We hate him for 'massacring' the people of Drogheda. But it's history that should be on trial, according to one local study, says WILLIE DILLON. It was Drogheda's own September 11 more than three and a half centuries ago. When Oliver Cromwell led his forces through a breach in the town walls on that date in 1649, he couldn't have imagined that the blood on his sword would still be stirring deep emotions today. History has a habit of not going away, as we know to our cost in this country. It has defined and divided us. But what happens when our history is shown to be unreliable? How many of our certainties have had the inconvenient edges shorn off and the basic facts changed to suit a political viewpoint many years later? History and myth have always been close companions; indeed, one is frequently mistaken for the other. Myth is a powerful tool that has been used to shape nations. It can provide a bulwark against the complexities of life. Its simplicities make it easier for us to see others as different to ourselves and to hate them. It is the perfect example of not letting the facts get in the way of a good story. Objective historical fact tends to be highly complicated and hard to digest, and can often reveal things about our heroes and our enemies that we don't feel very comfortable with. Exactly what Cromwell did during his infamous three days in Drogheda has been the subject of intense debate ever since a local historian challenged the popular view in a provocative book, Cromwell: An Honourable Enemy. The work was followed by a certain amount of public outrage when the author put Cromwell's death mask on display. A similar plan to put his sword on show has been scrapped after further complaints. In his book, Tom Reilly presents a radically different picture of what happened when Cromwell's army seized the town. He argues that the notorious massacre of 3,000 innocent townspeople almost certainly never took place. The popular legend is that barely a dozen local people survived. Based on his meticulous examination of evidence from the time, he concluded that no civilians were killed. Three thousand people were systematically put to the sword by Cromwell's parliamentarian forces. But these, he says, were all armed combatants, members of a royalist army that had taken the town just two months previously. The locals were mere onlookers at a battle that was in reality part of the English civil war that raged through the 1640s. Control of the town had swung between the parliamentarians and forces loyal to the ultimately beheaded King Charles I. He says Cromwell could simply have strolled into Drogheda at any time in the previous two years when his side was in occupancy. The locals appeared to have "no problem whatsoever" with Cromwell's forces and no significant incidents were recorded. The municipal records suggest life in the town continued as normal after the battle. "Thousands of Drogheda's inhabitants are documented as being alive during the 1650s." Cromwell, says Reilly, was sticking to the accepted rules of war although the killing was on a far greater scale than anything he had previously ordered. Cromwell's chief adversary in Ireland mentions no civilian deaths in hundreds of letters and reports written during the campaign. "Cromwell is nowhere on record as ever having ordered the deaths of civilians in any battle in his life," says the historian. He says no account of any civilian deaths at Drogheda appears in any report written before 1660, when the monarchy was restored. From then on, 'open season' was declared on the vanquished parliamentarians. "Everything to do with the English republic and all things Cromwellian were viciously ripped apart, torn to shreds and reinvented in order to denounce what the royalists called the despotic English republic." He says the story of the alleged massacre of civilians was subsequently adopted in the 19th century by Father Denis Murphy, a nationalist priest who used it to further the political aims of the time. That undisputed version of events ultimately found its way into the nation's school books. Reilly says his views have not been seriously challenged by other historians. Opposition to the Cromwell relics being shown in Drogheda is led by Frank Godfrey, an independent councillor who says he is backed by hundreds of local people. He vigorously disputes Reilly's version of events. He accuses the historian of having a 'fixation' with Cromwell and trying to promote 'the Cromwellian cause' in Ireland. He says Reilly is distorting and trying to rewrite history, tampering with the truth and trying to "paint a glossy picture" of what Cromwell did in Ireland. Far from being an honourable enemy, Cromwell was a bloody tyrant who slaughtered innocent people, he argues. He believes there should be a memorial to honour "the martyrs of Drogheda" at the spot where Cromwell broke through. By a curious quirk, this is on the site of Drogheda Heritage Centre, where the sword was to have gone on display. Reilly is one of its directors. Councillor Godfrey admits he can't say exactly how many local people were killed by Cromwell, but he has no doubt the figure ran into hundreds, if not thousands. "Even when we were going to school there was so much hatred of Cromwell, and it's still there to this day. Ninety-five percent of the people wouldn't want his death mask or sword coming back here. It might sound like an awful long time ago, but it's not that long ago. "If they brought Hitler's death mask to a Jewish town in Israel, how would the people feel about it? We're no different here. Feelings are running high still here in Drogheda. People have long memories, whether you like it or not." The streets of Drogheda were said to have run red with the blood of Cromwell's victims. Scarlet Street was supposedly named because of the scale of the bloodshed there. Reilly says the existing Scarlet Street would have been outside the town walls in 1649, however, some distance from the slaughter. An incident from so long ago bears no relation to today's politics, religion or economics, according to the historian. Of Godfrey he says: "He should be in the Guinness Book of Records for still holding a 353-year-old grudge." So what can we believe? John A Murphy, emeritus professor of