This was posted to the Irish American mailing list by Jerry Kelly and he has given me permission to post it to this list. It is not to be passed on to other lists without his permission, however, due to copywrite laws. Thank you. That's a tough one. You've moved to Scottish clan relationships which I don't really know or understand, but let me share what I can in hope it will be helpful. * sept is an English word deriving as far as I know from the French word sept for 'seven'. It's been used in Ireland to describe kinship groups since the middle ages. I'm guessing the Normans chose the word because it reflected the fact that certain well-known Irish tribes like the Laois were divided into 7 sub-tribes, clans, or dynasties. * The great 20th century Irish genealogist Edward MacLysaght liked to use the word sept rather than clan when he talked about Irish kinship groups because he didn't want the word clan to make people think they were dealing with a Scottish clan or a Scottish-style clan. There seems to be a difference between Scottish clan structure and Irish clans and tribes, but I'm no expert on Scottish kinship groups so, in honesty, I don't know what these differences are. But I do think I've noticed that at least some Scottish clan/sept relationships are based on political alliance rather than blood. For example, are the Hutchinsons as a sept of the McDonnell clan actually descended from the McDonnell clan, a blood branch of it? In the Irish system, a sept or clan always descends in blood from its tribe, even if they wound up with a false genealogy to prove it as sometimes occurred. For example, the Cinéal Chonaill ('Kinship of Conall') are actually part of the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt ! ('Descendants of Niall in the North') because they actually descend from Niall. * with regard to how clans and tribes (or septs if that word is preferred) were formed, it was very much like the Nike commercial - "Just do it!" In the case of my ancestor Conall son of Niall of the Nine Hostages, he and his brothers decided to invade what is now western Ulster. This was mid-5th century A.D. They, like their father, were members of the Connachta who, within the last couple of hundred years had conquered the west of Ireland and placed their own tribe-name on that part of Ireland. So, as part of the invasion plan for western Ulster, Conall and his followers took what is now Tír Chonaill ('Land of Conall', aka Co. Donegal). Conall and his immediate descendants immediately formed the Cinéal Chonaill ('Kinship of Conall') to rule their newly-conquered land, electing their own rí or king. Conall's brother Eoghan and his followers took what is now Tír Eoghain ('Land of Eoghan', aka Co. Tyrone in English). Eoghan and his immediate descendants immediately fo! rmed the Cinéal Eoghain ('Kinship of Eoghain') to rule their new land, electing their own rí or king. As card-carrying members of the Connachta, they continued to owe allegiance to the king of the Connachta, no doubt helping to elect him, but in time their own lineage of the Uí Néill ('Descendants of Niall') rivalled and then surpassed that of the Connachta, at which point the Uí Néill ceased to be part of the Connachta politically, although their descent naturally continued to be recognized. And so on clan by clan, tribe by tribe, across Ireland. * the Irish words used to designate a clan or a tribe are many. At the front of the tribe or clan name you find indicators like Cinéal ('kinship'), Uí ('descendants'), Dál ('share'), Clann ('children'), Tuath ('people'), Muintir ('people'), Síol ('seed'), Corcu (perhaps 'seed' - a word so ancient that nobody is really sure anymore), etc. At the end of an ancestor's name (especially at the end of an ancestor-god's name), you can find -raighe ('people of the god ..X...'), -ne or -ni ('collective descendants of the god...X..'), or -achta ('descendants of the god or ancestor-hero ...X...), etc. * Generation-by-generation Irish genealogies are typically accurate back to the late 5th century A.D. unless they've been tampered with for political purposes. For example, the genealogies of the Dál gCais are only accurate generation-by-generation as far back as about the 7th century. That's because they were tampered with to give the Dál gCais a false Eoghanacht genealogy in order to justify the Dál gCais taking the Kinship of Munster. But whether we're talking about generation-by-generation genealogies going back to the 5th century or to the 7th century, that's still a lot further back than any other family on the face of the planet except one. Only the Japanese imperial family can match the age and accuracy of the typical Irish person's genealogy once that Gael has tapped into his/her clan or tribe's dynastic line. * But Irish genealogies don't stop at the 5th century A.D. Although no longer accurate generation-by-generation, they're still accurate clan by clan or tribe by tribe (unless tampered with for political purposes). For example, the tribal genealogy of the Ó Domhnaill ('O'Donnell') dynasty of Donegal is as follows: Ó Domhnaill ('O'Donnell') is descended from the Clann Dálaigh, which is descended from the Cinéal Chonaill (rising in the 5th century A.D.), which is descended from the Uí Néill In Tuaiscirt, which is descended from the Uí Néill, which is descended from the Connachta (rising in the 2nd-3rd century A.D.?), which is descended from the Féni (rising at about the time of Christ?) Note that this genealogy is tribe by tribe, not generation by generation, so that's why it's called a tribal genealogy rather than the generation-by-generation genealogy you're used to. * By the time you hit the Féni you're back to around the time of Christ, and that's one of the short ones. Tribal genealogies of the Laighin families (like the Caomhánach or 'Kavanagh' family) appear to go back to the 3rd to 1st centuries B.C. Tribal genealogies of the Érainn families (like the Ó Ceallaigh or 'Kelly' family of the Corcu Luighde) seem to go back to the 5th-3rd centuries B.C. Tribal genealogies of the Cruithin families (like the Mag Aonghusa or 'Guinness' family) appear to go back to the 8th-5th centuries B.C. * Sometimes it's even possible to trace an Irish family back on a tribal basis to before they got to Ireland. But that's another story. Hope that's helpful. Best, - Jerry -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus