San Bernardino, and they do it under the Trespassing law. Jeff Jan Patterson wrote: > EXCUSE ME?!!!That's public domain, they can't legally keep you from > doing it. Besides, the markers don't belong to them. They belong to > the families. Therefore if you are copying the markers, you must be > family. Now I can see some of them not wanting you to do something like > chalk on the markers to brighten the letters for photos, but then you > can sometimes do that with water, which won't hurt them. > > I'm afraid those cemeteries and I would go to war over that rule. Where > are you located? Jan who is still reeling from the cost of opening and > closing her grandmother's grave a year later in OK > > Jeff Scism wrote: >> We have two cemeteries out here that will not let you copy information >> off markers, so they aren't always too friendly to genealogists. >> >> Jeff >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

EXCUSE ME?!!!That's public domain, they can't legally keep you from doing it. Besides, the markers don't belong to them. They belong to the families. Therefore if you are copying the markers, you must be family. Now I can see some of them not wanting you to do something like chalk on the markers to brighten the letters for photos, but then you can sometimes do that with water, which won't hurt them. I'm afraid those cemeteries and I would go to war over that rule. Where are you located? Jan who is still reeling from the cost of opening and closing her grandmother's grave a year later in OK Jeff Scism wrote: > We have two cemeteries out here that will not let you copy information > off markers, so they aren't always too friendly to genealogists. > > Jeff >

From my own personal experience on funeral homes. I know that Fentress Funeral Home in Ft. Smith AR has donated all their old death records to the Ft. Smith Genealogy Library, because that is where I found info on my ggrandfather Chesterfield Monroe Carney. Several OK funeral homes I've dealt with have told me they only keep the records handy for a reasonable amount of time, and then they too file their's away in another location. Funeral homes have provided a great amount of info for me. Not only the death certificates, but who paid for the funeral, who the pallbearers were, the cause of death, last address, whether or not social security benefits were filed for, military service, attending physician (a source for sometimes important medical records) etc. Often they have a copy of the obituary as well. All of these can give you leads on those elusive ancestors. The biggest problem is, IF they still have the records easily accessible and IF they are willing to dig them out for you. I know the one for my parents, who died within 8 months of each other and I paid for the funerals, was not willing to go back in their records the next year to provide the needed info for me. Didn't matter to them that my family had used their services for over 20 funerals, they could not be bothered and would not let me look for them. While others bend over backwards to help you. Some have records that go back a long ways, others don't. As to how long? It varies from state to state and funeral home to funeral home. Each state is different in it's laws about when death certificates started and some funeral homes didn't really keep records until forced into it. Then you have the problem of the family burial. It's not been that long since folks took care of their own. In some areas it's still allowed. The end result is: it doesn't hurt to ask a funeral home in an area where your ancestor died, you just might get what you seek and after all the worst they can say is "no". Jan who has sought out many a funeral home record in OK nancy hartman wrote: > Yes Jan I was surprised while searching records on our land to find the > death record for our neighbor filed in the books. I had to provide a record > of my dads death in order to put my name on the land he left to me. So I > expect it too is now filed in with the land records.This was in Nebraska, > Platte and Butler county. My dad kept a life estate on the land after he > signed it over to me some 12 years before he died. So I had to prove his > death before they would change the record. By the way the local funeral > home gave me a copy of his death record so the next question is do all > funeral homes have copies of a person death record? > If so when did they begin keeping a copy in their records. > ----- Original Message ----- >

