Gail - I don't see your query you stated you sent to the IrelandGenWeb list yesterday so am forwarding your previous note/s from the Irish-in-UK list to see if anyone here has some input for you. (I am out of ideas, at this point.) Please check the subject line above to see if it is correct, okay? You wrote: "Jean, you told me a couple of months ago if I posted the information on the Holdens you would help me work on it. Well I finally got it posted today and any help from you would be greatly appreciated. Looking for any information on Esther Holden and her family. Married ThomasWinstanley about 1860 around Liverpool or Lancashire. Any information appreciated. Thanks so much! Gail Bales gigitulsaok@cox.net Jean, Thank you so much for your reply. The whole Esther thing is almost a total mystery. I have a picture of her written upon by my Great Uncle saying My Aunt Esther and that is all the 100% information I have on her. If you don't mind I will send all of the questionable info I have on her. I also have letters from Thomas Winstanley to my Great Grandfather signed your nephew Thomas Winstanley, so that must be Esther's son. Were you interested in the answers to all your questions or where you just asking so I would try to check them out? I live in Oklahoma, U. S. A. so I am having no luck finding anything in Ireland. I only know Esther's Father was born in Carlow and her Mother in Wicklow and they (Mary Long and Thomas Holden) married in Wicklow in 1834 and they had a son James born in Wicklow in 1837 and we believe Esther was older than James.. I will post some info on the Irish-in-UK site. I have posted before and Cara gave me some info but nothing on Esther. There are a million Esther Holdens listed in Lancashire in the 1860's and 70's. Don't know which is which. What part of Lancashire are you researching and what names? Mine are from Wigan and Ashton-in Makerfield. I THINK my GGGrandfather Thomas was a blacksmith for the mines. Thanks again. Gail Bales Hi Gail -- Have you found your couple on any English census? What sort of documentation or family story do you have? Was Esther (Holden) Winstanley thought to be from Ireland? Is it possible that your Mr. Winstanley ever live in Ireland? On the Irish Primary Valuation (1848-64) there were two Winstanley households - one in Dublin and a second in Dublin city, per surname search engine at www.ireland.com/ancestor/ search engine. On the Primary Valuation of Ireland there were (1848-64) there were several Holden families - The table below shows the number of Holden households in each county in the Primary Valuation property survey of 1848-64. Click on a county name for a breakdown of the number of households by parish (paying). Antrim 22 Belfast city 11 Carlow 22 Cavan 9 Cork 4 Down 1 Dublin 6 Dublin city 6 Fermanagh 1 Galway 2 Kildare 3 Kilkenny 86 Louth 2 Meath 6 Monaghan 8 Offaly 1 Roscommon 2 Tipperary 11 Tyrone 1 Waterford 4 Westmeath 1 Wicklow 4 SURNAME DICTIONARY/ SLOINNTE NA h-EIREANN Holden numerous: Antrim, Kilkenny-Wexford-Waterford etc. Usually a variant of Howlin but in Ulster it is likely to be an English toponymic from Yorkshire or Lancashire. Houlden rare: Dublin. English, "dweller in hollow valley". DBS Jean Is the marriage date for your couple pretty firm? The reason I ask is that I found a Thomas Winstanley with an Esther in the family on the 1911 UK Census at , but the ages were wrong for the marriage you describe. Do you think they were together in England in 1911? Did your Winstanley have a connection to the Southward name? Do you have any location placenames? Any children's names? A child named Thomas after his father, perhaps? Did they have a daughter named Esther? Esther have a sister Catherine or a daughter or granddaughter Elizabeth? If you think they, are their children might be on the 1911 UK Census, check out http://www.1911census.co.uk/ **Longshot - But there were one or two Winstanley households in Flyde, Lancashire on the 1911 UK search, apparently, with others in the household with the Holden surname.** Jean