Well said Mark! ----- Original Message ----- From: "mark davis" <md9105@skyenet.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 8:16 AM Subject: [INPCRP] > Hello List, > > I had an idea. > > 1. Some Archealogists are not up to speed on cemetery restoration and stone repair. > > 2. 99.9% are professionals and would like to broaden their education. > > 3. There are people on this list that have extensive knowledge on restoration and repairs. > > 4. Find an a way to disseminate the info to the Archealogists through one of their Associations or > email groups. Give them as much info as possible. Websites,email,restoration guidelines,etc. > > I know its simplistic, but wouldnt it be better to partner together? Share the knowlege. > > I remain your obedient servant, > > > Mark Davis > 4 Lakeview Ct. > Hartford City,Indiana 47348 > md9105@skyenet.net > > > With malice toward none, with charity for all,with > firmness in the right as God gives us to see the > right,let us strive on to finish the work we are in... > > A. Lincoln March 4,1865 > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/02 > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net. >

HOW TRUE!!! AND THIS SHOWS HOW BI-POLAR WE ARE IN THIS CULTURE AT THIS TIME ;(with no intent to show disrespect to the victims of the terrible tragedy of Sept. 11,2001,) We are in this country at the present time,,,dozing out burial sites big time for such as shopping centers, vandalizing them,and at the same time in New York,working around the clock to find even the smallest piece of tissue to be buried/cremated to bring relief to the families of those lost...so what will happen to these remains in 100 yrs.....Ruth Pride RN Wheatland,Knox Co.

In a message dated 2/14/02 10:43:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time, ssilver1951@jps.net writes: > The point here is that most archaeologists truly have no experience in > things such as this. Yes, they know about human remains, and they can tell > you its a grave. But most of your lay persons with any common sense can > tell you that. Sue, I agree with you that all Archeologist are not top of the line, but in my 40 odd years as a Masonry Contractor I found this to be true in every Profession. As in my business, there were a lot of "Bad Apples" that I met. I also believe that when it comes to a Neglected, Destroyed or "Abandoned" cemetery such as we have in the Terrain here in the Hills of Southern Indiana, that my years of Volunteer work, and observation and studying of Burial Sites, I probably after 2 or 3 hours of study, can determine the size and approximate number of Burials as well as anyone. As I said earlier, I don't believe archaeologists are trained in working on 150 to 200 year old cemeteries. I am beginning to see where they, if nothing else should go out on a Saturday and begin to study "old Modern" cemeteries. A lot can be learned just by observation. As in my Profession, in my 40 odd years I have became a Paid Professional in my Work, I have had people ask me how I got my Knowledge, I explained from books and a LOT of practical experience. I never considered that I knew all there was to know. I continually worked on improvement. I never, never thought "I knew it all." Also, having lived in California 10 years, I am aware of some of what you are talking about. Most reports that were turned in to Cal-Trans were what they wanted. And if you wanted to work for them, or get a Contract from them, then you had better conform to what they expected. Here or in California, I feel sorry for some Archeologist, they are caught between the proverbial 'Rock and a hard place" They went to college, and they now have to make a Living. If they say the wrong thing at the wrong time their Living is in Jeopardy. The biggest problem I see is that I don't believe that their education covers some of the things they encounter in these older Destroyed cemeteries. They should try working closer with people like you that have no vested interest in the Cemetery, other than it's protection. If nothing else, it doesn't hurt to listen and look at the information you have, before making a Determination on a Historical Site than can never be reversed. My belief is Cooperation, Cooperation, Cooperation. Jack E. Briles Sr. Po Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