Yes Jan I was surprised while searching records on our land to find the death record for our neighbor filed in the books. I had to provide a record of my dads death in order to put my name on the land he left to me. So I expect it too is now filed in with the land records.This was in Nebraska, Platte and Butler county. My dad kept a life estate on the land after he signed it over to me some 12 years before he died. So I had to prove his death before they would change the record. By the way the local funeral home gave me a copy of his death record so the next question is do all funeral homes have copies of a person death record? If so when did they begin keeping a copy in their records. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Patterson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:51 AM Subject: [INPUTNAM] another way to find death certificates and wills > First of all let me say, the surnames I was dealing with while doing the > following were not ones from this list. I'm just passing on a valuable > inexpensive place to possibly find death certificates and wills. > > There are people who go into genealogy looking for money, that would be > my friend D. There are people who do it looking for the pieces of their > family quilt and the stories of the lives that wove together to make us. > That would be me. > > Sometimes the two work hand in hand. No, I didn't find great wealth, I > just found where my grandmother wasn't getting all her mineral right pay > outs like she should and because I knew how to document genealogy I was > able to help her get the back money owed her a few years ago. > > Just prior to her death she spoke of some other rights, from another > family member that she might should have inherited. She made my db and > I promise to check on it before she died. We did. > > By checking missingmoney.com and foundmoney.com we discovered there was > definitely some on hold, but whether or not it was hers we weren't sure. > One of the big sticking points was the ancestor's will. It would tell > exactly who was suppose to get what percentage of those mineral rights. > Unfortunately they died in another state, and despite all of our > requests for look-ups no one had to date volunteered to check for us, > even for a reasonable fee. > > So yesterday my db and I went back to the county courthouse where the > mineral right and property records were kept and started digging through > the books trying to figure out if maybe those rights had in fact left > our branch of the family years ago. > > This was our fourth trip to do this and we'd searched every record, so > we thought, each time. We had even checked in the will and probate > department to see if a copy of the out of state will had been filed > there because of property owned in this state. We had been told no. > > As in all government offices the right hand apparently does not tell the > left hand what they are doing. Yesterday, quite by accident my db > turned to the next page following an oil lease and there a page away was > the will we had been hunting for for two years. Not in the will and > probate area, but in LAND records. Further searching turned up FIVE > death certificates for various family members that I would have normally > had to pay $5 to $15 a piece for through the health department of the > various states they came from (TX, OK, AR, CA and CO) I paid $1 each for > xeroxes, which is all I really need for my documentation, and $1 a p > age for the will that proved that the mineral rights did NOT go to my > grandmother. > > So if you are at a dead end on finding a will or death record, check > land and mineral right records. You just might find what you are > looking for. > > So, even though that 1/8th of the mineral right doesn't go to us as her > heirs, I found some valuable genealogy info that solved a mystery for > me, and got it far cheaper than if I'd gone through normal channels. Oh > yeah, while on missingmoney.com, we found where my brother had some > utility deposits from several years ago coming back to him. It wasn't a > lot, but it will cover the $20 we spent on copies! > > Jan who thought this important enough to share in OK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.3/474 - Release Date: 10/13/2006 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.3/474 - Release Date: 10/13/2006

We have two cemeteries out here that will not let you copy information off markers, so they aren't always too friendly to genealogists. Jeff Jan Patterson wrote: > From my own personal experience on funeral homes. I know that Fentress > Funeral Home in Ft. Smith AR has donated all their old death records to > the Ft. Smith Genealogy Library, because that is where I found info on > my ggrandfather Chesterfield Monroe Carney. > > Several OK funeral homes I've dealt with have told me they only keep the > records handy for a reasonable amount of time, and then they too file > their's away in another location. > > Funeral homes have provided a great amount of info for me. Not only the > death certificates, but who paid for the funeral, who the pallbearers > were, the cause of death, last address, whether or not social security > benefits were filed for, military service, attending physician (a source > for sometimes important medical records) etc. Often they have a copy > of the obituary as well. All of these can give you leads on those > elusive ancestors. > > The biggest problem is, IF they still have the records easily accessible > and IF they are willing to dig them out for you. I know the one for my > parents, who died within 8 months of each other and I paid for the > funerals, was not willing to go back in their records the next year to > provide the needed info for me. Didn't matter to them that my family > had used their services for over 20 funerals, they could not be bothered > and would not let me look for them. > > While others bend over backwards to help you. > > Some have records that go back a long ways, others don't. As to how > long? It varies from state to state and funeral home to funeral home. > Each state is different in it's laws about when death certificates > started and some funeral homes didn't really keep records until forced > into it. Then you have the problem of the family burial. It's not been > that long since folks took care of their own. In some areas it's still > allowed. > > The end result is: it doesn't hurt to ask a funeral home in an area > where your ancestor died, you just might get what you seek and after all > the worst they can say is "no". Jan who has sought out many a funeral > home record in OK > > > > nancy hartman wrote: >> Yes Jan I was surprised while searching records on our land to find the >> death record for our neighbor filed in the books. I had to provide a record >> of my dads death in order to put my name on the land he left to me. So I >> expect it too is now filed in with the land records.This was in Nebraska, >> Platte and Butler county. My dad kept a life estate on the land after he >> signed it over to me some 12 years before he died. So I had to prove his >> death before they would change the record. By the way the local funeral >> home gave me a copy of his death record so the next question is do all >> funeral homes have copies of a person death record? >> If so when did they begin keeping a copy in their records. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Localities have different rules BUT if a person was transported OUT of county for burial you will probably find the Death certs in BOTH counties. Burial Permits usually require a copy. Getting THAT is sometimes cheaper than getting the official recorded copy from the archive, and is usually an original source (certified copy) document. Funeral homes have no minimum records laws in most places, but they usually prepare the Obituaries. So check with them, if you know which ones are local, and the Obits may come to you easier. Jeff nancy hartman wrote: > Yes Jan I was surprised while searching records on our land to find the > death record for our neighbor filed in the books. I had to provide a record > of my dads death in order to put my name on the land he left to me. So I > expect it too is now filed in with the land records.This was in Nebraska, > Platte and Butler county. My dad kept a life estate on the land after he > signed it over to me some 12 years before he died. So I had to prove his > death before they would change the record. By the way the local funeral > home gave me a copy of his death record so the next question is do all > funeral homes have copies of a person death record? > If so when did they begin keeping a copy in their records. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jan Patterson" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>; > <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:51 AM > Subject: [INPUTNAM] another way to find death certificates and wills > > >> First of all let me say, the surnames I was dealing with while doing the >> following were not ones from this list. I'm just passing on a valuable >> inexpensive place to possibly find death certificates and wills. >> >> There are people who go into genealogy looking for money, that would be >> my friend D. There are people who do it looking for the pieces of their >> family quilt and the stories of the lives that wove together to make us. >> That would be me. >> >> Sometimes the two work hand in hand. No, I didn't find great wealth, I >> just found where my grandmother wasn't getting all her mineral right pay >> outs like she should and because I knew how to document genealogy I was >> able to help her get the back money owed her a few years ago. >> >> Just prior to her death she spoke of some other rights, from another >> family member that she might should have inherited. She made my db and >> I promise to check on it before she died. We did. >> >> By checking missingmoney.com and foundmoney.com we discovered there was >> definitely some on hold, but whether or not it was hers we weren't sure. >> One of the big sticking points was the ancestor's will. It would tell >> exactly who was suppose to get what percentage of those mineral rights. >> Unfortunately they died in another state, and despite all of our >> requests for look-ups no one had to date volunteered to check for us, >> even for a reasonable fee. >> >> So yesterday my db and I went back to the county courthouse where the >> mineral right and property records were kept and started digging through >> the books trying to figure out if maybe those rights had in fact left >> our branch of the family years ago. >> >> This was our fourth trip to do this and we'd searched every record, so >> we thought, each time. We had even checked in the will and probate >> department to see if a copy of the out of state will had been filed >> there because of property owned in this state. We had been told no. >> >> As in all government offices the right hand apparently does not tell the >> left hand what they are doing. Yesterday, quite by accident my db >> turned to the next page following an oil lease and there a page away was >> the will we had been hunting for for two years. Not in the will and >> probate area, but in LAND records. Further searching turned up FIVE >> death certificates for various family members that I would have normally >> had to pay $5 to $15 a piece for through the health department of the >> various states they came from (TX, OK, AR, CA and CO) I paid $1 each for >> xeroxes, which is all I really need for my documentation, and $1 a p >> age for the will that proved that the mineral rights did NOT go to my >> grandmother. >> >> So if you are at a dead end on finding a will or death record, check >> land and mineral right records. You just might find what you are >> looking for. >> >> So, even though that 1/8th of the mineral right doesn't go to us as her >> heirs, I found some valuable genealogy info that solved a mystery for >> me, and got it far cheaper than if I'd gone through normal channels. Oh >> yeah, while on missingmoney.com, we found where my brother had some >> utility deposits from several years ago coming back to him. It wasn't a >> lot, but it will cover the $20 we spent on copies! >> >> Jan who thought this important enough to share in OK >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.3/474 - Release Date: 10/13/2006 >> >> > > >

