Mr. Conrad, I can understand most of your thoughts here, but not all of them. Come by and look at the extensive work being done on Chapman/Cottrell Cemetery in Green Township. Don't just look at the view from your chair in front of that computer screen. As I mentioned the other day, maybe they aren't putting the stones back together properly, but at least they are doing something and the results look great. I sure could not do their work. No, Mr. Haines has no control over mowing crews now or in 30 years from now. I can tell you that at the present time the stones are not being hit by mowers. I can tell you my son and I weedeat around every stone so they do not get skinned up with mowers. I can tell you as the current township trustee, with my son and I doing the mowing, we do care. If we did not care, the cemeteries appearance would not be what it is. Look at any in my township. I get compliments all the time on our cemeteries appearance. We walk 1/4 mile uphill carrying weedeaters on our shoulders to trim one. No, I will not always be the trustee and the stones may get skinned up as many have been in past years. I have some small and fragile infant stones and other fragile stones broken about an inch or two above the ground. A concrete base makes sense also. I am just glad to see the restoration progress here as compared to the way the Chapman/Cottrell cemetery looked a few short years ago. As long as caring people are in trustee positions stones and markers are safe from scrapes and dings. However, if the Indiana General Assembly gets their way in the next few sessions, all township trustees get a pink slip. That should be your worry as well as other taxpayers. I am always suggesting folks let their elected official know their feelings as far as whether they want a local resident controlling the cemeteries or a county commissioner who possibly does not know where the cemetery is located, and possibly hires a bunch of illegal immigrants to mow for $4 per hour because they are cheap. That should be a major focus of township taxpayers as I see it. Yes, the township poor relief system needs fine tuned, especially in the larger cities. There is not a need to fine tune fire coverage usually, cemetery care, noxious weed control or fence viewing which, are all part of township responsibilities. You mention the limited dollar. Do you know how hard some trustees have to fight to get tax dollars to keep the cemeteries maintained? I am fortunate because I do not have to fight with my advisory board nor the state to get cemetery funds. Gotta go...thanks for reading, Greg Valentine Green Township Trustee/Assessor Madison County -----Original Message----- From: KidClerk@aol.com [mailto:KidClerk@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:51 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny Mr. Haines....let me offer a few more comments in response to your latest post. "The name is "Hains"." Sorry about that. My font made it look like Harris. "How do you prevent mower decks from damaging headstones when you have no control over those mowing? Particularly if we went to the expense of drilling and doweling and then resetting the markers in gravel and/or foundation stones?" You don't...until you are assured that won't happen through the township trustee or whomever is in charge. Would you spend thousands of dollars on restoring a 1957 Chevy if you didn't have a garage to store it in? First things first...one of the responsibilities of a county funded commission is to educate people in the proper maintenance of pioneer cemeteries, whether that be elected trustees or private land owners. However, before you can educate, you must also be willing to practice the same. "What expert here can suggest a better epoxy than the Polygem product we use and why would they declare it better?" Since I'm not one of those experts, I'll let them answer this. "Another poster here suggested that we were just randomly placing markers in the Chapman Cottrell cemetery. Simply not true. The fact is that we had reasonable data for the location of most of the headstones recovered." I understand 100%. In fact, there's no guarantee that the stones that were still standing were in the correct location after over 100 years of time. You do what you can do. Now I want to quote some of your comments from your original post and offer some practical solutions that you claim I didn't do... "Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously." Work only in these townships until the others either 1)change their mindset 2) leave office or 3) get enough pressure placed on them to do what is right. "So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing" Have you ever considered pouring your base with a slot in it instead of sticking the stone directly in the concrete? Would this not accomplish what you are after without the ramifications of the stone not having any means to 'breathe'? Then if the stone is broken off in the future, it can be easily removed for repair. What about pouring the base wide enough so that the mower does not have to get so close to the stone and leaving it at ground level? "What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks." How do you intend to repair these stones since the rest of the stone is embedded in concrete? Would you agree that utilizing a slotted foundation would make this type of repair much easier? And would you consider that the pressure that the concrete was placing on this stone contributed to the brittle nature that led to the break? "Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar." To me this is simply an admission that you know better, but you still do it to cut costs and corners. "I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us." Properly restored stones do not require any of this. The time and money you spend on this alone would be better utilized doing the things that you claim you can't do. "We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back" And at what portion of that seminar were you taught the procedures that you continue to defend? The organizers of these workshops should be made aware if someone is participating in them and passing on improper techniques to people such as you and I who are wanting to do what is right. "Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County" Right is always right, and wrong is always wrong, no matter how much money you throw at it. My question to you is simple... if modifying your methods to conform with more widely accepted and practiced procedures meant getting only half as many stones restored in a years' time due to your budget constraints, would you do it? Would you be willing to solicit the expertise that exists on this mail list to help you tweak your procedures and allow others to come help you and show you how much better some of these procedures can be and how the end results are more in line with how the stone was originally intended to look? No aluminum...no concrete..no stainless steel. The work you have done to identify these cemeteries, obtain GPS coordinates, identify veterans' burials, etc. is wonderful, and yes, I've done many of the same things in my own cemetery. I've spent my own and raised money to work in a pioneer cemetery in Henry County that the trustee refuses to maintain once the brush is cleared. These stones still sit broken..graves are sunken...ATV's still drive through there and trees continue to grow unattended. But I would never endorse a hastily organized restoration project if it meant doing it using the techniques you defend. I'll wait...either until money becomes available or I can fund it myself. I, too, was working to restore this cemetery before the INPCRP came into existence. But as much as it pains me to visit there and witness the disgraceful way it is maintained, I also wouldn't endorse an improper restoration no matter if were the Henry Co. cemetery commission or a group of concerned decendents. Since I have no vested interest in your county, I will not make any further comment on what you do or how you do it. I only responded to you because I did post an earlier message and only wanted to encourage you to understand why many people on this list feel the way they do. Some are so emphatic about it that their frustration is obvious in their posts to this list. Believe it or not, we don't always even agree amongst ourselves on a handful of topics. But most of us can look at the wider picture and continue to work towards a common goal and agree to disagree on certain topics along the way. That does not diminish the work that any of us do...it only reinforces the fact that there's always room for improvement. I would only think that with the amount of time and money you have invested, you would want to see that none of it is spent in vain. So while we continue to disagree on methods, we can continue to agree in principal that our pioneer cemeteries are in need of saving. You may continue to save them your way...but I'll continue to save them my way. -Kyle D. 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