> > > tell me what you know of the religious census records, please. years, locales, dates, etc > From: Irish Records, Sources for Family and Local History by James Ryan "In several dioceses and in some parishes, censuses of parishioners were taken, in some cases for ecclesiatical administration purposes and in others for security reasons (since Catholic or 'popish' was at many times in Irish history equated to 'rebel'). The censuses vary widely in quality and accuracy. Copies are held in various archives and have been published in several sources. Perhaps the largest such census was commissioned in 1766, when each Church of Ireland minister was requested to provide a listing of the members of each denomination in his parish. Although some were completed as requested, many ministers provided only the details on Church of Ireland parishioners, and omitted Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. Others provided a complete survey of all local inhabitants, including family names and the numbers of children in the household." John Grenham adds in his, Tracing Your Irish Ancestors: "...All of the original returns were lost in 1922, but extensive transcripts survive for some areas and are deposited with various institutions. The only full listing of all surviving transcripts and abstracts is in the National Archives reading room on the open shelves. The following is from both Grenham and Ryan books (they actually differ) and is a listing of existing records for the 1766 census, by county and parish (civil), LDS Family history film # if noted: Antrim: Ahoghill, Ballynure LDS film #1279330; Ballintoy #258517 Armagh: Creggan, #100173 Cavan: Kinawley, Lavey, Lurgan, Munterconnaught, #258517, 100173 Cork: Aghabulloge, Aghada, Ardagh, Ballintemple, Ballyhay, Ballynoe, Carrigdownane, Carrigrohanebeg, Castlelyons, Castletownroche, Churchtown, Clenor, Clondrohid, Clondulane, Clonfert, Clonmeen, Clonmult, Clonpriest, Cloyne, Coole, Farahy, Garrycloyne, Glanworth, Grenagh, Ightermurragh, Imphrick, Inishcarra, Kildorrery, Kilmahon, Kilmichael, Kilnamartry, Kilshannig, Kilworth, Knockmourne, Lisgoold, Litter, Macroney, Macroom, Magourney, Mallow, Marshalstown, Matehy, Middleton, Mogeely, Moureabbey, Rathbarry, Ringrone, Roskeen, Shandrum, St Nathlash, Templemologa, Whitechurch, Youghal film #'s: 101781, 100173 Derry: Artrea, Desertlyn, Magherafelt, Bovevagh, Derryloran, Desertmartin, Ballynascreen, Banagher, Dungiven, Drumachose, Comber, Donaghedy, Inch; # 258517, 100173, 1279330 Donegal: Donaghmore, Derry Down: Kilbroney, Seapatrick, Lurgan, Inch, Shankill; #1279330 Dublin: Crumlin, Castleknock; #258517 Fermanagh: Derryvullan, Devenish, Kinawley, Rossory, Boho; #100193, 100173, 258517 Kildare: Ballybought, Ballymore-Eustace, Clonaghlis, Coghlanstown, Tipperkevin, Yeaganstown, Kilrush, Ballycommon; #0100173 Kilkenny: Portnascully; #100158 Laois: Lea; #258517 Limerick: Abington, Ardcanny, Cahiromey, Cahirelly, Carrigparson, Clonkeen, Kilkellane, Tuough, Clonagh, Croagh, Dondaniel, Kilscannel, Nantinan, Rathkeale; #258517; Limerick Diocese; #100212 Longford: Abbeylara, Russagh; #258517 Louth: Ardee, Ballymachkinny, Beaulieu, Carlingford, Charlestown, Clonkeehan, Creegan, Darver, Drogheda, Dromiskin, Kildemock, Kileshiel, Louth, Mapastown, Phillipstown, Shanlis, Smarmore, Stickallen, Tallonstown, Termonfecken, Creggan; #990411, 1279330 Meath: Ardbraccan, Churchtown, Liscartan, Martry, Rataine; #258517, 100173 Offaly: Ballycommon; #100173, 258517 Tipperary: Ardmayle, Athassel, Ballintemple, Ballingarry, Ballygriffin, Ballysheehan, Boytonrath, Brickendown, Bruis, Cashel, Castletownarra, Clerihan, Clonbeg, Cloneen, Clonoulty, Cloonbulloge, Clonpet, Colman, CordanGan, Corrogue, Cullen, Dangandargan, Drum, Ballycahill, Templebeg, Duntryleague, Erry, Fethard, Crompes, Coolmunddry, Gaile, Grean, Horeabbey, Killardry, Killbrugh, Killea, Kilconnell, Kilfeacle, Killevinogue, Knockgraffon, Killnerath, Kiltynan, Lattin, Magorban, Mealiffe, New Chapel, Oughterliege, Pepperstown, Railstown, Rathcoole, Rathleyny, Relickmurry, Redcity, Shronell, Solloghodmore, Solloghodbeg, Templemore, Templeneiry, Templenoe, Tipperary, Toom, Toon, Donaghill, Uskeane, Youghalarra; #100213, 100224 (many of these are transcribed and on http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip/records.htm) Tyrone: Aghalow, Arrea, Carnteel, Derryloran, Drumglass, Dungannon, Kildress, Tullyniskan, Donaghendry, Errigal Keerogue: #258517 Waterford: Killoteran, Waterford City; #100158 Westmeath: Russagh; #258517 Wexford: Ballynaslaney, Edermine; #258517 Wicklow: Ballymaslaney, Dunganstown, Rathdrum, Drumkay, Kilpoole, Rathnew; #100173, 258517 The above information was taken from both cited books and at times the books don't agree. I have listed all the parishes from both books even if they were only in one book and not the other. Some of the censuses only cover Protestants, so just Catholic, some all. You won't know unless you check a resource book or the film. Before ordering the film, please to the the FamilySearch.org website and check exactly what is on the film. Not all parishes listed are on the film mentioned. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

