Hi Lillian, This is very interesting. Please tell us more. What surname? What do you know about him/her? Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jedlhd@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 11:51 AM To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] "To hell or Connaught" I suspect Cromwell is the reason my ancestor came to Maryland in 1670 as a servant because they were devout Catholic. Lillian **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I subscribe to Ancestry, and can provide information for you. There are some 894,000 listings for this ship's name. The good news is that the specific date you mentioned is in the file. What name do you need me to locate? Regards, Trish --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Lorri <phillylorri@comcast.net> wrote: > From: Lorri <phillylorri@comcast.net> > Subject: [IRISH-AMER] passenger list > To: irish-american@rootsweb.com > Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 12:00 PM > Is there a Irish passenger list? I am searching for the > manifest of Ship > Shakespeare into NY june 13 1837 > Thanks for any help. > Lorri > > > > searching- ALLEN-BARNETT-CARROLL-BURNS > GEIGER-Veach > -GEARIN-KANE-SMITH-MOYLAN > DONAHUE > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list > Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Hi Ivan, Thank you. If memory serves, it was Cromwell's surgeon who wrote proudly about enslaving and shipping 100,000 in one year alone. I'm surprised Seán O'Callaghan used a lower number. No idea where he got it. Check the State Papers For Ireland for great detail on this period from the English point of view. Also, we're talking slavery here. Not indentured servitude. Cromwell wasn't trying to give these people a break with free passage to the Colonies. These people were sold into 'perpetual slavery' with the full expectation that they would be ground to death as slaves in short order. I remember reading somewhere a recent calculation that average life expectancy for a slave on the sugar plantations was not more than 2-4 years. But given that average life expectancy in the Virginia colony for 'yeomen' and 'gentlemen' until the 1624 takeover by the crown was something like 12-18 months, 2-4 years for slaves only 25-30 years later seems a bit high to me. Anyway, after Cromwell died, some colonies in North America (and remember these were all separate entities) passed laws to reduce the number of years to be served by the survivors. But even after passage of laws like this, owners who had paid for perpetuity didn't just jump up and let everybody go. Given that the Irish were Irish-speaking, despised, regarded as enemy aliens (which certainly they were), and under threat of death from their owners, there wasn't much these slaves could do. If they got uppity, they might wind up like Anne Glover. Like 99% of her countrymen, that particular slave (some says she was taken at Drogheda) could say the Lord's Prayer in Irish and in Latin, but not in English. Which was proof enough for the Puritans - they hung her as a witch in Boston. And that hysteria helped bring on the Salem Witch Trials about 2 years later - some of the girls had read Cotton Mather's lurid bestseller on the case. Also interesting to note that the Irish slave-trade was a Puritan monopoly. Because they were in charge, they were able to cut their Royalist/Anglican enemies out of the profits. After the Restoration, slave-raiding in Ireland by Bristol merchants continued into the 18th century. Why go all the way to Africa when you can get what you want locally? Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Lennon Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:37 PM To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Irish in Cromwellian " Slavery" Query: Re 100,000 "to slavery in one year alone" Not to mitigate the disaster but Sean O'Callaghan states (TO HELL OR BARBADOS: THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF IRELAND) a figure of 50,000 men, women and children to Barbados and Virginia, 1652 -1659. As to whether indentured servitude constitutes slavery is a matter for debate. Admittedly, Ireland to the Act of Union is not my area of interest/knowledge and I will stand corrected ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerrykelly@att.net> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide >A chairde, > > I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian > society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native > population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not > like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the > local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still > knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and > well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his > time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left > a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of > information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like > Cromwell. > > Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great > Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish > women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him > from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy > made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping > them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them > to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have > to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. > > The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 > years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you > count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best > estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best > estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell > showed up to finish us off. > > Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to > slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were > killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates > range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of > 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold > into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related > famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), > then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. > > In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no > more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern > technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. > > If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance > Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families > listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great > mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of > Genealogies'), now you know why. > > Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting > somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms > doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in > Ireland.. > > Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó > in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice > in Hell. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > > -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" > <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > > >> Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all >> indigeneous >> R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish >> "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers >> behind if >> they lacked the means to follow >> >> Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than >> 5% in >> "planted" Ulster >> >> slan agus beannacht >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >> >> >> >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >> >Gaeltacht. >> > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great >> > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as >> > maintained in >> > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the >> > Midlands-they >> > are >> > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged >> > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... >> > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- >> > >> > The Dream lives on! >> > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale >> > >> > >> > >> > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial >> > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, >> > tips >> > and >> > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) >> > >> > ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> > Registry >> > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> Registry at: >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hey Michael...Thanks so much...I finally found Boherbue, County Cork. Joanne On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 09:40:13 +0100, wrote: > Thursday, October 2, 2008 Website may end squabbling about Irish placenames > In > this section *»* <http://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/index.html> > > - President calls for new debate on domestic > violence<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458736.html> > - Four questioned following €4m narcotics > seizures<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458755.html> > - First chapter of new Banville novel available free on > website<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458743.html> > - Call to maintain Combat Poverty's > independence<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458751.html> > - M50 toll problems overstated, says > NRA<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815460348.html> > - Simon Communities warn of increase in > homelessness<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815460344.html> > > STEVEN CARROLL > > LOCALISED SQUABBLING about the correct spelling, pronunciation and origins > of placenames could come to an end following the launch of a website > providing the official Irish names of thousands of towns, streets and > villages. > > People all over the world can now log on to www.logainm.ie to find the > official translation of some 100,000 Irish placenames. > > The service comes following years of research and engagement with local > communities which attempted to set in stone what exactly is in a name. > Even > though the site was formally launched only yesterday, interest in the > service has been high, with the website recording some 250,000 hits in > September. > > Minister for Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív said he was delighted to > launch > the resource, which he hopes will be of interest to students, teachers, > journalists, translators and anyone interested in Irish heritage and > geography. > > "Most of the country's place-names are Irish in origin, but through > history > and the decline of the Irish language as the everyday vernacular, many of > our place-names have evolved into anglicised versions of the original > names," he said. > > The spelling and pronunciation of the names of Irish towns has been a > source > of much controversy over the years and Mr Ó Cuív said the development of > the > service was not without hitches. > > "This can be a very emotional and difficult subject and the public will > come > to you and say 'we think we're right', so we sent them the research we > have > . . . but some people just don't accept our response." > > Mr Ó Cuív said, for instance, some people call Knock, Co Mayo, An Cnoc, > but > locals call it Cnoc Mhuire, which, he understood, came from a priest in > the > last century. He said he let Cnoc Mhuire stand on the basis that An Cnoc > could cause confusion as other places carry the same name. > > "It was a hard call, these things are not black and white, but I felt this > had come into the language and you have to allow change over time, and of > course you know the most famous one of all and I'm not going to mention > it," > he said. > > Work on the site, developed by Fiontar, Dublin City University's Irish > teaching and research unit, on behalf of the Placenames Branch of the > Department of Gaeltacht Affairs, is continuing. > > (c) 2008 The Irish Times > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is there a Irish passenger list? I am searching for the manifest of Ship Shakespeare into NY june 13 1837 Thanks for any help. Lorri searching- ALLEN-BARNETT-CARROLL-BURNS GEIGER-Veach -GEARIN-KANE-SMITH-MOYLAN DONAHUE

