Here is my rough draft to the editor about the letter published advising people to use Brillo pads and Oven cleaner on tombstones, any suggestions are appreciated! Dear Editor, I am writing in response to the letter to the editor in the January 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer. The writer gave instructions on how to clean a gravestone using Brillo pads and Easy Off Oven Cleaner. Having attended workshops sponsored by the Indiana Historical Society, and sponsoring 3 cemetery restoration workshops myself through the Marion Public Library, I was appalled at the information presented. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should any chemicals be applied to a grave marker. Older tombstones were carved using marble, limestone and sandstone which are much softer stone than the currently used granite markers. Chemicals seep into the stone, causing the stone to break down and deteriorate over time. Discoloration also occurs. Rough scrubbing by a Brillo Pad, wire brush or a power washer causes more damage. The only things that should be used to clean a marble, sandstone or limestone marker are water, a weak water/ammonia solution (4 parts water to 1 part ammonia) and a nylon bristle brush. Chalk should never be used to read a marker. Most inscriptions can be read after a gentle cleaning with water and ammonia, with a soft brush. Information on accepted cleaning methods can be found at: The Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/, The Association for Gravestone Studies, http://www.gravestonestudies.org/, Saving Graves, http://www.savinggraves.com, The Chicora Foundation, http://chicora.org/cemetery_preservation.htm, Connecticut Gravestone Network, http://www.ctgravestones.com/Conservation/cleaning.htm, and the book A Graveyard Preservation Primer by Lynette Strangstad, available from Amazon.com. Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library

Rhonda, That sounds great, maybe this will cause some discussion among those who take care of cemeteries. Sheila Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: Here is my rough draft to the editor about the letter published advising people to use Brillo pads and Oven cleaner on tombstones, any suggestions are appreciated! Dear Editor, I am writing in response to the letter to the editor in the January 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer. The writer gave instructions on how to clean a gravestone using Brillo pads and Easy Off Oven Cleaner. Having attended workshops sponsored by the Indiana Historical Society, and sponsoring 3 cemetery restoration workshops myself through the Marion Public Library, I was appalled at the information presented. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should any chemicals be applied to a grave marker. Older tombstones were carved using marble, limestone and sandstone which are much softer stone than the currently used granite markers. Chemicals seep into the stone, causing the stone to break down and deteriorate over time. Discoloration also occurs. Rough scrubbing by a Brillo Pad, wire brush or a power washer causes more damage. The only things that should be used to clean a marble, sandstone or limestone marker are water, a weak water/ammonia solution (4 parts water to 1 part ammonia) and a nylon bristle brush. Chalk should never be used to read a marker. Most inscriptions can be read after a gentle cleaning with water and ammonia, with a soft brush. Information on accepted cleaning methods can be found at: The Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/, The Association for Gravestone Studies, http://www.gravestonestudies.org/, Saving Graves, http://www.savinggraves.com, The Chicora Foundation, http://chicora.org/cemetery_preservation.htm, Connecticut Gravestone Network, http://www.ctgravestones.com/Conservation/cleaning.htm, and the book A Graveyard Preservation Primer by Lynette Strangstad, available from Amazon.com. Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

This was a recent email response to the Greensburg Daily News after they printed an article about a cemetery restoration in Decatur County,IN. I guess we haven't got everyone to see the light yet. I think we have only had two people actually complain during all the work we have completed. So I guess that 1000 to 1 approval ratio is OK with me. As for the complainer....I imagine their bib overalls were just cinched up a little too tight that day. Mark Davis http://www.greensburgdailynews.com/siteSearch/apstorysection/local_story_335104119.html link --- "We as a state are wasting money refurbishing old cemetary stones? What an UTTER WASTE of MONEY! If these stones are that important to the relatives it should be their dollar to take care of the grave and stones. When God sees fit to relieve me of my earthly body to go and live with my Savior, I will not need my earthly body. Least of all I hope and pray that I will not need a stone for people to remember me. Who Gives a Fury Rodents Behind"