Please, if you find some of these links no longer work, please let the list know. County Roscommon Assorted Census records 1901 http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Sligo 1901 census http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlsli/finnsearch.html County Tipperary 1799 unofficial census of Carrick (partial) http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/1799_carrick.htm 1821 census fragments http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/census_1821.htm 1901 & 1911 census extracts http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip2/Census/ County Westmeath Assorted census records 1901 http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Wexford Assorted census records 1901 http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Wicklow Arklow parish census records, 1901, 1911 http://www.cmcrp.net/Wicklow/Wicklcen1.htm -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

dear pat, i will give it to you, you are a dilligent one. i am no newcomer to this...been to ireland, copied thousands of documents( the mormon church is waiting on my paperwork for one name and all the surrounding documents). great-greargrandparents -william tait and easther brown. 1815 circa-birth- ireland. anyway, tell me what you know of the religious census records, please. years, locales, dates, etc. and/or do any undertakers/morticians/ records exist? on the names tait/taye/taitt/taite, etc! and brown/browne, etc. thanks, j.tait, one of the gr-gr-grandchildren of william tait and easther brown. as far as "helping" is concerned, i can list 16 different families ( of the name tait/tate, etc. not related to me) that i have helped (with my records) find their roots in ireland, scotland , america and canada.

Wow - what a history lesson!!. You really know your stuff !! Although I find all these explanations quite confusing, I also find it very interesting. To be so knowledgeable is quite fascinating to me. I doubt that I'll ever get my family genealogy back that far in time to do me any good (I'm struggling with the 1830'S) but it certainly is worth saving just for the reading experience . Go raibh síochán orainn go léir / May peace be on us all, Researching : MAGOONAUGH, MCGOONA, MCGONEY,MAGONAUGH, MEERS, HART/HURT NANCY ----- Original Message ----- From: "ConnorsGenealogy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 11:40 AM Subject: [ROLL CALL] Administrative units from the Celts on > This was originally posted to the Irish American mailing list and with > Jerry Kelly's permission, I am passing on.... > > You've asked a good but very complicated question. The model of late > German history whereby indigenous local lords made a decisive choice of > religion for their populations doesn't really apply in Ireland. Instead, > go back to early German history to pick up the right model. > > For example, take the area around Koln (Cologne). As you know, history > starts there with the Celts. If I remember right, the Treveri held that > area with their own Celtic religion and political organization centered at > Treveri headquarters, now called the city of Trier but including the land > west of the Rhine around what's now Koln/Cologne. Then the > German-speaking Ubii came in with their own religion and promptly set up > their own administrative unit, the Oppidum Ubiorum ('The Fortress Town of > the Altar of the Ubii'). Then the Romans came in with their own religion > and promptly set up their own administrative unit, COLONIA CLAUDIA ARA > AGRIPPINENSIUM ('the colony of Claudius under the protection of > Agrippina'). Then the Franks came in with their own religion and > administrative unit (the Frankish Kingdom), didn't like walking around > saying COLONIA CLAUDIA ARA AGRIPPINENSIUM because it took all day to say, > so they shortened the name to Cologne in English and French or Koln ! > in German. > So, what I'm trying to say is, each of these successive invasions or > population groups brought in their own religion and administrative unit. > The same thing happened in Ireland. Let's take a look at the > administrative units of the invasions or population groups of Ireland in > order beginning with the Celts. > > 1. CELTS > > In Ireland in the early historic period (say 5th century AD), the major > Celtic population groups are the Cruithin, Érainn, Laighin, and Féni. By > the 5th-6th centuries AD, the Uí Néill of the Féni have created the > concept of the High-Kingship of Ireland. By the 7th century AD, all the > Celtic population groups of Ireland are speaking Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic) > and their genealogies have been melded by the Uí Néill for propaganda and > political purposes into a single population group called the Gaeil. The > Uí Néill claim the kingship of all the Gaeil, and therefore of all of > Ireland, and therefore it's essential that every inhabitant of Ireland be > considered a member of the Gaeil, otherwise the Uí Néill claim of kingship > over all of Ireland is invalid. So, by the 7th century AD, the Uí Néill > have used genealogy to create and rule the Kingdom of Ireland, the biggest > administrative unit of an island made up of hundreds of sub-kingdoms and > tribal kingdoms. This Kingdom of Ireland w! > as ceded in its entirety by the High-King Ruairt Ó Conchobhair with a > sword literally at his throat to the Norman king Henry II in the 12th > century (easy to check the date), which is how the Kingdom of Ireland with > one stroke became part of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, > (Wales), and Ireland, from which United Kingdom most of Ireland broke away > in the early 20th century. The resulting administrative units are the > Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The latter remains part of the > United Kingdom. > Now let's look at the smallest administrative unit - the baile fearainn. > The word baile in Irish Gaelic means both 'home' and 'town'. A baile > fearainn is out in the country (or it used to be out in the country). > Nevertheless, an English speaker will translate it typically as a > 'town-land' even if there's no town in sight. But an Irish-speaker will > think of baile fearainn as meaning literally a 'home of land'. In other > words, to an Irish-speaker, it's just about the smallest place you can > come from - your own little piece of land, your own home. So, if you're > thinking in terms of administrative units, it's the administrative unit > which in the early Gaelic period was based on the extended family. > > The extended family of a baile fearainn belong to a clann or tribe. So my > family's baile fearainn of Ard Ua gCeallaigh ('the height of the > O'Kellys') is part of the Tír ('land') of my tribe. My tribe is the Uí > Fhiachrach Muaidhe ('the descendants of Fiachra on the river Moy'). Our > land is the Tír Fhiachrach ('Land of Fiachra'). When the Cambro-Normans > came in the 12-13th centuries and later the English came in the 16-17th > centuries, they couldn't say that or spell it, so they called our Tír > Fhiachrach the 'Barony of Tireragh.' Almost all of the so-called > 'baronies' of Ireland are based on ancient Gaelic clann and tribe-lands, > and most of their English names are bad phonetic attempts at the original > Irish Gaelic names. > > 2. CHRISTIANS > > Christianity came to Ireland big-time in the 5th-7th centuries A.D., not > as an invasion but as a conversion. The Irish Christians who followed > Rome in this early period tried to set up a Roman / Gaullish diocesan > system of church organization like that envisioned by Patrick. But > because all the rest of Ireland was running on a tribal kingdom basis, it > didn't work very well until the dioceses were laid out to match the > boundaries of the many tribal sub-kingdoms. Which is the way almost all > of the dioceses are still laid out today. > > The Christians