Irish history at University College Cork, says he is loath to comment on a historical episode in which he has not been a primary investigator. But he says few historical personalities have made such a deep impact on Irish tradition as Cromwell; therefore he can understand the strong reaction. But he 'applauds' Reilly for contributing to the debate. "It's a legitimate area for discussion. It shows how deep-rooted our prejudices are that people go ape when they are told that maybe Cromwell wasn't as bad as he was made out to be." Professor Murphy says we shouldn't believe something because we learnt it at school. Much of the history the present generation of Irish adults was given was "palpably untrue", he says. "What they were taught, I'd say up to 20 or 30 years ago, was propaganda." He says things have improved vastly since then, as the curriculum has shifted from "arid political nationalism and rancorous generalisations about the past" to a more fruitful and enriching view of ourselves. This would seem to tally with James Joyce's definition of history as "a nightmare from which we are trying to awaken". Not so, says Professor Murphy. "That's a famous quotation in a literary context. But it has always seemed to me to smack of smart-assery. It's one of these nice phrases which you coin irrespective of whether they mean anything or not." He believes a more relevant quote is one from Michael Oakshot, an English philosopher: "History is what the evidence compels us to believe." Cromwell's sword currently resides at the Royal Armouries Museum in Leeds. Some people in Drogheda hope it will be compelled to remain there for a long time to come. - Willie Dillon
Your points taken and understood, however,many perished as they followed their former landlords on foot out into the west. Many more who were not nobility were forced to settle in places that until other minor islands off the coast of Conamara... **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all indigeneous R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers behind if they lacked the means to follow Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than 5% in "planted" Ulster slan agus beannacht ----- Original Message ----- From: <TiTraLi@aol.com> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >Gaeltacht. > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as > maintained in > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they > are > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- > > The Dream lives on! > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
well said! **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Good point--I suspect my folk were abandonned rather than banished--might be wrong though. Regardless, Cromwell was a bit "one sided." Kathleen
Stuart--I enjoy your edginess! kathleen
However.. be careful to order a half and half not a B and T in the odd chance of encountering a Gael behind the bar. :) While admittedly the Tans left something to be desired in terms of civility it was the so called "Auxiliary Cadets", who arrived a few months after the Tans, who were most detested and feared by the populace and Oglaigh na h-Eireann. le Dea-mhein ----- Original Message ----- From: <JackLangton@aol.com> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell > And in 100 years or so the Black and Tans will have morphed into > happy-go-lucky tourists, out for a fight or a frolic, instead of murderous > thugs. Maybe > not that long, right now you can purchase in Dublin a Black and Tan drink > or > a Ben&Jerry Black and Tan flavor of ice cream. > > Jack Langton > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
And in 100 years or so the Black and Tans will have morphed into happy-go-lucky tourists, out for a fight or a frolic, instead of murderous thugs. Maybe not that long, right now you can purchase in Dublin a Black and Tan drink or a Ben&Jerry Black and Tan flavor of ice cream. Jack Langton **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
OK--so the friars that Cromwell, in his own words, delighted in killing were in the royalist army? I was so unaware of that. Reilly is not an historian, he is a newpaper columnist with an ax to grind. And just who published his book? Oh, and of course the Penal Laws never ever existed. kathleen
SNIPPET: Parliamentary forces had already landed in Ireland in 1647, but it was the arrival on August 15, 1649, of 20,000 troops under Oliver CROMWELL, Lord Lieutenant General of the Parliament of England, that inaugurated a full-scale repression of Ireland. His purpose was unambiguous: to avenge the alleged massacres of 1641, repress Catholicism, and fortify Ireland against possible foreign invasion. He believe his mission to "carry on the great work against the barbarous Irish" was ordained by God. It was this mind-set that justified the brutality that followed. In one instance, when the town of Drogheda (Louth) refused to surrender to CROMWELL in September 1649, CROMWELL's soldiers stormed the city and put more than 3,000 people, including civilian women and children, to the sword. Some weeks later, the town of Wexford did surrender but apparently not fast enough to suit CROMWELL, and his soldiers slaughtered 2,000 civilians. This campaign of terror had its desired effect, as most towns quickly surrendered to CROMWELL's forces. By the early 1650s, virtually all of Ireland had been conquered. The toll on human life was extraordinary, even by modern standards. Of Ireland's 1641 population of 1,448,000, some 616,000 had died by 1652. Of those the great majority (504,000) were native Irish, mostly Catholic. Settlers and troops constituted the remaining dead (112,000). Thousands of surviving Irish rebels were transported to a life of slavery in the West Indies. Irish agriculture and livestock were devastated. "I am persuaded," wrote CROMWELL, "that this is a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches." In addition to the death and destruction visited by CROMWELL and his lieutenants, Ireland under parliamentary rule experienced another massive transfer of property from the Catholic native Irish to Protestant English settler. Under the 1652 to 1653 Acts of Settlement, most of Ireland's major Catholic landowners in the east were forced to surrender