In a message dated 2/14/02 8:17:56 AM US Eastern Standard Time, md9105@skyenet.net writes: > Hello List, > > I had an idea. > > 1. Some Archealogists are not up to speed on cemetery restoration and stone > repair. > > To the List, If you read my E-mail I know you understand that I was not Degrading nor belittling Archaeologist. I spoke of them as Professionals. And I said they looked at a site and then gave their Professional Opinion without playing favorites. I said they gave their report in a "Damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead " attitude regardless of the outcome of their decision. There is no way they can come out in a Win Win situation. As in anything, there will be someone unhappy. Either the land owners, Preservationist, or Developers. Especially the ones paying if the opinion doesn't go their way. As far as Archaeologists training goes, their job is to preserve articles as they are found. Repairing those Articles is not part of their Educational Training. Lately since Preservation of partially destroyed Tombstones has become a prominent Issue, they now have a new approach pushed on them. Judging as to the possibility of Repairing broken articles of Historical value to us, that in the past was thrown over in a field or woods outside the cemetery, and forgotten. We have for the first time I believe in modern History, started looking at Old partially Destroyed and neglected Cemeteries as a Historical Item, just as Important to us as Ancient Burial Sites. We want to preserve the History and way of life of our Ancestors as much as we do the History and way of life of Native Americans. They, like us came here from another Continent. The only difference being, they came by Land Bridge across the Bering Straights, and we came Later by Ship. We must all approach this awareness in the Newer Burial Sites of our Pioneer Ancestors, and start treating their Burial sites with as much respect and dignity as we afford the early Native Americans. We have past and present History. Both deserve the same respect. I believe the way to start on this New Awareness is to start with the Teaching of the Archeologist. They must understand that Times are changing. Their ways of thinking must change also, just as ours has. They will never have the time to include Repairing into their work. But they must begin to approach these Neglected Cemeteries with the same respect and fervor that they have for Ancient Burial Grounds. Both types of Burial Sites are a part of the History of this Great Country, not just the Ancient sites. We and they must learn to respect ALL of those who passed before us. Everyone, Developers, Politicians, Archaeologist, Preservationist and the Public in General, must adapt to our new way of thinking. We no longer wish to allow the Hallowed ground of our Ancestors to be treated with anything but dignity and respect. I don't want my Ancestors to be treated as Second Class due to their European Ancestry. We must all pull together. By so doing, with our new Awareness we all come out winners. The Archeologist, with their Professional Training is a Wonderful place to start. Maybe during the summer, some could attend a Cemetery Seminar and be able to understand our side of the issue, and see things from our standpoint, and we would be able to understand theirs. How many of us have ever met and shook hands with an Archaeologist, or even seen one. Just my Damn opinion again, Your Opinions are also welcomed: Jack E. Briles Sr. jb502000@aol.com Po Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (8120 282-6585

Hi Jack, I still can't get passed that these are sacred places, not just historic or cultural resources. They are a separate land use that, for most of mankind, hold a special level of regard. We need to keep that in mind. It should not matter the age. When these people were laid to "rest", that's exactly what their families expected they would have - eternal rest. Not "until so and so's shopping center needs to get built" or "the public needs a new road..." Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] "Old Cemetery to far gone" ????? > In a message dated 2/14/02 10:43:59 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > ssilver1951@jps.net writes: > > > > The point here is that most archaeologists truly have no experience in > > things such as this. Yes, they know about human remains, and they can tell > > you its a grave. But most of your lay persons with any common sense can > > tell you that. > > Sue, > I agree with you that all Archeologist are not top of the line, but > in my 40 odd years as a Masonry Contractor I found this to be true in every > Profession. As in my business, there were a lot of "Bad Apples" that I met. I > also believe that when it comes to a Neglected, Destroyed or "Abandoned" > cemetery such as we have in the Terrain here in the Hills of Southern > Indiana, that my years of Volunteer work, and observation and studying of > Burial Sites, I probably after 2 or 3 hours of study, can determine the size > and approximate number of Burials as well as anyone. As I said earlier, I > don't believe archaeologists are trained in working on 150 to 200 year old > cemeteries. I am beginning to see where they, if nothing else should go out > on a Saturday and begin to study "old Modern" cemeteries. > A lot can be learned just by observation. As in my Profession, in > my 40 odd years I have became a Paid Professional in my Work, I have had > people ask me how I got my Knowledge, I explained from books and a LOT of > practical experience. I never considered that I knew all there was to know. I > continually worked on improvement. I never, never thought "I knew it all." > Also, having lived in California 10 years, I am aware of some of what you are > talking about. Most reports that were turned in to Cal-Trans were what they > wanted. And if you wanted to work for them, or get a Contract from them, then > you had better conform to what they expected. > Here or in California, I feel sorry for some Archeologist, they > are caught between the proverbial 'Rock and a hard place" They went to > college, and they now have to make a Living. If they say the wrong thing at > the wrong time their Living is in Jeopardy. The biggest problem I see is that > I don't believe that their education covers some of the things they encounter > in these older Destroyed cemeteries. They should try working closer with > people like you that have no vested interest in the Cemetery, other than it's > protection. If nothing else, it doesn't hurt to listen and look at the > information you have, before making a Determination on a Historical Site than > can never be reversed. My belief is Cooperation, Cooperation, Cooperation. > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Po Box 444 > New Albany, In. 47151-0444 > (812) 282-6585 > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net. > >

Hello List, I had an idea. 1. Some Archealogists are not up to speed on cemetery restoration and stone repair. 2. 99.9% are professionals and would like to broaden their education. 3. There are people on this list that have extensive knowledge on restoration and repairs. 4. Find an a way to disseminate the info to the Archealogists through one of their Associations or email groups. Give them as much info as possible. Websites,email,restoration guidelines,etc. I know its simplistic, but wouldnt it be better to partner together? Share the knowlege. I remain your obedient servant, Mark Davis 4 Lakeview Ct. Hartford City,Indiana 47348 md9105@skyenet.net With malice toward none, with charity for all,with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right,let us strive on to finish the work we are in... A. Lincoln March 4,1865 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/02