I read all about the life and times of this "God Fearing" stinker. I was glad to see that his head did roll - hopefully it did not contaminate anything around it. Loretta Cheers

Good point Pat! **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

HE WISHES FOR THE CLOTHS OF HEAVEN Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths, Enwrought with golden and silver light, The blue and the dim and the dark cloths Of night and light and half-light, I would spread the cloths under your feet: But I, being poor, have only my dreams; I have spread my dreams under your feet; Tread softly because you tread on my dreams. - William Butler YEATS

Thursday, October 2, 2008 Website may end squabbling about Irish placenames In this section *»* <http://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/index.html> - President calls for new debate on domestic violence<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458736.html> - Four questioned following €4m narcotics seizures<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458755.html> - First chapter of new Banville novel available free on website<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458743.html> - Call to maintain Combat Poverty's independence<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815458751.html> - M50 toll problems overstated, says NRA<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815460348.html> - Simon Communities warn of increase in homelessness<http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1002/1222815460344.html> STEVEN CARROLL LOCALISED SQUABBLING about the correct spelling, pronunciation and origins of placenames could come to an end following the launch of a website providing the official Irish names of thousands of towns, streets and villages. People all over the world can now log on to www.logainm.ie to find the official translation of some 100,000 Irish placenames. The service comes following years of research and engagement with local communities which attempted to set in stone what exactly is in a name. Even though the site was formally launched only yesterday, interest in the service has been high, with the website recording some 250,000 hits in September. Minister for Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív said he was delighted to launch the resource, which he hopes will be of interest to students, teachers, journalists, translators and anyone interested in Irish heritage and geography. "Most of the country's place-names are Irish in origin, but through history and the decline of the Irish language as the everyday vernacular, many of our place-names have evolved into anglicised versions of the original names," he said. The spelling and pronunciation of the names of Irish towns has been a source of much controversy over the years and Mr Ó Cuív said the development of the service was not without hitches. "This can be a very emotional and difficult subject and the public will come to you and say 'we think we're right', so we sent them the research we have . . . but some people just don't accept our response." Mr Ó Cuív said, for instance, some people call Knock, Co Mayo, An Cnoc, but locals call it Cnoc Mhuire, which, he understood, came from a priest in the last century. He said he let Cnoc Mhuire stand on the basis that An Cnoc could cause confusion as other places carry the same name. "It was a hard call, these things are not black and white, but I felt this had come into the language and you have to allow change over time, and of course you know the most famous one of all and I'm not going to mention it," he said. Work on the site, developed by Fiontar, Dublin City University's Irish teaching and research unit, on behalf of the Placenames Branch of the Department of Gaeltacht Affairs, is continuing. (c) 2008 The Irish Times