their property (under penalty of death) and accept lesser holdings in the remote barren reaches of the province of Connacht. This policy, dubbed "To Hell or Connacht" by the Irish, led to a mass exodus of Irish Catholics to the lesser lands in the west of Ireland. Many never made it. Some 11 million acres of confiscated land was turned over to English "adventurers" (settlers) and soldiers. By 1660, Protestants would own 78 percent of that land in Ireland and the percentage was rising. CROMWELL died in 1658, and two years later CHARLES I's son CHARLES II, was restored to the throne. Many Catholics viewed this development with hope. CHARLES II had a Catholic wife and they hoped he would remember his loyalty the Irish showed his father during the struggles of the 1640s. Unfortunately, what CHARLES II did remember about the 1640s was that his father had been beheaded. He was unwilling to make any move that might appear too solicitous of the Irish, though some families were restored to their land and the murderous persecution of priests diminished. Irish Catholics found their man in CHARLES II's son, JAMES II, who took the throne in 1685. JAMES II was a Catholic and made it clear that he planned to restore Catholics in Ireland to the power and property they had once enjoyed -- in short, to remake Ireland as a Catholic kingdom. He dispatched Richard TALBOT, a Catholic born in Dublin, to serve as lieutenant general of the Irish army TALBOT quickly replaced Protestant army officers, sheriffs, judge, and magistrates with Catholics. These moves alarmed Protestants in England and Ireland and led to them to depose JAMES II in 1688. May 20, 1998: "New York Times" Columnist Maureen DOWD wrote: "When I first moved to New York, I called my mother to tell her I was going to stay in a residential hotel called the Oliver Cromwell. There was a long pause, then tearful anger. "He encouraged his soldiers to throw babies up in the air and impale them on their swords as they came down," she snapped. I found another hotel. In Irish time, 1651 and 1981 were only moments apart." -- Excerpts, "1001 Things Everyone Should Know About Irish American History," Edward. T. O'DONNELL (Broadway Books NY/2002). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean R." <jeanrice@cet.com> To: <IRISH-AMERICAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Oliver CROMWELL's Letter Describing Attack on Drogheda (Louth) 1649 <snip>
I would like to declare open warfare on the seventeenth century experts of Ireland please, or perhaps even challenge them to a duel. Cheers. Thanks Please allow me to explain. A primary school teacher somewhere in Ireland faces a classroom full of eleven-year-olds. The teacher reaches for the textbook Earthlink 5th Class published by Folens in 2004. (Earthlink is a textbook series from junior infants to sixth class that incorporates the integrated approach outlined by the primary school syllabus on the Irish school curriculum.) On page 87 the following words are printed: 'Cromwell captured Drogheda. About 3,000 men, women and children were killed.' That's the reason for my declaration of war. There's no other. Just that. Cromwell has remained the historian's Hamlet, to be re-interpreted by each succeeding generation, as the founder of liberty or military dictator, the scourge of tyrants, or tyrant himself, the champion of parliament or its betrayer, God's executioner or God's reformer. In Ireland the very name Cromwell has become shorthand for a complex set of attitudes, all resting not so much on the man himself, but on him being symbolic of a defining moment of Irish history. In the demonology of that history, pride of place, without a shadow of a doubt, goes to Cromwell. Because he left such a bitterly divisive legacy, he also left an equally divisive historiography. Primarily as a result of the work of nineteenth century nationalists (notably John Prendergast and Fr Denis Murphy), Cromwell has for most Irish people become the personification of barbarity, religious intolerance and English conquest. He has been accused of being a war criminal and of being an early ethnic cleanser. They recount tales of thousands of defenceless Irish citizens, men, women and children, all put to the sword at the hands of "Old Ironsides" and his men during their scorched earth campaign. In actual fact Cromwell was framed. Cromwell – An Honourable Enemy first saw the light of day in 1999 and has been largely dismissed by most scholars. Although some academics welcomed it with a certain ambivalence, it has certainly not been adopted by many – although it has been received more generously outside Ireland. Yet – and this is most remarkable – it has never been seriously challenged by any historian anywhere. Michael O Siochru leads the charge of protesters. Yet his recently published God's Executioner falls abysmally short of presenting a serious challenge to Honourable Enemy. Amazingly he engages in wild speculation. I'm still shocked by his incredible assertions on this matter, with nothing solid whatsoever to back it up. The facts are there for all to see. This is not rocket science. In fact one wonders at the erudite author's motivation in making such assiduous efforts to interpret the well-known and oft-quoted contemporary sources in such an inequitable, some might say biased, way. Instead, Ó Siochrú and his ilk should be running to the printing presses to (at least) temper the school textbooks in order that they promulgate a balanced view of the events. The promotional literature accompanying the book highlights the fact that the same author has scripted the two-part documentary series on Irish television station RTE this September about Cromwell in Ireland. In this book he has gone out on a limb, put his reputation on the line so to speak, and if this is the best shot he can take to justify a civilian massacre on a large scale, it looks like he will live to regret it. Several experts of the period come to mind who might be inclined to take a different, more even-handed, view of the available evidence. Of course civilians could have got caught in the crossfire in Drogheda and Wexford, killed as a result of collateral damage, etc. etc. etc. Well, duh! But there was no policy to kill the innocent, nor is there any concrete