I appreciate Mr. Hapke's comments regarding some of our statements. I think it is important to realize, however, that in some states cemeteries are a legal land use, separate from and above being any kind of historic or cultural feature, artifact, or site. It should not be the archaeologists who are called in as to matters of old cemeteries located within project zones, but the attorneys, who should, by necessity, be reviewing the legal title issues according to law, and then determining if the developers even have a right to the place at all. As for the "prostitutes" in California, I stand by what I wrote. In Folsom, where a private cemetery operator graded ground in preperation for building multiple mausoleums on the fence line with an old Chinese Cemetery, the city made them hire an archaeologist to go to the site after the grading had occurred to determine if there were Chinese graves along the fence line and under the asphalt road laid out by the operator. Instead of returning with a report that stated, "I'm sorry, it's impossible to know if there were graves where the grading has occurred, and I cannot detect graves through asphalt", this person pronounced there were no graves affected by the work performed! We still joke about her x-ray tennis shoes.... Another instance in the same town occurred when Intel Corporation, after learning from the local historical society and pledging it would never develop the hill where what was left of the Prairie City Cemetery was located, sold a portion of the hill to the California Dept. of Transportation for a right of way for a highway interchange ramp. CalTrans received three separate archaeological reports that the Prairie City Cemetery was located on the hill where the right of way existed. They went through all the motions of doing ground penetrating radar (the map cites "ground disturbance-not a grave"at one location), did one test excavation, and proceeded with the project. I met with the CalTrans archaeologist one year before they broke ground and was denied the right to lay out a grid and perform probing in areas where photographic documentation showed graves. I left her with, "I'll be surprised if you find less than 10 graves..." In 1997, when CalTrans began to break ground, I called in the press after finding an excavator parked next to two granite tombstone bases. The television media really picked up on it and the first night they showed one CalTrans archaeologist pointing to the bases saying, "this isn't a cemetery, these are just throw aways from earlier damage done when the first off ramp was built." (Quite an admission after 20 years of denying they had encountered graves the first time around!) After arranging for reburial places before they even located the first grave pit, CalTrans found 12 graves on a hill known to be a cemetery and issued a press release seven days later proclaiming they had "discovered" a cemetery! As they were excavating the graves and documenting them, we stopped by the cemetery to see how they were doing. The CalTrans archaeologist stood there puzzled (the same one I'd worked with for three years trying to convince her the cemetery was there), and asked why we thought the graves were all laid out in a similar but slightly different angle. We had to tell her, "Because they were buried facing east, which is the custom of nearly all cultures, and they didn't use a compass when digging the grave. They went by where the sun was in the sky and that varies depending on what season of the year it is." (This is really basic, common sense stuff.) The point here is that most archaeologists truly have no experience in things such as this. Yes, they know about human remains, and they can tell you its a grave. But most of your lay persons with any common sense can tell you that. CalTrans had those remains "for study" for nearly a year and all we found out were they were either an adult or child! The grave size told us that! We found the idea of studying human remains from a period of HISTORY where newspaper accounts document the cause of death, was absolutely ridiculous and lacking in respect. "Their teeth will tell us a lot about their diet...." This is nonsense; it's not like there weren't thousands of other people around writing home about the type of foods and other amenities being experienced in gold rush California. By the way, here comes the prostitution end of this tale....In 1961 a California appellate court ruled that a highway is no better public purpose than a cemetery and ruled that CalTrans and the Federal Highway Administration could not use land dedicated to cemetery purposes. CalTrans deliberately ignored the reports noting the existence of the cemetery to avoid being stopped by a court of law. The archaeologists working for CalTrans had slipped $25,000 in the budget to relocate the cemetery! I have worked with good archeaologists and I have worked with bad archaeologists. The last one I worked with was good - at Native American sites - but had no concept of historic cemeteries or how they functioned. One of his associates sent me her report of an "isolated grave" in another location she'd worked on and asked us to look at that location and tell her if we thought it might be a full cemetery. (It was out in the boonies and badly overgrown.) We did and we detected no fewer than ten other possible grave site within 30 feet of the marked grave. She later told me she had learned a lot working with us at the cemetery we were reviewing to determine the size and extent for a shopping center. But she is a rarity. If I sound jaded, so be it. We have had over 40 cemeteries bulldozed or obliterated in some way in just the past 20 years in this county that should never have been touched without a court order. We have sheriff's deputies telling neighboring residents they have no jurisdiction to stop this activity even though it is a crime to obliterate or desecrate a grave. And we have a board of supervisors who doesn't want to accept the legally mandated public title to the vast majority of the remaining cemeteries that was established by a law enacted in 1872. Those of us out in the field who have volunteered to be the protectors of other people's ancestors (no, Mr. Hapke, we're not all in this because we have affected ancestors), perform a valuable public service and we don't get paid a dime. What we get paid with is ridicule, slander and ignorance of the law by all the "responsible" parties involved in these affairs. But that doesn't stop us because we know what we are doing is the right thing to do. The civilized thing to do. We're living in historic times. In a hundred or more years, the work that we are doing will be known to later historians because we are documenting these matters for the future. So when a cemetery or burial ground cannot be located, the historians will have a road map of what has happened. It is the least we can do and sadly, it is also most often the best we can do. Sue Silver El Dorado County Pioneer Cemeteries Commission a California Non-Profit Public Benefit Corporation Member, California Historic Cemetery Alliance ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Hapke" <rhapke@adsnet.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] "Old Cemetery to far gone" ????? > I wish to thank Mr. Briles and Mr. Frevert for their comments concerning the > professionalism of archaeologists, and feel very badly that Ms. Silver has > had what seems some extremely unfortunate circumstances in California. > > Ms Silver refers to archaeologists as 'prostitutes' who 'prostitute their > integrity just to keep being employed'. Well sorry to contradict you Sue, > but for myself and many other archaeologists out there...we have all left a > job (or so) or been asked to leave because we tried to do the moral and > 'right thing'. > > Most of 'John Q. Public' rant and rave when their family's past is > threatened; however it is more unfortunate that if they find they can turn a > buck on their ancestors, many will do just that. SO which is worse, the > archaeologist who cannot save a site or a cemetery because they were > contacted after the fact...or the family member who sells Aunt Tillie's one > of a kind antique broach from Ireland because they want a DVD player? > > Ms. Silver, I feel bad that the experiences you have mentioned thus far have > all appeared to have been negative concerning archaeologists. But anyone out > there please feel free to put yourself in school and get the degree as it is > never too late to find out just how much 'fun' it is being a professional > 'prostitute'. It may be a little different than you believe. > > > Russ Hapke - Archaeologist > LaPorte County, IN >

