essentially the same. My request is that I want to know the credentials of persons supplying the information . It aids my investigation to know that the information is science based. One reference in this very interesting stream of emails referred to the Blood Type diet, a diet that nutritionists and other scientists have proved to be hog wash. Thanks so much for the topic. It is absolutely facinating but this scientists wants references so that I don't have to start anew or have anyone, myself included, go away with information that is not science based. Beth On 1/31/07, Michael O'Hearn <[email protected]> wrote: > The blood type analysis and the DNA analysis are two > different things. The people doing the DNA analysis > are geneticists. They have found different genetic > patterns from identifyable genetic markers from which > they have classified populations throughout the world > into groups called haplogroups based on their genetic > similarity. This is based on the changes occurring in > the genetic structure over time, which is very, very > slow in the case of mtDNA. However, it only works by > tracing back on the male line using the Y-chromosome > DNA from father to grandfather to great-grandfather > etc., or conversely by using the mtDNA from mother to > grandmother to great-grandmother, etc.. Essentially, > we are talking about variations on the same theme > because if you go back far enough, you arrive at a > particular woman with a particular genetic makeup who > becomes the mother of everyone. This can be proven by > science because we know from archeology the time frame > in which homo sapiens first appear, and we know the > approximate rate of variation in mtDNA. Assuming the > hypothesis that there was one original mother, > scientists can calculate when she lived based on the > known approximate rate of variation and the observable > extent of genetic variation throughout the world. > Then, they can compare that with the known time frame > for homo sapiens living on planet earth. If we assume > more than one original mother with different genetic > makeup, we would have to have much more genetic > variation today than what scientists actually observe > in order for it to fit within the time frame. If we > assume more than one mother with the same genetic > makeup, i.e. identical twins, then we also have to > admit that both had the same biological mother which > gets us to the same result of one original mother. > > > > > Michael O'Hearn > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. > Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Elizabeth W. Tordella, MS, RN

I have updated the County Down births on my website by adding a large number of names today, the website search engine will not pick up the new material till Monday, but you can browse through the names just now by going to the County Down births on the Index page of my website,Is there anyone starting a website for County Down? or thinking of starting one, please email me,and the best of luck in your research. Raymond http://www.raymondscountydownwebsite.com

Great information! thanks Michael. One comment I would like to insert here. A mother passes her maternal dna (mtDNA) to all her children, both her sons and daughters. A father passes his paternal dna (Y-DNA) only to his sons. Therefore, their sons have both mtDNA and Y-DNA, while their daughters have only mtDNA. Their sons cannot pass their mtDNA to their children, so their mother's mtDNA stops here for them. (If one of the sons marries, his children will have the mtDNA of THEIR mother.) Their daughters however continue to pass the mtDNA to their children. In this way, mtDNA very seldom mutates or changes, but Y-DNA changes after so many generations. So ... The male can test both his mtDNA (from his mother) to determine his mother's origins, and his Y-DNA (from his father) to determine paternal ancestry. Men get to do both! while a female can only find out about her mother's line. Not fair! It's true that Y-DNA is "diluted" after so many generations. But depending on the number of markers tested and compared, it is still a pretty good predictor of possible paternal ancestry. It can't "name" a person as a male's paternal ancestor, it only shows who, in his lineage, could have been a common ancestor to another person with the same results as his. In other words, if the markers of both James HAGARTY and Charles HAGARTY match, then they do share a common ancestor. The more markers that match between them determine the closeness of the common ancestor within so many generations; for example, do they share a grandfather, or a great-grandfather, or even a paternal ancestor ten generations away? If they are exactly the same, they are most likely brothers, sharing the same father. The female can only have her mtDNA tested. But since mtDNA rarely changes over time, it is a pretty good indicator of where her maternal gr-gr-gr-gr-(etc) grandmother came from --- a tribe or group in a certain geographic location. But if one person compares his/her mtDNA results with another, the tests cannot determine who an ancestor is, or the common ancestor shared, except in the most general sense of both descending from the same