In a message dated 12/31/01 6:52:32 AM US Eastern Standard Time, cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > I hope to use the large numbers and percentages of cemeteries that are lost > in a loophole like this to convince others here we need a board that looks > out for these or I will have to take each one to the commissioners on > separate occasions and ask for help. > Could a county declare all graveyards excepted out of deeds to belong to the > county, or township? Would they have the legal requirements to make such a > declaration? > Cris West Columbus, IN Cris, I believe the E-Mail I sent out about 12:15 Monday morning may help in some way, answer your questions. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

In a message dated 12/30/01 9:02:48 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dtauber@kiva.net writes: > Sec. 2. If land has not been appropriated or set apart by the owners by > platting for a public cemetery and it is necessary to purchase real estate > for > the cemetery: > (1) the legislative body of the city or town; > (2) the executive of the township; > (3) the trustees or directors of the corporation or association; or > (4) the other owners; > have the power of eminent domain to condemn and appropriate the land for > cemetery > purposes under proceedings provided by statute. > As added by P.L.52-1997, SEC.49 > > Donna Tauber > Spiceland Township Trustee of Henry County > > > > Donna, If you check the meaning of the Section you cited I believe you will find that it applies to the need or use of ground for a cemetery either not already in existence, or the need to enlarge one already in existence. It is only my personal interpretation of the law that it does not apply to Excepted cemeteries not in an active state and More than likely "Land Locked". And yes cemeteries sitting inside the boundaries of a piece of Land which does not come in contact with a Public right of way, and do not have a Deeded access to them does not fall under this Law. Rights of Eminent Domain apply only to Property that is necessary for the Good of the Public in General. It does not apply to un used land occupied by a cemetery in the middle of a field with no apparent benefits to the Public Good. I wish this were not true, it would make it less cumbersome to attempt to get landowners to consent to allow Trustees and Groups such as the INPCRP, and local historic organizations the right to go in and clean them up. I have read and reread the Laws and I can find no legal way without Legislation of some sort to help us all achieve our often stated goals. Maybe we should all concentrate on getting some kind of law passed that would require some realistic Legislation that might require a little more effort on the part of Legislatures. It would give us something to work toward for the New Year. The above is only my interpretation of the Laws as I understand them. I wish we could get the DNR or the Legislature to help on this subject. Donna, I wish to thank you very much. It makes me feel much better to Hear from a Trustee who is willing to speak up. This means you are doing your job. The residents in your Township should be very appreciative to have someone who really cares. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

> > Jon, > > Tom Cannon, Floyd County Trustee cannot go onto private Property to Clear > > or Maintain any kind of cemetery without the Property owners consent. If > > the cemetery is Land Locked, without Trespassing, unless it Was Deeded to > > the Trustee. Then a right of way would have to be in the Deed also. This has come up recently here in Bartholomew County on another cemetery. A new trustee appointed to fill a vacancy has quickly become my favorite, going after the cemeteries instead of waiting for someone to complain. One of the ones he feels obliged to maintain was excepted out of the middle of a piece of property, even the location was described, but unfortunately it references only a tree at the head of a tombstone and circles itself. Since the headstones have been removed and the tree is long gone, it provides little help in finding its location, but the stones were are just moved to the fencerow. The owner has had trouble with the law before concerning animal cruelty and during the investigation of that incident about 1993, a conservation officer happened upon this cemetery and it made a few stories in the local paper. From that, the officer began a personal 'quest' and ended up testifying before some politicians in Indpls about it. Now, this landowner doesn't want the trustee to enter his property, which for the moment, is only needed by the trustee to access the amount of money it will take to fix it. This trustee has talked to me several times and is currently requesting my help in obtaining official records to all those he maintains. He asked for all the deeds, but I explained that of the 6 documented cemeteries in his township, deeds only exist for 4 of them and that is good compared to the other townships. I hope to use the large numbers and percentages of cemeteries that are lost in a loophole like this to convince others here we need a board that looks out for these or I will have to take each one to the commissioners on separate occasions and ask for help. Could a county declare all graveyards excepted out of deeds to belong to the county, or township? Would they have the legal requirements to make such a declaration? Cris West Columbus, IN