Hello, I must applaud you Rex. I think it is a great idea to spend time in a cemetery and get to know the caretakers. I wish that all caretakers and mowers thought that someone was watching. It's kinda like a nursing home, if they think a family member is coming they will take a little better care of the patients. I believe that being among the living gives us the honor of being watchdogs for those who can't be that for themselves anymore, whether living or dead. I think you idea of leaving notes in the cemetery is great. You have really had a great response from them. I think we should all do that. Larry just mentioned something neat. How about using one of those boxes people use when trying to sell their house. We could put contact info, local library info, and contribution information info on a sheet that they can take. We can all make them for the cemeteries we work on. I am talking about the pioneer cemeteries. We even as a group could come up with a form. Just food for thought. Also Larry and I made contact with a cemetery owner tonight in the southern part of Montgomery County. If anyone is working in this area we would be happy to hook you up. Real nice guy. Sheila --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals

L.A. Thanks for this information. Tremendous amount of great information. Now to reduce that to a quick summary list with the most important items. I'll be working on that but it may take a while. On the mowing issue..two items At the old Wood-Verner Cemetery in Smith Co with first burial believed to be 1850 according to the State Historical Marker, I found any number of old broken markers piled up in a corner of the cemetery and even some pieces outside the fence in the ditch next to the road. I have retrieved as many of those as I can and in an unused corner of the cemetery have attempted to piece them back together. I have them lying loosely on the ground, jigsaw puzzle fashion with some being complete and others still missing parts of the original marker. After spending several days on several occasions doing this I left several notes in a zip lock bag on a small stake to the effect "Please do not disturb this monument. This person is not buried here. These pieces were collected from a pile of broken monuments found in the NW corner of the cemetery. If you have any information about this person and where he/she may have been buried in this cemetery, please call Rex Kirby." I then put my phone number on the note. I have received several calls including one from the gentlemen whom I suspected piled them up in the corner in the first place. The first lady who called was about 85 and she met me at the cemetery with some old photos of the cemetery. From those we were able to determine the original location of two of the monuments and from her memory of having attended many funerals there she has given me some ideas on another one. The man who had been doing the mowing and who probably moved many of the broken pieces out of his way also met me at the cemetery. He never actually admitted that he was the one who moved them but why else would he say the pieces had gotten scattered and where causing problems with mowing. And I know from several sources he has been the one mowing the cemetery for several years. He brought with him an old list that he had personally made many years ago which fortunately was in order of burial. From this list we now know where several of the others belong assuming his list is accurate. I have also received any number of other photos from several individuals but many of them are not clear enough to read the names and dates. This is an ongoing project and I have not attempted to move any of those monuments I have pieced together nor have I attempted to "glue" [for lack of a better word] any of them back together permanently. Maybe someday when I learn the best method of doing so. My second major experience/confrontation has been with the caretakers for Rose Hill Cemetery with over 11,000 burials covering about 40 acres that is mowed and trimmed with weed eaters nearly every week. On several occasions I had noticed broken corners on some monuments and especially foot markers. I talked to the supervisor and pointed out to him the damage I had noticed. As a result of that conversation the mowers no longer try to straddle the foot markers with their high riding mowers. And to prevent similar damage to my late wife's monument and the marble edging for the flower bed I took some two foot pieces of 2" angle iron and drove them in the ground on each corner. They are painted a grayish white to match the Georgia Marble monument and are hardly noticeable. But they have prevented the mowers from riding over or striking the corners with the lawn mowers. I have also been known to follow some of the guys on the mowers shouting and waving at them whenever I find broken or chipped corners. Most of them don't speak English but they know from my antics they have done something that is not acceptable. I visit this cemetery often enough to have been there several times during their mowing and for whatever reason have noticed they are much more careful with their mowing and trimming. I can't always be there of course nor can I follow them around from cemetery to cemetery but I would like to think they are a lot more careful now than they were. I don't hesitate to call the caretaker or committee chairman or whoever and complain about damage I see at any cemetery. I don't know of any other way to deal with this problem. It's just a day's work and pay for them. It's sacred memories and never ending love for me and other family members. I welcome any other ideas on dealing with this problem. Rex -----Original Message----- From: L.A. CLUGH [mailto:Clugh_la@msn.com] Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 1:05 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Cleaning methods --You won't believe this one Rex, http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/pcrpstepbystep.html What a great idea. These steps are listed on this page and you will find the Connecticut Gravestone Network page for cleaning. These folks have more years on their monuments that Indiana or Texas. There is also methods on the Association of Grave- stone studies site. I think about the only area not on that page is covering the mower issues. I don't think anyone has completed a page for this. Heaven know they all need education on the mowing around the old stones. Other cleaning recipes are on the Toolbox page. I think most of the links are good now. Lois did a lot of work on these pages, and we are thankful for her work. Half of the restoration job is education. The 2 books on the main page are very helpful. http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/ L.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex Kirby" <rex@tyler.