I don't want to contribute to the discussion on archaeologists as they have much more education than do I and I can appreciate what they do. I think this whole uncomfortable feeling stems from a few years ago when the remains of a few of our state's pioneers were removed from the cemetery and taken back to a lab for study (we knew who they were, but they took them anyway) Then they were crated up and set on a shelf in some state agency until enought pressure was put on the DNR to reinter them properly. This happened more than once, and was a heated topic of discussion on this very list at the time. After going through a situation such as this, it is no wonder several on this list feel the way they do. Obviously, the combination of a few stray professionals combined with the governmental mentality of their agency made for a poor practice. I'm not defending anyone here, just hoping to bring up to speed those who may not have been involved on this list when that issue was being discussed so you may understand the animosity, but let's not condemn everyone for the actions of a few either. -Kyle

Thank you Russ, for the guidelines for mapping a cemetery. This would have been great to have when we were starting out, and some of it can still be applied to our maps. Ruth ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Hapke" <rhapke@adsnet.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 4:32 AM Subject: [INPCRP] On the subject of sharing knowledge > Hi all, > > In my last E-mail, I had unfortunately been a little too incensed by a comment made against a profession which I have taken very seriously and have tried to maintain high standards for almost a decade now. I apologize to the board if my words were too harsh, but as an archaeologist, I know all too well the rules of the blame game and how archaeologists can be perceived both in good and bad lights. I know all too well the threats against one's self and one's family if you stand up for what's right. > > Ms. Silver, I truly do feel bad that your experiences with archaeologists have been poor and can only say that we are not all scavengers and grave robbers who look the other way when money calls. Heck, if it was a matter of money...trust me, there would be no archaeologists, as you do not go into the field of archaeology because of its great pay and benefits (if you know of a job with these, let me know and I'll spread the word, 'cause I haven't seen one yet). > > ANd now, as I would hope we would all continue to do, I would like to share some information that perhaps not everyone out there is aware: basic mapping tips for a cemetery. > > Most established cemeteries within city boundaries are well mapped, so I would like to address those smaller cemeteries and family plots that are located almost every day. Now, some of these tips may seem a bit outlandish and totally obvious; but you would be amazed how many of them are forgotten... > > Some basic tips for mapping > 1. Find North, and make sure you indicate it on your map. This will make it easier for others to use your work in later years, especially if you have a cemetery without headstones or markers that is becoming overgrown or deteriorating. > > 2. When mapping out the boundaries of your cemetery, use benchmarks and if possible indicate distances to them from the corners or boundaries of your plot boundaries. Try not to use plants, rock piles or that beautiful old oak that seems to make the perfect reference point. Plants (like day lillies or wildflowers) tend to spread or die out. Rock piles can be moved (especially if adjacent to ag fields). And that old oak may be cut down or removed if someone wants to sell the wood. > > 3. Select a benchmark or marks that are established, or will take basically a construction crew with a backhoe to move. An easy reference point that you can get, if possible, is a utility line...especially buried cable. Call your utility company and ask for any lines in the area to be marked for a possible project (the utility company doesn't have to know what the project is). The service is free and you will have an exact distance from an existing line to your boundaries. What is also nice about this is that you can mark the utility lines on your map and will have an exact reference point to look at if you ever have to deal with some of the problems that the board has noted several times. If the lines are marked by the utility company and then you measure and mark them on your map (for a dual purpose) then there will be much less 'confusion' where boundaries are if someone wishes to do some construction. Why? because a licensed and recognized utlity company that has marke! > d their lines has given you their exact measurement of where their lines are, and that cannot be disputed; plus you will have a lot less arguments with planners who might say "well...we weren't too