This  is why I am proud to have studied under Gearoid O'Ceallaigh at An Scoil Gaeilge Gearoid Toibin!!! Taimid beo fis a chairde!!! -----Original Message----- From: jerrykelly@att.net To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide A chairde, I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian society, hen only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native population, then he other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not like they can use their eekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the local supermarket. Before gas hambers and machine guns, people still knew how to wipe out nations. The echnique was well-developed and well-understood long before Europe's religious ars. As a man of his time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, hich had been left a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This ind of information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like romwell. Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great Rising f 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish women and hildren. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him from Elizabeth, nd contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy made war on the ivilian population by driving all off the land, keeping them off the land, estroying their crops and food stores, starving them to death, and forcing heir surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have to go back more than 40 ears for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 years until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you count ontinued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best estimates of reland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best estimates for 1649 ange around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell showed up to finish us off. Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to lavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were killed n the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates range as high s 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of 50,000. If 400K ere left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold into slavery and another 0K killed off in 3 years of war and related famine (which seems too low a igure to me but let's go with it anyway), then that leaves approximately 250K eft in Ireland in 1652. In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no more han 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern technology asn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance Survey hat he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families listed, erritory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fh irbhisigh's great mid-17th century enealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of Genealogies'), now you know why. ome people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting somebody, or aybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms doesn't change the acts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in Ireland.. Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó in frinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice in Hell. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry ------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: ------------- Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all indigeneous R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers behind if they lacked the means to follow Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than 5% in "planted" Ulster slan agus beannacht ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >Gaeltacht. > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as > maintained in > their oral/sean nos traditio n- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they > are > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- > > The Dream lives on! > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== dd/check your surname t o the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: ttp://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

You are quite right as Maryland was a refuge for Catholics from England as well as Ireland hence the name "Mary"land.?? The Catholic Lord Baltimore was granted this land to get rid of unwanted catholics in the "British" isles.. -----Original Message----- From: Jedlhd@aol.com To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 11:51 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] "To hell or Connaught" I suspect Cromwell is the reason my ancestor came to Maryland in 1670 as a servant because they were devout Catholic. Lillian **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am very involved in Native ASmerican affairs and outraged but this is an Irish discussion page- the white man here did the same the English did in Ireland equally criminal and cruel -----Original Message----- From: Pat Connors <nymets22@gmail.com> To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 5:57 pm Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] "To hell or Connaught" The USA did the same with the Native Americans. Pres. Jackson ordered them all to the West of the Mississippi River onto reservations. Then took their children to residential religious schools. Speaking their native language was forbidden and only English could be spoken. Sound familiar? However, I don't hear the outrage in America about the Native American condition still going as I as I do about Cromwell...maybe we should take care of our own faults first. Just an observation. > Your points taken and understood, however,many perished as they followed > their former landlords on foot out into the west. Many more who were not > nobility were forced to settle in places that until other minor islands off the > coast of Conamara... -- Pat Connors, visiting Dublin, Ireland (born in USA, living in Sacramento CA) http://www.connorsgenealogy.com ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Query: Re 100,000 "to slavery in one year alone" Not to mitigate the disaster but Sean O'Callaghan states (TO HELL OR BARBADOS: THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF IRELAND) a figure of 50,000 men, women and children to Barbados and Virginia, 1652 -1659. As to whether indentured servitude constitutes slavery is a matter for debate. Admittedly, Ireland to the Act of Union is not my area of interest/knowledge and I will stand corrected ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerrykelly@att.net> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide >A chairde, > > I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian > society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native > population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not > like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the > local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still > knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and > well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his > time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left > a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of > information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like > Cromwell. > > Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great > Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish > women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him > from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy > made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping > them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them > to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have > to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. > > The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 > years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you > count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best > estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best > estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell > showed up to finish us off. > > Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to > slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were > killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates > range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of > 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold > into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related > famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), > then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. > > In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no > more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern > technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. > > If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance > Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families > listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great > mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of > Genealogies'), now you know why. > > Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting > somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms > doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in > Ireland.. > > Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó > in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice > in Hell. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > > -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" > <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > > >> Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all >> indigeneous >> R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish >> "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers >> behind if >> they lacked the means to follow >> >> Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than >> 5% in >> "planted" Ulster >> >> slan agus beannacht >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >> >> >> >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >> >Gaeltacht. >> > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great >> > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as >> > maintained in >> > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the >> > Midlands-they >> > are >> > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged >> > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... >> > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- >> > >> > The Dream lives on! >> > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale >> > >> > >> > >> > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial >> > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, >> > tips >> > and >> > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) >> > >> > ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> > Registry >> > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> Registry at: >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