First of all let me say, the surnames I was dealing with while doing the following were not ones from this list. I'm just passing on a valuable inexpensive place to possibly find death certificates and wills. There are people who go into genealogy looking for money, that would be my friend D. There are people who do it looking for the pieces of their family quilt and the stories of the lives that wove together to make us. That would be me. Sometimes the two work hand in hand. No, I didn't find great wealth, I just found where my grandmother wasn't getting all her mineral right pay outs like she should and because I knew how to document genealogy I was able to help her get the back money owed her a few years ago. Just prior to her death she spoke of some other rights, from another family member that she might should have inherited. She made my db and I promise to check on it before she died. We did. By checking missingmoney.com and foundmoney.com we discovered there was definitely some on hold, but whether or not it was hers we weren't sure. One of the big sticking points was the ancestor's will. It would tell exactly who was suppose to get what percentage of those mineral rights. Unfortunately they died in another state, and despite all of our requests for look-ups no one had to date volunteered to check for us, even for a reasonable fee. So yesterday my db and I went back to the county courthouse where the mineral right and property records were kept and started digging through the books trying to figure out if maybe those rights had in fact left our branch of the family years ago. This was our fourth trip to do this and we'd searched every record, so we thought, each time. We had even checked in the will and probate department to see if a copy of the out of state will had been filed there because of property owned in this state. We had been told no. As in all government offices the right hand apparently does not tell the left hand what they are doing. Yesterday, quite by accident my db turned to the next page following an oil lease and there a page away was the will we had been hunting for for two years. Not in the will and probate area, but in LAND records. Further searching turned up FIVE death certificates for various family members that I would have normally had to pay $5 to $15 a piece for through the health department of the various states they came from (TX, OK, AR, CA and CO) I paid $1 each for xeroxes, which is all I really need for my documentation, and $1 a p age for the will that proved that the mineral rights did NOT go to my grandmother. So if you are at a dead end on finding a will or death record, check land and mineral right records. You just might find what you are looking for. So, even though that 1/8th of the mineral right doesn't go to us as her heirs, I found some valuable genealogy info that solved a mystery for me, and got it far cheaper than if I'd gone through normal channels. Oh yeah, while on missingmoney.com, we found where my brother had some utility deposits from several years ago coming back to him. It wasn't a lot, but it will cover the $20 we spent on copies! Jan who thought this important enough to share in OK

I don't believe this at all, I have been taking pictures of Grave stones for years, and then publishing them on The Gen Web Cemetery page for that state, So people can find their loved ones, And I have never been stopped by anyone. Just a pat on the back and a Thank You from most people, The only thing about the trespass law is on private property,Some ones home or farm, And Even then I have just walked up knocked on the door and asked ,and they have let me take pictures and copy the info, I have never heard of any case where anyone was stopped for this. I would like to hear of a specific case. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Patterson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:50 PM Subject: Re: [INPUTNAM] another way to find death certificates and wills-funeral homes > So let me get this right, your family purchases a plot, pays for the > stone and the services to put them in the ground and if you go to > "visit" them on the property your family actually owns, due to the > purchase of the plot you are trespassing? > > What is there reasoning that you can't copy down the info? It doesn't > belong to them. You aren't benefiting from it financially. Let me > guess they have a book they want you to pay big bucks for. > > So you are saying if I travel from OK to visit the grave of one of my > family and I take a photo or write down the info, they can legally jail > me for trespassing on a public cemetery? Do they have signs posted to > this affect? > > I'm sorry, but this sounds like some politician has his thumb in a pie > and something legally needs to be done about it. Jan who can't believe > the crassness of some people in OK > > Jeff Scism wrote: >> San Bernardino, and they do it under the Trespassing law. >> >> Jeff> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you so much ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jan Patterson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 6:08 AM Subject: [INPUTNAM] Got them mailed! > Except for a few that came in after the main push of copying I have sent > out all the family maps I promised to everyone. They were mailed on > Friday, so there is a slight chance some of you will get them today. I > hope everyone enjoys them. I'll try and get the rest of them out this > week, but I have a very heavy schedule of company all week that is > coming in from out of town. Jan who hopes the maps are as helpful to > all of you as they have been to her in OK > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/476 - Release Date: 10/14/2006 > >