sure where the lines were, so we went ahead with the project and took out part of the cemetery anyway..." because you have the information in front of you on your map. > > 4. Make sure you date your map...both on the original date(s) and any updates. I am sure you can guess why this would be important from the previous, as well as other reasons. > > 5. If you are mapping a cemetery that is close to a curve in the road, do not use the curve, or even the road as your primary benchmark. If there is a utility junction of some kind, I would suggest using that more than a road. Roads can change over time, and they are often widened, so your distance from the road to the outer edge of the cemetery can be skewed over time as well. Also, different people create different maps and not everyone can create the exact curve and distances of a winding road. One example of this was from three different maps I had to use for a project in which we were to report if a cemetery was to be affected in a road widening down south. There was a curved road on each, but the distances were different for each as well; and overall, the diffrence between the three maps was approximately 30 feet. If I had used that map, an entire row of graves would have been affected. Luckily, one map created by a retired draftsman, had put on his map the location o! > f a utility station and gave measurements on the map that coincided exactly with his scale. We were able to use that information and obtain exact boundaries and go on with the project to assess what should be done. (By the way, we suggested a big ol' move in the project route and they were not happy, until we brought to their attention that several ancestors of the county commissioners of the area were buried in the cemetery - it was a lucky break). > > 5A. If you absolutely HAVE to use a road, take a measurement from the center of the road and not the side. More often than not, roads are widened equal distances on both sides, so the center is the most reliable source. Also, surveyors use the centers and often you can find one of their benchmarks (a metal stake pounded all the way down with just the top showing). > > 6. Make sure that you put a scale on your map. Don't cheat. There are no 'ishes' and 'somethings' or 'abouts' in mapping. > > 7. ONce you have a scale, stick with it. If you have to add extra pieces of paper then do that. You can always shrink the map at Kinko's later on. In order to map out a site once, and to do it justice, my crew and I created sections of a map and later combined them into what became a 10'x10' map. It may have ended up huge, but I'll be darned if we didn't have an exact idea of what was going on everywhere at the site. > > 8. Don't be afraid to make a big map. You have twenty plots, and your scale is 1'=1"...so be it. Add some paper if you need to. You might even wish to write the names and epitaphs of the stones on there, if room allows. You might also maybe just number the plots as you map them and then write down in a journal a corresponding number with any and all information you can about each stone. > > 9. Take notes and measurements on the surrounding terrain. Any ag fields? Woods? Pipelines? Has the terrain been altered in the last decade? Last 50 years? Mark any streams, wetlands or potential areas in which erosion could take place for future reference. > > 10. Make a key and legend. Make sure that distance, Northing, scale, and any symbols used are in a legend. IF you are marking veteran graves, make sure that you mark what those symbols mean on your map for future reference. Just because you know that a "*A" means Veteran of the Revolutionary War, doesn't mean that others will know what you mean. Make sure that any symbols are easily referenced on the map you make. > > 11. If you take pictures, write down the information in your legend of where these pictures can be found. Because you have dated the map, pictures will settle a lot of arguments later on if you know exactly when they were taken. > > 12. Most of all, take your time and enjoy your mapping. Creating a map should not be a chore. If it is, come back when you are in the mood. You will catch alot more information. > > Hope these tips help someone. I know that alot of this seems like common sense, but it does make a difference later on if ever facing a problem in 'community planning'. I have seen great maps that have been discarded because they neglected to fill in all the information, and therefore were thought 'unreliable' (and yes, it was horrible trick that was used...makes me sick remembering it). Maps are just as important to have correct as crossing your T's or the wording in a legal document. They can be just as powerful or just a poor. > > Russ Hapke > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England > and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > >

Hey there, Just been updating myself more on the Crossman issue. Jack/Christine - you said that you've been to see the cemetery, or were going to try and see it? Were the breaks weathered at all, or were the breaks fresh? Just how bad were they? Scrape marks? What kind of time frame would you place on when the breaks occurred? Probably the best person to ask for reference on this would be John in Fayette County... I just got a look at Christine's pictures and now have a slew of questions: Kind of confused of an area that was supposed to be left alone, but markers turned up buried. Was it an ag plowing? How far from the plots were the stones? I don't remember reading anything about the land being farmed in the article, but was called farmland...Were they with any other stones (ie other river rock and field stones that a farmer would remove for plowing) or were they alone (which would lean towards creating intent)? How deep were the markers buried? Were the soils mottled, disturbed around the stones and how 'fresh' was the mottling? Did the soil get a chance to start forming again before the commencement of construction? Some soil establishment, even within an inch would indicate the stones were down for awhile, while mottling all the way to the surface would indicate much more recent removal or disturbance. HOw much was stripped off by machinery? >From the pictures, I did not see ANY other rock in the nearby vacinity of the stone markers, which to me means that accidental plowing by ag farmers would not be supported, unless Columbus, IN is devoid of stones somehow. If it were done by farming, the stones would be in a pile, not spread out and buried, 'cause as we all would know, no farmer in his right mind wants to tear up their equipment. The other odd thing is their arrangement... although I cannot be for certain, but from the pictures, the stones (especially stone number three) appear to have cracked radially, as if by pressure. John Walters, that would be another question for you, since you have probably seen the most types of breaks in stones. Questions for all - IN the 'vague description' of the cemeteries location, there is a discrepancy of location in the plots, whether they were near the edge or center of the property. Did the amount of land increase in the family after the initial interment? Did Mr. Williams own adjacent land, and is that being confused into the original description? What was the original 'benchmark' used to locate the cemetery? How do those descriptions relate to that document? In the argument over land taxes...well, even in the short time that the list has been up, this has been an issue. SOme folks might not have known about the laws concerning taxes and cemeteries or just went along with the program thinking there were no breaks or assistance in that plot of land. I would think that more recent situations concerning tax issues and cemeteries would be able to disrupt that argument. Guess I am looking for the original basic facts here. Sounds like Williams might have had adjacent lands to the original Llewellyn plot and it has become intertwined with the current family land/plot layout. I can't believe that someone would not know the end of their property from the middle of their property...come on! Land boundaries changed somewhere along the line it seems, and that little tidbit is missing something and might be being overlooked somehow. Don't know if these question have been asked or not, most likely, just wanting to make sure. Personally, I would agree with Christine, it would be great if my grand-kids could come visit me and enjoy their surroundings. I would like to see them (Crossman) to encompass the adjacent plot of land meant for a house and use it for a small park, with the cemetery on the side. Parks help generate revenue for communities, and revenue helps keep up cemeteries, and respect keeps 'em all goin'. Russ Hapke LP County

>From: Steve Frevert <rfrevert@megsinet.net> >Reply-To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [INPCRP] archaeologists >Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2002 17:21:18 -0600 > >At the risk of being inflammatory, I have to say that the slagging of >professional archaeologists on this list is not going to do anything to >further the cause of pioneer cemetery preservation. Their area of >expertise probably does not include stone restoration, and it's wrong for >us to expect that. I'm sure there are some bad archaeologists, but they >are the ones who develop a poor reputation with their peers. No person in >any profession wants this. > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living? > Three cheers for the "slagger"! In my opinion, all professionals need a little slagging from time to time. I don't really know what slagging is exactly, but I'm sure it help keeps them on the up and up. I can remember getting a slapping once. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

You will have to talk to the Newspaper.Jack

At the risk of being inflammatory, I have to say that the slagging of professional archaeologists on this list is not going to do anything to further the cause of pioneer cemetery preservation. Their area of expertise probably does not include stone restoration, and it's wrong for us to expect that. I'm sure there are some bad archaeologists, but they are the ones who develop a poor reputation with their peers. No person in any profession wants this.

Caroline, That sounds like lichen. There are a couple of recommended ways to clean it off. Lichens and algae can be removed by first thoroughly soaking the stone and then using a wooden scraper to gently remove the biological growth. This process may need to be repeated several times to remove the material, and remember to be gentle with the scraper so as to not damage the stone. Another way is with poltice. It is made of Kaolin/porcelain clay (dry), and Glycerine. Mix about half and half with water, to the consistency of peanut butter. Follow this link for more complete cleaning instructions using the poltice: http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/repairtoolbox.html Or from the main page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/ click on "Excellent Cemetery Information Resources", and go to "Step by Step Restoration Guidelines" and "Restoration Toolbox Suggestions". Ernie At 01:47 PM 02/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Along the same lines, most of my older tombstones here in NE Indiana have a >greenish-brown fungus growing on them. Anybody know how to get rid of that? > >Caroline > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <Jb502000@aol.com> >To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:43 PM >Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Clean Queen on cleaning tombstones > > > > In a message dated 2/12/02 11:06:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > > yetzkejm@qtm.net writes: > > > > > > > Someone wrote in asking how to keep her husband's black marble headstone > > > clean. > > > > > > > Very few Tombstones are Black Marble. Most are Granite. This >Method > > will not destroy the "Newer" Marble or Granite. But Please, DO NOT USE >THIS > > ON OLD WHITE MARBLE OR LIMESTONE. It's Acidic. We have enough Acid rain >now > > to destroy the older softer ones. The "Newer ones CAN be cleaned. But even > > those that have an area on them that is rough (Chisled not Polished) is > > beginning to show signs of very slight aborption of water carrying dirt >over > > the last 25-30 years.. Just use good judgement with whatever you use. What > > are her credentials as to having carried out tests, or been to a class on > > Stone Cleaning. Or is that her Job. Time will tell if she is right. What > > works in or around the home does not necessairly work in a cemetery. Be > > cautious, Rinse good with water after cleaning. Good Luck. Maybe >someone > > else on the List has some Ideas, > > > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > > jb502000@aol.com > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you >have." > > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > > > > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families >are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is >undisguised. This is a cemetery. > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, >historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved >in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - >not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family >memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of >yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery >exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA

Along the same lines, most of my older tombstones here in NE Indiana have a greenish-brown fungus growing on them. Anybody know how to get rid of that? Caroline ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Clean Queen on cleaning tombstones > In a message dated 2/12/02 11:06:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > yetzkejm@qtm.net writes: > > > > Someone wrote in asking how to keep her husband's black marble headstone > > clean. > > > > Very few Tombstones are Black Marble. Most are Granite. This Method > will not destroy the "Newer" Marble or Granite. But Please, DO NOT USE THIS > ON OLD WHITE MARBLE OR LIMESTONE. It's Acidic. We have enough Acid rain now > to destroy the older softer ones. The "Newer ones CAN be cleaned. But even > those that have an area on them that is rough (Chisled not Polished) is > beginning to show signs of very slight aborption of water carrying dirt over > the last 25-30 years.. Just use good judgement with whatever you use. What > are her credentials as to having carried out tests, or been to a class on > Stone Cleaning. Or is that her Job. Time will tell if she is right. What > works in or around the home does not necessairly work in a cemetery. Be > cautious, Rinse good with water after cleaning. Good Luck. Maybe someone > else on the List has some Ideas, > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > jb502000@aol.com > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > >

As promised, here are some points of contact through the web to start with for the group. Each one spiders off to a multitude of departments and sites and hopefully all will find folks near you. http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Anthropology/archsite.html (Journals, groups, and contact clicks) http://www.shovelbums.org/ (official website for finding a job in archaeology. They post all the time on events and jobs taking place and I don't think they would be opposed to having seminars posted through the website. I believe the mailing list is somewhere in the range of 5,000-7,000 archaeologists worldwide) http://www.swanet.org/jobs.html (job listings and lists of contact information in the SouthWest) Russ H LPC, IN

Hey Mark, Glad to see I was along the same lines of thought as you. I will be looking up groups on the net and hopefully I can get a full listing to the group this week. I know that ArchNet and the SAA websites are two of the best to find e-mail address and mailing addresses. As far as disseminating the information, unfortunately because of the rift between amateur and professional, an initial contact mailing will at first need to be followed up with a phone call. You would be surprised to see how many more individuals you will find to come to a seminar if you follow up 14-10 days before an event with phone calls. The good thing is, once an archaeologist has a contact in the public, or a group to work with or learn alongside, they have faces to go with the events and will become more involved, and you won't have to go through as much hassle later on. Just a follow up on the suggestion Russ Hapke LP County, IN ----- Original Message ----- From: "mark davis" <md9105@skyenet.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 5:16 AM Subject: [INPCRP] > Hello List, > > I had an idea. > > 1. Some Archealogists are not up to speed on cemetery restoration and stone repair. > > 2. 99.9% are professionals and would like to broaden their education. > > 3. There are people on this list that have extensive knowledge on restoration and repairs. > > 4. Find an a way to disseminate the info to the Archealogists through one of their Associations or > email groups. Give them as much info as possible. Websites,email,restoration guidelines,etc. > > I know its simplistic, but wouldnt it be better to partner together? Share the knowlege. > > I remain your obedient servant, > > > Mark Davis > 4 Lakeview Ct. > Hartford City,Indiana 47348 > md9105@skyenet.net > > > With malice toward none, with charity for all,with > firmness in the right as God gives us to see the > right,let us strive on to finish the work we are in... > > A. Lincoln March 4,1865 > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/02 > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net. > >

In a message dated 2/13/02 7:05:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time, cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > The mention in the newspaper about him > saying they were not fixable must have come through the developer, as I had > never heard that before reading it there myself. I have emailed him and > inquired about seeing the stones, as I haven't seen the 2 best ones but I > acknowledged the awkward position he might feel he is in at this moment > since everything has been put on hold for the time being. Cris, An Archeoligists job is to study and come up with a fair and honest Determination of the site he is examining.There is no such thing as him being in an "awkward position". His job is to examine the site and give his professional opinion, no matter which side he comes out on. His opinion must be Professional. It's the old "Damn the Torpedos, full speed ahead." If his determanation comes out in your favor or Crossmans it doesn't matter. He is bound to be fair and Impartial. His very reputation for the future for himself and his Department depends on it. Personal feelings aside. He honestly may not know about the possibility of repairing these stones, I'm sure if he said that, then in his opinion they, from what he knows, or was taught are considered beyond repair. 99% of the time we know different. Good Luck, I hope your efforts pay off. As John said in effect "show me a stone and I'll repair it." I will be in Colombus tommorow (Thursday) is it possible to view the site, without any kind of problem. I'm not nosey, I would like to see the site. Jack Briles Sr.

Hey all and especially Sue, All I can say is...woah!!! You have seen some of the nastiest sides in the profession and my hat is off to you for what you have experienced. As I mentioned in a follow up note on basic mapping skills to keep in mind when mapping smaller out of the way cemeteries, I did have an instance where I watched a fellow archaeologist use the excuse of poor information (a map had one symbol missing - oiy vey) to discard information on the side of money...and you are right, it is very heart wrenching to see and to stand up against (lost that job due to my over active bull-headedness - go fig.). I guess I could offer hope of some sort that there are more and more archaeologists out there who realize the importance of working with the general public and that we are no longer in an ivory tower of academia. The discipline is changing and the study of diseased teeth is lessening of importance to many archaeologists. I have been fortunate in working with numerous archaeologists who would rather give a wide birth to any grave rather than mitigate it just to keep the remains in a box on a shelf for years in a lab somewhere. Ideas are changing but it does take time. So..all...where do we go from here? Perhaps aside from awareness in the public eye, we should also focus on educational institutions...hmmm? As I mentioned before, when I had learned of stone restoration with John last year, I sent out the information to many archy 'buds' and several of them took up the information and pursued more along those lines. If Sue and anyone else does not mind, I would like to send on our letters to several institutions and start pushing for more historical cemetery preservation classes in the history and anthropology departments. I would like to write up a general letter to academic departments that urged them consider adding this factor to the discipline. The letter would probably be more well received if it was targeted at cross disciplinary measures (economics, sociology, anthropology, business). Perhaps if I drafted something up this week, I could send it to the board and everyone could give me some input?... Another suggestion I would have for the board is that now that the cemetery preservation groups are becoming much more organized and holding seminars on cemetery restoration and awareness, make sure that CRM firms, educational institutions, museums, and other professional and amateur archaeology groups receive the invitation as well in your areas. I will look up some contact information for everyone as far as lists and mailing (and hopefully E-mails as well). Make sure we follow up invitations by mail or E-mail with phone calls and stress the importance of the learning opportunity and the positive PR involved. And hopefully Sue, I can give you some reassurance that there are some good 'prostitutes' (sorry, got the giggles and had to put that one in...nice slam) in your area. Claude Warren might be of some service to you in the southern California area. He is primarily a prehistorian, but has been around for ever and is retired and a pretty big name over there. I believe he is residing in Bakersfield near the Nevada border and you might be able to contact him through UNLV and E-mail. Also from UNLV is Margaret Lineus, a real stickler for morality and also retired just this year. She might be able to offer you some support as well and might want to really be involved in a movement such as this. As far as California, you might want to contact Joan Davis at UC Riverside. I have only met her a couple of times, but she is really approachable and easy going. She might be able to help you out as well. Hope this helps. Russ Hapke LaPorte County, IN >

Jack, You give these professional archaeologists too much credit for their responsibilities. If a developer hires an archaeologist in California, that archaeologists knows if he/she comes up with something significant and reports it, they'll never work again. For if they find something, it's going to cost the developer, whether in time or money, to mitigate it. We call these folks "ho-ho"'s or prostitutes. They prostitute their integrity just to keep being employed. That's why it's so important for the "amateur" archaeologist or historian to be a professional and polished as they can be. They may be able to try to undermine your information based on your lack of "credentials", but they can never undermine well researched and documented facts. Sue Silver CA ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] "Old Cemetery to far gone" ????? > In a message dated 2/13/02 7:05:47 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > cherokee@shelbynet.net writes: > > > > The mention in the newspaper about him > > saying they were not fixable must have come through the developer, as I had > > never heard that before reading it there myself. I have emailed him and > > inquired about seeing the stones, as I haven't seen the 2 best ones but I > > acknowledged the awkward position he might feel he is in at this moment > > since everything has been put on hold for the time being. > > Cris, > An Archeoligists job is to study and come up with a fair and > honest Determination of the site he is examining.There is no such thing as > him being in an "awkward position". His job is to examine the site and give > his professional opinion, no matter which side he comes out on. His opinion > must be Professional. It's the old "Damn the Torpedos, full speed ahead." If > his determanation comes out in your favor or Crossmans it doesn't matter. He > is bound to be fair and Impartial. His very reputation for the future for > himself and his Department depends on it. Personal feelings aside. > He honestly may not know about the possibility of repairing these > stones, I'm sure if he said that, then in his opinion they, from what he > knows, or was taught are considered beyond repair. 99% of the time we know > different. Good Luck, I hope your efforts pay off. As John said in effect > "show me a stone and I'll repair it." I will be in Colombus tommorow > (Thursday) is it possible to view the site, without any kind of problem. I'm > not nosey, I would like to see the site. > > Jack Briles Sr. > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > >