May 21, 2002, Hello Sharron, On Tue, 21 May 2002 you wrote: Joan, many thanks for your info re the black and the tans. You mention that there is a Belfast City Mailing list, would you happen to know the address for this list.? Many thanks Sharron Yes, Sharron dear, it is found in http//lists.rootsweb.com. Look in the section named IRELAND (not to be confused with Northern Ireland). You will find it listed as IRL-BELFAST-CITY. You may also wish to have a look at the website for the newspaper called Belfast Telegraph. It is belfasttelegraph.co.uk. Good Northern Irish luck to you. regards. Joan. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

May 20, 2002, Hello Sharron, On Mon, 20 May 2002 you wrote: I may even be in the wrong country with this one but hopefully people can help me in someway. There is an old verbal story in our family regarding some family members being 'chased' by the Black and the Tan. This was supposed to have happened in Belfast pre 1900. The family member who used to tell this story has since passed on but noone could get much more out of him except that they were very scared of this Black and the Tan. Could someone please tell me who they were (the Black and the Tan) and why they would have 'chased' people etc? Thanks Sharron Sharron, dear, if you wish to do a google search then you will see that there are several entries on the Black and Tans. Look up the www.google.com and in the search line type in the following words: The Black and Tans in Ireland. Just as a matter of interest, you might like to know that when I would be visiting my girl friends home as a young child I would often hear her father shouting in his sleep "the black and tans are coming, the black and tans are coming". Of course, at our young age we didn't know why he was shouting those words and if we asked we certainly didn't learn the answer. Must have been terribly scary. I also see that you mentioned Belfast. You probably know that there is a Belfast City mailing list. Regards. Joan. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Thanks for the info re the black and the tan. I'm afraid I'm somewhat lost in the history of it all as I'm in Australia and only in my 30's. There wasn't much Irish history taught to us at school over here. The story through our family was that they chased them (my gg grandfather and his brother? and bashed one of them quite severely. I was never told why. What did one do to them to cause this or was it just some sort of standard practice etc? What time period are we looking at? Thanks again Sharron --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/02

I may even be in the wrong country with this one but hopefully people can help me in someway. There is an old verbal story in our family regarding some family members being 'chased' by the Black and the Tan. This was supposed to have happened in Belfast pre 1900. The family member who used to tell this story has since passed on but noone could get much more out of him except that they were very scared of this Black and the Tan. Could someone please tell me who they were (the Black and the Tan) and why they would have 'chased' people etc? Thanks Sharron --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/02

My father came from Kilhimil, County Clare. He told the story of his grandmother being shot by the "tans" while she was hanging clothes in her yard.

Hello List, I hope someone will have a thought about a dilemma regarding my ancestor JAMES KNIGHT. On his Citizenship papers in 1878, he states ANTRIM as his place of birth - which would make him Irish. Yet I have also found on various documents, including the 1880 Census in Massachusetts where he states SCOTLAND as his place of birth, but he lists IRELAND as the birth place of both his parents... Has anyone run into this before? Why would he list Scotland as his place of birth? Would his parents have been visiting Scotland? But then his also lists Antrim? I have yet to find any trace of him or his parents [don't know if he had any siblings] in Ireland. James came to NY in 1851, settled in Massachusetts, fought in the Civil War -[those records show nothing except "Ireland"]. Thanks for any thoughts, Paula

During and after World War I the Nationalists of Ireland were struggling to be free of the British Boot. Many of the Nationalist groups were militant and tried to drive the British out of Ireland by burning their barracks and police stations. Short of police in Ireland, the British government sent in ex-soldiers, thugs, murderers to supplement the British police in Ireland. Many of those fresh from trench warfare in Europe were not trained to be policemen, but were trained to be an occupying army. As such they treated the Irish with brutality. Following is a standard training order issued by one of their commanders. If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..." Easy to see why many citizens of Ireland were shot or hanged, just on suspicion that they were Nationalists. Don Kelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharron" <anakie9@bigpond.com> To: <IrelandGenWeb-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 11:46 PM Subject: [IGW] Black and the Tan > Thanks for the info re the black and the tan. I'm afraid I'm somewhat lost in the history of it all as I'm in Australia and only in my 30's. There wasn't much Irish history taught to us at school over here. > > The story through our family was that they chased them (my gg grandfather and his brother? and bashed one of them quite severely. I was never told why. What did one do to them to cause this or was it just some sort of standard practice etc? > What time period are we looking at? > Thanks again > Sharron > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.361 / Virus Database: 199 - Release Date: 5/7/02 > > > ==== IrelandGenWeb Mailing List ==== > To contact the list administrator, please send an email to admin-irelandgenweb@rootsweb.com > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.338 / Virus Database: 189 - Release Date: 3/13/02

Received this interesting information on KUNO MEYER - For those who are not familiar with Kuno Meyer, I should point out that he was a German scholar who probably did more to promote the study of Old Irish and Middle Irish than anyone else. When he began his effort, most Mediaeval Irish manuscripts were mouldering in far-flung European monasteries. Meyer also supported Irish independence and even addressed a meeting of the Irish republican Clan na Gael in 1914. Of course, he was a German national, so his inclinations in connection with Ireland hold no surprise. A biographical sketch is here: <http://www.ucc.ie/celt/meyer.html>.

THE CRUCIFIXION At the cry of the first bird They began to crucify Thee, O Swan! Never shall lament cease because of that, It was like the parting of day from night. Ah, sore was the suffering borne By the body of Mary's Son, But sorer still to Him was the grief Which for His sake Came upon His mother. -- Irish verse, 12th century (anon.) - translated by Howard Mumford Jones

Oh King of stars! Whether my house be dark or bright, Never shall it be closed against any one, Lest Christ close His house against me. If there be a guest in your house And you conceal aught from him, 'Tis not the guest that will be without it, But Jesus, Mary's Son. -- Ireland 13th century (anonymous), trans. Kuno Meyer

Accompanied by the smells of oil, soot and petrol, and the sound of two and four-stroke engines starting with a cough, cars begin to set off, many of them with passengers dressed in period costume. The best of British, and the rest of the veteran car world, all built before 1905, converge on London's Hyde Park in readiness for the annual London to Brighton RAC Veteran Car Run. This run is not a race, for the cars are limited to an average speed of 20 mph. The finishing line is in Madeira Drive, Brighton, where all who manage to complete the run line up proudly to be admired by all, inspected and photographed. This annual event began on Saturday, 14 Nov 1896, to celebrate the passing into law of the Locomotives on the Highway Act, which raised the speed limit from 4 mph to 14 mph and abolished the requirement for vehicles to be preceded by a man on foot! No need for the man on foot to carry a red flag had been abolished 18 years previously, in 1878, but the Locomotive A! ct was still known as "The Red Flag Act" and a red flag was symbolically destroyed by Lord Winchilsea at the start of the 1896 run. Only 14 of the 33 cars that started in 1896 reached Brighton, although it is rumoured that one car was taken by train and covered with mud prior to crossing the finishing line! Prince Michael of Kent, President of the RAC, has been a regular participant, having driven a variety of vehicles including a 1900 Daimler, 1903 De Dietrich, 1904 Mercedes and 1930 Napier over the years. In 1971, Her Majesty the Queen entered the run, but did not drive, in a 70-year-old Daimler once driven by her father, King George VI, and originally owned by her great-grandfather King Edward VII. It was he who commanded that the Automobile club of Great Britain and Ireland should be known as the Royal Automobile Club.