You are so right! "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there". Will Rogers In a message dated 10/1/2008 5:58:20 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, nymets22@gmail.com writes: The USA did the same with the Native Americans. Pres. Jackson ordered them all to the West of the Mississippi River onto reservations. Then took their children to residential religious schools. Speaking their native language was forbidden and only English could be spoken. Sound familiar? However, I don't hear the outrage in America about the Native American condition still going as I as I do about Cromwell...maybe we should take care of our own faults first. Just an observation. > Your points taken and understood, however,many perished as they followed > their former landlords on foot out into the west. Many more who were not > nobility were forced to settle in places that until other minor islands off the > coast of Conamara... -- Pat Connors, visiting Dublin, Ireland (born in USA, living in Sacramento CA) http://www.connorsgenealogy.com ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

The USA did the same with the Native Americans. Pres. Jackson ordered them all to the West of the Mississippi River onto reservations. Then took their children to residential religious schools. Speaking their native language was forbidden and only English could be spoken. Sound familiar? However, I don't hear the outrage in America about the Native American condition still going as I as I do about Cromwell...maybe we should take care of our own faults first. Just an observation. > Your points taken and understood, however,many perished as they followed > their former landlords on foot out into the west. Many more who were not > nobility were forced to settle in places that until other minor islands off the > coast of Conamara... -- Pat Connors, visiting Dublin, Ireland (born in USA, living in Sacramento CA) http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

A chairde, I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like Cromwell. Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell showed up to finish us off. Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of Genealogies'), now you know why. Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in Ireland.. Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice in Hell. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all > indigeneous > R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish > "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers > behind if > they lacked the means to follow > > Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than > 5% in > "planted" Ulster > > slan agus beannacht > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell > > > >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara > >Gaeltacht. > > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great > > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as > > maintained in > > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they > > are > > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged > > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... > > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- > > > > The Dream lives on! > > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale > > > > > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > > and > > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In the blog entry entitled "The Irish in Erie County ," the following names are mentioned:John Beatty, William Gurley, R. A. Sidley, Leonard Johnson, Wilson McLaughlin, and John Wesley. http://sanduskyhistory.blogspot.com/2008/10/irish-in-erie-county.html    

I suspect Cromwell is the reason my ancestor came to Maryland in 1670 as a servant because they were devout Catholic. Lillian **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)