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:31 PM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! > Shelia, Rhonda and all, > I wholehearted agree with you but the question is how. But before I > address > that issue I would like to point out what Mr. Steed in his infinite wisdom > neglected to tell his faithful readers is that after it stays that way for > a > long time it will begin to deteriorate and there is nothing you can do > about it. He should have also advised them to be sure to take plenty of > pictures while they can because in time that's about all anyone will be > able > to read. > > It would appear to me that from his writing style he is somewhat educated > but evidently on other matters that have nothing to do with cemetery or > tombstone preservation. And I'm also puzzled why the Kentucky Explorer > didn't attach an editorial comment to Mr. Steed's letter pointing out at > the > very least that this method of cleaning could be detrimental to some grave > markers. Evidently they need a little education themselves and I hope you > or > someone can enlighten them. > > For more years than I care to admit I have been involved in updating old > surveys or enumerations of several very old cemeteries here in East Texas > as > well as having taken on the task of attempting to photograph all military > markers in all cemeteries in the county. During this time I have > encountered two occasions of so-called cleaning by someone in a cemetery. > One involved a lady who was using what looked like an ice scrapper in > attempting to remove lichen from a granite marker. I didn't say anything > to > her because I couldn't help but think it was her husband's monument and > she > made no effort to clean any other monument. I was close enough to see > that > she wiped the monument off with a dry rag after using the scrapper. After > looking at the dates on the tomb and noticing that the wife was perhaps > not > buried there assuming the absence of a death date was indicative of that > fact, I rationalized that it was her tomb and she could do what she > wanted. > > The second incident involves a cemetery with the oldest grave dating back > to > 1859. Many of the old sandstone markers are extremely difficult to read > and > indeed some have names and dates I can not read and I have tried mirrors > and > lights and various angles with the sun. But back to what I encountered. > On > my way to the cemetery one day I happened to stop at a nearby service > station for gas and a cold drink. While there I overheard a conversation > between two guys who obviously knew each other well. One of them asked > the > other one what had he been up to. Simple question until I heard his > answer. > He said well he had a little time off so he had just finished cleaning all > the monuments in this certain cemetery. This was the same cemetery where > I > was going so I was anxious to know what he had done. When I got there it > was obvious that he had power washed every monument in the cemetery > including those very old sandstone markers. In fact some of them had been > knocked over. On that particular day they looked nice but as I wondered > around I couldn't help but notice some damage from his good intentions. > > Now on the education angle . . . > I would like to have a list of does and don't that could be printed on > something like a 6 x 9 card stock paper to be laminated to make it weather > proof. Most of the rural cemeteries I am familiar with have a chain link > fence around them although some do not and I believe the various cemetery > associations and/or churches would permit me to place a small mail box > near > the entrance of the cemetery to hold those cards. I would estimate that > about 99% of the folks who visit these cemeteries do not have any clue > about > caring for a monument. I would also make these cards available to all the > monument dealers and funeral homes in this area. And of course, when the > card is finalized I would submit a copy to each Historical and > Genealogical > Association in East Texas for publication in one of their monthly > newsletters. And I suspect I could obtain the endorsement of either or > both > of those organizations printed on the bottom of the card. This would > avoid > the appearance of advertisement and would be of more significance to the > general public. Since reading Mr. Steed's method of cleaning I made > several > phone calls today and found no one with a list of proper and improper > methods of caring for or cleaning monuments. > > I will say there may be a list somewhere but I haven't seen one. As of > today I have not undertaken to go through the archived messages on this > board to compile such a list. I am hoping that someone a lot more > knowledgeable about this subject than I am can point me in the right > direction. It occurs to me that such a card readily available everywhere > would be one of the ways to educate the public. Many of the folks who > need > to know these things do not own a computer, do not read magazines on the > subject and never give it thought because they don't know any better. > > Have you got my card yet? > > Thanks for listening, er reading. > > Rex Kirby > Tyler, TX > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheila Rooker [mailto:gravefinder2003@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:19 PM > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! > > Hello All, > > Hope you have all had a happy holiday. This is my 2 cents worth. > Educate, > Educate, Educate. We can't do enough to Educate.... Most people don't have > a > clue how to clean a stone. We have to stop the ones that think they do but > don't really. > Sheila > > Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: > There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky > Explorer: > > Dear Editor: > > Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of > cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take > along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven > cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo > pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a > few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone > will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. > > If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that > contains acid, but be careful. > > If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white > chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from > various distances. > > James Steed > > I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed > many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I > explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers > and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her > stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he > didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that > granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this > technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to > write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there > anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? > Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something > together. > > Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher > Kentucky Explorer > PO Box 227 > Jackson, KY 41339 > > Thanks for your help! > > Rhonda Stoffer > Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services > Marion Public Library > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of > England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Personals > Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. > Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)