tribe. I have a female friend (African-American) who has learned that she and a male friend both descend from the same tribe in Niger, Africa. But through mtDNA, she has learned where her slave ancestress came from and so she now has a sense of her origins. DNA test results are actually a mathematical percentage of being related or sharing a common ancestor and don't mean anything unless you have someone else to compare your test results with. So the higher the number of markers tested and compared, the higher the percentage of actually sharing the same common ancestor, and the closer you come to saying you've found a cousin! It's all so interesting. I can't wait to have my mtDNA tested. Maybe ... I'll find the Asian in the Irish woodpile after all. Cheers! Phyllis >The blood type analysis and the DNA analysis are two >different things. The people doing the DNA analysis >are geneticists. They have found different genetic >patterns from identifyable genetic markers from which >they have classified populations throughout the world >into groups called haplogroups based on their genetic >similarity. This is based on the changes occurring in >the genetic structure over time, which is very, very >slow in the case of mtDNA. However, it only works by >tracing back on the male line using the Y-chromosome >DNA from father to grandfather to great-grandfather >etc., or conversely by using the mtDNA from mother to >grandmother to great-grandmother, etc.. Essentially, >we are talking about variations on the same theme >because if you go back far enough, you arrive at a >particular woman with a particular genetic makeup who >becomes the mother of everyone. This can be proven by >science because we know from archeology the time frame >in which homo sapiens first appear, and we know the >approximate rate of variation in mtDNA. Assuming the >hypothesis that there was one original mother, >scientists can calculate when she lived based on the >known approximate rate of variation and the observable >extent of genetic variation throughout the world. >Then, they can compare that with the known time frame >for homo sapiens living on planet earth. If we assume >more than one original mother with different genetic >makeup, we would have to have much more genetic >variation today than what scientists actually observe >in order for it to fit within the time frame. If we >assume more than one mother with the same genetic >makeup, i.e. identical twins, then we also have to >admit that both had the same biological mother which >gets us to the same result of one original mother. > > > > >Michael O'Hearn >

Now that's a conundrum! >Truth, as always, "lies" somewhere in the middle. > >Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > Thank you for the way you explained it, it has been very helpful and has made things very clear. The thing about (recorded) history, is that many "truths" that we grow up believing happened ... are really, in fact, oral legends that have been passed down from generation to generation in the days before written records. Then along comes writing and these stories get written down. As such they have the tendency to grow larger than life, better than really occurred, or the opposite ... worse than really happened ... etc. So we have to turn to other things like archaelogy, and other cultures that did have written records at the time, to help us along. Even drawings on steles and pillars, rocks, and gravesites, etc can help us determine events. So in the end, we just read all we can, learn all we can, and draw our best educated conclusions. Now DNA ... that seems to be pretty definitive, for genealogical history, as far as evidence goes. I have re-assessed the way I think of what it means to be Irish. I can see that being Irish is to be the product of a number of ethnicities. And here in America, we look upon "Irish" as our ethnicity, or "Italian", or "German", when in reality we are just extensions of all those migrations into Ireland, Germany, Italy, and so on. Maybe one day, (if we last that long) "American" will become an ethnicity too. Fascinating stuff !! Aint genealogy grand. Peace Phyllis

Thank you, Michael. I find this absolutely fascinating. Fran ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael O'Hearn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Thin lips?....What is an Irishman/woman? > Exactly, Fran. But the location on the maternal line > would go back many, many generations. Bryan Sykes > originally found seven distinct groups in Europe with > seven varying types of mtDNA. Today, if I am not > mistaken, the number has increased to nine. What the > test will do is tell you which group the ancestor > belonged to, this being your mother's mother's > mother's mother's. . . etc. . . .mother who at that > time shared identifyable genetic characteristics with > one of those groups. > > > > > Michael O'Hearn > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Phyllis, I have watched your notes with interest, we have decided to have my daughter tested as we think she may also carry the trait. Would never have known about this condition without your post. Our family is mostly red heads and blondes however occassionaly black hair will pop up. My father always told us that family folklore had it that Spaniards from the sinking of the Spanish Armada washed ashore in his part of Ireland and married into the local population, and that's how we get the variation. Regards Colleen -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phyllis Sent: Thursday, 1 February 2007 3:55 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] So What Is An Irishman, Anyway? Okay ... here's the next question. My mother, who is so very Irish, has black hair and blue eyes, with fair skin that freckles. Does this tell you anything about her Irish genetic makeup ... possibly Turkey, Balkan, etc influence on the Irish? I have read that the Basques of the Iberian Peninsula accounts for the black hair. Could the black hair possibly have come from a Mediterranean line such as the Turkish etc areas. Btw, I am told that Mediterranean in the sense of the Alpha Thallasemia Trait encompasses Italy, Northern Africa, the Middle East, and Asia/Oriental. And there are other Mediterranean traits, as well. I may have another of them .. it is being explored by testing at this time. This blows all my concepts of what Irish means (genetically). I always think of Irish as being Scandanavian/Viking in origin. One of our strong lines is DOYLE, which is supposed to be descendants of Vikings. So where am I going wrong on that one? The DOYLES had the blonde hair/blue eyes, our HAGARTY/HEGARTY line had the black hair & blue eyes. Our DOYLES were from Roscommon & Galway, our HAGARTY/HEGARTYs were from Longford, Parish Templemichael ... and still are there, in the Farnagh area of northern Longford. The deceased are buried in the Ballymacormack Cemetery and the living cousins are still farming. Thanks for your information. I am puzzling through all this and I have to tell you, am rethinking the concept of "What Is An Irishman" !! (Besides being the best people in the world, that is!!) If you had to come up with the recipe of that an Irishman is, you could throw in many ingredients, apparently! that would make him a hybrid of the best sort, and hybrids are usually the strongest organisms. Cheers! Phyllis >In the studies mentioned, the closest European >population group would be the one in the Balkans >region. The gene may have been transmitted with the >early neolithic settlers from the Middle East who came >across Anatolia (modern day Turkey). This would be >Mediterranean but not necessarily Oriental or Asian. > > Because of the Mediterranean element, my guess is that it was >originally transmitted from somewhere in Asia perhaps >along a trading route and then through southern >France, southern Germany, or Switzerland. > > > > > >type O is disproportionately prevalent in both Ireland and among the Berbers of North Africa. > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

SNIPPET: "In our village of Treanoughter there were nine houses. We were the first house as you entered by road. If you happened to come across the hills then the first abode that greeted the eye was DURKIN's. Three sisters lived here with their brother. They were all unmarried and they all looked the same age - ancient. The sisters' mode of dress had not changed since the beginning of the century; long, calico-like skirts, usually black with dark, long-sleeved blouses, hand-made of course. Around the house they wore knitted shawls, but for outdoor wear it was a heavy, tasselled shawl that was worn over the head and wrapped around the upper part of the body. Their footwear was also from the past; high, brogue-type boots laced around little buttons, eyelets they called them, that reached midway up the calf of the leg and were hand-made by their brother John. Winnie, Mary and Murriah were their names and Winnie used to wear pieces of heather through her earlobes as earrings. I once asked her why she wore heather and she said that it was supposed to improve the eyesight. Mass was their only outing apart from helping generally around their hill farm, but they lived comfortably and were self-sufficient. John went to town now and again to fairs or with produce. He would pass by our house with his ass and cart ... bade you the time of day, which usually was, 'Good-day to ye,' and went about his business. He never owned or used a bicycle. He said he was not interested in these newfangled contraptions, but people knew the sisters ruled the roost and in their estimation anything new was thought up by the devil to lead people astray. Nevertheless their little home with its thatched roof was like a paradise, sitting high up in the hills with a panoramic view of the countryside. Visitors were not encouraged, especially children. We generally got as far as the half-door and they talked out to us as they busied themselves, polishing and cleaning and cooking. They were like ants, forever going hither and thither, needing approval from each other for everything they did ... They lived in peaceful isolation, untouched by the stresses of the outside world. The only house they visited was their married sister's, halfway down the village. Kate had married Ned MacHUGH late in life ..." -- Excerpt, Mrs. Marrie WALSH's (nee Mary Kate FERGUSON) memoir, "An Irish Country Childhood."

