Ernie, I'm not sure this excellent link addresses the issue, which is lot ownership. That's not exactly what we're up against. What we need to know is if the persons who expect to be buried in their ancestor's lots, described by this section as "owners of burial rights," actually "own" the lots. The bylaws are silent about transfer of ownership. Of course. Thanks, Sharon Mills At 05:05 PM 3/7/02 -0600, you wrote: >Sharon, > >There is a link from the INPCRP main page under "Indiana Cemetery Laws" >that takes you here: > >http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ > >I think chapter 42 may answer your question, found here: > >http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ch42.html > >This is not clear cut, however. IC 23-14 chapter 36 section 2 says >ownership cannot be transferred or assigned without the consent of the >cemetery owner. You also need to read chapters 39, 40, and 41 to see if >those laws dealing with multi-space lots and family burial lots >apply. My advice would be to find an attorney or paralegal familiar with >cemetery laws. You will need specific information, such as who the >original lot owner was, was this a family lot, was the lot/lots mentioned >in a will or other document, and any rules the cemetery association may >have on transfer of ownership. > >Ernie > >

Sharon, The answer is there, just a little complicated to find. Several questions need to be answered: Did the owner transfer rights or ownership before he/she died? Did the owner transfer rights or ownership in a will or other document after he/she died? When the estate was settled was there any determination on lot rights/ownership? If none of the above apply, then burial rights pass as part of the estate. In the case of more than one heir to the estate, then section 5 of chapter 42 applies: Sec. 5. (a) If there are several owners of burial rights in a burial plot, the owners may: (1) designate in writing one (1) or more persons to represent them; and (2) file the written designation with the owner of the cemetery in which the plot is located. (b) In the absence of: (1) the filing of a written designation of one (1) or more representatives under subsection (a); or (2) a written objection to the interment, entombment, or inurnment; a cemetery is not liable to any owner of burial rights in a burial plot for interring, entombing, or inurning, or permitting an interment, entombment, or inurnment in the burial plot upon the request or direction of a registered co-owner of the burial rights. In other words, if all the heirs do not agree (in writing) then the cemetery is not liable, and can deny any of them the right to be buried there. An heir can also file an objection in writing to deny any other heir burial rights. I still recommend you have an attorney or paralegal sort this out. Ernie At 07:06 PM 03/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Ernie, > >I'm not sure this excellent link addresses the issue, which is lot >ownership. That's not exactly what we're up against. What we need to >know is if the persons who expect to be buried in their ancestor's lots, >described by this section as "owners of burial rights," actually "own" the >lots. > >The bylaws are silent about transfer of ownership. Of course. > >Thanks, > >Sharon Mills > > > > > > >At 05:05 PM 3/7/02 -0600, you wrote: >>Sharon, >> >>There is a link from the INPCRP main page under "Indiana Cemetery Laws" >>that takes you here: >> >>http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ >> >>I think chapter 42 may answer your question, found here: >> >>http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ch42.html >> >>This is not clear cut, however. IC 23-14 chapter 36 section 2 says >>ownership cannot be transferred or assigned without the consent of the >>cemetery owner. You also need to read chapters 39, 40, and 41 to see if >>those laws dealing with multi-space lots and family burial lots >>apply. My advice would be to find an attorney or paralegal familiar >>with cemetery laws. You will need specific information, such as who the >>original lot owner was, was this a family lot, was the lot/lots mentioned >>in a will or other document, and any rules the cemetery association may >>have on transfer of ownership. >> >>Ernie >> > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. >

Sharon, There is a link from the INPCRP main page under "Indiana Cemetery Laws" that takes you here: http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ I think chapter 42 may answer your question, found here: http://www.ai.org/legislative/ic/code/title23/ar14/ch42.html This is not clear cut, however. IC 23-14 chapter 36 section 2 says ownership cannot be transferred or assigned without the consent of the cemetery owner. You also need to read chapters 39, 40, and 41 to see if those laws dealing with multi-space lots and family burial lots apply. My advice would be to find an attorney or paralegal familiar with cemetery laws. You will need specific information, such as who the original lot owner was, was this a family lot, was the lot/lots mentioned in a will or other document, and any rules the cemetery association may have on transfer of ownership. Ernie At 07:12 AM 03/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: >I've tried searching the Archives for this subject, which I think has been >discussed before. Maybe I"m not using the right words, but I can't get a >reference. > >My question pertains to lot ownership. A person who purchases a lot is >obviously an owner of the lot. If that person dies leaving vacancies for >burial of relatives, do the relatives who plan to be buried there become >owners of their plots? Does it require mention in a will? > >Continuing along the possibilities, if a lot owner dies leaving one >survivor, does that survivor become the owner of the lot along with other >inherited property? Does it need to be mentioned in a will, even though >this would be a very simple probate? What if there are two or more survivors? > >Even further afield, does one of a number of survivors of a lot owner have >any claim to lot ownership? Cemeteries often look to survivors for >guidance about removal of shrubs and flowers from grave sites. Does this >suggest some kind of ownership? > >I ask because the original By-Laws of a specific cemetery association >restrict its membership to lot owners. The cemetery is nearly full, and >no meetings have been held for more than 20 years. I know the By-Laws can >be changed, but first there must be at least seven people with legitimate >membership to elect a board of directors to take any action. > >Sharon Mills > > > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Please do not send queries through this list. >

Dear Group, Our local genealogy society is hosting Mr. Rich Green for a program on Delineating Pioneer Cemeteries. He will be explaining his equipment use and how it all works with cemeteries and finding their boundaries. http://www.har-indy.com/ The meeting will be at the Public Library on Wednesday March 13 at 7 PM. Open to anyone who wants to learn more about this area. 627 South Street, Lafayette, IN 47901. Please copy and paste the whole link in your browser for the location of the Public Library. http://maps.yahoo.com/py/maps.py?BFCat=&Pyt=Tmap&newFL=Use+Address+Below&add r=627+South+Street&csz=Lafayette%2C+IN++47901&Country=us&Get%A0Map=Get+Map L. A. Clugh~Tippecanoe County, IN.

In a message dated 3/7/02 7:50:02 AM US Eastern Standard Time, clugh_la@email.msn.com writes: > .- I want to know more about the SIGN they or you are going to use? > > 2.-What are you using to mark the stones you are moving? > Marking the ground with paint sounds great if your working in a fairly > soon. > But I don't know what to use on the stones pieces that are moved. > I guess a gold old sketch would work if your not talking many pieces. > > LA > > LA, The sign is a standard DNR sign that was on the List. It was from a Prairie Preservation site up North Some where. It's maybe 12-14 X 20 inches. As far as marking the stone, I am not going to mark it. I am going to Photograph it, record the names and dates, Then measure to the nearest Fixed stone, and then lean the pieces (There are no Bases Visible on 3-4) up against that so the mower doesn't run over it and do more damage. If one is Broken and has a base, I will lean the Piece against it out of the way. If there is no Fixed stone close, I will record everything on the stone Move it to the closest stone I can, and then Record which stone it is placed at. w Before I walk off with the stone, I move it about 6 inches over and place the Stake where the stone was located. I paint the top of a 2 x 2, 7 inches long with Orange Day Glo Paint (Florescent), take a heavy hammer and drive it down to about one to one and a half inches above the ground (or Flush) After the mowing I retrieve the Stone, remove the Painted stake and lay the stone exactly where it was. Write down everything you do. Keep all of the measurements and Information, how long ? That is up to you. Common sense will guide you thru this. I hope I answered your Questions.! Jack E. Biles Sr. Po Box 444 New Albany, Floyd Co. IN. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