who tried to follow Roman practice also tried to lay out > paruchia (which gives us the word parish as far as I know), but that > didn't work very well in this period either. They were far outnumbered by > the Christian Irish who liked to organize things on the monastic system, > and those Irish liked the monastic system because it could easily be set > up on the clan system. So specific clans or tribes took over the > ownership and operation of each of the monasteries and related schools, > libraries, churches, convents, etc. Although celibacy was highly > respected as a mark of special sanctity in the Celtic churches of Ireland, > Scotland, and Wales, marriage by the clergy was far more common. In > Ireland, polygamy was lawful under Brehon law, for both lay and cleric, > male and female, and all children of any union were legitimate. (There is > no concept of bastardry under Brehon Law.) Church leaders in Ireland > working towards re-establishing communion with Rome in the 9th! > -11th centuries had a hard time persuading monks and nuns to limit > themselves to a single spouse given that all the Biblical patriarchs had > multiple wives. So there was always a large, new, educated generation > ready, willing, and enabled to step into the family business of running > and staffing the monastery, and related schools, libraries, churches, > convents, etc., and that (in my opinion) is the main reason why Ireland > far outshone the rest of Europe in this period as a 'Land Of Saints & > Scholars.' We had a far more efficient system in place to generate that > depth, breadth, and volume of quality ecclesiastic. At any rate, that's > the way things stayed until Henry VIII of England confiscated the > monasteries in the 16th century and the government of James VI of Scotland > (James I of England) finally eradicated Brehon Law in Ireland in 1608. > There were other major differences between the Roman Catholic Church of > the time and the Celtic churches of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. The > Celtic countries had a different liturgy for the mass, different tonsure > (haircut) for the monks, the tendency of Irish monasteries to regularly go > to war against each other (this was, after all, a warrior society to which > Christianity had been appended), a different date for Easter, the tendency > on the part of the Irish and Scots to call Christ 'my druid', etc., etc., > etc. Smaller differences than these still keep the Eastern Orthodox, > Coptic, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran Churches separated, so these > differences were understandably regarded as schismatic. > 3. VIKINGS > > When the Vikings came (8th-10th centuries A.D.), they saw 4 major kingdoms > subject to a High-King over all of Ireland. These 4 major kingdoms were > Uladh, Laighin, Mumhan, and Connachta. The Viking word for a place > is -ster, so they called the first three of these kingdoms Uladh-ster > ('Ulster'), Laighin-ster ('Leinster'), and Mumhan-ster ('Munster'). The > Vikings didn't make any headway in Connacht so that was the end of -ster > there. But in the rest of Ireland, it was the Vikings who founded the > towns which became the cities of Ireland - Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, > Cork, Limerick, etc., and these have become the administrative centers for > their surrounding countrysides. > > 4. CAMBRO-NORMANS (I.E., NORMANS FROM WALES) > > Around 1154 or so (easy to check the date), the English pope Adrian IV > asked the King of England (the Norman Henry II, who was also the King of > Normandy and Aquitaine and Anjou if I remember correctly) to invade > Ireland in order to bring the Irish church back into full communion with > Rome and eliminate its schismatic practices. Adrian wanted religion. > Henry wanted more land. So in 1169, with the blessing of Adrian IV, Henry > II encouraged Strongbow to invade Ireland and soon followed him. The > Norman French and Welsh-speaking knights of the Cambro-Norman invasion > soon began to set up a 'shire' system based as I understand it on the > Anglo-Saxon shire system of England, for which they used the French word > which eventually turns into the word 'county.' So this is the beginning > of the county system in Ireland. Because the Cambro-Normans and their > successors the English didn't really get effective control on the ground > everywhere in Ireland until the 17th century, the full c! > ounty system of 32 counties didn't come into existence until the 17th (?) > century - easy enough to check the exact date. > > Henry II and his Cambro-Normans brought the Irish back into the Roman > Catholic Church more fully than they had been since the time of Patrick. > In areas controlled by the French-speaking Normans, all religious practice > was strictly in keeping with Roman Catholic practice of that time. In > areas controlled by the Irish, the Irish continued to follow Brehon Law in > a number of areas. The monasteries and churches were still owned and > operated by the ecclesiastical families, who continued to marry and > produce ecclesiastics on a prodigious scale. But other issues like the > dating of Easter, tonsure, and liturgy had been resolved. Eventually, > however, as the Normans became 'More Irish than the Irish themselves' in > language, law, and mindset, the Brehon Law approach to staffing the > monasteries and churches re-asserted itself even in the 'Norman' areas. > > 5. ENGLISH > > The English conquered Ireland fully and effectively in 1603. By that > time, almost all of the English in England had gone Protestant and almost > all of the Irish had stayed Roman Catholic. The English of the Protestant > Reformation then proceeded to set up their administrative units in Ireland > (Protestant dioceses, poor law unions, parishes, etc.) while the Irish of > the Roman Catholic Counter-Reformation countered with their own > administrative units (Roman Catholic dioceses, parishes, etc.). > 6. OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS > > I hope I didn't leave anybody out from an administrative perspective. > From an ethnic, cultural, and linguistic perspective, we also have the > Welsh-speaking Welsh of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Flemish-speaking > Flemish of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Breton-speaking Bretons of the > Cambro-Norman invasion, the Cornish-speaking Cornish of the Cambro-Norman > invasion, the Gaelic-speaking Manx who wander in from time to time, the > Gaelic-speaking gall-óglaigh ('galloglasses') from the western isles of > what is now Scotland in the 13th-15th centuries, the > Irish-and-Scottish-Gaelic-speaking Highland Scots coming in especially > with the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th century, the > Irish-and-Scottish-Gaelic-speaking Galloway Scots coming in especially > with the Plantation of Ulster, the lowland Scots and border clans like my > ancestors the Armstrongs speaking their distinctive Lallans or Lowlands > dialect of Northumbrian Anglish coming in especially with the Plantation > of Ulster, an! > d the German-speaking Palatines of the 17th-18th (?) centuries (are those > dates correct?). And of course the new linguistic and ethnic groups from > all over the world who have come to Ireland since Ireland joined the > Common Market / EC / EU in 1973. But from an administrative point of > view, I think 1-5 above are the main contributors. > > Hope that's helpful, and I hope I haven't forgotten any of the clans, > tribes, and population groups of Ireland. Go raibh síochán orainn go léir > / May peace be on us all, - Jerry > > > > > ==== IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS Mailing List ==== > To Unsubcribe from L: mailto:[email protected] > To Unsubscribe from D: mailto:[email protected] > Put the single word 'unsubscribe' in the message subject and body > >

This was originally posted to the Irish American mailing list and with Jerry Kelly's permission, I am passing on.... You've asked a good but very complicated question. The model of late German history whereby indigenous local lords made a decisive choice of religion for their populations doesn't really apply in Ireland. Instead, go back to early German history to pick up the right model. For example, take the area around Koln (Cologne). As you know, history starts there with the Celts. If I remember right, the Treveri held that area with their own Celtic religion and political organization centered at Treveri headquarters, now called the city of Trier but including the land west of the Rhine around what's now Koln/Cologne. Then the German-speaking Ubii came in with their own religion and promptly set up their own administrative unit, the Oppidum Ubiorum ('The Fortress Town of the Altar of the Ubii'). Then the Romans came in with their own religion and promptly set up their own administrative unit, COLONIA CLAUDIA ARA AGRIPPINENSIUM ('the colony of Claudius under the protection of Agrippina'). Then the Franks came in with their own religion and administrative unit (the Frankish Kingdom), didn't like walking around saying COLONIA CLAUDIA ARA AGRIPPINENSIUM because it took all day to say, so they shortened the name to Cologne in English and French or Koln ! in German. So, what I'm trying to say is, each of these successive invasions or population groups brought in their own religion and administrative unit. The same thing happened in Ireland. Let's take a look at the administrative units of the invasions or population groups of Ireland in order beginning with the Celts. 1. CELTS In Ireland in the early historic period (say 5th century AD), the major Celtic population groups are the Cruithin, Érainn, Laighin, and Féni. By the 5th-6th centuries AD, the Uí Néill of the Féni have created the concept of the High-Kingship of Ireland. By the 7th century AD, all the Celtic population groups of Ireland are speaking Gaeilge (Irish Gaelic) and their genealogies have been melded by the Uí Néill for propaganda and political purposes into a single population group called the Gaeil. The Uí Néill claim the kingship of all the Gaeil, and therefore of all of Ireland, and therefore it's essential that every inhabitant of Ireland be considered a member of the Gaeil, otherwise the Uí Néill claim of kingship over all of Ireland is invalid. So, by the 7th century AD, the Uí Néill have used genealogy to create and rule the Kingdom of Ireland, the biggest administrative unit of an island made up of hundreds of sub-kingdoms and tribal kingdoms. This Kingdom of Ireland w! as ceded in its entirety by the High-King Ruairt Ó Conchobhair with a sword literally at his throat to the Norman king Henry II in the 12th century (easy to check the date), which is how the Kingdom of Ireland with one stroke became part of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, (Wales), and Ireland, from which United Kingdom most of Ireland broke away in the early 20th century. The resulting administrative units are the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. The latter remains part of the United Kingdom. Now let's look at the smallest administrative unit - the baile fearainn. The word baile in Irish Gaelic means both 'home' and 'town'. A baile fearainn is out in the country (or it used to be out in the country). Nevertheless, an English speaker will translate it typically as a 'town-land' even if there's no town in sight. But an Irish-speaker will think of baile fearainn as meaning literally a 'home of land'. In other words, to an Irish-speaker, it's just about the smallest place you can come from - your own little piece of land, your own home. So, if you're thinking in terms of administrative units, it's the administrative unit which in the early Gaelic period was based on the extended family. The extended family of a baile fearainn belong to a clann or tribe. So my family's baile fearainn of Ard Ua gCeallaigh ('the height of the O'Kellys') is part of the Tír ('land') of my tribe. My tribe is the Uí Fhiachrach Muaidhe ('the descendants of Fiachra on the river Moy'). Our land is the Tír Fhiachrach ('Land of Fiachra'). When the Cambro-Normans came in the 12-13th centuries and later the English came in the 16-17th centuries, they couldn't say that or spell it, so they called our Tír Fhiachrach the 'Barony of Tireragh.' Almost all of the so-called 'baronies' of Ireland are based on ancient Gaelic clann and tribe-lands, and most of their English names are bad phonetic attempts at the original Irish Gaelic names. 2. CHRISTIANS Christianity came to Ireland big-time in the 5th-7th centuries A.D., not as an invasion but as a conversion. The Irish Christians who followed Rome in this early period tried to set up a Roman / Gaullish diocesan system of church organization like that envisioned by Patrick. But because all the rest of Ireland was running on a tribal kingdom basis, it didn't work very well until the dioceses were laid out to match the boundaries of the many tribal sub-kingdoms. Which is the way almost all of the dioceses are still laid out today. The Christians who tried to follow Roman practice also tried to lay out paruchia (which gives us the word parish as far as I know), but that didn't work very well in this period either. They were far outnumbered by the Christian Irish who liked to organize things on the monastic system, and those Irish liked the monastic system because it could easily be set up on the clan system. So specific clans or tribes took over the ownership and operation of each of the monasteries and related schools, libraries, churches, convents, etc. Although celibacy was highly respected as a mark of special sanctity in the Celtic churches of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales, marriage by the clergy was far more common. In Ireland, polygamy was lawful under Brehon law, for both lay and cleric, male and female, and all children of any union were legitimate. (There is no concept of bastardry under Brehon Law.) Church leaders in Ireland working towards re-establishing communion with Rome in the 9th! -11th centuries had a hard time persuading monks and nuns to limit themselves to a single spouse given that all