INDIANA CODE reads as follows: IC 23-14-75 Chapter 75. Eminent Domain Acquisition of Cemetery Land IC 23-14-75-1 Sec. 1. This chapter applies to the following: (1) A: (A) city; (B) town; (C) township; (D) corporation or association; or (E) another owner; that owns or controls a public cemetery that has been in existence for at least thirty (30) years. (2) A: (A) city, town, or township; or (B) corporation or association that owns a cemetery that has been in existence for at least thirty (30) years; that desires to own a public cemetery. As added by P.L.52-1997, SEC.49. IC 23-14-75-2 Sec. 2. If land has not been appropriated or set apart by the owners by platting for a public cemetery and it is necessary to purchase real estate for the cemetery: (1) the legislative body of the city or town; (2) the executive of the township; (3) the trustees or directors of the corporation or association; or (4) the other owners; have the power of eminent domain to condemn and appropriate the land for cemetery purposes under proceedings provided by statute. As added by P.L.52-1997, SEC.49 Donna Tauber Spiceland Township Trustee of Henry County Jb502000@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/30/01 4:53:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > sianoil@hotmail.com writes: > > > My understanding has always been that an "excepted out cemetery" falls in > > the lap of a township trustee. > > > > > > Jon, > > Tom Cannon, Floyd County Trustee cannot go onto private Property to Clear > > or Maintain any kind of cemetery without the Property owners consent. If > > the cemetery is Land Locked, without Trespassing, unless it Was Deeded to > > the Trustee. Then a right of way would have to be in the Deed also. I'm > > sure this is right, but I can't find out until Tom gets back in his office. > > State Law prohibits a person from entering another's property without their > > Express consent, unless there is a right of way. I wish it was they way you > > suggested, it sure would make it easier for us to help restore some that > > badly need it and the owner wont allow access. We will never get the > > Legislature to address the Problem of "Excepted" Cemeteries that are out in > > the middle of someone's field. The Farm Lobby would fight that. Luckily all > > Farmers don't feel that way. The re are a lot of farmers willing to help. > > Jack E. Briles, Sr. > jb502000@aol.com > Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator > PO Box 444 > New Albany, In. 47151-0444 > (812) 282-6585 > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

Hi Hi, In California land cannot be landlocked. In the instance of cemeteries, where members of the family or public or both have used a road or path to the cemetery, that access becomes a "precriptive easement." That means, that even if it's not deeded, the express use of that route to the property, as if they believed it was a public access for the number of years the access was used, becomes unextinguishable. It's a prescriptive (by prior use) easement. Sue Silver CA ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2001 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? > In a message dated 12/30/01 4:53:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > sianoil@hotmail.com writes: > > > > My understanding has always been that an "excepted out cemetery" falls in > > the lap of a township trustee. > > > > > > Jon, > > Tom Cannon, Floyd County Trustee cannot go onto private Property to Clear > > or Maintain any kind of cemetery without the Property owners consent. If > > the cemetery is Land Locked, without Trespassing, unless it Was Deeded to > > the Trustee. Then a right of way would have to be in the Deed also. I'm > > sure this is right, but I can't find out until Tom gets back in his office. > > State Law prohibits a person from entering another's property without their > > Express consent, unless there is a right of way. I wish it was they way you > > suggested, it sure would make it easier for us to help restore some that > > badly need it and the owner wont allow access. We will never get the > > Legislature to address the Problem of "Excepted" Cemeteries that are out in > > the middle of someone's field. The Farm Lobby would fight that. Luckily all > > Farmers don't feel that way. The re are a lot of farmers willing to help. > > > Jack E. Briles, Sr. > jb502000@aol.com > Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator > PO Box 444 > New Albany, In. 47151-0444 > (812) 282-6585 > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > >

In a message dated 12/30/01 4:53:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time, sianoil@hotmail.com writes: > My understanding has always been that an "excepted out cemetery" falls in > the lap of a township trustee. > > > Jon, > Tom Cannon, Floyd County Trustee cannot go onto private Property to Clear > or Maintain any kind of cemetery without the Property owners consent. If > the cemetery is Land Locked, without Trespassing, unless it Was Deeded to > the Trustee. Then a right of way would have to be in the Deed also. I'm > sure this is right, but I can't find out until Tom gets back in his office. > State Law prohibits a person from entering another's property without their > Express consent, unless there is a right of way. I wish it was they way you > suggested, it sure would make it easier for us to help restore some that > badly need it and the owner wont allow access. We will never get the > Legislature to address the Problem of "Excepted" Cemeteries that are out in > the middle of someone's field. The Farm Lobby would fight that. Luckily all > Farmers don't feel that way. The re are a lot of farmers willing to help. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