BIO: The Mulchinocks were people of some social standing in Tralee, Co. Kerry, but had come down a bit in the world, perhaps. In William Pembroke Mulchinock's time (1820-64) they owned a drapery shop in the town and lived in Clogher's House near the River Lee, from which the town takes its name. Traigh Li is "the clear crystal fountain" of the song, "The Rose of Tralee." Nearby is the ruin of Ballymullan Castle. According to tradition, William fell deeply in love with Mary, the daughter of a woman who worked as a domestic servant for the Mulchinocks. Because of the problems, social and economic, which followed what was then known as "marrying beneath your station," young William was quickly packed off to France. From there he made his way to India and was wounded in a war which had broken out. On arriving back in Tralee he saw a funeral coming down the street and was told it was Mary's. He joined the cortege and, as soon as he reached home, wrote "The Rose of Tralee." Having written poems for the "Nation" newspaper and other Irish journals, William left for New York in 1849, and gained a reputation there as a writer of lyrics. "The Ballads and Songs of W. P. Mulchinock" was published two years later. The list of patrons and subscribers included the poets Emerson, Longfellow and Whittier. "The Rose of Tralee" is not in this collection. By this time William had married, or perhaps the omission is due to a judgement that it was merely an unsophisticated song, and not for the eyes of America's leading poets. Mulchinock returned to Ireland in 1855 and died in Tralee at an early age in 1864. Co. Westmeath's John McCormack and his recording no doubt added to the international popularity of "The Rose of Tralee." At the turn of the century Irish sentimentality was an essential ingredient even among lyricists who had never set foot in Ireland. Up to the 1930s it was among the most popular of the songs in the singing pubs of Lancashire. Perhaps William Mulchinock would have preferred to be remembered by some of his more ambitious songs, but to have written the national anthem of his native county is no small achievement! Tralee is the gateway to Killarney, one of the world's best-loved beauty spots. THE ROSE OF TRALEE The pale moon was rising above the green mountain, The sun was declining beneath the blue sea When I strayed with my love to the pure crystal fountain That stands in the beautiful vale of Tralee. She was lovely and fair as the rose of the summer, Yet 'twas not her beauty alone that won me. Oh no! 'twas the truth in her eye ever dawning That made me love Mary, The Rose of Tralee. The cool shades of evening their mantle were spreading. And Mary all smiling was list'ning to me. The moon thro' the valley her pale rays was shedding, When I won the heart of the Rose of Tralee. though lovely and fair as the rose of summer, Yet 'twas not her beauty alone that won me, Oh, no! 'twas the truth in her eye ever dawning. That made me love Mary, The Rose of Tralee. Contestants fly from all parts of the world for the Festival of Kerry (I believe held in August) - all hoping to be selected as the year's most beauteous "Rose of Tralee."

Oscar WILDE (1854-1900) was an author, playwright, and wit. (See an example of his mother's fine poetry below). Oscar preached the importance of style in both life and art but attacked Victorian narrow-mindedness and complacency. Wilde was born in Dublin. His full name was Oscar Fingal O'Flahertie Wills Wilde. At 20, Wilde left Ireland to study at Oxford University where he distinguished himself as a scholar and wit. He soon became a well-known public figure, but the period of his true achievement did not begin until he published "The Happy Prince and Other Tales" in 1883. In these fairy tales and fables, Wilde found a literary form well-suited to his talents. His only novel, the ingenious "Picture of Dorian Gray" (1890), is an enlarged moral fable. It describes a man whose portrait ages and grows ugly as a reflection of his moral corruption while his actual appearance remains the same. The book seems to show the destructive side of a devotion to pleasure and beauty similiar to Wilde's own. Wilde's plays taken together are his most important works. They often try to educate the idealist to his own weaknesses and to show the need for tolerance and forgiveness. In "The Importance of Being Earnest" (1895), his masterpiece, Wilde unites his own concern with style with society's concern with appearances, ridiculing social hypocrisy. In 1895, at the peak of his career with three plays running at the same time, he was accused of "personal impropriety" with Lord Alfred DOUGLAS by the marquis of Queensberry, Lord Alfred's father. As a result, there was great scandal, hopeless legal disputes, and Wilde was sentenced to two years in prison at hard labor. "The Ballad of Reading Gaol (1898), and a remarkable autobiographical document sometimes called "De Profundis" were written. Wilde left England after his release. Ruined in health, finances, and creative energy, but with his wit intact, he died in France three years later. Do sgríobh Speranza [an Banthighearna Wilde, mathair Oscair] na línte a leanas; tá tuilleadh a filiochta ar fáil ar an lainn ghreasáin so: <http://www.indiana.edu/~letrs/vwwp/wilde/speranza.html>. Do chas sí a roscanna catha ar son a tíre, le croidhe mhisneach. Go mairidh a h-anm trí bhith beatha. Speranza [Lady Wilde, Oscar's mother] wrote the following lines; more of her poetry is available at this site: <http://www.indiana.edu/~letrs/vwwp/wilde/speranza.html>. She sang her war songs on behalf of her country, with a brave heart. . THE ENIGMA. PALE victims, where is your Fatherland? Where oppression is law from age to age, Where the death-plague, and hunger, and misery rage, And tyrants a godless warfare wage 'Gainst the holiest rights of an ancient land. Where the corn waves green on the fair hillside, But each sheaf by the serfs and slavelings tied Is taken to pamper a foreigner's pride-- There is our suffering Fatherland. Where broad rivers flow 'neath a glorious sky, And the valleys like gems of emerald lie; Yet, the young men, and strong men, starve and die, For want of bread in their own rich land. And we pile up their corses, heap on heap, While the pale mothers faint, and the children weep; Yet, the living might envy the dead their sleep, So bitter is life in that mourning land. Oh! Heaven ne'er looked on a sadder scene; Earth shuddered to hear that such woe had been; Then we prayed, in despair, to a foreign queen, For leave to live on our own fair land. We have wept till our faces are pale and wan; We have knelt to a throne till our strength is gone; We prayed to our masters, but, one by one, They laughed to scorn our suffering land; And sent forth their minions, with cannon and steel, Swearing with fierce, unholy zeal, To trample us down with an iron heel, If we dared but to murmur our just demand.-- Know ye not now our Fatherland? What! are there no MEN in your Fatherland, To confront the tyrant's stormy glare, With a scorn as deep as the wrongs ye bear, With defiance as fierce as the oaths they sware, With vengeance as wild as the cries of despair, That rise from your suffering Fatherland? Are there no SWORDS in your Fatherland, To smite down the proud, insulting foe, With the strength of despair give blow for blow Till the blood of the baffled murderers flow On the trampled soil of your outraged land? Are your right arms weak in that land of slaves, That ye stand by your murdered brothers' graves, Yet tremble like coward and crouching knaves, To strike for freedom and Fatherland? Oh! had ye faith in your Fatherland, In God, your Cause, and your own right hand, Ye would go forth as saints to the holy fight, Go in the strength of eternal right, Go in the conquering Godhead's might-- And save or AVENGE your Fatherland!