Dear Jerry, Henry, All, I found your postings/threads about the characteristics of various groups in Ireland very interesting and I wonder if you would, might you comment on what you know of MURPHY surname in Connaught, particularly Sligo area. From what I have read (which may or may not be good information) on my surname chart, their were three main Murphy septs, and one was from the area of Sligo, going way way back ---and not related to the other Murphy's mainly in Wexford and other areas where the surname is common. In Sligo, where my ancestors are from, their are only 74 listings in Griffiths, and even fewer in the Sligo/Mayo border, with only three (3) known Murphy families, one being mine. I would like to know more of the history but it is hard to find -- anything that those more informed could comment would be appreciated. I recently had DNA 12 Y done and it came back R1b1, which again from what I have read is a large european Halpotype and does not do much to thin things down. I have been debating have more tests or mtDNA test, but if it will not help thin things down what is the use? I like most cannot spend the time learning DNA testing so it is nice to have someone who knows history AND the DNA to comment on this stuff and I urge you to continue, or perhaps you know of or have web sites where it is spelled out a bit more (without the jargon of scientists, unless absolutel necessary). Thanks, Murph ____________________________________________________ [email protected] wrote: Don't forget to add/check your surname to the Irish-American Mailing List Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/Today's Topics: 1. Re: Thin lips?....What is an Irishman/woman? (Elizabeth Tordella) 2. Re: Thin lips?....What is an Irishman/woman? (Michael O'Hearn) 3. Re: So what is an...... WHAT DO PEOPLE IN ROSCOMMON AND TYRONE LOOK LIKE? ([email protected]) 4. Re: DNA & Mediterranean Traits (Mary Pat) 5. Re: So what is an...... WHAT DO PEOPLE IN ROSCOMMON AND TYRONE LOOK LIKE? (MK Douglas) 6. Re: So What Is An Irishman, Anyway? (Michael O'Hearn) 7. Re: So What Is An Irishman... ARE THE FIR BOLG REAL? ([email protected]) From: "Elizabeth Tordella" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:28:34 -0500 Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Thin lips?....What is an Irishman/woman? This conversation would be helped if an hemotologist could weigh in. Many myths exist about heritage. I want scientific statements. Thanks Beth On 1/31/07, Michael O'Hearn wrote: > Exactly, Fran. But the location on the maternal line > would go back many, many generations. Bryan Sykes > originally found seven distinct groups in Europe with > seven varying types of mtDNA. Today, if I am not > mistaken, the number has increased to nine. What the > test will do is tell you which group the ancestor --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.