My understanding has always been that an "excepted out cemetery" falls in the lap of a township trustee. >From: Jb502000@aol.com >Reply-To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:13:20 EST > >In a message dated 12/29/01 8:04:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, >ssilver1951@jps.net writes: > > > > If the title has failed for want of an heir or next of kin and the land > > title reverts to the public (people), why can't the county trustees just > > file a notice of failed title to record the property in public title? > > > > Better yet, does Indiana have a statute the enables the counties to > > establish "abandoned" (left behind) cemeteries as "Pioneer Memorial >Parks"? > > In California, all the county has to do is publish notice declaring the > > cemetery closed to future burials, and take public comment, and then it > > can't quiet the title under the provisions of this statute. (California > > Health and Safety Code Sec. 8825-8829) > > > > Sue Silver > > > > Thanks Sue, > > You asked a good question. As far as who owns an Excepted cemetery, I > > really can't say with 100% accuracy, but I bet you I will start Monday > > Morning to Find out. Thanks for the Question. Jon, are you able to >answer > > this for sure. > > >Jack E. Briles, Sr. >jb502000@aol.com >Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator >PO Box 444 >New Albany, In. 47151-0444 >(812) 282-6585 > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of >England >and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

------------------- >>>.but what about the juvenile delinquents that broke out 80 year old stained glass windows and broke off 150 year old tombstones in the cemetery that I serve as secretary for? What kind of example are we setting for them if we allow the destruction of cemeteries by adults?<<< People are not listening to what I am saying. I say no felonies and they quit reading right there. I have said in a few post that a fine of a few thousand $$$s WOULD make an impact. The fines of a few hundred are NOT. How pissed would you be if your KID got you stuck with paying a fine of $2,000. For one I would say that's at least one year of college I am NOT paying for. Better yet, the car insurance for that year is now going to the courts, so they ca

In a message dated 12/29/01 9:04:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > I was told by the County Auditor that he would have his people put labels on > the property cards of the parcels I could prove had graveyards located on > them Cris, I don't know if anyone on the list has said anything useful or not, but I hope so. I am quiet moved by what the Auditor told you about putting Labels on any parcel you could prove had graveyards on them. That was certainly big of them. They say you find them and we will apply the words. They aren't even required on Property Transfers prior to the Law going into effect. After that the Auditor, Assessor and Recorders offices should be watching these, or at least asking about cemeteries. It really is nice to have Free help from the public to do some Politicians Job for them. I have asked everyone in Floyd County who is responsible for seeing that these Deeds are properly marked for a cemetery. The Answer I get from everyone is, THE SELLER. I wonder if the Sellers are more informed than their Attorneys who draw up the Deeds. Good Luck. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

In a message dated 12/29/01 8:04:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ssilver1951@jps.net writes: > If the title has failed for want of an heir or next of kin and the land > title reverts to the public (people), why can't the county trustees just > file a notice of failed title to record the property in public title? > > Better yet, does Indiana have a statute the enables the counties to > establish "abandoned" (left behind) cemeteries as "Pioneer Memorial Parks"? > In California, all the county has to do is publish notice declaring the > cemetery closed to future burials, and take public comment, and then it > can't quiet the title under the provisions of this statute. (California > Health and Safety Code Sec. 8825-8829) > > Sue Silver > > Thanks Sue, > You asked a good question. As far as who owns an Excepted cemetery, I > really can't say with 100% accuracy, but I bet you I will start Monday > Morning to Find out. Thanks for the Question. Jon, are you able to answer > this for sure. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