Passing this wonderful URL along from another list -- Subject: Surname search, UK & Ireland http://genealogysearch.org/search/ukireland.html You owe it to yourself to check out the above URL. I found, among much other interesting information, the recollections of a Mrs. Kavanagh, 29 Boundary Place London Rd., Liverpool, who was born 31 Oct 1805 in a village five miles from Athy in Co. Kildare. Her story was published in the "Liverpool Echo" 1908. She tells of the terrible plague of Asiatic cholera that visited Liverpool in 1849 and raged around her. There is a second published recollection from the same year from a Liverpudlian about the docks and shipping. There is also good information about Liverpool churches, much more on many other UK and Ireland locations. . Mrs. Kavanagh's recollections: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~liverpool/centenarian.html

I am hoping that someone out there may know of some Irish bookstores that handle out-of-print books. I am trying to get a copy of the book THE MAGEES OF BELFAST & DUBLIN by F.J. Bigger printed in 1916. I contacted Amazon.com and Barnes & noble here in the US and Kenny's Bookstores in Ireland but neither have any. My g-g-grandmother was one of those "Magee's of Dublin". I'd lilke to learn more about her. I've been told her family is talked about in that book. Michelle Wilson-VT. micpaint@pshift.com FARLEY, MAGEE, WELLS, LEMON, ADAMS, QUINNELL, McMILLAN, TUKE, MORRIS, MUNDALL

William Butler Yeats was born in 1865 at Georgeville, Sandymouth Avenue, Dublin, and was the first child of John Butler Yeats and Susan Mary Pollenfex Yeats. The Yeats family produced many family member who distinguished themselves in the arts including his William's artist father, his well-known artist brother, John Butler Jr. (Jack), and and his sisters whose fine embroidery has survived. The Yeats family was often in Co. Sligo, where William's maternal grandparents lived. William loved to hear the old stories and superstitions such as the dreaded fear of fairies stealing away children if their parents were not vigilent. The Yeats family later moved to London. In 1923, William Butler Yeats won the Nobel Prize for literature. Although William died in the south of France in 1939, his body was reinterred at Drumcliff, Co. Sligo, as per his wishes, where he and his siblings had spent many happy hours in the beautiful west of Ireland. This poem is about the Glencar waterfall of Co. Leitrim, a county which borders Co. Sligo. THE STOLEN CHILD Where dips the rocky highland Of Sleuth Wood in the lake, There lies a leafy island Where flapping herons wake The drowsy water-rats; There we've hid our faery vats, Full of berries And of reddest stolen cherries. "Come away, O human child! To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand, For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand." Where the wave of moonlight glosses The dim grey sands with light, Far off by furthest Rosses We foot it all the night, Weaving olden dances, Mingling hands and mingling glances Till the moon has taken flight; To and fro we leap And chase the frothy bubbles, While the world is full of troubles And is anxious in its sleep. "Come away, O human child! To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand, For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand." Where the wandering water gushes >From the hills above Glen-Car, In pools among the rushes that scarce could bathe a star, We seek for slumbering trout And whispering in their ears Give them unquiet dreams; Leaning softly out >From ferns that drop their tears Over the young streams. "Come away, O human child! To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand, For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand." Away with us he's going, The solemn-eyed; He'll hear no more the lowing Of the calves on the warm hillside Or the kettle on the hob Sing peace into his breast, Or see the brown mice bob Round and round the oatmeal-chest. "For he comes, the human child, To the waters and the wild With a faery, hand in hand, >From a world more full of weeping than he can understand." -- William Butler Yeats, 1889