the Biblical patriarchs had multiple wives. So there was always a large, new, educated generation ready, willing, and enabled to step into the family business of running and staffing the monastery, and related schools, libraries, churches, convents, etc., and that (in my opinion) is the main reason why Ireland far outshone the rest of Europe in this period as a 'Land Of Saints & Scholars.' We had a far more efficient system in place to generate that depth, breadth, and volume of quality ecclesiastic. At any rate, that's the way things stayed until Henry VIII of England confiscated the monasteries in the 16th century and the government of James VI of Scotland (James I of England) finally eradicated Brehon Law in Ireland in 1608. There were other major differences between the Roman Catholic Church of the time and the Celtic churches of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales. The Celtic countries had a different liturgy for the mass, different tonsure (haircut) for the monks, the tendency of Irish monasteries to regularly go to war against each other (this was, after all, a warrior society to which Christianity had been appended), a different date for Easter, the tendency on the part of the Irish and Scots to call Christ 'my druid', etc., etc., etc. Smaller differences than these still keep the Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Roman Catholic, and Lutheran Churches separated, so these differences were understandably regarded as schismatic. 3. VIKINGS When the Vikings came (8th-10th centuries A.D.), they saw 4 major kingdoms subject to a High-King over all of Ireland. These 4 major kingdoms were Uladh, Laighin, Mumhan, and Connachta. The Viking word for a place is -ster, so they called the first three of these kingdoms Uladh-ster ('Ulster'), Laighin-ster ('Leinster'), and Mumhan-ster ('Munster'). The Vikings didn't make any headway in Connacht so that was the end of -ster there. But in the rest of Ireland, it was the Vikings who founded the towns which became the cities of Ireland - Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Limerick, etc., and these have become the administrative centers for their surrounding countrysides. 4. CAMBRO-NORMANS (I.E., NORMANS FROM WALES) Around 1154 or so (easy to check the date), the English pope Adrian IV asked the King of England (the Norman Henry II, who was also the King of Normandy and Aquitaine and Anjou if I remember correctly) to invade Ireland in order to bring the Irish church back into full communion with Rome and eliminate its schismatic practices. Adrian wanted religion. Henry wanted more land. So in 1169, with the blessing of Adrian IV, Henry II encouraged Strongbow to invade Ireland and soon followed him. The Norman French and Welsh-speaking knights of the Cambro-Norman invasion soon began to set up a 'shire' system based as I understand it on the Anglo-Saxon shire system of England, for which they used the French word which eventually turns into the word 'county.' So this is the beginning of the county system in Ireland. Because the Cambro-Normans and their successors the English didn't really get effective control on the ground everywhere in Ireland until the 17th century, the full c! ounty system of 32 counties didn't come into existence until the 17th (?) century - easy enough to check the exact date. Henry II and his Cambro-Normans brought the Irish back into the Roman Catholic Church more fully than they had been since the time of Patrick. In areas controlled by the French-speaking Normans, all religious practice was strictly in keeping with Roman Catholic practice of that time. In areas controlled by the Irish, the Irish continued to follow Brehon Law in a number of areas. The monasteries and churches were still owned and operated by the ecclesiastical families, who continued to marry and produce ecclesiastics on a prodigious scale. But other issues like the dating of Easter, tonsure, and liturgy had been resolved. Eventually, however, as the Normans became 'More Irish than the Irish themselves' in language, law, and mindset, the Brehon Law approach to staffing the monasteries and churches re-asserted itself even in the 'Norman' areas. 5. ENGLISH The English conquered Ireland fully and effectively in 1603. By that time, almost all of the English in England had gone Protestant and almost all of the Irish had stayed Roman Catholic. The English of the Protestant Reformation then proceeded to set up their administrative units in Ireland (Protestant dioceses, poor law unions, parishes, etc.) while the Irish of the Roman Catholic Counter-Reformation countered with their own administrative units (Roman Catholic dioceses, parishes, etc.). 6. OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS I hope I didn't leave anybody out from an administrative perspective. From an ethnic, cultural, and linguistic perspective, we also have the Welsh-speaking Welsh of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Flemish-speaking Flemish of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Breton-speaking Bretons of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Cornish-speaking Cornish of the Cambro-Norman invasion, the Gaelic-speaking Manx who wander in from time to time, the Gaelic-speaking gall-óglaigh ('galloglasses') from the western isles of what is now Scotland in the 13th-15th centuries, the Irish-and-Scottish-Gaelic-speaking Highland Scots coming in especially with the Plantation of Ulster in the 17th century, the Irish-and-Scottish-Gaelic-speaking Galloway Scots coming in especially with the Plantation of Ulster, the lowland Scots and border clans like my ancestors the Armstrongs speaking their distinctive Lallans or Lowlands dialect of Northumbrian Anglish coming in especially with the Plantation of Ulster, an! d the German-speaking Palatines of the 17th-18th (?) centuries (are those dates correct?). And of course the new linguistic and ethnic groups from all over the world who have come to Ireland since Ireland joined the Common Market / EC / EU in 1973. But from an administrative point of view, I think 1-5 above are the main contributors. Hope that's helpful, and I hope I haven't forgotten any of the clans, tribes, and population groups of Ireland. Go raibh síochán orainn go léir / May peace be on us all, - Jerry