In a message dated 12/29/01 2:57:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time, sianoil@hotmail.com writes: > Jack: > You and I are pretty much on the same page, except I don't really think the > term "no man's land" is quite the way to describe it. That to me sounds > like > the term abandoned, which for all practical purposes, I and the State, > namely the DNR, don't agree on the definition of. Jon, Thanks for the response, we need more of this type of discussion to determine just what kind of things can, and should be done. I agree the Term "No Mans Land" does sound as you say. But it is almost that when the present Owner(s) don't visit nor maintain the ground and refuse to allow anyone else Access to the Burial site. I also understand what you say about "Someone or Some Govt.Entity owning it" But here in Floyd County I found several Deeds dating back as far as 1826 where the land was Deeded to the Deacons of a particular church, or the property surrounding the cemetery was sold by the party that bought it from the United States, to a Second party, and during their first ownership started a "Graveyard" and it was merely placed on the first Sale Deed as an Exception. These Cemeteries or Graveyards never appeared on any succeeding Deed to this day. Since the first owner Excepted it, the second person to own the surrounding property never came into Legal Possession of The ground containing, or designated as a Cemetery. Therefore the second owners descendants, nor anyone else's succeeding descendants have a claim to the cemetery that would stand a court test. And Because the first owner set the Cemetery aside from the rest of his property, then not even any of his family can lay a Legal claim to the Cemetery. Besides that, no one would claim it because to be an actual owner you would be responsible. (Although the ones claiming these Cemeteries on their property are very Irresponsible) No Individuals want to do this, and Believe me, NO church that was named as owner by virtue of having the property signed over to their Deacons in 1826 WANT ANY PART OF THESE CEMETERIES. What's the answer Jon. Does anyone else have an answer? I Also believe that neither the State nor the County has any kind of claim to the Ground. In cases like this I do believe that the Township Trustee might be able to Petition the Court to turn over the Ownership of the Cemetery to his office. The fact that Taxes are paid on the ground might stop this idea. I am not in favor of this, but we all know if something isn't done, and done quickly the un cared for Cemeteries which are our only glimpse, or view into our past will soon be gone forever.. For instance I belong to the MO-Cem list and I found a Missouri Law we might want to find out more about. It says in essence that a Property owner with a Cemetery, that belonged to either a family, or abandoned church must grant access to the cemetery to those wishing to visit. They must state when they would like to visit, and the visit must be in conjunction with a normal cemetery visit. Access will be thru the same as the Property owner would use him or her self to Access the Site. Not the Best Law I ever saw, but darned better than what WE have now. I don't believe in usurping the rights of the Property owner, but when they have a cemetery they should morally allow visitation. If the situation was reversed, I'm sure they would feel like I and many others do. I hope this makes sense. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

CA to IN, If the title has failed for want of an heir or next of kin and the land title reverts to the public (people), why can't the county trustees just file a notice of failed title to record the property in public title? Better yet, does Indiana have a statute the enables the counties to establish "abandoned" (left behind) cemeteries as "Pioneer Memorial Parks"? In California, all the county has to do is publish notice declaring the cemetery closed to future burials, and take public comment, and then it can't quiet the title under the provisions of this statute. (California Health and Safety Code Sec. 8825-8829) Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? > In a message dated 12/29/01 2:57:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > sianoil@hotmail.com writes: > > > > Jack: > > You and I are pretty much on the same page, except I don't really think the > > term "no man's land" is quite the way to describe it. That to me sounds > > like > > the term abandoned, which for all practical purposes, I and the State, > > namely the DNR, don't agree on the definition of. > > Jon, Thanks for the response, we need more of this type of discussion to > determine just what kind of things can, and should be done. > I agree the Term "No Mans Land" does sound as you say. But it is > almost that when the present Owner(s) don't visit nor maintain the ground and > refuse to allow anyone else Access to the Burial site. I also understand what > you say about "Someone or Some Govt.Entity owning it" But here in Floyd > County I found several Deeds dating back as far as 1826 where the land was > Deeded to the Deacons of a particular church, or the property surrounding the > cemetery was sold by the party that bought it from the United States, to a > Second party, and during their first ownership started a "Graveyard" and it > was merely placed on the first Sale Deed as an Exception. These Cemeteries or > Graveyards never appeared on any succeeding Deed to this day. Since the first > owner Excepted it, the second person to own the surrounding property never > came into Legal Possession of The ground containing, or designated as a > Cemetery. Therefore the second owners descendants, nor anyone else's > succeeding descendants have a claim to the cemetery that would stand a court > test. And Because the first owner set the Cemetery aside from the rest of his > property, then not even any of his family can lay a Legal claim to the > Cemetery. Besides that, no one would claim it because to be an actual owner > you would be responsible. (Although the ones claiming these Cemeteries on > their property are very Irresponsible) No Individuals want to do this, and > Believe me, NO church that was named as owner by virtue of having the > property signed over to their Deacons in 1826 WANT ANY PART OF THESE > CEMETERIES. What's the answer Jon. Does anyone else have an > answer? > I Also believe that neither the State nor the County has any > kind of claim to the Ground. In cases like this I do believe that the > Township Trustee might be able to Petition the Court to turn over the > Ownership of the Cemetery to his office. The fact that Taxes are paid on the > ground might stop this idea. I am not in favor of this, but we all know if > something isn't done, and done quickly the un cared for Cemeteries which are > our only glimpse, or view into our past will soon be gone forever.. > For instance I belong to the MO-Cem list and I found a Missouri > Law we might want to find out more about. It says in essence that a Property > owner with a Cemetery, that belonged to either a family, or abandoned church > must grant access to the cemetery to those wishing to visit. They must state > when they would like to visit, and the visit must be in conjunction with a > normal cemetery visit. Access will be thru the same as the Property owner > would use him or her self to Access the Site. Not the Best Law I ever saw, > but darned better than what WE have now. > I don't believe in usurping the rights of the Property owner, but > when they have a cemetery they should morally allow visitation. If the > situation was reversed, I'm sure they would feel like I and many others do. > I hope this makes sense. > > Jack E. Briles, Sr. > jb502000@aol.com > Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator > PO Box 444 > New Albany, In. 47151-0444 > (812) 282-6585 > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Please do not send queries through this list. > >