Here is an excellent site that show Ireland settlements by dates and maps. Goes from BC to 1840s. http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/iremaps.htm -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

I think this is one of the most interesting discussions we've ever had in the group, I'm learning so much! I'd be interested in hearing something about the people from Clare. I'm also interested in the O'Malley clan, and find very little written about them, other than stories about Grace O'Malley. Can anyone add anything about either topic? Thanks to all for sharing their knowledge, we have some wonderful history in this group! Melody

Hi Phyllis, Ireland was tribal until the 17th century. Government, land, rights, privileges - all based on your tribe. So you didn't usually move away from your tribe. You couldn't easily exist without your tribe. Sometimes whole Irish tribes or clans moved, like the famous migration of the Cianachta to the north of Tír Eoghain or the displacement of several Irish clans/tribes when the Normans came in. But individuals didn't usually move off by themselves. This was considered remarkable. When the Irish left their tribes as missionaries to Europe in the Dark Ages, the Irish called it "White Martyrdom." So Irish tribes, like any other tribes, have territories. And until the growth of Irish cities in the last century or so, most Irish still lived in their tribal territory. It's pretty much accepted now that the Irish Fir Bolg are a branch of the Belgii, the Celtic tribe who gave their name to Belgium and who settled in parts of Britain as commented on by Caesar. There's some good linguistic evidence, and I'm looking forward to the day that genetic evidence will be published. But for now, if you put a Kerryman next to a Belge, you can't tell them apart except one of them talks funny. Linguists tell us that the name Belgii / Bolgii means 'Descendants of (the god) Bolg." Belg / Bolg seems to means something like 'Thunder' or 'Lightning' - something big thunder-goddish like that. So that makes the name Belgii / Bolgii mean 'Descendants of (the god) Thunder/Lightning." A good name for a warrior tribe. In our oldest (pagan) genealogies, it's indisputable that Bolg is an individual identified as a Sidh. In other words, a god. But only a couple of hundred years later in our Christian Irish tradition, Fir Bolg is claimed to mean "Men of Bags" and our Christian Irish tradition tells a ridiculous story about how they got their name as slaves digging dirt and putting it into bags in Greece. So what happened? Well, Irish myth was mostly recorded by Christian monks. And Christian monks didn't want to record propaganda for the old, pagan faith, so they changed some names and told some tall tales in order to either erase or denigrate the old religion. "Descendants of Thunder" became slaves putting dirt in bags. Talk about propaganda. Until the 17th century, certain clans had the hereditary right to engage in Seanchas as a profession. Seanchas until the 17th century was the Irish field of study which combined what we would now call law, history, and genealogy. In the Gaelic mindset, in the Gaelic worldview, those are all one thing, totally indivisible. You can't isolate an individual from his/her law, history, and genealogy. They don't exist apart. Part of the same mindset of tribes moving together, rather than as individuals. So, after the equivalent of a good high school education, an individual belonging to one of these clans would go to his/her clan's secular school of Seanchas (what we would call a college) for 12-14 years in order to memorize all of the law/history/genealogy of the Gaeil and thereby become a Seanchadh (legal expert / historian / genealogist). That was just to qualify at the basic level. To become famous or more marketable, he/she would then go on to further study at other clans' schools. It was the Seanchadh's obligation to know and be able to recite, at the drop of a hat, from memory, the full genealogy back to Adam (in the Christian period) of every single Saor family of Ireland. Saor means 'free', not tribute-paying. And it was their obligation to refuse to recite and refuse to record the genealogy of every single Daor ('unfree', tribute-paying) family of Ireland. In other words, they had to know every Irish family's genealogical background. Period. No exaggeration. No kidding around. Otherwise, they were thrown out of the union. Our Seanchas tradition doesn't identify historic families of Tuatha Dé Danann (Peoples of the Goddess Danu). Why not? Because they're mythological. In the Book of the Invasions, they become the Sidh and go into the sidh-mounds. Our Seanchas tradition doesn't identify historic families of Fomhóraigh (called Fomorians in English). Why not? Because they're mythological. Demons with one hand and one leg and one eye, sometimes growing out of their backs. But our Seanchas does identify historic families of Fir Bolg. No big deal. They're real, just like the Laighin, the Connachta, the Eoghanacht, etc.. We know who they are. We know where they live. They're all over the place. We run into them every day. We can have them over to watch the Superbowl. Bring the chips. No big deal. In the late 19th century, we had a bunch of romantics who claimed that all Irish mythology was true. In the late 20th century, we had a bunch of idiots