Jack, while it may not be everything that you had hoped for, it sounds as if it's at least a step in the right direction. One question, would this agreement set a precident that could be applied to other cemeteries in the same or simmilar situtation, or this only for the one cemetery? I reseived a report on a cemetery in the last week somewhere farther out in the midwest, might have been North Dakota, where the DNR burned off a cemetery just like in your case. Several of the headstones had moisture in them at the time and according to what I was told they exploded. Bill William Spurlock Saving Graves http://www.savinggraves.com -----Original Message----- From: Jb502000@aol.com [mailto:Jb502000@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 1:27 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] St Johns Lutheran Cemetery (Compromize) In a message dated 3/7/02 6:58:46 AM US Eastern Standard Time, KidClerk@aol.com writes: > You > mentioned DNR and Nature Conservancy....are you dealing with both or just > one? Kyle, I don't know which one I am dealing with. They Came in a DNR Pickup. The Driver is with the Nature Preserve, which I understand is a Division within the Department of Natural Resources. The other fellow is with the Nature Conservancy. The Gentleman from Nature Preserve did the Talking. The sign they are going to put up is one of those small white ones, and they are taking down the ugly 3 ft by 7 ft. wooden sign directly in front of the cemetery at the road. The White sign is a standard DNR sign. one was put out on the list last fall I believe. I took a picture along to show them what was more appropriate. On the bottom of the sign it says, " Division of Nature Preserve, Indiana Department Of Natural Resources ( DNR ) As far as I am concerned I am dealing with the DNR. I have their names, and one is with Nature Preserve, The one in Charge, The other is with the Nature Conservancy. I have to assume I was dealing with a Division of the DNR. There will be a small change in the sign mentioning the Lutheran Cemetery, 1847, and "Barrens" A local Lutheran wanted the name Lutheran removed from the wooden Sign, which they did. I told him No Local Lutheran Church has a connection to this Cemetery, I have a copy of the deed. The church was founded in 1847, and no longer used after a couple donated 3/4 of an acre farther away, with a stipulation of no Burials on the Property. The ST Johns Cemetery is Recorded in the Harrison Co. Recorders Office in a Record Book of directions and a Plot diagram of the 1 acre cemetery. I said to heck with the other, Put Lutheran and the Formation date of 1847 on the sign, he agreed with that. Now after all that I have said and described, am I dealing with the DNR or Nature Conservancy. I say DNR, you be the judge.? I came away from the meeting under the impression that I got as much as I could at this time. The Trustee will mow around Nov. 1st to a 6 inch height, This means from then until at least may, possibly until the first 2 weeks of June, visitors would be able to get in. When the burning does occur every 4 to 5 years, the grass will only be 6 inches high. I guess I can live with that. But as I told all of them as it is now (Wednesday Feb. 6, 2001) NO!. There is a Huge difference between 3 to 5 feet and 6 inches. Jack E. Briles Sr. Po Box 444 New Albany,Floyd Co. IN 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585 ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

In a message dated 3/7/02 6:58:46 AM US Eastern Standard Time, KidClerk@aol.com writes: > You > mentioned DNR and Nature Conservancy....are you dealing with both or just > one? Kyle, I don't know which one I am dealing with. They Came in a DNR Pickup. The Driver is with the Nature Preserve, which I understand is a Division within the Department of Natural Resources. The other fellow is with the Nature Conservancy. The Gentleman from Nature Preserve did the Talking. The sign they are going to put up is one of those small white ones, and they are taking down the ugly 3 ft by 7 ft. wooden sign directly in front of the cemetery at the road. The White sign is a standard DNR sign. one was put out on the list last fall I believe. I took a picture along to show them what was more appropriate. On the bottom of the sign it says, " Division of Nature Preserve, Indiana Department Of Natural Resources ( DNR ) As far as I am concerned I am dealing with the DNR. I have their names, and one is with Nature Preserve, The one in Charge, The other is with the Nature Conservancy. I have to assume I was dealing with a Division of the DNR. There will be a small change in the sign mentioning the Lutheran Cemetery, 1847, and "Barrens" A local Lutheran wanted the name Lutheran removed from the wooden Sign, which they did. I told him No Local Lutheran Church has a connection to this Cemetery, I have a copy of the deed. The church was founded in 1847, and no longer used after a couple donated 3/4 of an acre farther away, with a stipulation of no Burials on the Property. The ST Johns Cemetery is Recorded in the Harrison Co. Recorders Office in a Record Book of directions and a Plot diagram of the 1 acre cemetery. I said to heck with the other, Put Lutheran and the Formation date of 1847 on the sign, he agreed with that. Now after all that I have said and described, am I dealing with the DNR or Nature Conservancy. I say DNR, you be the judge.? I came away from the meeting under the impression that I got as much as I could at this time. The Trustee will mow around Nov. 1st to a 6 inch height, This means from then until at least may, possibly until the first 2 weeks of June, visitors would be able to get in. When the burning does occur every 4 to 5 years, the grass will only be 6 inches high. I guess I can live with that. But as I told all of them as it is now (Wednesday Feb. 6, 2001) NO!. There is a Huge difference between 3 to 5 feet and 6 inches. Jack E. Briles Sr. Po Box 444 New Albany,Floyd Co. IN 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585