Hi from drizzly California, In our state when title to land fails for want of an heir or next of kin, it REVERTS TO THE PUBLIC. The state says that all land must be owned by someone. If not an individual, then by the government. California Government Code Sec. 182. Doesn't Indiana have a similar statute to establish title to these types of lands where the title has failed (ie churches that walk away, etc.)? Somebody should try to find this out! Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: "jon andrews" <sianoil@hotmail.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? > Jack: > You and I are pretty much on the same page, except I don't really think the > term "no man's land" is quite the way to describe it. That to me sounds like > the term abandoned, which for all practical purposes, I and the State, > namely the DNR, don't agree on the definition of. I know what you are trying > to say, but someone, somewhere, does own that hole in the property > (township, county, heir, etc) and depending on the case they may very well > still have a right to the access to it. Access does not have to continually > used to maintain it, just for it to be taken away. It's just a good example > of how screwed up things are. In my opinion, it all goes back to the law > which states that all cemeteries before 1939 have to be recorded. In > essence, if they are not they do not exist. Well, whose obligation is this > or was it to document these. I think the county has or had some obligation > to protect the landowner's rights along with the rights owned by the > inhabitants of the cemeteries or their heirs. > > Jon > > >From: Jb502000@aol.com > >Reply-To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > >To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? > >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:38:16 EST > > > >In a message dated 12/29/01 9:04:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > >cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > > > > > > > I said, suppose you & I wanted to go see this cemetery, we would get in > >a > > > car and drive out to there. Since this particular one is in the middle > >of > > > a wooded area back up off the road, we would first have to stop and ask > > > someone, THIS LANDOWNER, where it was, get his permission to go there > >and > > > be given access by car to it, all by him. So in the REAL WORLD, he OWNS > > > the cemetery. > > > > > > > >Cris, > > First, the Auditor is not required by Law to put any kind of Notice on > >Deeds > >containing Graveyards, at least I, and the Floyd Co. Auditor can't find it. > >I'm sure you feel like I do that it should be in the Law, but it's not. > >This > >is done only on any New Property Transfers since the Law took effect, and > >is > >the Responsibility of the Poor Seller to know the Law. You would think it > >would require Attorneys drawing up the Deeds to make sure this wording was > >placed on the Deed, but it doesn't read that way. > > > > Now, concerning the Excerpt above from your message; > > First he doesn't own the Cemetery Per Se. He owns the surrounding > >property, which you need permission to cross to obtain Access to the > >Cemetery > >so that you are not guilty of Trespassing. (I know it's not his Cemetery, > >but > >unless you go in by Helicopter you need His or Her permission to get there) > >With an Exception, regardless of how an attorney interprets it, the > >Exception > >removes the Cemetery from the Parcel and does not transfer ownership to the > >New Purchasers. In fact it specifically Denies them Ownership of the > >graveyard. It is a Veritable No Mans Land since it is no longer used for > >Burials, and the Access Rd., where ever it was is no longer Available for > >Ingress and Egress for individuals to Traverse You may find some cemeteries > >have a right of way described with the description of the cemetery. But > >Most > >don't. > > In Plain and Simple Language the Property owner(s) have a Hole > >in > >their Property that Legally they cannot use, nor are they required to > >maintain it. There are certain restrictions as to what they may or may not > >do. But according to the IC Law the Deed must have this Graveyard mentioned > >across the Front page in Bold Letters stating that this Property contains a > >Burial Ground or Cemetery. Also the old or New owners may pay Taxes on the > >Cemetery, but even if they do now, or have in the past, with the Exception > >on > >the Deed, paying of Taxes does not give them the rights of Ownership of the > >Excepted Cemetery Plot. In other words in plain and simple language they > >have > >a Hole in their Parcel of Land. Most owners believe also, that since it is > >not on their Deed as a Cemetery, the ground is theirs. If anyone can go > >back > >and find the first mention of the Graveyard, then it makes no difference if > >it is on the present Deed or not. Once it is mentioned it remains forever a > >Graveyard. All you need is a copy of first mention of Exception. Also as to > >the wording on the Deed about the cemetery, if the Seller Fails to do this, > >then they become responsible for any expenses incurred by the Purchaser > >concerning the cemetery. If any one disagrees with me, please feel free to > >correct me. Friendly discussions are beneficial to all of us. I may have > >misquoted something and stand to be corrected. > > > >Jack E. Briles, Sr. > >jb502000@aol.com > >Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator > >PO Box 444 > >New Albany, In. 47151-0444 > >(812) 282-6585 > > > > > > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > >Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Please do not send queries through this list. > >

Jack: You and I are pretty much on the same page, except I don't really think the term "no man's land" is quite the way to describe it. That to me sounds like the term abandoned, which for all practical purposes, I and the State, namely the DNR, don't agree on the definition of. I know what you are trying to say, but someone, somewhere, does own that hole in the property (township, county, heir, etc) and depending on the case they may very well still have a right to the access to it. Access does not have to continually used to maintain it, just for it to be taken away. It's just a good example of how screwed up things are. In my opinion, it all goes back to the law which states that all cemeteries before 1939 have to be recorded. In essence, if they are not they do not exist. Well, whose obligation is this or was it to document these. I think the county has or had some obligation to protect the landowner's rights along with the rights owned by the inhabitants of the cemeteries or their heirs. Jon >From: Jb502000@aol.com >Reply-To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Wheres the Cemetery? >Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 12:38:16 EST > >In a message dated 12/29/01 9:04:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, >cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > > > > I said, suppose you & I wanted to go see this cemetery, we would get in >a > > car and drive out to there. Since this particular one is in the middle >of > > a wooded area back up off the road, we would first have to stop and ask > > someone, THIS LANDOWNER, where it was, get his permission to go there >and > > be given access by car to it, all by him. So in the REAL WORLD, he OWNS > > the cemetery. > > > > >Cris, > First, the Auditor is not required by Law to put any kind of Notice on >Deeds >containing Graveyards, at least I, and the Floyd Co. Auditor can't find it. >I'm sure you feel like I do that it should be in the Law, but it's not. >This >is done only on any New Property Transfers since the Law took effect, and >is >the Responsibility of the Poor Seller to know the Law. You would think it >would require Attorneys drawing up the Deeds to make sure this wording was >placed on the Deed, but it doesn't read that way. > > Now, concerning the Excerpt above from your message; > First he doesn't own the Cemetery Per Se. He owns the surrounding >property, which you need permission to cross to obtain Access to the >Cemetery >so that you are not guilty of Trespassing. (I know it's not his Cemetery, >but >unless you go in by Helicopter you need His or Her permission to get there) >With an Exception, regardless of how an attorney interprets it, the >Exception >removes the Cemetery from the Parcel and does not transfer ownership to the >New Purchasers. In fact it specifically Denies them Ownership of the >graveyard. It is a Veritable No Mans Land since it is no longer used for >Burials, and the Access Rd., where ever it was is no longer Available for >Ingress and Egress for individuals to Traverse You may find some cemeteries >have a right of way described with the description of the cemetery. But >Most >don't. > In Plain and Simple Language the Property owner(s) have a Hole >in >their Property that Legally they cannot use, nor are they required to >maintain it. There are certain restrictions as to what they may or may not >do. But according to the IC Law the Deed must have this Graveyard mentioned >across the Front page in Bold Letters stating that this Property contains a >Burial Ground or Cemetery. Also the old or New owners may pay Taxes on the >Cemetery, but even if they do now, or have in the past, with the Exception >on >the Deed, paying of Taxes does not give them the rights of Ownership of the >Excepted Cemetery Plot. In other words in plain and simple language they >have >a Hole in their Parcel of Land. Most owners believe also, that since it is >not on their Deed as a Cemetery, the ground is theirs. If anyone can go >back >and find the first mention of the Graveyard, then it makes no difference if >it is on the present Deed or not. Once it is mentioned it remains forever a >Graveyard. All you need is a copy of first mention of Exception. Also as to >the wording on the Deed about the cemetery, if the Seller Fails to do this, >then they become responsible for any expenses incurred by the Purchaser >concerning the cemetery. If any one disagrees with me, please feel free to >correct me. Friendly discussions are beneficial to all of us. I may have >misquoted something and stand to be corrected. > >Jack E. Briles, Sr. >jb502000@aol.com >Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator >PO Box 444 >New Albany, In. 47151-0444 >(812) 282-6585 > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

In a message dated 12/29/01 9:04:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > I said, suppose you & I wanted to go see this cemetery, we would get in a > car and drive out to there. Since this particular one is in the middle of > a wooded area back up off the road, we would first have to stop and ask > someone, THIS LANDOWNER, where it was, get his permission to go there and > be given access by car to it, all by him. So in the REAL WORLD, he OWNS > the cemetery. > > Cris, First, the Auditor is not required by Law to put any kind of Notice on Deeds containing Graveyards, at least I, and the Floyd Co. Auditor can't find it. I'm sure you feel like I do that it should be in the Law, but it's not. This is done only on any New Property Transfers since the Law took effect, and is the Responsibility of the Poor Seller to know the Law. You would think it would require Attorneys drawing up the Deeds to make sure this wording was placed on the Deed, but it doesn't read that way. Now, concerning the Excerpt above from your message; First he doesn't own the Cemetery Per Se. He owns the surrounding property, which you need permission to cross to obtain Access to the Cemetery so that you are not guilty of Trespassing. (I know it's not his Cemetery, but unless you go in by Helicopter you need His or Her permission to get there) With an Exception, regardless of how an attorney interprets it, the Exception removes the Cemetery from the Parcel and does not transfer ownership to the New Purchasers. In fact it specifically Denies them Ownership of the graveyard. It is a Veritable No Mans Land since it is no longer used for Burials, and the Access Rd., where ever it was is no longer Available for Ingress and Egress for individuals to Traverse You may find some cemeteries have a right of way described with the description of the cemetery. But Most don't. In Plain and Simple Language the Property owner(s) have a Hole in their Property that Legally they cannot use, nor are they required to maintain it. There are certain restrictions as to what they may or may not do. But according to the IC Law the Deed must have this Graveyard mentioned across the Front page in Bold Letters stating that this Property contains a Burial Ground or Cemetery. Also the old or New owners may pay Taxes on the Cemetery, but even if they do now, or have in the past, with the Exception on the Deed, paying of Taxes does not give them the rights of Ownership of the Excepted Cemetery Plot. In other words in plain and simple language they have a Hole in their Parcel of Land. Most owners believe also, that since it is not on their Deed as a Cemetery, the ground is theirs. If anyone can go back and find the first mention of the Graveyard, then it makes no difference if it is on the present Deed or not. Once it is mentioned it remains forever a Graveyard. All you need is a copy of first mention of Exception. Also as to the wording on the Deed about the cemetery, if the Seller Fails to do this, then they become responsible for any expenses incurred by the Purchaser concerning the cemetery. If any one disagrees with me, please feel free to correct me. Friendly discussions are beneficial to all of us. I may have misquoted something and stand to be corrected. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

On the subject of the new requirements for deeds being recorded, here is what I have encountered in my little corner of the state: I was told by the County Auditor that he would have his people put labels on the property cards of the parcels I could prove had graveyards located on them. This would not be written in stone, but it would alert anyone researching the property such as surveyors and abstractors and let them know they had to follow the new codes on that property. It would also tell the auditors office when they pulled that card , which they do before accepting anything new on the property itself, they would know that the deed had to follow the new codes. So I have gone through on my SPARE time and located over 75% of out 155 gravesites on specific parcels. Of course, some have their own parcel, so they are the easy ones. Others, such as the Lewelling and Ogilvie families, are merely mentioned in a deed as an exception, stating in so many words "this deed is for all of the NE¼ of the NE¼ EXCEPT for a ¼ acre for a family graveyard." So for these, the obvious parcel to mark is the one it sets on, the one whose deed contains the exception, right? When the deed with the Ogilvie family came through the Auditor's office 2 weeks ago, I was alerted to it while the attorney who brought it in was still there, but they had already accepted the deed as it was, so the Auditor listened to my rantings about the laws and read them himself (as if it was the first time he had ever seen them) and said he'd have to call the lawyer up and get back with her on it, he agreed that this was an example of where these new laws were to be effected. I knew she merely went to the 2nd floor to record it at the Recorders office, so I stopped there and told her the auditor was looking for her. I should have gone with her, but I'm not good at that, so I went back to my office and waited 10 minutes before going back to see the recorder. NO SPECIAL NOTE WAS REQUIRED on this deed and it was recorded AS IS. Apparently I had been wrong. See (said the attorney), this deed is not for the cemetery, it is for everything EXCEPT the cemetery!!! Boy, I sure am stupid to have thought otherwise! So I went down to visit the auditor, who explained this new law about the recording of deeds to me, and confirmed, through his very recent interpretation by an impartial attorney, that the deed just recorded was not the deed to the cemetery, so therefore was not affected by the new laws. I asked the auditor, if I was suppose to locate these by parcel, what parcel is the cemetery on, he said "there isn't one". So it doesn't exist? I said, suppose you & I wanted to go see this cemetery, we would get in a car and drive out to there. Since this particular one is in the middle of a wooded area back up off the road, we would first have to stop and ask someone, THIS LANDOWNER, where it was, get his permission to go there and be given access by car to it, all by him. So in the REAL WORLD, he OWNS the cemetery. Just like the Lewelling graves at Shadow Creek Farms, this was a vague reference to a quarter-acre cemetery. I'm pretty sure from the amount of info on this one that is less that 7 graves, again like the Lewelling one. The Lewellings were laid side by side all in 1 row, and when some unofficial initial plans were faxed to me back in October, it called for a fenced-in line of 10 feet on all sides of the graves, creating a fenced-in area of less than 1/100th of an acre. In the case of Crossmann and Shadow Creek, that was my last contact from them, as the individual I was dealing with became upset with me over the phone and said that they owned ALL of the ground, regardless of the quarter-acre exception because it was farmed over long ago and taxes were paid on it (in both cases taxes were never paid on the quarter-acre), he said their lawyer said they had claim to adverse possession and whatever they fenced in would still be owned by them. I'm going off on a complete other! topic here, but this is still up in the air and I don't know what will happen. I couldn't help but think that if the plan dept lets that happen (let's just say they do), then the stand that the auditor just took with me over this Ogilvie cemetery is in contradiction and favors the corporation and developer over a private landowner. He said that the landowners knew they didn't own that quarter of an acre, even though the fenced-in area is probably not a full quarter-acre. If Crossmann can claim they own it all, so should all of these exceptions just be crossed out of all of these deeds, since the deeds are not for the cemeteries? So they get this ground for free? I thought I should share my experiences with this with everyone, but I know you all have met the same brick walls. We are knocking some down, though, and I have a feeling that 2002 will be the year Bartholomew County learns more about the graveyards located here than they ever wanted to know! Cris West Columbus, IN

OK...so let's say we protect this guy and keep him from losing any of his civil rights by not charging him with a felony...but what about the juvenile delinquents that broke out 80 year old stained glass windows and broke off 150 year old tombstones in the cemetery that I serve as secretary for? What kind of example are we setting for them if we allow the destruction of cemeteries by adults? Let's face it, Misdemeanors get reduced to probation and a small fine...felonies get reduced to misdemeanors. I spent ten years in the judicial system in this state and can attest to how screwed up things are, but it's not because we are too firm in our laws. It's because the Courts have too much discretion in how they handle the offenders. It's one thing to accidentally discover a cemetery while building a house, but to move the stones to make way for the construction is blatant...that is an aggrevating circumstance in my opinion. Oh, and one only loses his right to vote (disinfranchised) in Indiana while incarcerated. Once they are no longer detained, they have the right to register to vote once again. (IC 3-7-13-5) That should make you feel better, that your neighborhood sex offender can vote once released back into society... Kyle D. Conrad

> > Mr Keller, > > I lived in California near Berkley Campus, Nuff Said. Agh!! I am sorry!!

In a message dated 12/28/01 12:36:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, rvkeller@iupui.edu writes: > But that's ok, keep it > coming. Maybe New Albany will have their own 38th Street riot like Indy > did years ago. > > > Mr Keller, > I lived in California near Berkley Campus, Nuff Said. Jack E. Briles, Sr. jb502000@aol.com Floyd County INPCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

My husband's in the hospital again and I just came home to get some sleep. I checked my e-mail when I came in and picked up a goodly number of INPCRP messages since I left home at 5:30 this morning. I'll check on the list again before I go back to the hospital this evening, but in the meantime I want to issue a word of CAUTION to the list: I urge all of you to keep this discussion CIVIL and do NOT let posted comments on the list become PERSONAL! As always, we are EACH entitled to our respective opinions and we can, at a minimum, agree to disagree. Lois