who claimed that no Irish history was true. Truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phyllis Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] So What Is An Irishman, Anyway? This makes so much more sense! I guess it's like, what is an American??? well ... we are people born in America, but with ethnic backgrounds from all over. still, weren't the migrations so long ago, that the different ethnic mixes by now have blended into ... an Irishman? with his/her own unique genetic makeup? America has only been America for 221 years. I appreciate very much the information, and especially about the Gaels and Celts. We have the same in America in the American Indian tribes, different tribes but in the same linguistic group. Now ... about the Fir Bolgs ... are they historical, or are they mythological? I thought they were mythological. But .. if your wife is a Fir Bolg ... she's gotta be real! So I would like to learn about Fir Bolgs. Just the name, is intriguiging. Thanks! Phyllis >Hi Phyllis, > >We have a couple of families, like your Doyles who are >Scandinavian/Viking in origin. We also have a number of families who >are Normans, who in turn were originally Danes. But most Irish >families are Irish, not Viking nor Norman. > >Remember that the Irish aren't a race, but a nation made up of a number >of different migrations. We had (and still have) tribes of tall pale >blonds (Leinster), short freckled red-heads, middle height and tall >sandy blond/brunettes (Connacht), short stocky barrel-chested >dark-complexioned brunettes (west Cork), tall big-boned Fir Bolg with >jet black hair (Kerry), just to name a few. In addition to the Irish >who have been in Ireland since (or before) the last ice age, we had >identifiable immigrations by Celtic tribes like the Brigantes (the >Gorman family is part of this tribe), the Menapii (the Monaghans seem >to descend from these), the Belgii (Fir Bolg in Irish, including my >wife), etc. Then we had later migrations/invasions/settlements by >Vikings (your Doyles) and Normans (Burkes, Fitzgeralds, Butlers, etc.), >all of whom eventually became Irish-speaking. So eventually, all these >people became Celts, which is a linguistic group (i.e., Celtic-speaking), not a racial/genetic group. > >I would suggest that today an Irishman/Irishwoman is a person born in >Ireland who wants to be called an Irishman/Irishwoman. (Some people in the >north don't want to be called Irish.) In contrast, a Gael in the Irish >language is a Gaelic speaker, no matter where born. A Gael can be of >any ethnicity and of any citizenship. I'm a Gael even though I was born and >raised in America. I have friends who are Gaeil who have never been to >Ireland. > >Hope that's helpful. > >Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Fran, Have never been in Co. Roscommon or Co. Tyrone so can't tell you what they look like. But can tell you that Roscommon is the headquarters of the Uí Bhriúin Aí (the Uí Bhriúin on the plain of Aí) who are a branch of the Uí Bhriúin (descendants of Brion son of Eochu Mugmheadhon - CAUTION - THESE ARE NOT, REPEAT NOT, THE O'BRIENS) who are a branch of the Connachta (descendants of the god Conn) who are a branch of the Féni ('ourselves'? 'noble people'? - too old a name to know for sure. By this point, as you see by the Connachta, we're way back into the pre-Christian period.). Meanwhile, Co. Tyrone (Tír Eoghain or 'country of Eoghan' in Irish) is the headquarters of the Cineál Eoghain ('kinship of Eoghan') of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill of the North) of the Uí Néill (the descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages, also a son of Eochu Mugmheadhon) of the Connachta of the Féni. But I'm Cineál Chonaill ('kinship of Conall') on my father's mother's side which is a branch of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt of the Uí Néill of the Connachta of the Féni. And I descend from the Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne (Uí Fhiachrach of the plain of Aidhne) on my mother's side which is a branch of the Uí Fhiachrach (descendants of Fiachra, son of Eochu Mughmheadhon) of the Connachta of the Féni. So, if I were to wildly extrapolate from what I look like, I'd say the Uí Bhriúin Aí in Co. Roscommon and the Cineál Eoghain in Co. Tyrone would have sandy brown to brown hair sometimes with a tint of red, blue eyes, about 6 foot tall, solid bone structure but not as heavy as the Kerryman, and unlike the pure white skin of the black-haired Kerryman, a light skin which can go pretty darn brown in summer if careful, but will burn badly if not careful. But like I say, I've never been to Roscommon or Tyrone, so this is pure guess. Also, these are not the only tribes in Co. Roscommon and Co. Tyrone, just the dominant tribes since the 5th-7th centuries AD. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry _____ From: Fran Weeks [ Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: So what is an...... Hi Jerry, Do you have anything to say about those from County Roscommon or County Tyrone? I found your information very interesting and based upon pictures of my Kerry people - quite accurate. Thanks. Fran

Hey, I believe we all came from a common mother.. Her name was Eve. Read Genesis in your Bible. I have believed that for as long as I remember. Must be the fact that my parents took me to church.

This conversation would be helped if an hemotologist could weigh in. Many myths exist about heritage. I want scientific statements. Thanks Beth On 1/31/07, Michael O'Hearn <[email protected]> wrote: > Exactly, Fran. But the location on the maternal line > would go back many, many generations. Bryan Sykes > originally found seven distinct groups in Europe with > seven varying types of mtDNA. Today, if I am not > mistaken, the number has increased to nine. What the > test will do is tell you which group the ancestor > belonged to, this being your mother's mother's > mother's mother's. . . etc. . . .mother who at that > time shared identifyable genetic characteristics with > one of those groups. > > > > > Michael O'Hearn > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Never miss an email again! > Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Elizabeth W. Tordella, MS, RN

Amazing, our Murphy line are all B+ and heavily acidic .. MaryPat ===================== From: [email protected] Date: 2007/01/30 Tue AM 09:40:59 CST To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] DNA & Mediterranean Traits > I guess I'm looking for the Asian in the Irish woodpile. As am I, Phyllis. My mother, grandmother, and I all have B+ blood another trait that shouldn't show up, but rarely, in an Irish line. Melody -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Phyllis <[email protected]> > I spelled it wrong! It is Alpha Thallasemia Trait ... got my ss's and > ll's reversed on that one!!!!! > > it showed up on some blood tests that were run, looking for something > else. > > What it is, my red blood cells are always smaller than normal, and so > consequently I run slightly anemic. But I am not anemic ... just low on > iron because the cells are smaller than they should be, so each cell > carries less hemoglobin than a larger cell would, therefore less > hemoglobin/iron shows up on the blood tests. > > My system makes more than the normal number of red blood cells, however, > to try to compensate. So I have the smaller cells, more of them, and am > slightly anemic. There are two other tests that are always out of range > on the low end, something like MCV (MVC?) and MCVH (MVCH?) ... not sure > on that. would have to go look it up on the test results and I'm being > lazy right now. :-P > > But see, I am blonde, green eyed ... had the white blonde hair into my > thirties ... born a towhead. dunno where the Mediterranean/Asian > ancestor is. However if the DNA tests results posted here for MtDNA are > correct then that would explain it. > > What I have is not a disease, it's just a blood trait just as sickle > cell is. Although there are three other kinds of Alpha-Thallasemia, in > varying degrees of severity. THe problem would be if my children had > the trait and were to marry someone who is also carrying the trait, and > since it is recessive .. then their children would have all kinds of > problems. > > If you do a google on it you can read about it. But spell it the way I > have it now! hahaha > > What I am wondering about now, is would such a trait as a > Mediterranean/Oriental/Asian trait show up in the Irish, because of the > ancestry from so long ago? I do know that maternal DNA (MtDNA) > changes/mutates only once in about a million or so years, let's say, as > it is passed down the maternal line. So wouldn't it have to be > something I inherited from my maternal line? (That would only be Irish, > French, and a little bit of German from Saxony. On my paternal side it > is Ostfrisian-German (with a little bit of Dutch in there), Swiss, and > English.) > > Or could my father have passed this mediterranean trait to me. I guess > I'm looking for the Asian in the Irish woodpile. > > Phyllis > > > >Dear Phyllis, > > > >If it is not too personal, what exactly is the Alpha Thessalonia Trait. I > >am also very interested in this subject. > > > >Regards, > >Colleen > > > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This ws rather fun. My ggrandparents were from Galway, Mayo, Waterford, Antrim, and --tada--Roscommon. Those who favormy mother--the Roscommon side--are very fair skinned, blue eyed, and sandy haired in varying depths--some have a tinge more red than others. Course today, I have more of a tinge of red than I did 30 years ago. Oh, and yes, I daren't go into the sun without taking quite a bit of care. Kathleen [email protected] wrote: Hi Fran, Have never been in Co. Roscommon or Co. Tyrone so can't tell you what they look like. But can tell you that Roscommon is the headquarters of the Uí Bhriúin Aí (the Uí Bhriúin on the plain of Aí) who are a branch of the Uí Bhriúin (descendants of Brion son of Eochu Mugmheadhon - CAUTION - THESE ARE NOT, REPEAT NOT, THE O'BRIENS) who are a branch of the Connachta (descendants of the god Conn) who are a branch of the Féni ('ourselves'? 