Kyle, Thanks for these helpful ideas, which will help us to reformulate the By-Laws, our probable first task after reorganizing. In fact, we need more such ideas. We're working with a set of basic by-laws formulated in 1927 and amended twice. Seventy years later, there are additional issues to address. Our first challenge is to find at least 7 current lot owners who are not occupying their lots. The bylaws as now stated require that only lot owners can be members of the association, eligible to vote or hold office. One or two stalwart supporters expect to be buried in lots bought by their ancestors. Some have ancestors buried in this cemetery but have their own plots located elsewhere. We just have to get through this first meeting legally with officers and directors who are equal to the tasks ahead. Sharon Mills At 11:08 AM 3/7/02 -0500, you wrote: >Sharon: > >I cannot speak on the law, but I can speak as secretary of a cemetery >association on how we handle these situations. > >Our policy is if a survivor of a lot owner wishes to be buried in the lot, >then we must have permission from any remaining heirs. We then re-issue a >deed for that portion of the lot in the name of the heir, so that in 20 years >if none of us are around there is proof of ownership. This is, of course, if >we don't have any documentation from the original owner that they intended >for their children or whomever to be there anyway. Many times there are >notations in our records who to hold the lots for anyway. I have had >circumstances where two or three surviving children sign off that they don't >want the lot and that they agree to allow grandchildren to have the remaining >lots. Our biggest problem is from 50-70 years ago when families bought an >entire lot to help generate funds for the cemetery, but ended up only using >two of the six graves. Now there are no surviving reletives, except maybe >great or great great grandchildren who don't live in the area and have no >intention of being buried there. We have four unused graves that will >probably never be used, and we can't reclaim them to re-sell. > >Another problem is for husbands and wives who have the deeds issued in both >names but later divorce. They never think to have the divorce court decide >who gets the lots, or if they split them between the two. I know this sounds >like a minor issue in a divorce, but wait until one of them dies and the >other wanted to be buried there WITHOUT the ex-spouse being next to them. > >The BEST way for this issue to be handles is by a court of law, whether it is >in the case of divorce, probate or whatever. It gives clear and concise >answers to who retains ownership. It can become a very emotional issue when >there are not enough graves to go around and everybody wants to be buried >next to 'mom and dad'. > >Hope this helps. > >Kyle D. Conrad, Secretary >Riverside Cemetery Association >Brook, Indiana > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite.