Here is the rest of my links for Ireland censuses that I know of that are online. Feel free to correct any links or add more links on the list. County Leitrim 1901 Census http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Limerick County Limerick Assorted Census Records - 1600s http://www.rootsweb.com/~irllim/records.htm Limerick City Directory 1788 http://www.geocities.com/irishancestralpages/limdir1788main.html County Longford 1901 census returns for the parish of Edgeworthstown http://www.mostrim.org/Scrapbook/Words/Census1.htm County Mayo Crossmolina 1901 census http://www.celticcousins.net/ireland/crossmolina1901.htm Bohola 1901 census http://www.celticcousins.net/ireland/Bohola.htm Burrishoole Parish 1901 census http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Park/7461/cens.html County Mayo Assorted Census Records 1901 & 1911 http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~deesegenes/cen.html County Mayo Assorted Census Records 1901 http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Meath 1901 census for various townland in Southeastern Meath http://www.angelfire.com/ak2/ashbourne/townlandlist.html the final list will be posted either later today or tomorrow -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

Hi Pat Okay and thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doris Kelly" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [ROLL CALL] 1901 & 1911 Ireland censuses > Somehow I missed the list of parishes available online. Would someone > please post it again? > Thank you > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ConnorsGenealogy" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:56 PM > Subject: Re: [ROLL CALL] 1901 & 1911 Ireland censuses > > > > > > > > > > >Are the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses available online ? > > > > > > > Here is one site that has some. I have a list of website with various > > counties that I'll try to post tomorrow. > > http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/index.shtml > > > > -- > > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > > All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS Mailing List ==== > > To Unsubcribe from L: mailto:[email protected] > > To Unsubscribe from D: mailto:[email protected] > > Put the single word 'unsubscribe' in the message subject and body > > > > > ==== IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS Mailing List ==== > To Unsubcribe from L: mailto:[email protected] > To Unsubscribe from D: mailto:[email protected] > Put the single word 'unsubscribe' in the message subject and body >

Hello Pam.... Write to the Registrars Office in Dublin with the information you have for a birth certificate for Margaret Coffey. This will give you her father's name. Then try this: Write a letter explaining your family history put it in an envelope addressed to a Mr./Mrs. Coffey. Write another letter addressed to the Postmaster at Ballingarry asking him to give your letter to the oldest Coffey they know. Include $5 for his trouble. If you know the townland in County Clare, do the same thing. I found two cousins this way. I still keep in touch with the Postmistress who helped me back in 1987! Joan

Somehow I missed the list of parishes available online. Would someone please post it again? Thank you ----- Original Message ----- From: "ConnorsGenealogy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [ROLL CALL] 1901 & 1911 Ireland censuses > > > > > >Are the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses available online ? > > > > Here is one site that has some. I have a list of website with various > counties that I'll try to post tomorrow. > http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/index.shtml > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus > > > > > > ==== IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS Mailing List ==== > To Unsubcribe from L: mailto:[email protected] > To Unsubscribe from D: mailto:[email protected] > Put the single word 'unsubscribe' in the message subject and body >

> > >Somehow I missed the list of parishes available online. Would someone >please post it again? > Not sure what you are referring to but if you check the list's archives, you should be able to find what you are looking for: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

Just a couple of corrections to the URL's below others work fine. Bob =========================== ConnorsGenealogy wrote: > > County Derry (Londonderry) > 1831 Census, Dunboe Parish > http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirldy/donboe/1831cen/1831indx.htm > CORRECTED URL > http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirldy/dunboe/1831cen/1831indx.htm > > County Donegal > > 1901 Co Donegal assorted parishes & townland > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/1901_census-irl_.htm > CORRECTED URL: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/Ire_Data/Ire_Census/census_Irl.htm

At 09:22 AM 6/1/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Here is a list I got together a few months ago. I have NOT checked the >urls to see if they are still working, so some might have changed. Pat - Just have to say thanks to recognize the contributions you so often post to Lists. I, for one, truly appreciate your careful and often time-consuming efforts. Many thanks, Pat, Sharon Kavanagh Researching: KAVANAGH in Counties Carlow, Wexford, Wicklow BYRNE/Wicklow

Here is a list I got together a few months ago. I have NOT checked the urls to see if they are still working, so some might have changed. County Antrim 1851 Census Remnant http://www.rootsweb.com/~irish/igsi_published/cens-sub/ant5100.htm County Cavan County Cavan 1841 Census Index CD-Rom or Ancestry subscription County Clare County Clare 1901 Census http://www.clarelibrary.ie County Cork County Cork Assorted Census Listings http://www.sci.net.au/userpages/mgrogan/cork/a_census.htm County Derry (Londonderry) 1831 Census, Dunboe Parish http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirldy/donboe/1831cen/1831indx.htm 1831 Census Index CD-Rom or Ancestry.com subscription County Donegal Assorted Co Donegal Census Extracts http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal/census.htm 1901 Co Donegal assorted parishes & townland http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/1901_census-irl_.htm County Dublin Shaw's Dublin City Directory 1850 http://www.loughman.dna.ie/dublin1850/ County Fermanagh Census of 1659 (surnames only) http://www.fermanagh.org.uk/fermanaghpresents/cen1659.htm County Galway 1901 Census for Headford & Killursa http://www.lalley.com/index.htm?census.htm 1901 Beagh Parish census http://www.celticcousins.net/ireland/1901beaghcensus.htm Assorted 1901 census records http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/1901census/ County Kerry Online Records & Partial Censuses http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlker/records.html This is the first half and I'll post the second half tomorrow. If you know of more, please add to the list. If the links have change, please send the new link to the list. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

on 31/5/05 5:34 pm, ConnorsGenealogy at [email protected] wrote: >> >> >> f anyone on the roll-call lives anywhere near this burial ground I would love >> to see a >> photograph of the grave...and find out why she is in the plot of another >> family. >> > > You might try this website for help, Random Acts of Genealogy Kindness: > http://www.raogk.org/ > You can go to the Rhode Island section and see if anyone is there from > Providence. > > I have a story about my ggrandmother in a grave plot with who I thought > were strangers....when I was in Troy NY back in the 1990s checking on my > ancestors, I found the grave where my ggrandmother was buried. The > graveyard is owned and managed by a Catholic Church and they gave me a > copy of an index card that showed who owned the plot and who was buried > in it. > Well, it was owned by Timothy O'Connor, my gggrandfather. My > ggrandfather, James O'Connor was not in grave but his wife, my > ggrandmother was in it. She died in 1892. The rest of the people in > the plot were all Maloneys! Well, to make this story shorter, just this > year I heard from the gggrandson of Hannah Maloney who is in the grave. > Well, her maiden name was O'Connor! She was Timothy's daughter and > James' sister. She was my great aunt! All the other Maloney's in the > grave were her husband and some of her children, my cousins. > > So, Jack, those who seem like strangers to you now, may turn out to be > cousins, aunts and or uncles! Great story...thanks a lot...I've tried the raogk and left a message there...great tip. I've been asking a contact in RI to help out for years with no joy...so hopefully this request will bear fruit! Cheers Jim

Are the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses available online ? Thanks, Betty Lou Garcia You are very fortunate to be researching a recent family from Ireland. Civil registration started in Ireland in 1864 for births and deaths and RC marriages (1845 for Protestant marriages). Then there are both the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses that are available to you. All then needed records have been filmed by LDS. They have the births indexed by year. Since you already know the date of birth you can send for her birth certifcate from the General Register Office on this website: http://www.groireland.ie/ The certificate will give place of birth and then you can check the 1901 census for family member, same with 1911. After you get the area, you can also get some church records. Good luck. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus ==== IRELAND-ROLL-CALLS Mailing List ==== To Unsubcribe from L: mailto:[email protected] To Unsubscribe from D: mailto:[email protected] Put the single word 'unsubscribe' in the message subject and body

> > >Are the 1901 and 1911 Ireland censuses available online ? > Here is one site that has some. I have a list of website with various counties that I'll try to post tomorrow. http://www.leitrim-roscommon.com/index.shtml -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

> > >f anyone on the roll-call lives anywhere near this burial ground I would love to see a >photograph of the grave...and find out why she is in the plot of another >family. > You might try this website for help, Random Acts of Genealogy Kindness: http://www.raogk.org/ You can go to the Rhode Island section and see if anyone is there from Providence. I have a story about my ggrandmother in a grave plot with who I thought were strangers....when I was in Troy NY back in the 1990s checking on my ancestors, I found the grave where my ggrandmother was buried. The graveyard is owned and managed by a Catholic Church and they gave me a copy of an index card that showed who owned the plot and who was buried in it. Well, it was owned by Timothy O'Connor, my gggrandfather. My ggrandfather, James O'Connor was not in grave but his wife, my ggrandmother was in it. She died in 1892. The rest of the people in the plot were all Maloneys! Well, to make this story shorter, just this year I heard from the gggrandson of Hannah Maloney who is in the grave. Well, her maiden name was O'Connor! She was Timothy's daughter and James' sister. She was my great aunt! All the other Maloney's in the grave were her husband and some of her children, my cousins. So, Jack, those who seem like strangers to you now, may turn out to be cousins, aunts and or uncles! -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

> > > How can I access the LDS films? Are there any centres in England that would have access to the Irish >films? > The film holdings are all listed with film numbers at: http://www.familysearch.org How it works here in the states, is that you find an LDS Family History Center near where you live. You go to it and order the film, it costs $4 for three weeks rental. They then get it from Salt Lake City, Utah where the Family History Library is located. When your center gets the film, you can then view it at the center. I don't know how many centers are in England, but check the phone book. Or you might want to get on the mailing list for your county in England, and ask where they are located near you and someone will probably be able help you. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com All outgoing mail virus free, scanned by ZoneAlarm AntiVirus

Whilst investigating my great grandmother's collection of photographs and cross checking with various genealogical sites...I discovered an ancestor who's existence was previously unknown to all the family. He had been born prior to the BD&M registers and had died in the US so it was completely by chance that I came across his Christening records...I then got his wedding certificate and gradually his story began to unfold...I think it illustrates perfectly the tragic lives some of our ancestors had to put up with. James Ramsdale was a weaver by trade as was the whole family but when the North blockaded the South in the American Civil War and cut off the supply of cotton to England...he and thousands of others were out of a job. He emigrated to RI with his wife and two children. Whilst his brother Joseph raised 8 children to adulthood, losing only two at birth and a further boy at the age of 11,(his sisters Alice managed seven and Jane, two boys), James was to father eight children, only two surviving beyond the age of seven. The age sequence of his children in numerical order being 0, 1, 3, 3, 6, 7,13 and 98! I was hoping, when I began my research, to discover some American cousins but unfortunately that branch of the family has quite literally died out. Alice was the last to die at the age of 98 in 1968 and is buried in the North Burial Ground in Providence RI. If anyone on the roll-call lives anywhere near this burial ground I would love to see a photograph of the grave...and find out why she is in the plot of another family. If anyone has further information I would be very interested. I have include a time line for James...just in case anyone's interested... JAMES LAWLESS RAMSDALE 1837-1900 1837 Born Warrington Lancashire to William Ramsdale and Jane Lawless (Jane was born in Ireland in 1818, the daughter of Edward Lawless, a weaver). Further information gratefully received. 1838 January 7th Christened/parents married at St. Paul C of E Warrington 1839 October 1st sister Alice born [Ramsdales lived at 1 Hope St Warrington] 1840 March 29th Alice christened at St Paul 1841 December 29th brother Joseph born 1845 Last quarter sister Jane Bridget born 1845 December 28th Jane B christened at St Paul 1851 Census Ramsdales not recorded in Warrington 1851 Census Ramsdales not recorded in Stockport 1861 Census Ramsdales recorded living at 44 King Street West Stockport. James, aged 23 recorded as a power loom weaver along with his father, brother and sisters 1861 December 29th James marries Emma Poole at the Parish Church, Heaton Norris 1862 Mary Jane born Heaton Norris, Stockport 1864 William Edward born Heaton Norris 1864-1869 Between these dates James, Emma, Mary J and William E emigrated to USA 1869 19th August Mary Jane died aged 7. Buried in St Phillips Episcopal Cemetery West Warwick RI 1870 Alice Amelia born Rhode Island USA 1870 Census recorded with 2 children William age 8 born England, Alice A age 1 b RI 1871 James T and Joseph H Ramsdale born RI 1875 July 18th Joseph H died aged 4. Buried St Phillips 1875 Joseph A Ramsdale born 1876 October 30th Joseph A died aged 1. Buried St Phillips 1877 February 2nd Willie E died aged 13. Buried St Phillips 1877 November 2nd James T died aged 4. Buried St Phillips 1878 Walter Ramsdale born 1880 Census Ramsdales recorded living at Warwick, Kent. RI. James L Cotton Weaver, aged 42, Emma Keeping House aged 39, Alice A 10, At School and Walter aged 2 both born RI 1881 June 10th Emma Ramsdale died aged 41. Buried St Phillips 1881 June 22nd Walter died aged 3. Buried St Phillips 1883 George Ramsdale born / died 27th September to Sarah Jones & James L Ramsdale 1885 James L married Sarah Jones born 1840 1900 April 11th James L Ramsdale died aged 62. Buried St Phillips 1907 August 8th Alice Amelia Ramsdale aged 37 married John Barbour [b 1863 Scotland] 1919 November 26th Sarah Ramsdale died aged 79. Buried St Phillips 1920 Census Alice A and John Barbour recorded at Fall River MA. John was a weaver in a cotton mill and immigrated in 1893. No children recorded 1930 Census Alice A Barbour recorded as a widow, Fall River MA 1968 October 18th Alice Amelia Barbour died aged 98. Buried in the North Burial Ground in Providence RI

if you wish to find more about A.T.Stewart i suggest you try a search of john ellis kordes or www.gardencityny.net