evidence that suggests such a thing occurred. Historians have taken a wide birth of my book because I have entered their world and proved them (generations of academics) wrong. I have in fact taught my granny how to suck eggs. First they castigated me, then they dismissed me, then some of them (Taidgh O Hannrachain) even said they said that they knew this all along – it was nothing new!!!. If they knew this all along, then why in the name of all that is holy are we still delivering nineteenth century propaganda to children in the 21st century? The historian James Graham Leyburn has said of Cromwell's campaign in Ireland: 'What Cromwell did deserves to be ranked with the horrors perpetrated by Gengis Khan. His pacification of Ireland has left scars on that country which have never been forgotten or forgiven.' Oliver Cromwell is completely innocent of killing the ordinary unarmed people of Ireland and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. But before I finish, here's the thing…ask yourself this question…if the facts are open to interpretation (which at the very least they most certainly are) then why do people like O'Siochru, Jason McElligott, Padraig Lenehan etc not take a balanced view? Contrast this with John Morrill who agrees with me that no civilians died in cold blood at Drogheda but believes some may well have got caught in the crossfire. And the difference? He's English. No inherent bias. I rest my case. Tom Reilly
Cromwell was a soldier of his time. If you study his taking of towns in England, you'll see that he treated captured English towns in the same fashion that he treated Irish towns. In fact, by European norms of that time, Cromwell was a quite reserved and humane victor. There is always a tendancy to judge past acts by modern standards. Kind regards, Stuart www.irelandandirish.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean R." <jeanrice@cet.com> To: <IRISH-AMERICAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 10:49 PM Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Oliver CROMWELL's Letter Describing Attack on Drogheda(Louth) 1649 > Oliver CROMWELL's letter to Hon. Wm. LENTHALL, Speaker of Parliament of > England, regarding the attack at Drogheda, Co. Louth -- > > Dublin, 17th September 1649: > > SIR, > > Upon Tuesday the 10th of this instant, about five o'clock in the evening, > we > began the Storm: and after some hot dispute we entered, about seven or > eight > hundred men; the Enemy disputing it very stiffly with us. And indeed, > through the advantages of the place, and the courage God was pleased to > give > the defenders, our men were forced to retreat quite out of the breach, not > without some considerable loss; Colonel CASTLE being shot in the head, > whereof he presently died; and divers officers and soldiers doing their > duty > killed and wounded. There was a Tenalia to flanker the south Wall of the > Town, between Duleek Gate and the corner Tower before mention; -- which > our > men entered, wherein they found some forty or fifty of the Enemy, which > they > put to the sword. And this 'Tenalia' they held: but it being without the > Wall, and the sally-port through the Wall into that Tenalia being choked > up > with some of the Enemy which were killed in it, it proved of no use for an > entrance into the Town that way. > > Although our men that stormed the breaches were forced to recoil, as is > before expressed; yet, being encouraged to recover their loss, they made a > second attempt: wherein God was pleased so to animate them that they got > ground of the Enemy, and by the Goodness of God, forced him to quit his > entrenchments. And after a very hot dispute, the Enemy having both horse > and > foot, and we only foot, within the Wall -- they gave ground, and our men > became masters both of their retrenchments and 'of'' the Church; which > indeed, although they made our entrance the more difficult, yet they > provided of excellent use to us; so that the Enemy could not 'now' annoy > us > with their horse, but thereby we had advantage to make good the ground, > that > so we might let in our own horse; which accordingly was done, though with > much difficulty. > > Divers of the Enemy retreated into the Mill-Mount: a place very strong and > of difficult access; being exceedingly high, having a good graft, and > strongly palisadoed. The Governor, Sir Arthur ASHTON, and divers > considerable Officers being there, our men getting up to them, were > ordered > by me to put them all to the sword. And indeed, being in the heat of > action, > I forbade them to spare any that were in arms in the Town: and, I think, > that night they put to the sword about 2,000 men: -- divers of the > officers > and soldiers being fled over the Bridge into the other part of the Town, > where about 100 of them possessed St. Peter's Church-steeple, some the > west > Gate, and others a strong Round Tower next the Gate called St. Sunday's. > These being summoned to yield to mercy, refused. Whereupon I ordered the > steeple of St. Peter's Church to be fired, when one of them was heard to > say > in the midst of the flames: "God damn me, God confound me; I burn, I > burn." > > The next day, the other two Towers were summoned; in one of which was > about > six or seven score; but they refused to yield themselves: and we knowing > that hunger must compel them, set only good guards to secure them from > running away until their stomachs were come down. From one of the said > Towers, notwithstanding their condition, they killed and wounded some of > our > men. When they submitted, their officers were knocked on the head; and > every > tenth man of the soldiers killed; and the rest shipped for the Barbadoes. > The soldiers in the other Tower were all spared, as to their lives only; > and > shipped likewise for the Barbadoes... > > I sent a party of horse and dragoons to a House within five miles of Trim, > there being then in Trim some Scots Companies, which the Lord of ARDES > brought to assist the Lord of ORMOND. But upon the news of Tredha, they > ran > away; leaving their great guns behind them, which also we have possessed. > > And now give me leave to say how it comes to pass that this work is > wrought. > It was set upon some of our hearts. That a great thing