Rex, http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/pcrpstepbystep.html What a great idea. These steps are listed on this page and you will find the Connecticut Gravestone Network page for cleaning. These folks have more years on their monuments that Indiana or Texas. There is also methods on the Association of Grave- stone studies site. I think about the only area not on that page is covering the mower issues. I don't think anyone has completed a page for this. Heaven know they all need education on the mowing around the old stones. Other cleaning recipes are on the Toolbox page. I think most of the links are good now. Lois did a lot of work on these pages, and we are thankful for her work. Half of the restoration job is education. The 2 books on the main page are very helpful. http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/ L.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex Kirby" <rex@tyler.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:31 PM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! > Shelia, Rhonda and all, > I wholehearted agree with you but the question is how. But before I > address > that issue I would like to point out what Mr. Steed in his infinite wisdom > neglected to tell his faithful readers is that after it stays that way for > a > long time it will begin to deteriorate and there is nothing you can do > about it. He should have also advised them to be sure to take plenty of > pictures while they can because in time that's about all anyone will be > able > to read. > > It would appear to me that from his writing style he is somewhat educated > but evidently on other matters that have nothing to do with cemetery or > tombstone preservation. And I'm also puzzled why the Kentucky Explorer > didn't attach an editorial comment to Mr. Steed's letter pointing out at > the > very least that this method of cleaning could be detrimental to some grave > markers. Evidently they need a little education themselves and I hope you > or > someone can enlighten them. > > For more years than I care to admit I have been involved in updating old > surveys or enumerations of several very old cemeteries here in East Texas > as > well as having taken on the task of attempting to photograph all military > markers in all cemeteries in the county. During this time I have > encountered two occasions of so-called cleaning by someone in a cemetery. > One involved a lady who was using what looked like an ice scrapper in > attempting to remove lichen from a granite marker. I didn't say anything > to > her because I couldn't help but think it was her husband's monument and > she > made no effort to clean any other monument. I was close enough to see > that > she wiped the monument off with a dry rag after using the scrapper. After > looking at the dates on the tomb and noticing that the wife was perhaps > not > buried there assuming the absence of a death date was indicative of that > fact, I rationalized that it was her tomb and she could do what she > wanted. > > The second incident involves a cemetery with the oldest grave dating back > to > 1859. Many of the old sandstone markers are extremely difficult to read > and > indeed some have names and dates I can not read and I have tried mirrors > and > lights and various angles with the sun. But back to what I encountered. > On > my way to the cemetery one day I happened to stop at a nearby service > station for gas and a cold drink. While there I overheard a conversation > between two guys who obviously knew each other well. One of them asked > the > other one what had he been up to. Simple question until I heard his > answer. > He said well he had a little time off so he had just finished cleaning all > the monuments in this certain cemetery. This was the same cemetery where > I > was going so I was anxious to know what he had done. When I got there it > was obvious that he had power washed every monument in the cemetery > including those very old sandstone markers. In fact some of them had been > knocked over. On that particular day they looked nice but as I wondered > around I couldn't help but notice some damage from his good intentions. > > Now on the education angle . . . > I would like to have a list of does and don't that could be printed on > something like a 6 x 9 card stock paper to be laminated to make it weather > proof. Most of the rural cemeteries I am familiar with have a chain link > fence around them although some do not and I believe the various cemetery > associations and/or churches would permit me to place a small mail box > near > the entrance of the cemetery to hold those cards. I would estimate that > about 99% of the folks who visit these cemeteries do not have any clue > about > caring for a monument. I would also make these cards available to all the > monument dealers and funeral homes in this area. And of course, when the > card is finalized I would submit a copy to each Historical and > Genealogical > Association in East Texas for publication in one of their monthly > newsletters. And I suspect I could obtain the endorsement of either or > both > of those organizations printed on the bottom of the card. This would > avoid > the appearance of advertisement and would be of more significance to the > general public. Since reading Mr. Steed's method of cleaning I made > several > phone calls today and found no one with a list of proper and improper > methods of caring for or cleaning monuments. > > I will say there may be a list somewhere but I haven't seen one. As of > today I have not undertaken to go through the archived messages on this > board to compile such a list. I am hoping that someone a lot more > knowledgeable about this subject than I am can point me in the right > direction. It occurs to me that such a card readily available everywhere > would be one of the ways to educate the public. Many of the folks who > need > to know these things do not own a computer, do not read magazines on the > subject and never give it thought because they don't know any better. > > Have you got my card yet? > > Thanks for listening, er reading. > > Rex Kirby > Tyler, TX > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheila Rooker [mailto:gravefinder2003@yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:19 PM > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! > > Hello All, > > Hope you have all had a happy holiday. This is my 2 cents worth. > Educate, > Educate, Educate. We can't do enough to Educate.... Most people don't have > a > clue how to clean a stone. We have to stop the ones that think they do but > don't really. > Sheila > > Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: > There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky > Explorer: > > Dear Editor: > > Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of > cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take > along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven > cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo > pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a > few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone > will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. > > If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that > contains acid, but be careful. > > If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white > chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from > various distances. > > James Steed > > I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed > many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I > explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers > and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her > stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he > didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that > granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this > technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to > write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there > anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? > Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something > together. > > Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher > Kentucky Explorer > PO Box 227 > Jackson, KY 41339 > > Thanks for your help! > > Rhonda Stoffer > Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services > Marion Public Library > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of > England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Personals > Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. > Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of > "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) > >

Shelia, Rhonda and all, I wholehearted agree with you but the question is how. But before I address that issue I would like to point out what Mr. Steed in his infinite wisdom neglected to tell his faithful readers is that after it stays that way for a long time it will begin to deteriorate and there is nothing you can do about it. He should have also advised them to be sure to take plenty of pictures while they can because in time that's about all anyone will be able to read. It would appear to me that from his writing style he is somewhat educated but evidently on other matters that have nothing to do with cemetery or tombstone preservation. And I'm also puzzled why the Kentucky Explorer didn't attach an editorial comment to Mr. Steed's letter pointing out at the very least that this method of cleaning could be detrimental to some grave markers. Evidently they need a little education themselves and I hope you or someone can enlighten them. For more years than I care to admit I have been involved in updating old surveys or enumerations of several very old cemeteries here in East Texas as well as having taken on the task of attempting to photograph all military markers in all cemeteries in the county. During this time I have encountered two occasions of so-called cleaning by someone in a cemetery. One involved a lady who was using what looked like an ice scrapper in attempting to remove lichen from a granite marker. I didn't say anything to her because I couldn't help but think it was her husband's monument and she made no effort to clean any other monument. I was close enough to see that she wiped the monument off with a dry rag after using the scrapper. After looking at the dates on the tomb and noticing that the wife was perhaps not buried there assuming the absence of a death date was indicative of that fact, I rationalized that it was her tomb and she could do what she wanted. The second incident involves a cemetery with the oldest grave dating back to 1859. Many of the old sandstone markers are extremely difficult to read and indeed some have names and dates I can not read and I have tried mirrors and lights and various angles with the sun. But back to what I encountered. On my way to the cemetery one day I happened to stop at a nearby service station for gas and a cold drink. While there I overheard a conversation between two guys who obviously knew each other well. One of them asked the other one what had he been up to. Simple question until I heard his answer. He said well he had a little time off so he had just finished cleaning all the monuments in this certain cemetery. This was the same cemetery where I was going so I was anxious to know what he had done. When I got there it was obvious that he had power washed every monument in the cemetery including those very old sandstone markers. In fact some of them had been knocked over. On that particular day they looked nice but as I wondered around I couldn't help but notice some damage from his good intentions. Now on the education angle . . . I would like to have a list of does and don't that could be printed on something like a 6 x 9 card stock paper to be laminated to make it weather proof. Most of the rural cemeteries I am familiar with have a chain link fence around them although some do not and I believe the various cemetery associations and/or churches would permit me to place a small mail box near the entrance of the cemetery to hold those cards. I would estimate that about 99% of the folks who visit these cemeteries do not have any clue about caring for a monument. I would also make these cards available to all the monument dealers and funeral homes in this area. And of course, when the card is finalized I would submit a copy to each Historical and Genealogical Association in East Texas for publication in one of their monthly newsletters. And I suspect I could obtain the endorsement of either or both of those organizations printed on the bottom of the card. This would avoid the appearance of advertisement and would be of more significance to the general public. Since reading Mr. Steed's method of cleaning I made several phone calls today and found no one with a list of proper and improper methods of caring for or cleaning monuments. I will say there may be a list somewhere but I haven't seen one. As of today I have not undertaken to go through the archived messages on this board to compile such a list. I am hoping that someone a lot more knowledgeable about this subject than I am can point me in the right direction. It occurs to me that such a card readily available everywhere would be one of the ways to educate the public. Many of the folks who need to know these things do not own a computer, do not read magazines on the subject and never give it thought because they don't know any better. Have you got my card yet? Thanks for listening, er reading. Rex Kirby Tyler, TX -----Original Message----- From: Sheila Rooker [mailto:gravefinder2003@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 5:19 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! Hello All, Hope you have all had a happy holiday. This is my 2 cents worth. Educate, Educate, Educate. We can't do enough to Educate.... Most people don't have a clue how to clean a stone. We have to stop the ones that think they do but don't really. Sheila Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer: Dear Editor: Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that contains acid, but be careful. If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from various distances. James Steed I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something together. Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher Kentucky Explorer PO Box 227 Jackson, KY 41339 Thanks for your help! Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)

Rhonda: I can't believe that letter. Really sounds like an "April Fool" letter but this is the wrong time of year. Joan Wray Tipton County ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheila Rooker" <gravefinder2003@yahoo.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 6:18 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] You won't believe this one - please help! Hello All, Hope you have all had a happy holiday. This is my 2 cents worth. Educate, Educate, Educate. We can't do enough to Educate.... Most people don't have a clue how to clean a stone. We have to stop the ones that think they do but don't really. Sheila Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer: Dear Editor: Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that contains acid, but be careful. If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from various distances. James Steed I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something together. Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher Kentucky Explorer PO Box 227 Jackson, KY 41339 Thanks for your help! Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of "UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) --- --- --- ---

Hello All, Hope you have all had a happy holiday. This is my 2 cents worth. Educate, Educate, Educate. We can't do enough to Educate.... Most people don't have a clue how to clean a stone. We have to stop the ones that think they do but don't really. Sheila Rhonda Stoffer <rstoffer@marion.lib.in.us> wrote: There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer: Dear Editor: Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that contains acid, but be careful. If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from various distances. James Steed I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something together. Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher Kentucky Explorer PO Box 227 Jackson, KY 41339 Thanks for your help! Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals." --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Try Yahoo! Personals

Your right! I can't believe this was printed in a mag! All the best, Tom

There is a letter to the editor in the Jan 2006 issue of Kentucky Explorer: Dear Editor: Cleaning grave markers in not always a hard job. Buy a pair of cheap rubber gloves, Brillo pads, and Easy Off oven cleaner and take along a bucket of water and an old-fashioned scrub brush. Spray the oven cleaner on the stone, scrub it with water and the brush, use a Brillo pad. Leave the cleaner on the marker, do not wash off. Come back in a few weeks and it will look cleaner. By repeating this process the stone will look a lot cleaner and stay that way for a long time. If you run into a tougher cleaning job, buy a cleaner that contains acid, but be careful. If you would like to take photos of the marker, buy some white chalk and run it over the names and dates, then take pictures from various distances. James Steed I called the magazine, the lady there said Mr. Steed had contributed many items and photos to the publication and he was really good. I explained that you don't use chemicals and Brillo pads on grave markers and the damage that could occur. She said she used a power washer on her stones, I explained the danger of that also. She also said that he didn't specify what type of marker he was cleaning, I explained that granite markers rarely need to be cleaned, so people would be using this technique on marble and sandstone markers. She said if I would like to write a letter to the editor they would be happy to print it. Is there anyone who is more knowledgeable than I who would like to write to them? Or, better yet, many people write to them? If not, I'll put something together. Charles Hayes, Jr, publisher Kentucky Explorer PO Box 227 Jackson, KY 41339 Thanks for your help! Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library