Except for a few that came in after the main push of copying I have sent out all the family maps I promised to everyone. They were mailed on Friday, so there is a slight chance some of you will get them today. I hope everyone enjoys them. I'll try and get the rest of them out this week, but I have a very heavy schedule of company all week that is coming in from out of town. Jan who hopes the maps are as helpful to all of you as they have been to her in OK

Several have asked about the County/Surname books available on Land Patents. Here's the information I sent to another person.. Hope it helps those on our lists... Call the following number: (405) 366-6181 and ask about the prices on the books as they differ... If you want to review what's available, go to: _www.arphax.com_ (http://www.arphax.com/) . I ordered the Deluxe editions, well worth the money.. Ellie Swanger

Okay, so you figured it out before you got my email. LOL! Everyone, any name you gave me I copied anything that was even vaguely what you asked for. So if you get something and you wonder why the heck I sent that, that's why. Jan who has found her Chesterfield Monroe Carney listed as Ches Carry and Cluster F. Corny n OK Judy Gordon wrote: > Whoops, after searching the BLM website for Gordon and not finding any land > patents for them in Putnam Co., I tried searching for Gorden (spelled with > an "e") and found a goldmine of 'em! Good lesson, that is, to look for > every possible spelling of our our surnames. > Judy Gordon > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Judy I found Gordon's and have copied them for you. I believe some of them were spelled en. The legal description (latitude/longitude) is included in what I am hopefully getting out in the mail to everyone tomorrow. Jan who is just in from a day of xeroxing at the library in OK Judy Gordon wrote: > I tried searching for my Gordon's land grants on the BLM website, but > nothing came up for Putnam Co., which is where I thought they settled. Am I > doing something wrong? > Judy Gordon > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Whoops, after searching the BLM website for Gordon and not finding any land patents for them in Putnam Co., I tried searching for Gorden (spelled with an "e") and found a goldmine of 'em! Good lesson, that is, to look for every possible spelling of our our surnames. Judy Gordon

I tried searching for my Gordon's land grants on the BLM website, but nothing came up for Putnam Co., which is where I thought they settled. Am I doing something wrong? Judy Gordon

Mike, Please accept my condolences. I lost my own mother two years ago to the same disease. It is not easy dealing with such a thing. Thank you for notifying me. Sharon Bryant List Administrator ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:14 PM Subject: [INPUTNAM] Unsubscribe > Unsubscribe > > I'm sorry to inform you that my mom, Caroyl Donahue, passed away on March > 3, 2006, after a long battle with diabetes and kidney disease. > > Mike Donahue > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 7:30 PM > Subject: Re: [INPUTNAM] Land Patent-Mary Stewart > > > Jan, > I, too, will be reimbursing you. Thank you so very much! > Lisa > > Jan Patterson <[email protected]> wrote: > Thank you, it is going to take larger envelopes and more postage than I > originally thought. Jan who can't go to the library until tomorrow in OK > [email protected] wrote: > >> >> I want to see you well covered for these expenses. >> >> EllieCuz >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ellie, You can see why I got so excited about this series of books. To me they are the best new set of genealogy books that our librarian has added to our collection. For those of you who are wondering. I'll be doing the last of the research at the library today and hopefully will get everyone's packets finished up tonight and out in tomorrow's mail. Jan who isn't truly that slow, just doing a lot of research and copying in OK [email protected] wrote: > > In a message dated 10/11/2006 2:08:02 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Family Maps of Putnam Co. > > > Mine arrived yesterday.. and they are WONDERFUL.. so well done!!!!!! They > are well worth the money! No royalties to me, but I have to spread the word > about their functionality.. > > Ellie > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Unsubscribe I'm sorry to inform you that my mom, Caroyl Donahue, passed away on March 3, 2006, after a long battle with diabetes and kidney disease. Mike Donahue -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 7:30 PM Subject: Re: [INPUTNAM] Land Patent-Mary Stewart Jan, I, too, will be reimbursing you. Thank you so very much! Lisa Jan Patterson <[email protected]> wrote: Thank you, it is going to take larger envelopes and more postage than I originally thought. Jan who can't go to the library until tomorrow in OK [email protected] wrote: > > I want to see you well covered for these expenses. > > EllieCuz > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Everyone. I am interested in finding out what years the Family Maps cover. Thank you, Elizabeth

In a message dated 10/11/2006 7:35:14 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Please, could you tell me what years the book covers? Who are you addressing this to?? Ellie