should be done, not > by power or might, but by the Spirit of God. And is it not so, > clearly?.... > > It is remarkable that these people, at the first, set up the Mass in some > places of the Town that had been monasteries, but afterwards grew so > insolent that, the last Lord's day before the storm, the Protestants were > thrust out of the great Church called St. Peter's, and they had public > Mass > there: and in this very place near 1,000 of them were put to the sword, > fleeing thither for safety. I believe all their friars were knocked on the > head promiscuously but two; the one of which was Father Peter TAAFF, > brother > to the Lord TAAFF, whom the soldiers took, the next day, and made an end > of. > The other was taken in the Round Tower, under the repute of a Lieutenant, > and when he understood that the officer in that Tower had no quarter, he > confessed he was a Friar; but that did not save him... > > I most humbly pray the Parliament may be pleased 'that' this Army may be > maintained; and that a consideration may be had of them, and of the > carrying > on affairs here, 'such' as may give a speedy issue to this work. To which > there seems to be a marvellous fair opportunity offered by God. And > although > it may seem very chargeable to the State of England to maintain so great a > force; yet surely to stretch a little for the present, in following God's > providence, in hope the charge will not be long -- I trust it will not be > thought by any (that have not irreconcilable or malicious principles) > unfit > for me to move, For a constant supply; which, in human probability as to > outward things, is most likely to hasten and perfect this work. And indeed > if God please to finish it here as He hath done in England, the War is > like > to pay itself. > > We keep the field much; our tents sheltering us from the wet and cold. But > yet the Country-sickness overtakes many; and therefore we desire recruits, > and some fresh regiments of foot, may be sent us... Craving pardon for > this > great trouble, I rest. > > Your most obedient servant, > > OLIVER CROMWELL > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Cromwell went to ireland at the end of the English Civil War because he had a large army he couldn't afford to pay. To appease them, he took them to Ireland to kill Catholics and steal whatever they could. He'll never be a good guy. John O'Brien -----Original Message----- From: michael purcell <carlowmike@gmail.com> To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 5:19 am Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell Letters page, Sunday Independent, 28th Sept. 2008 Tom Reilly: Cromwell, My Declaration of War<http://edwardvallance.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/tom-reilly-cromwell-my-declaration-of-war/> Ads by Google<http://services.google.com/feedback/abg?url=http://edwardvallance.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/tom-reilly-cromwell-my-declaration-of-war/&hl=en&client=ca-pub-3443918307802676&adU=www.Google.ie/AdWords&adT=Google+In+Ireland&done=1> Google In Ireland <s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.Google.ie/AdWords> Get Qualified Visitors To Your Site Place Your Ad On Google Today! www.Google.ie/AdWords <s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.Google.ie/AdWords> Below, Tom Reilly, author of Cromwell: An Honourable Enemy<throws" target=_blankhttp://www.amazon.co.uk/Cromwell-Honourable-Enemy-Tom-Reilly/dp/0863223907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220517673&sr=1-1>throws down a challenge to Irish historians over their treatment of Cromwell. Over here, you can listen to Tom on RTE 1's Ryan Tubridy<show" target=_blankhttp://www.rte.ie/radio1/thetubridyshow/1225084.html>show, debating whether the Lord Protector was hero or=2 0villain with Professor Ciaran Brady<http://tcdlocalportal.tcd.ie/pls/public/staff.detail?p_unit=histories_humanities&p_name=cbrady> . I would like to declare open warfare on the seventeenth century experts of Ireland please, or perhaps even challenge them to a duel. Cheers. Thanks Please allow me to explain. A primary school teacher somewhere in Ireland faces a classroom full of eleven-year-olds. The teacher reaches for the textbook Earthlink 5th Class published by Folens in 2004. (Earthlink is a textbook series from junior infants to sixth class that incorporates the integrated approach outlined by the primary school syllabus on the Irish school curriculum.) On page 87 the following words are printed: 'Cromwell captured Drogheda. About 3,000 men, women and children were killed.' That's the reason for my declaration of war. There's no other. Just that. Cromwell has remained the historian's Hamlet, to be re-interpreted by each succeeding generation, as the founder of liberty or military dictator, the scourge of tyrants, or tyrant himself, the champion of parliament or its betrayer, God's executioner or God's reformer. In Ireland the very name Cromwell has become shorthand for a complex set of attitudes, all resting not so much on the man himself, but on him being symbolic of a defining moment of Irish history. In the demonology of that history, pride of place, without a shadow of a doubt, goes to Cromwell. Because he left such a bitterly divisive legacy, he also left20an equally divisive historiography. Primarily as a result of the work of nineteenth century nationalists (notably John Prendergast and Fr Denis Murphy), Cromwell has for most Irish people become the personification of barbarity, religious intolerance and English conquest. He has been accused of being a war criminal and of being an early ethnic cleanser. They recount tales of thousands of defenceless Irish citizens, men, women and children, all put to the sword at the hands of "Old Ironsides" and his men during their scorched earth campaign. In actual fact Cromwell was framed. Cromwell – An Honourable Enemy first saw the light of day in 1999 and has been largely dismissed by most scholars. Although some academics welcomed it with a certain ambivalence, it has certainly not been adopted by many – although it has been received more generously outside Ireland. Yet – and this is most remarkable – it has never been seriously challenged by any historian anywhere. Michael O Siochru