MEMORY LANE: In his autobiography, "Gracie: A Love Story" (1988) George BURNS writes tenderly about his wife and partner for 40 years, Gracie ALLEN, who was to become the most beloved "scatterbrain" in the history of show business. They were a team, both on and off the stage. Here are some excerpts from his book -- "When I met Gracie in 1923, she was a young woman living in NYC without a job. She had just quit a vaudeville act in NJ and heard I needed a partner. So she caught my act in Union City. After the last show her roommate brought Gracie backstage to meet me. She was just a tiny thing, barely five feet tall and hardly more than 100 pounds. She had long hair, with curls that spun down over her shoulders. Her skin was that Irish peach-bloom, and she was wearing just a touch of makeup. "Nattie," her roommate said (offstage everybody called me Nat or Nattie, since my real name was Nathan BIRNBAUM), "this is Grace Allen. I remember looking down at her and thinking, "What a pretty little girl she is. I hope she'll work with me... Gracie was born in San Francisco and grew up in a big, loving Irish family with three sisters and a brother. She made her maiden appearance on stage when she was three, performing an "Interpretive Irish Dance" at a church social. That was probably the first time she heard the warm sound of a laughing audience, and she fell in love with it. There was never any doubt in Gracie's mind that she was going to be in show business. Practically every day after school, she would go downtown and stroll from theater to theater, looking at the pictures in the lobby and dreaming of the day her picture would be there. Gracie was smart, had absolutely perfect manners and a wonderful sense of humor. But she was also Irish and could be very tough. She always demanded that I treat her like the lady she was... In one of our vaudeville routines I asked Gracie, "Did the maid ever drop you on your head when you were a baby?" "Don't be silly, George," she'd answer with a wave of her gloved hand, "We couldn't afford a maid. My mother had to do it." Few people know this, but Gracie did have a serious childhood accident. Her left arm and shoulder were scalded very badly by boiling tea. Her arm was terribly scarred, and she could never completely straighten it out. She was always embarrassed about that scar and wore only long-sleeved dresses and blouses or full-length glove. That arm bothered her all her life. One evening we were home reading scripts -- we'd been married for maybe 25 year then -- when Gracie put hers down and said, "You know, Nattie, the nicest thing you've ever done for me is that you never noticed I have a bad arm." "Oh, really?" I answered. "Which arm is the bad one?" Gracie loved kids, and kids loved Gracie. But we couldn't have children of our own. Finally we decided to adopt. Our first child was a tiny five-week-old with great big blue eyes. We named her Sandra Jean BURNS. Sandy was such a delight that we decided she should have a brother. Ronald Jon BURNS was a very sick two-month-old baby when Gracie first saw him at the orphanage. The other babies were chubby and healthy, but Gracie pick out Ronnie because he needed her most... Just as Gracie and I were becoming stars, vaudeville was dying. Fortunately, we had the perfect act for radio. Gracie's illogical logic clicked immediately. Women understood her, men thought they were married to her, and everybody knew someone just like her. After a few years on the air our show began attracting the biggest names in show business. The elegant James and Pamela MASON raised cats, so when they appeared on the show Gracie declared, "My husband is a cat fancier too." "Oh, really?" Pamela asked. "How many do you have?" "Just one," Gracie replied. "In this country we're only permitted one husband." Pamela persisted, "Well, what is your method of raising cats?" "Same as yours. Put both hands under their belly and lift." When we moved to television, Gracie continued to play the same role the audiences had grown to love... When I think of Gracie, I remember a little girl with more energy than anyone around her; a strong, vibrant, sometimes tough woman. But she had suffered her first heart attack in the early 1950s and over the next years she had other minor ones. Gracie kept working, but she talked about retiring... We filmed our final show on 4 June 1958. For the first few years of her retirement, Gracie was very happy. She was well enough to go shopping and visit with friends and play cards and spend time reading and redecorating the house. But after a heart attack in 1961, she couldn't go out at night as much. She just didn't have the energy. In early 1964 she started to get worse. One day when I knew she was having a particularly rough time, I bought her an expensive mink coat. "Look what I bought for you, Googie," I said... She started crying.... Finally she got out of bed and put on the coat. She looked lovely. She called our friends and told them, "I can't be dying. You know Nat. If I was dying, he never would have bought me this coat." One night in August, we were home alone, watching a tribute to President KENNEDY on television and Gracie was crying.... A little later, I heard her calling for me. She was having trouble breathing. When we got to the hospital, not much later, the doctor came and told me, "I'm sorry, George, Gracie's gone." He asked me if I wanted to see her. Of course I did. I wanted to talk to her for a few more minutes. I wanted to stand next to her onstage and hear the laughter of the audience. I wanted her to look up at me with her trusting eyes. I wanted to ask her just once more, "Gracie, how's your brother?" So I went into the room. She was lying there, and she looked so peaceful. I leaned over, and I kissed her and whispered, "I love you, Googie." For the first time in 40 years I was alone. I don't know of many couples who spent as much time together as we did. We'd get up together, go to the theater or studio together, come home together at night. We loved each other, we liked each other, and we respected each other."

Don't forget the murdering Vikings ! I now live near the battered ruins of the ancient monastic settlement of Clonmacnoise. It really amazes me that the people of Clonmacnoise will to this day, blithely and shamelessly drive Swedish Saabs and Volvos, eat Danish bacon and Norwegian Gravalax after what the Vikings did to us ! And they have the cheek to call themselves Irish ! Thank God we have true Irish across the water who will never let us forget our history ;>) Good job the Romans never invaded Ireland or I'd have to give up Pasta ! Stuart www.irelandandirish.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell,we learnt it at school so it must be ................... OK--so the friars that Cromwell, in his own words, delighted in killing were in the royalist army? I was so unaware of that. Reilly is not an historian, he is a newpaper columnist with an ax to grind. And just who published his book? Oh, and of course the Penal Laws never ever existed. kathleen ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message