Jeannie, I have a problem with what you said. If a fence post is considered construction, what about a Trustee being required by law to fence qualifying cemeteries. Is he doing construction, and does he need to file a preliminary plan also, or be in violation. If this is the Law, there might well be less cemeteries fenced off. I had not heard this before.? On this cemetery, they are not going to fence it 50 X 50, they are going to go probably 60 X 60, which means there is very little chance they would come in contact with human remains. They have already said that is what they want to avoid. Jack Briles jackbriles@aol.com

Thanks L A and Ernie, I now have what I needed. thanks to both of you. Jack Briles jackbriles@aol.com

Hi Jack, It's connected to the main page under this heading. Indiana laws pertaining to cemeteries & Government http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/Links_to_the_Indiana_laws.htm la ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jackbriles@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 1:57 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Law Concerning 100 ft. > > Hi everyone, I have a problem. I have lost my copy of cemetery Laws > temporarily. > Could someone tell me if a plan must be filed with the DHPA and/or the > DNR or both if no disturbance is planed within the 100 ft. zone around a > cemetery. > Is it necessary to file the plan in order to get approval on the Plat, > or only before the actual construction begins. I seem to remember something > about filing one before construction takes place {within} 100ft of a cemetery. > But I believe if you do not disturb the soil in the 100 feet, or disturb the > cemetery, it is not necessary. Ernie I believe you have a copy of the Laws, > maybe you could help me out. I have not heard from Jeannie and we are scheduled > for a preliminary hearing Monday evening at 6:00. and the Zoning Board wants to > make sure there is full compliance with the Laws. > Thanks, Ernie, or anyone else that can help me out. I am leaving for > Kentucky in about 45 minutes and wont be back until tomorrow evening. I wont have > time to look up Cemetery Laws. > > Jack Briles > jackbriles@aol.com > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. > Thank you. > >

Hello Jack, The way I am reading it, you only have to file a plan if it is within the 100 feet of the cemetery: IC 14-21-1-26.5 A person may not disturb the ground within 100 feet of a burial ground or cemetery for the purpose of erecting, altering or repairing any structure without having a development plan approved by DHPA If they are not disturbing the cemetery, I see no reason for getting the plan approved by the DHPA. Ernie At 12:57 PM 11/19/2005, you wrote: >Hi everyone, I have a problem. I have lost my copy of cemetery Laws >temporarily. > Could someone tell me if a plan must be filed with the DHPA and/or the >DNR or both if no disturbance is planed within the 100 ft. zone around a >cemetery. > Is it necessary to file the plan in order to get approval on the Plat, >or only before the actual construction begins. I seem to remember something >about filing one before construction takes place {within} 100ft of a >cemetery. >But I believe if you do not disturb the soil in the 100 feet, or disturb the >cemetery, it is not necessary. Ernie I believe you have a copy of the Laws, >maybe you could help me out. I have not heard from Jeannie and we >are scheduled >for a preliminary hearing Monday evening at 6:00. and the Zoning >Board wants to >make sure there is full compliance with the Laws. > Thanks, Ernie, or anyone else that can help me out. I am leaving for >Kentucky in about 45 minutes and wont be back until tomorrow >evening. I wont have >time to look up Cemetery Laws. > > Jack Briles > jackbriles@aol.com > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer >Cemeteries Restoration Project only. >Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The >surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at >http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. >Thank you.

Hi everyone, I have a problem. I have lost my copy of cemetery Laws temporarily. Could someone tell me if a plan must be filed with the DHPA and/or the DNR or both if no disturbance is planed within the 100 ft. zone around a cemetery. Is it necessary to file the plan in order to get approval on the Plat, or only before the actual construction begins. I seem to remember something about filing one before construction takes place {within} 100ft of a cemetery. But I believe if you do not disturb the soil in the 100 feet, or disturb the cemetery, it is not necessary. Ernie I believe you have a copy of the Laws, maybe you could help me out. I have not heard from Jeannie and we are scheduled for a preliminary hearing Monday evening at 6:00. and the Zoning Board wants to make sure there is full compliance with the Laws. Thanks, Ernie, or anyone else that can help me out. I am leaving for Kentucky in about 45 minutes and wont be back until tomorrow evening. I wont have time to look up Cemetery Laws. Jack Briles jackbriles@aol.com

Jeannie`s e-mail is JRDinius@dnr.in.gov cousin Bob

Can anyone e-mail me right away and tell me if I used the right address for her. Thanks Jack Briles

Jack, Here is the contact info that I had: DNR-Division of Historic Preservation and Archaeology 402 W. Washington Street, W274 Indianapolis, Indiana 46204-2739 317-232-1646 317-232-0693 Fax <mailto:dhpa@dnr.in.gov>dhpa@dnr.in.gov <mailto:dhpa@dnr.in.gov>jrdinius<mailto:dhpa@dnr.in.gov>@dnr.in.gov At 12:03 PM 11/18/2005, you wrote: >Can anyone e-mail me right away and tell me if I used the right address for >her. >Thanks >Jack Briles > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister >of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals."

Jeannie, First, please excuse my wording and writing, I'm a little rusty, it's been a while. I met on Wednesday, Nov. 16th with the Property owner, the Surveyor, and the Developer on a Tract of Land scheduled for Development in Floyd Co. The "CRONE" Cemetery 50' X 50' is located on the property. They are scheduled to go before the County Zoning board on Monday, November 21st, The Board wants them to comply with all Laws Concerning Cemeteries in Indiana before they will approve the Plat. I met with them Wednesday and explained about the 100' law. I have known the property owner for about 45 years. He called me and asked if I could meet them there and go over the cemetery size, and discuss cleaning and fencing the cemetery. They want to fence and clean the cemetery before the work starts. They also wanted to know if they would be violating the Law if they used a Landscaping Tractor with an Auger on the back to dig the fence post holes from the outside of the cemetery. I advised them I really did not consider that construction, since that is what the Trustee would have to do if he fenced it. The fence will be larger than the actual cemetery. The only need to enter the cemetery would be to cut and clean trees and small shrubs. There will also be 4 lots that will extend into one side of the 100' , but these lots will only contain yards, the houses constructed will be outside of the 100' . On the other side there will be a 6' easement and a gate for access for access and visiting and maintenance. They also asked about planting shrubbery around the cemetery, and would this be a problem. There is a planed "GREEN" zone surrounding the cemetery. They want to plant low growing shrubs like mixing in a few Burning bushes with Evergreens so it would be aesthetically a part of the Subdivision. As of now, there will be no encroachment on the 100' at any point. The owners eventual plan is to Deed the cemetery over to the Township Trustee, and lock the gate and give the key to the Trustee. This is what was done at the cemetery at Southport, in Marion Co. A sign was posted that the key was at the Trustees office, to visit, all you had to do was drop by and pick it up. This has turned out to be very acceptable. This is not a cemetery that will be visited by anyone more than maybe 1 or 2 people every tow years, if at all. The Last burial was, I believe about 1875. Now, what they need to know is, must they file a preliminary Plan, since there will be no disturbing of the cemetery, or disturbing of the ground around it. If so, exactly what would they need to do before they go to the County Board Monday night for obtaining approval of the Plat. I'm sort of out of touch since our accident April 1st. and my wife broke her neck in 3 places. I guess what I need to know, is do they need to file a Preliminary Plan before they get approval, or can they file one before they begin any work, outside of cleaning and fencing the cemetery. (would the Landscaping tractor with the Auger for digging the fence post holes make it necessary to file the plan first.) I thank you for your time, and due to the Monday meeting I would appreciate some kind of an answer ASAP, Sincerily, Jack Briles jackbriles@aol.com Po Box 444 New Albany, In 47151-0444 (812)282-6585