leads the charge of protesters. Yet his recently published God's Executioner falls abysmally short of presenting a serious challenge to Honourable Enemy. Amazingly he engages in wild speculation. I'm still shocked by his incredible assertions on this matter, with nothing solid whatsoever to back it up. The facts are there for all to see. This is not rocket science. In fact one wonders at the erudite author's motivation in making such assiduous efforts t o interpret the well-known and oft-quoted contemporary sources in such an inequitable, some might say biased, way. Instead, Ó Siochrú and his ilk should be running to the printing presses to (at least) temper the school textbooks in order that they promulgate a balanced view of the events. The promotional literature accompanying the book highlights the fact that the same author has scripted the two-part documentary series on Irish television station RTE this September about Cromwell in Ireland. In this book he has gone out on a limb, put his reputation on the line so to speak, and if this is the best shot he can take to justify a civilian massacre on a large scale, it looks like he will live to regret it. Several experts of the period come to mind who might be inclined to take a different, more even-handed, view of the available evidence. Of course civilians could have got caught in the crossfire in Drogheda and Wexford, killed as a result of collateral damage, etc. etc. etc. Well, duh! But there was no policy to kill the innocent, nor is there any concrete evidence that suggests such a thing occurred. Historians have taken a wide birth of my book because I have entered their world and proved them (generations of academics) wrong. I have in fact taught my granny how to suck eggs. First they castigated me, then they dismissed me, then some of them (Taidgh O Hannrachain) even said they said that they knew this all along =E 2 it was nothing new!!!. If they knew this all along, then why in the name of all that is holy are we still delivering nineteenth century propaganda to children in the 21st century? The historian James Graham Leyburn has said of Cromwell's campaign in Ireland: 'What Cromwell did deserves to be ranked with the horrors perpetrated by Gengis Khan. His pacification of Ireland has left scars on that country which have never been forgotten or forgiven.' Oliver Cromwell is completely innocent of killing the ordinary unarmed people of Ireland and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. But before I finish, here's the thing…ask yourself this question…if the facts are open to interpretation (which at the very least they most certainly are) then why do people like O'Siochru, Jason McElligott, Padraig Lenehan etc not take a balanced view? Contrast this with John Morrill who agrees with me that no civilians died in cold blood at Drogheda but believes some may well have got caught in the crossfire. And the difference? He's English. No inherent bias. I rest my case. Tom Reilly ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body20of the message
I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara Gaeltacht. Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as maintained in their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they are living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- The Dream lives on! Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Oliver CROMWELL's letter to Hon. Wm. LENTHALL, Speaker of Parliament of England, regarding the attack at Drogheda, Co. Louth -- Dublin, 17th September 1649: SIR, Upon Tuesday the 10th of this instant, about five o'clock in the evening, we began the Storm: and after some hot dispute we entered, about seven or eight hundred men; the Enemy disputing it very stiffly with us. And indeed, through the advantages of the place, and the courage God was pleased to give the defenders, our men were forced to retreat quite out of the breach, not without some considerable loss; Colonel CASTLE being shot in the head, whereof he presently died; and divers officers and soldiers doing their duty killed and wounded. There was a Tenalia to flanker the south Wall of the Town, between Duleek Gate and the corner Tower before mention; -- which our men entered, wherein they found some forty or fifty of the Enemy, which they put to the sword. And this 'Tenalia' they held: but it being without the Wall, and the sally-port through the Wall into that Tenalia being choked up with some of the Enemy which were killed in it, it proved of no use for an entrance into the Town that way. Although our men that stormed the breaches were forced to recoil, as is before expressed; yet, being encouraged to recover their loss, they made a second attempt: wherein God was pleased so to animate them that they got ground of the Enemy, and by the Goodness of God, forced him to quit his entrenchments. And after a very hot dispute, the Enemy having both horse and foot, and we only foot, within the Wall -- they gave ground, and our men became masters both of their retrenchments and 'of'' the Church; which indeed, although they made our entrance the more difficult, yet they provided of excellent use to us; so that the Enemy could not 'now' annoy us with their horse, but thereby we had advantage to make good the ground, that so we might let in our own horse; which accordingly was done, though with much difficulty. Divers of the Enemy retreated into the Mill-Mount: a place very strong and of difficult access; being exceedingly high, having a good graft, and strongly palisadoed. The Governor, Sir Arthur ASHTON, and divers considerable Officers being there, our men getting up to them, were ordered by me to put them all to the sword. And indeed, being in the heat of action, I forbade them to spare any that were in arms in the Town: and, I think, that night they put to the sword about 2,000 men: -- divers of the officers and soldiers being fled over the Bridge into the other part of the Town, where about 100 of them possessed St. Peter's Church-steeple, some the west Gate, and others a strong Round Tower next the Gate called St. Sunday's. These being summoned to yield to mercy, refused. Whereupon I ordered the steeple of St. Peter's Church to be fired, when one of them was heard to say in the midst of the flames: "God damn me, God confound me; I burn, I burn." The next day, the other two Towers were summoned; in one of which was about six or seven score; but they refused to yield themselves: and we knowing that hunger must compel them, set only good guards to secure them from running away until their stomachs were come down. From one of the said Towers, notwithstanding their condition, they killed and wounded some of our men. When they submitted, their officers were knocked on the head; and every tenth man of the soldiers killed; and the rest shipped for the Barbadoes. The soldiers in the other Tower were all spared, as to their lives only; and shipped likewise for the Barbadoes... I sent a party of horse and dragoons to a House within five miles of Trim, there being then in Trim some Scots Companies, which the Lord of ARDES brought to assist the Lord of ORMOND. But upon the news of Tredha, they ran away; leaving their great guns behind them, which also we have possessed. And now give me leave to say how it comes to pass that this work is wrought. It was set upon some of our hearts. That a great thing should be done, not by power or might, but by the Spirit of God. And is it not so, clearly?.... It is remarkable that these people, at the first, set up the Mass in some places of the Town that had been monasteries, but afterwards grew so insolent that, the last Lord's day before the storm, the Protestants were thrust out of the great Church called St. Peter's, and they had public Mass there: and in this very place near 1,000 of them were put to the sword, fleeing thither for safety. I believe all their friars were knocked on the head promiscuously but two; the one of which was Father Peter TAAFF, brother to the Lord TAAFF, whom the soldiers took, the next day, and made an end of. The other was taken in the Round Tower, under the repute of a Lieutenant, and when he understood that the officer in that Tower had no quarter, he confessed he was a Friar; but that did not save him... I most humbly pray the Parliament may be pleased 'that' this Army may be maintained; and that a consideration may be had of them, and of the carrying on affairs here, 'such' as may give a speedy issue to this work. To which there seems to be a marvellous fair opportunity offered by God. And although it may seem very chargeable to the State of England to maintain so great a force; yet surely to stretch a little for the present, in following God's providence, in hope the charge will not be long -- I trust it will not be thought by any (that have not irreconcilable or malicious principles) unfit for me to move, For a constant supply; which, in human probability as to outward things, is most likely to hasten and perfect this work. And indeed if God please to finish it here as He hath done in England, the War is like to pay itself. We keep the field much; our tents sheltering us from the wet and cold. But yet the Country-sickness overtakes many; and therefore we desire recruits, and some fresh regiments of foot, may be sent us... Craving pardon for this great trouble, I rest. Your most obedient servant, OLIVER CROMWELL
Letters page, Sunday Independent, 28th Sept. 2008 Tom Reilly: Cromwell, My Declaration of War<http://edwardvallance.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/tom-reilly-cromwell-my-declaration-of-war/> Ads by Google<http://services.google.com/feedback/abg?url=http://edwardvallance.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/tom-reilly-cromwell-my-declaration-of-war/&hl=en&client=ca-pub-3443918307802676&adU=www.Google.ie/AdWords&adT=Google+In+Ireland&done=1> Google In Ireland <s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.Google.ie/AdWords> Get Qualified Visitors To Your Site Place Your Ad On Google Today! www.Google.ie/AdWords <s-p:%20Go%20to%20www.Google.ie/AdWords> Below, Tom Reilly, author of Cromwell: An Honourable Enemy<http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cromwell-Honourable-Enemy-Tom-Reilly/dp/0863223907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1220517673&sr=1-1>throws down a challenge to Irish historians over their treatment of Cromwell. Over here, you can listen to Tom on RTE 1's Ryan Tubridy<http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thetubridyshow/1225084.html>show, debating whether the Lord Protector was hero or villain with Professor Ciaran Brady<http://tcdlocalportal.tcd.ie/pls/public/staff.detail?p_unit=histories_humanities&p_name=cbrady> . I would like to declare open warfare on the seventeenth century experts of Ireland please, or perhaps even challenge them to a duel. Cheers. Thanks Please allow me to explain. A primary school teacher somewhere in Ireland faces a classroom full of eleven-year-olds. The teacher reaches for the textbook Earthlink 5th Class published by Folens in 2004. (Earthlink is a textbook series from junior infants to sixth class that incorporates the integrated approach outlined by the primary school syllabus on the Irish school curriculum.) On page 87 the following words are printed: 'Cromwell captured Drogheda. About 3,000 men, women and children were killed.' That's the reason for my declaration of war. There's no other. Just that. Cromwell has remained the historian's Hamlet, to be re-interpreted by each succeeding generation, as the founder of liberty or military dictator, the scourge of tyrants, or tyrant himself, the champion of parliament or its betrayer, God's executioner or God's reformer. In Ireland the very name Cromwell has become shorthand for a complex set of attitudes, all resting not so much on the man himself, but on him being symbolic of a defining moment of Irish history. In the demonology of that history, pride of place, without a shadow of a doubt, goes to Cromwell. Because he left such a bitterly divisive legacy, he also left an equally divisive historiography. Primarily as a result of the work of nineteenth century nationalists (notably John Prendergast and Fr Denis Murphy), Cromwell has for most Irish people become the personification of barbarity, religious intolerance and English conquest. He has been accused of being a war criminal and of being an early ethnic cleanser. They recount tales of thousands of defenceless Irish citizens, men, women and children, all put to the sword at the hands of "Old Ironsides" and his men during their scorched earth campaign. In actual fact Cromwell was framed. Cromwell – An Honourable Enemy first saw the light of day in 1999 and has been largely dismissed by most scholars. Although some academics welcomed it with a certain ambivalence, it has certainly not been adopted by many – although it has been received more generously outside Ireland. Yet – and this is most remarkable – it has never been seriously challenged by any historian anywhere. Michael O Siochru leads the charge of protesters. Yet his recently published God's Executioner falls abysmally short of presenting a serious challenge to Honourable Enemy. Amazingly he engages in wild speculation. I'm still shocked by his incredible assertions on this matter, with nothing solid whatsoever to back it up. The facts are there for all to see. This is not rocket science. In fact one wonders at the erudite author's motivation in making such assiduous efforts to interpret the well-known and oft-quoted contemporary sources in such an inequitable, some might say biased, way. Instead, Ó Siochrú and his ilk should be running to the printing presses to (at least) temper the school textbooks in order that they promulgate a balanced view of the events. The promotional literature accompanying the book highlights the fact that the same author has scripted the two-part documentary series on Irish television station RTE this September about Cromwell in Ireland. In this book he has gone out on a limb, put his reputation on the line so to speak, and if this is the best shot he can take to justify a civilian massacre on a large scale, it looks like he will live to regret it. Several experts of the period come to mind who might be inclined to take a different, more even-handed, view of the available evidence. Of course civilians could have got caught in the crossfire in Drogheda and Wexford, killed as a result of collateral damage, etc. etc. etc. Well, duh! But there was no policy to kill the innocent, nor is there any concrete evidence that suggests such a thing occurred. Historians have taken a wide birth of my book because I have entered their world and proved them (generations of academics) wrong. I have in fact taught my granny how to suck eggs. First they castigated me, then they dismissed me, then some of them (Taidgh O Hannrachain) even said they said that they knew this all along – it was nothing new!!!. If they knew this all along, then why in the name of all that is holy are we still delivering nineteenth century propaganda to children in the 21st century? The historian James Graham Leyburn has said of Cromwell's campaign in Ireland: 'What Cromwell did deserves to be ranked with the horrors perpetrated by Gengis Khan. His pacification of Ireland has left scars on that country which have never been forgotten or forgiven.' Oliver Cromwell is completely innocent of killing the ordinary unarmed people of Ireland and I defy anyone to prove otherwise. But before I finish, here's the thing…ask yourself this question…if the facts are open to interpretation (which at the very least they most certainly are) then why do people like O'Siochru, Jason McElligott, Padraig Lenehan etc not take a balanced view? Contrast this with John Morrill who agrees with me that no civilians died in cold blood at Drogheda but believes some may well have got caught in the crossfire. And the difference? He's English. No inherent bias. I rest my case. Tom Reilly
that is too funny! There were lots of people looking at the maps and photos of the school kids. Would love to get my hands on those daybooks from the foundling hospitals. The page they had on display had parent's occupations, where they were born {some had village in Ireland} and similar info. Of course, that was when the info was known. These were from 1870's. Of, course, not all Irish but quite a lot were. They had one of the cribs they put the babies who were given given up in. BTW: There is a new book out by Patrick Tracey entitled: STALKING IRISH MADNESS {searching for the roots of my families schizophrenia}. for more info: _www.stalkingirishmadness.com_ (http://www.stalkingirishmadness.com) In a message dated 9/29/2008 12:26:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rkdoug2000@yahoo.com writes: Very interesting site, Judy. Loved the map with the pins marking Catholic schools! I was going to send this link to my brother who is an historian of American Catholicism. But--going to brag here--he is giving one of the lectures associated with the exhibit! Guess he knows about it. kathleen ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
THE FAMINE ROAD, 1847-1997 Long agonies of the road stumbled down, shades of emigrant stain the asphalt with their blood. Between the weeds where people've come for years now, one like yourself treads and sees his shoes wrapped in rope. The tangled slope is brutal, the news from home silent as a grave. Inside the marcher his days unformed lie in fallow, still awaiting word that love has won, the world become safe for hunger's urge. -- Michael Coffey "The Irish In America," ed. Michael Coffey, text Terry Golway, Hyperion Books/NY 1997. Book dedicated to parents Tom and Mary Golway and John and Eleanor Coffey
Very interesting site, Judy. Loved the map with the pins marking Catholic schools! I was going to send this link to my brother who is an historian of American Catholicism. But--going to brag here--he is giving one of the lectures associated with the exhibit! Guess he knows about it. kathleen
We recently saw an interesting exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York which may be of interest to anyone in that area. It is CATHOLICS IN NEW YORK 1808-1946 and runs until December 31, 2008. It looks at many aspects of the catholic church in NYC--hospitals, schools, orphanages and social welfare organizations. One area I found interesting were the record books and letters written by mothers of babies given up to foundling hospitals. The record books were under glass but a lot of Irish names were on the pages we were allowed to look at. The web site for the museum is _www.mcny.org_ (http://www.mcny.org) . The museum is at 1220 Fifth Avenue at 103rd street. JUDY **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)