Greetings from the "Golden" State: Last year California enacted a statute that dealt with this same subject. Prior to this, when a lot/plot was purchased it was "owned" by the party who purchased it. Most people did purchase with the idea that it would be used for whatever family members chose to be buried there. The purchaser, however, was the only legal party with absolute control over the disposition of the lot/plot. When the purchaser died and had not made provision to transfer that authority/"title", cemeteries were not allowed to bury anyone who's name was not connected with the purchase. For private licensed cemeteries, those with right to interment, extended only to surviving spouse and children, but not grandchildren. The new law enacted last year, provides that ownership interest in the cemetery lot/plot, if not transferred by specific bequeathment or through an estate distribution, will pass through the state's probate law of intestate succession. In other words, intestate succession in California means 1) to the surviving spouse, 2) if no spouse, to the children, 3) if no children, to the mother and father, 4) if no parents, to siblings, and on down the line. If none above the above, the plot remains inalienable for all time. I am the sexton of a cemetery association, and it is very common to restrict membership to lot owners. In our case, private cemetery associations have been determined to be under the regulation of the State Cemetery and Funeral Bureau, which is responsible for oversight of licensed private cemeteries. Though we are not required to be licensed, we are required to abide by those private cemetery statutes. Therefore, when we have someone make claim to burial in a plot, and the plot owner is dead, we run into this dilemma of do we allow the burial if no prior notice had been given authorizing that burial. Our board has decided that, providing there is room in the plot, and providing that the person can provide verifiable evidence of familial relation as a child or grandchild, then we will allow the burial in the plot. Ordinarily the requests recently have been for cremated remains interments, so we have been fortunate that it doesn't entail a great deal of impact to the ground. Whether that's in complete compliance with the law was weighed by the board. They decided that because the community is so small and everyone knows everyone else and their families, that it would be really inconsiderate not to use common sense. The plot is paid for, and part is available. How do you tell a mother that you can't allow her to bury her child next to the child's grandmother? We just couldn't do it. Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Mills" <mills@reliable-net.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:19 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] lot ownership questions > > Kyle, > > Thanks for these helpful ideas, which will help us to reformulate the > By-Laws, our probable first task after reorganizing. In fact, we need more > such ideas. > > We're working with a set of basic by-laws formulated in 1927 and amended > twice. Seventy years later, there are additional issues to address. > > Our first challenge is to find at least 7 current lot owners who are not > occupying their lots. The bylaws as now stated require that only lot > owners can be members of the association, eligible to vote or hold > office. One or two stalwart supporters expect to be buried in lots bought > by their ancestors. Some have ancestors buried in this cemetery but have > their own plots located elsewhere. > > We just have to get through this first meeting legally with officers and > directors who are equal to the tasks ahead. > > Sharon Mills > > At 11:08 AM 3/7/02 -0500, you wrote: > >Sharon: > > > >I cannot speak on the law, but I can speak as secretary of a cemetery > >association on how we handle these situations. > > > >Our policy is if a survivor of a lot owner wishes to be buried in the lot, > >then we must have permission from any remaining heirs. We then re-issue a > >deed for that portion of the lot in the name of the heir, so that in 20 years > >if none of us are around there is proof of ownership. This is, of course, if > >we don't have any documentation from the original owner that they intended > >for their children or whomever to be there anyway. Many times there are > >notations in our records who to hold the lots for anyway. I have had > >circumstances where two or three surviving children sign off that they don't > >want the lot and that they agree to allow grandchildren to have the remaining > >lots. Our biggest problem is from 50-70 years ago when families bought an > >entire lot to help generate funds for the cemetery, but ended up only using > >two of the six graves. Now there are no surviving reletives, except maybe > >great or great great grandchildren who don't live in the area and have no > >intention of being buried there. We have four unused graves that will > >probably never be used, and we can't reclaim them to re-sell. > > > >Another problem is for husbands and wives who have the deeds issued in both > >names but later divorce. They never think to have the divorce court decide > >who gets the lots, or if they split them between the two. I know this sounds > >like a minor issue in a divorce, but wait until one of them dies and the > >other wanted to be buried there WITHOUT the ex-spouse being next to them. > > > >The BEST way for this issue to be handles is by a court of law, whether it is > >in the case of divorce, probate or whatever. It gives clear and concise > >answers to who retains ownership. It can become a very emotional issue when > >there are not enough graves to go around and everybody wants to be buried > >next to 'mom and dad'. > > > >Hope this helps. > > > >Kyle D. Conrad, Secretary > >Riverside Cemetery Association > >Brook, Indiana > > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > >Cemetery: (n) A marble orchard not to be taken for granite. > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net. > >

Sharon: I cannot speak on the law, but I can speak as secretary of a cemetery association on how we handle these situations. Our policy is if a survivor of a lot owner wishes to be buried in the lot, then we must have permission from any remaining heirs. We then re-issue a deed for that portion of the lot in the name of the heir, so that in 20 years if none of us are around there is proof of ownership. This is, of course, if we don't have any documentation from the original owner that they intended for their children or whomever to be there anyway. Many times there are notations in our records who to hold the lots for anyway. I have had circumstances where two or three surviving children sign off that they don't want the lot and that they agree to allow grandchildren to have the remaining lots. Our biggest problem is from 50-70 years ago when families bought an entire lot to help generate funds for the cemetery, but ended up only using two of the six graves. Now there are no surviving reletives, except maybe great or great great grandchildren who don't live in the area and have no intention of being buried there. We have four unused graves that will probably never be used, and we can't reclaim them to re-sell. Another problem is for husbands and wives who have the deeds issued in both names but later divorce. They never think to have the divorce court decide who gets the lots, or if they split them between the two. I know this sounds like a minor issue in a divorce, but wait until one of them dies and the other wanted to be buried there WITHOUT the ex-spouse being next to them. The BEST way for this issue to be handles is by a court of law, whether it is in the case of divorce, probate or whatever. It gives clear and concise answers to who retains ownership. It can become a very emotional issue when there are not enough graves to go around and everybody wants to be buried next to 'mom and dad'. Hope this helps. Kyle D. Conrad, Secretary Riverside Cemetery Association Brook, Indiana

good point,, What would we do if we caught a bunch of kids out in a cemetery having a burn?? Guess they need to put that on signs , as some cemeteries have " No dogs unless kept in cars".. now add "No Burning."... ..Ruth Pride Wheatland.......

Dear Jack, Cemetery preservation is challenging and it dose tests our abilities to communicate our passion to all kinds of people in our community. Some good and then the hard heads. <g> You have done a good job working through this and helping us understand the struggle. I have one in my county too. I still don't know who owns it. I have 2 questions. 1.- I want to know more about the SIGN they or you are going to use? 2.-What are you using to mark the stones you are moving? Marking the ground with paint sounds great if your working in a fairly soon. But I don't know what to use on the stones pieces that are moved. I guess a gold old sketch would work if your not talking many pieces. LA

I've tried searching the Archives for this subject, which I think has been discussed before. Maybe I"m not using the right words, but I can't get a reference. My question pertains to lot ownership. A person who purchases a lot is obviously an owner of the lot. If that person dies leaving vacancies for burial of relatives, do the relatives who plan to be buried there become owners of their plots? Does it require mention in a will? Continuing along the possibilities, if a lot owner dies leaving one survivor, does that survivor become the owner of the lot along with other inherited property? Does it need to be mentioned in a will, even though this would be a very simple probate? What if there are two or more survivors? Even further afield, does one of a number of survivors of a lot owner have any claim to lot ownership? Cemeteries often look to survivors for guidance about removal of shrubs and flowers from grave sites. Does this suggest some kind of ownership? I ask because the original By-Laws of a specific cemetery association restrict its membership to lot owners. The cemetery is nearly full, and no meetings have been held for more than 20 years. I know the By-Laws can be changed, but first there must be at least seven people with legitimate membership to elect a board of directors to take any action. Sharon Mills

Jack: I congratulate you on your victory, especially if you are OK with it. But it still irritates me at how arrogant the nature preservationists are. You mentioned DNR and Nature Conservancy....are you dealing with both or just one? We have a large area of land that the Nature Conservancy has purchased here in Newton County. I wish more people would know what happens when they come to your community. They buy large amounts of land for nature preserve purposes, then turn it over to the DNR which immediately takes it off of the tax rolls and causes OUR taxes to go up. If that's not bad enough...they obviously have little regard for cemeteries...and have the arrogance and power to do things their own way. How do you penalize kids for vandalizing cemeteries or condemn developers for destroying cemeteries when you allow our own state and it's agents to their own legal desecration? Something is still terribly wrong here. -Kyle

I spent from 9:00 to 10:20 with The Trustee for Morgan Township, Harrison Co. IN. and two Representatives of the Nature Preserve. It pertained to the BURNING OFF of St Johns Cemetery. The Pictures Lois put on the List showed Grass and WEEDS from 2 to 5 ft. high. And visitors could not go in because of what we call "Stick Tites" They have been burning this cemetery off since 1984 when the trustee handed it over to them, and they have been MANAGING it since. I'm sure some of you must know I protested this after Wm. Mahan contacted Lois about an E-mail he had received about the mess and the burning. I went out within an Hour looked and took Pictures. I was Mad as HELL. I kept sending out E-mail about the Cemetery. I made it quite plain I did not like what they were doing. After E-mailing Jeannie, she went higher and they put a Moratorium on the Burning. They only had an Oral Agreement, but some times that is legal. I also gave copies of my E. mail to The Trustee. He said he couldn't do anything until he got something in writing from the DNR. I made it clear this is the Burial Ground of my first ancestor to Indiana about 1810, and it was wrong, because they couldn't prove no damage from the burning. I really don't know from there what happened, but the Trustee called me Friday and said the Nature Conservancy (DNR) wanted to meet he and I this morning at 9 AM. I quickly agreed. Before I got there I told my wife, "We can never stop the burning this easy. When we got there, I got out, walked over, introduced my self. The trustee had already asked about keeping it mowed and they said no. We talked about the Condition i.e.; Crooked stone, broken, and dark gray, First thing the Trustee asked if after the growing season about Nov. 1st could he mow it then. They finally agreed The agreement was to mow it 6 inches hi. then they would burn that. I asked how often. They finally agreed on every 4 or 5 years.They asked if I would agree to the burning. I turned around and looked and said" Like it is now, I said "Hell no" absolutely not. But 6 inches, yes. Then the Trustee asked about mowing it in about a week. so people could get in. They agreed to that. But first someone has to find all fallen pieces of stone and move them. I agreed to Volunteer to do that. I have to photograph them, Measure from the nearest stone, mark with orange Florescent Paint and a stake in the ground, and copy all information before I move it, then replace them after the mowing. I asked about the crooked stone, (Leaning) they have had no one who knew anything about doing that. I agreed to Level some when I can using Pea Gravel with a little sand to level with. They agreed to that (Naturally) The way it stands now it will be mowed in a week down to 6 inches, no burning now. Then Mow it around the 1st. of November. This would give access to visitors from Nov. 1 until probably mid may before it gets a little high. Before you couldn't enter anytime because of the WEEDS and "Stick Tites". The Trustee will give me a cover Letter to work for him on anything I do. OKAY, I never won, but I honestly believe I did the best I could at this time. Burning 6 inch hi Grass is different then 3 to 5 Feet high grass, and only that every 4 to 5 years. Also, The BIG WOODEN SIGN IS COMING DOWN and a small white one made up with St Johns Lutheran Cemetery mentioned on it just like the Photograph someone put on the List. The local Lutheran church Minister had them take Lutheran off the Large wooden sign. It goes back on this one with the date the Church was formed in 1847. I know what you all think, this was a very small victory. But what would it have been if I had of kept quiet. You be the judge !! I'm sure my Ancestor George Briles would agree with me. Sorry this is so long, but there was more discussed than this. this is a short version. I never talked much, the other 3 did ? Thanks to all who finished this without going to sleep Jack E. Briles Sr. Po Box 444 New Albany, Floyd Co. IN (812) 282-6585

In a message dated 3/6/02 9:07:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time, rhapke@adsnet.com writes: > Just agreeing with both of ya. > > Russ > > Hey Russ and Sue, I have to Joke A little, forgive me I didn't mean it to be that much (snicker) Jack

One small step for St. John's, one giant step for cemetery-kind. Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:19 PM Subject: [INPCRP] St Johns Lutheran Cemetery (Compromize) > > I spent from 9:00 to 10:20 with The Trustee for Morgan Township, > Harrison Co. IN. and two Representatives of the Nature Preserve. It pertained > to the BURNING OFF of St Johns Cemetery. The Pictures Lois put on the List > showed Grass and WEEDS from 2 to 5 ft. high. And visitors could not go in > because of what we call "Stick Tites" They have been burning this cemetery > off since 1984 when the trustee handed it over to them, and they have been > MANAGING it since. I'm sure some of you must know I protested this after Wm. > Mahan contacted Lois about an E-mail he had received about the mess and the > burning. I went out within an Hour looked and took Pictures. I was Mad as > HELL. I kept sending out E-mail about the Cemetery. I made it quite plain I > did not like what they were doing. > After E-mailing Jeannie, she went higher and they put a Moratorium > on the Burning. They only had an Oral Agreement, but some times that is > legal. I also gave copies of my E. mail to The Trustee. He said he couldn't > do anything until he got something in writing from the DNR. I made it clear > this is the Burial Ground of my first ancestor to Indiana about 1810, and it > was wrong, because they couldn't prove no damage from the burning. I really > don't know from there what happened, but the Trustee called me Friday and > said the Nature Conservancy (DNR) wanted to meet he and I this morning at 9 > AM. I quickly agreed. Before I got there I told my wife, "We can never stop > the burning this easy. When we got there, I got out, walked over, introduced > my self. The trustee had already asked about keeping it mowed and they said > no. > We talked about the Condition i.e.; Crooked stone, broken, and > dark gray, First thing the Trustee asked if after the growing season about > Nov. 1st could he mow it then. They finally agreed The agreement was to mow > it 6 inches hi. then they would burn that. I asked how often. They finally > agreed on every 4 or 5 years.They asked if I would agree to the burning. I > turned around and looked and said" Like it is now, I said "Hell no" > absolutely not. But 6 inches, yes. Then the Trustee asked about mowing it in > about a week. so people could get in. They agreed to that. But first someone > has to find all fallen pieces of stone and move them. I agreed to Volunteer > to do that. > I have to photograph them, Measure from the nearest stone, mark with > orange Florescent Paint and a stake in the ground, and copy all information > before I move it, then replace them after the mowing. I asked about the > crooked stone, (Leaning) they have had no one who knew anything about doing > that. I agreed to Level some when I can using Pea Gravel with a little sand > to level with. They agreed to that (Naturally) The way it stands now it will > be mowed in a week down to 6 inches, no burning now. Then Mow it around the > 1st. of November. This would give access to visitors from Nov. 1 until > probably mid may before it gets a little high. Before you couldn't enter > anytime because of the WEEDS and "Stick Tites". The Trustee will give me a > cover Letter to work for him on anything I do. > OKAY, I never won, but I honestly believe I did the best I could > at this time. Burning 6 inch hi Grass is different then 3 to 5 Feet high > grass, and only that every 4 to 5 years. Also, The BIG WOODEN SIGN IS COMING > DOWN and a small white one made up with St Johns Lutheran Cemetery mentioned > on it just like the Photograph someone put on the List. The local Lutheran > church Minister had them take Lutheran off the Large wooden sign. It goes > back on this one with the date the Church was formed in 1847. I know what you > all think, this was a very small victory. But what would it have been if I > had of kept quiet. You be the judge !! I'm sure my Ancestor George Briles > would agree with me. Sorry this is so long, but there was more discussed than > this. this is a short version. I never talked much, the other 3 did ? > Thanks to all who finished this without going to sleep > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Po Box 444 > New Albany, Floyd Co. IN > (812) 282-6585 > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > >

Russ, Like Sue, Thats what I said, with about 3 minutes to write it in and mail it this afternoon. Any stronger Law takes Presedence No matter Local, State, Federal. But weaker takes nothing. I haven't studied Law for 42 years. Please Forgive me. I was never more than an Amicus Curiea, but they said I wasn't friendly enough, go on home. Jack

In a message dated 3/6/02 5:32:26 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ssilver1951@jps.net writes: > Well, that's my addlepated view of it... > > Sue, I said the samr thing only different (I think) Jack

In California we solved the problem of law enforcement officers not knowing the Health and Safety Codes re: vandalism and desecration and moved it into the Penal Code. That might be an avenue for you there. I know I spent hours talking to deputies all of this county and on the phone and still couldn't get them to understand that our Health and Safety Code was enforceable! It was really irritating..... Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Hapke" <rhapke@adsnet.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] LaPorte County vandalism ordinance(Opinion) > Hi Jack and Sue, > > You are both correct in that State Laws will take precedent, if there is a lack, absence or non-effective body of local governing laws. In the case of LaPorte County, I believe that the commissioners had addressed the Cemetery Preservation group that the state laws were to prevail; however, the main purpose of LP County Resolution 2002-02 (I believe that is the number given) is to help prevent further ignorance of the laws by local bodies of authority. The commission also emphasized the urgency of ensuring that local judges and law enforcement officials were up to date on current cemetery laws. > > What we found in one instance was that one deputy, although he had most of the Indiana Code on a database laptop for easy reference on the road, did not have IC14 at all on the database, which is one of the biggies for historic preservation and cemeteries in Indiana. > > Just as a note for all on the board, you might wish to contact your local judicial and law enforcement bodies. Make sure that they are up to date on any and all codes dealing with historic preservation and cemetery preservation. Send a nice and encouraging letter to local judges and sheriff's, along with a photocopy of IC14. Perhaps state (and I know that for some this has already been done a lot in your areas, but to those who haven't...read on) what your local preservation groups are doing in a positive light and that you just wish to make sure that everyone was on the same page when talking about cemetery preservation. With the construction of new sub-divisions and such, I think the extra 'push' would be appreciated. > > Russ Hapke > LP Co. > > > > Hi Jack, > > Here in the "golden" state, we understand that State law is the basis for > all laws in the state. A county may enact a more stringent law (ordinance), > but it cannot enact a less stringent law. In cases where a Federal law is > more stringent than state law in respect to the same offense, Federal > prevails. > > In the event a county ordinance is challenged and found unconstitutional, > reliance is on the next available statute, that usually being state law. > > Well, that's my addlepated view of it... > > Sue Silver > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Jb502000@aol.com> > To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] LaPorte County vandalism ordinance(Opinion) > > > > In a message dated 3/6/02 3:24:50 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > > tielking@knightstown.net writes: > > > > > > > ? Will House Act 1522 override the county ordinance? > > > > > > > > > > Angela, > > No State or Fedral Law can have preference over a local Law if they cover > the > > same subject, AND the Local Law is constitutional and Stronger, then it > takes > > presedence over State and Federal Laws as long as they aren't in Direct > > oppisition to each other. > > A weaker Law has no preference, and a Stronger Law that covers a subject > in > > a slightly different way also must take a back seat to either of the other > > two. Come on Legal Beagles, am I wrong?? > > > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > > Po Box 444 > > New Albany, Floyd Co. IN. > > (812) 282-6585 > > jb502000@aol.com > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net. > >