DONKEYS They are not silent like work-horses Who are happy or indifferent about the plow and wagon; Donkey's don't submit like that For they are sensitive And cry continually under their burdens; Yes, they are animals of sensibility Even if they aren't intelligent enough To count money or discuss religion. Laugh if you will when they hee-haw But know that they are crying When they make that noise that sounds like something Between a squawking water-pump and a fog-horn. And when I hear them sobbing I suddenly notice their sweet eyes and ridiculous ears And their naive bodies that look as though they never grew up But stayed children, as in fact they are; And being misunderstood as children often are They are forced to walk up mountains With men and bundles on their backs. Somehow I am glad That they do not submit without a protest; But as their masters are of the deafest The wails are never heard. I am sure that donkeys know what life should be But alas, they do not own their bodies; and if they had their own way, I am sure That they would sit in a field of flowers Kissing each other, and maybe They would even invite us to join them. For they never let us forget that they know (As everyone knows who stays as sweet as children) That there is a far better way to spend time; You can be sure of that when they stop in their tracks And honk and honk and honk. And if I tried to explain to them Why work is not only necessary but good, I am afraid that they would never understand And kick me with their back legs As commentary on my wisdom. So they remain unhappy and sob And their masters who are equally convinced of being right Beat them and hear nothing. -- "Donkey" from "Stand Up, Friend With Me," by Edward Field, 1963. Edward Field was born in 1924 in NYC, contributed regularly to the "Evergreen Review." Donkeys have been an intregal part of Ireland - perhaps, Mr. Field has Irish roots?

Greetings of the day to all of you. Do hope that SKS can help me with this little predicament that I am in at the moment. On the 1851 Channel Islands census index there is an Ann Haywood, age 62, born in U.S.A. She is living with her daughter Sarah, age 24, b. Ireland and son Thomas, age 22, b. England. On the 1861 Channel Islands census index Ann is living with another daughter, son-in-law and family and is listed as a widow. The daughter that Ann is living with is called Aley Alice Winnett Buttery (nee Heywood), age 37, and is listed as b. Ireland. Notice the difference in surname spelling. Would SKS have any information on Aley and Sarah during their time living in Ireland and also on Ann's husband? I have a suspicion that the name Aley is another form of Alice. As Aley was my g.grandmother, I would like to get a copy of her birth certificate. Needless to say I would appreciate knowing where she was born. Many thanks in appreciation. Regards. Joan. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Seeking information relating to two Protestant families who emigrated from Dunkerrin, King's County to Australia in 1854. John ABBOTT was post boy, post runner, and owned property and would appear to be in a reasonable financial position. He had eight children born in Dunkerrin, three of which died at an early age. The remainder of the family emigrated - although it would appear that they did not suffer too greatly from the potato famine. Maybe they went because of continual friction between the Protestants and Catholics. Mary HODGINS, his wife, was the daughter of George & Ann (ELLIS). Either her father or one of her brothers was Sexton at the Dunkerrin C/I church. We would appreciate hearing if anyone is researching either of these families, especially during the period before 1837. Leslie & Lorraine Shephard Western Australia.

Would anyone know where I might possibly locate a book called THE MAGEE'S OF BELFAST and DUBLIN byF.J Bigger (1916)? This may be out of print. I contacted Kenny's Bookshop in Galway and they said they do not have any in stock. Thanks... Michelle Wilson-VT. micpaint@pshift.com FARLEY. MAGEE, LEMON, ADAMS, McMILLAN, WELLS, MORRIS, TUKE, MUNDALL, QUIINNELL, GLOVER