'noble people'? - too old a name to know for sure. By this point, as you see by the Connachta, we're way back into the pre-Christian period.). Meanwhile, Co. Tyrone (Tír Eoghain or 'country of Eoghan' in Irish) is the headquarters of the Cineál Eoghain ('kinship of Eoghan') of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt (Uí Néill of the North) of the Uí Néill (the descendants of Niall of the Nine Hostages, also a son of Eochu Mugmheadhon) of the Connachta of the Féni. But I'm Cineál Chonaill ('kinship of Conall') on my father's mother's side which is a branch of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt of the Uí Néill of the Connachta of the Féni. And I descend from the Uí Fhiachrach Aidhne (Uí Fhiachrach of the plain of Aidhne) on my mother's side which is a branch of the Uí Fhiachrach (descendants of Fiachra, son of Eochu Mughmheadhon) of the Connachta of the Féni. So, if I were to wildly extrapolate from what I look like, I'd say the Uí Bhriúin Aí in Co. Roscommon and the Cineál Eoghain in Co. Tyrone would have sandy brown to brown hair sometimes with a tint of red, blue eyes, about 6 foot tall, solid bone structure but not as heavy as the Kerryman, and unlike the pure white skin of the black-haired Kerryman, a light skin which can go pretty darn brown in summer if careful, but will burn badly if not careful. But like I say, I've never been to Roscommon or Tyrone, so this is pure guess. Also, these are not the only tribes in Co. Roscommon and Co. Tyrone, just the dominant tribes since the 5th-7th centuries AD. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry _____ From: Fran Weeks [ Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:23 PM To: [email protected] Subject: So what is an...... Hi Jerry, Do you have anything to say about those from County Roscommon or County Tyrone? I found your information very interesting and based upon pictures of my Kerry people - quite accurate. Thanks. Fran ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

is gach fhocail fir- wel said!

Phyllis, Fir Bolg is the name of an historical people in Ireland and means "men of Bolg", which in the Celtic language probably means people of brightness, although other interpretations have been suggested. Their name may derive from what the Belgae in Europe, a Celtic people in Ceasar's time. Also, the Baltic people may take their name from a common derivitive probably referring to brightness, and another Celtic derivative in Ireland being Falgi from which the name Offaly derives as the place where they lived in Ireland. Our English word "refulgent" comes from the same derivative meaning brightness. Historically, we don't know whether modern day Celts share any common inherited genetic traits with the Celts of long ago in central Europe. Another possibility is that Celtic Indo-European culture spread mainly through assimilation across western Europe. One theory is that the Celts of Leinster called the Laigin and their relatives in Britain and Brittany spread from southeastern Gaul around Lyon, whereas the Gaelic Celts who arrived later came from Aquitaine in southwestern Gaul or possibly Switzerland and came to Ireland about the time of Caesar. The Belgae or Fir Bolg people were of the Erainn and most likely arrived at an earlier period perhaps in several waves from Britain. In Europe of Caesar's time the Belgae of northwestern Gaul were believed to be mainly Germanic although preserving their Celtic name and customs, just as many of the people of Belgium today are Flemish and speak a variation of Frankish which is of course Germanic and not Celtic. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail