Jack, I'll bet that there have been plenty of studies conducted on stone materials similar to those used in cemeteries. Thermal shock is routinely used in virtually all material testing. No, they didn't make tombstone sized samples, stand them up in a field full of wild flowers and set fire to the place once a year as a test; however, I'd be willing to bet that there has been a great deal of lab testing that involved repetitive heating and cooling at extreme temperatures. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that there were material tests carried out for fire and flame retardance that closely emulate the stress placed on headstones subjected to long term annual burnings. Common sense seems to suggest that direct and or extreme heating and cooling over time very probably has an adverse effect on headstones. Since we won't live long enough to arrive at a conclusion using the methods of observation you've enumerated, it's probably a good idea to seek evidence and data derived from tests carried out on similar materials for other purposes. I believe that this is the research Heather has agreed to undertake. This is an important topic for discussion since it appears that the state has adopted a program of utilizing early cemeteries for the propagation of native flora, and since folks on this list that are engaged in the restoration and preservation of pioneer monuments have a keen interest in any activity that may tend to cause an undesirable impact. I'm certain that there is an equitable compromise, but in order to arrive at one it will be necessary to be fully informed and armed with the facts. Regards, Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 (765) 464-8735 http://www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Jb502000@aol.com To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning In a message dated 4/5/02 7:08:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maryalicepa@earthlink.net writes: > Heather, a good place to check would be the agronomy depts at Purdue or > Illinois. > > MaryAlice Parks > It will be hard to find comprehensive studies, because burning cemeteries is so rare there has never been a need to do a study. The Indiana Limestone Institute in Bedford, IN. Knows nothing about anything like this. And if you do a study in the cemeteries, will the stones last long enough to complete a factual study. And on whose word do we depend for this.? Also to say over a number of years nothing has happened, is like saying I have never had an automobile accident in my life. And then (Bang) it happens, then it's to late. For a Scientific study, we need to know certain things before any burning. Such as Air temperature, (Are the stones Cold when the Quick heat from the fire hits them), condition of the stones, (Verifiable) actual average height of the grass or (Wild Flowers). Before Photographs, also Photographs at measured intervals of time between burnings, Examination of each stone for weak, cracked, or flaking areas. The temperature at varying places in the cemetery during the burning (The Grass and Wild flowers are thicker in places, causing hotter temperatures as they burn), at varying height's, I.e., during burning, ground level, middle, and extreme heat at the crest of the fire near the top of the stones. Moisture content in the stones, Atmospheric humidity at the time of burning, Type of material the stones are composed of, age, (if can be determined by dates) Discoloration of the stone from the burning (They have a Gray, smoky look,) Having visually looked at the stones over a period of time is not a study, unless the degree of knowledge of the particular stones is within the scope of the knowledge of the person/persons conducting the burn, or affiliated with them, and they can certify no damage has occurred. To determine actual damage to the Tombstones a study with facts must be done. I don't believe the DHPA would allow such a thing to happen to one of their holdings, without A comprehensive study that would prove beyond a doubt no damage would, or had occurred. If this could not be proven, it would not be done. And that is as it should be. Natural fires by lightning has, and will continue to happen, But how many times in the last 150-175 years has it happened in a cemetery. Does anyone have figures on this? (How about even a Guess) And how come it's always someone else's cemetery that just happens to be fortunate enough to be the right one for Burning. I suppose my poor uneducated German Ancestors did not know how to pick a cemetery location. I have found out, you don't do it in an area with Wild Flowers, or Native grasses. Now before everyone jumps on me, put your self in my position (Torn between Flowers and Grass, and Tombstones from our past history.) I believe in the Preservation of all, but just not in the same place. From past Experience, and the (Large chemical companies) these flowers and grass exist only in cemeteries. Why, because the cemeteries were allowed to grow up, even after the Legislature passed Laws forbidding it. They don't grow outside the cemetery because no farmer would ever allow it. I know these Wild Flowers will grow where ever you plant them. I have trouble believing that the Nature Preserve does not have the expertise to transplant these to a nice piece of ground they own and make a showplace out of it without depriving descendants reasonable access to their loved ones grave sites. We all believe in Preservation, just not the same thing, nor in the same way. Bitterness is not in my vocabulary, I believe in facts and also in open discussion. FYI, I have been a Stone Mason since 1955 when I got my union card. I can speak with some degree of Authority. Feel free to critique any thing I have said. Please Post on the List for the benefit of all of us. We are all still in the learning curve. Sincerely, Jack E. Briles, Sr. Floyd County PCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585 E-mail jb502000@aol.com ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== If you know of some good cemetery related links, send them to LoisMauk@usa.net.

In a message dated 4/5/02 7:08:15 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maryalicepa@earthlink.net writes: > Heather, a good place to check would be the agronomy depts at Purdue or > Illinois. > > MaryAlice Parks > It will be hard to find comprehensive studies, because burning cemeteries is so rare there has never been a need to do a study. The Indiana Limestone Institute in Bedford, IN. Knows nothing about anything like this. And if you do a study in the cemeteries, will the stones last long enough to complete a factual study. And on whose word do we depend for this.? Also to say over a number of years nothing has happened, is like saying I have never had an automobile accident in my life. And then (Bang) it happens, then it's to late. For a Scientific study, we need to know certain things before any burning. Such as Air temperature, (Are the stones Cold when the Quick heat from the fire hits them), condition of the stones, (Verifiable) actual average height of the grass or (Wild Flowers). Before Photographs, also Photographs at measured intervals of time between burnings, Examination of each stone for weak, cracked, or flaking areas. The temperature at varying places in the cemetery during the burning (The Grass and Wild flowers are thicker in places, causing hotter temperatures as they burn), at varying height's, I.e., during burning, ground level, middle, and extreme heat at the crest of the fire near the top of the stones. Moisture content in the stones, Atmospheric humidity at the time of burning, Type of material the stones are composed of, age, (if can be determined by dates) Discoloration of the stone from the burning (They have a Gray, smoky look,) Having visually looked at the stones over a period of time is not a study, unless the degree of knowledge of the particular stones is within the scope of the knowledge of the person/persons conducting the burn, or affiliated with them, and they can certify no damage has occurred. To determine actual damage to the Tombstones a study with facts must be done. I don't believe the DHPA would allow such a thing to happen to one of their holdings, without A comprehensive study that would prove beyond a doubt no damage would, or had occurred. If this could not be proven, it would not be done. And that is as it should be. Natural fires by lightning has, and will continue to happen, But how many times in the last 150-175 years has it happened in a cemetery. Does anyone have figures on this? (How about even a Guess) And how come it's always someone else's cemetery that just happens to be fortunate enough to be the right one for Burning. I suppose my poor uneducated German Ancestors did not know how to pick a cemetery location. I have found out, you don't do it in an area with Wild Flowers, or Native grasses. Now before everyone jumps on me, put your self in my position (Torn between Flowers and Grass, and Tombstones from our past history.) I believe in the Preservation of all, but just not in the same place. From past Experience, and the (Large chemical companies) these flowers and grass exist only in cemeteries. Why, because the cemeteries were allowed to grow up, even after the Legislature passed Laws forbidding it. They don't grow outside the cemetery because no farmer would ever allow it. I know these Wild Flowers will grow where ever you plant them. I have trouble believing that the Nature Preserve does not have the expertise to transplant these to a nice piece of ground they own and make a showplace out of it without depriving descendants reasonable access to their loved ones grave sites. We all believe in Preservation, just not the same thing, nor in the same way. Bitterness is not in my vocabulary, I believe in facts and also in open discussion. FYI, I have been a Stone Mason since 1955 when I got my union card. I can speak with some degree of Authority. Feel free to critique any thing I have said. Please Post on the List for the benefit of all of us. We are all still in the learning curve. Sincerely, Jack E. Briles, Sr. Floyd County PCRP Coordinator PO Box 444 New Albany, In. 47151-0444 (812) 282-6585 E-mail jb502000@aol.com

We don't we all forget mowing our lawns, and burn them off? This does not make sense...... Adina Watkins Dyer wrote: > Granville Cemetery in Tippecanoe County is also one that is left to grow > in its natural state and is burned off, I believe, annually. Letting > the vegetation grow makes it very, very difficult to find the broken > stones and repair them. > > I visited Granville Cemetery late last year and took as many photos as I > could, but found it difficult walking through the cemetery without > stepping on fallen stones. There is a picture of Granville Cemetery as > it looked years ago and also one as it looked last year on the > Tippecanoe County GenWeb site: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~intippec/GranvilleCem.html > > There are also a few tombstone pictures. > > Adina Dyer > Tippecanoe Co. INGenWeb http://www.rootsweb.com/~intippec/index.html > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England > and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals."

Granville Cemetery in Tippecanoe County is also one that is left to grow in its natural state and is burned off, I believe, annually. Letting the vegetation grow makes it very, very difficult to find the broken stones and repair them. I visited Granville Cemetery late last year and took as many photos as I could, but found it difficult walking through the cemetery without stepping on fallen stones. There is a picture of Granville Cemetery as it looked years ago and also one as it looked last year on the Tippecanoe County GenWeb site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~intippec/GranvilleCem.html There are also a few tombstone pictures. Adina Dyer Tippecanoe Co. INGenWeb http://www.rootsweb.com/~intippec/index.html

Heather, a good place to check would be the agronomy depts at Purdue or Illinois. MaryAlice Parks ----- Original Message ----- From: <Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning > rich- > > I am new to this list, so please let me know If I need to respond in a > different way. > > I have become quite good at comprehensive literature reviews, and spend a > lot of time in the library. It would be no problem to begin looking for > lit., on this matter. I actually think it would be very interesting. > > I've worked on headstone restoration and epitaph preservation projects in > the Anth,. dept., here at IUPUI. I think several people on faculty could be > helpful. > > I know that cemetery burnings are controversial in many regards. However, I > am a firm believer in preserving the environmental integrity of the > landscape. Often, the landscape/geography of the cemetery is as > contextually important as the markers and plots themselves. in many cases, > burning is absolutely necessary to the regeneration of native grasses and > flora. Smith cemetery is a perfect example. The fire(s) should be planned > and supervised by qualified individuals, as to ensure that the fire is quick > and safe. usually, the vegetation is low and not too thick. This prevents > prolonged and extremely high temperature burns (which would increase the > likelihood of damage). > > I'll begin to explore the literature on this topic and will share whatever I > learn. > > Sincerely, > > Heather Wallace > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Green [mailto:rgreen@nlci.com] > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:21 AM > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning > > > Hi Heather, > > I would also be interested in information pertaining to the effects of > cemetery burning. It would seem logical to me that the long term effect > of burning in cemeteries may ultimately adversely impact the headstones. > > The variety of stone materials are already weathering at different rates > as a result of normal climate changes. It follows then that > artificially induced severe temperatures and the accelerated rate of > temperature change coupled with any chemical residues of burned material > may hasten deterioration. Or is there some evidence that the results of > burning tend to inhibit headstone weathering? This is an interesting > topic and one worthy of discussion by the members of this cemetery > preservation list. > > I recall once reading the cautionary statements on the use of cleaning > chemicals on marble and granite floor materials. I believe the > manufacturer advised against the use of any harsh cleaning fluids and > even heavily chlorinated waters? Surely there have been intensive > studies of similar materials utilized in the building or other > industries that could be utilized to compare and possibly predict the > long term effect burning activity may have on the stone materials found > in 19th century pioneer cemeteries? > > In this wacky world of ISO standards and extensive testing of > construction materials, I am confident that there have been copious > thermal tests conducted on these types of stone done by someone. > Indiana University is located right in the heart of "stone country" and > would be a good place to start an inquiry. > > I was hoping someone on the list would broach this subject from the > perspective of the possible effects on the headstone inscriptions. In > many cases, the stones in these early cemeteries offer a peek into the > pioneer history of the region not recorded elsewhere. If the carvings > are allowed to deteriorate beyond recognition (or if this process is > actually accelerated), we may be inadvertently increasing the loss of > valuable historical and genealogical information not found elsewhere. > > Thanks in advance for forwarding your information on this important > topic. > > Regards, > - > Rich Green > Historic Archaeological Research > 4338 Hadley Court > West Lafayette, IN 47906 > Office: (765) 464-8735 > Home: (765) 464-8095 > http://www.har-indy.com > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. >

One of the reasons there is so little natural prairie left is because of overfertilation touted, naturally, by the big fertilizer companies. Overfertilization permits weeds to flourish. Don't know if this could be the reason, but obviously, noone would fertilize a cemetery so maybe that's why they thought it would be a good place to let prairie return. Could it be that the cemetery preservationists will end up fighting the prairie preservationists? What a comment on our society. Well, all we can do is what we can do, and this group seems to do it pretty well. MaryAlice Parks ----- Original Message ----- From: <Pride1jw@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:35 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] St. John's / Barrens Cemetery > I agree with Sue about Jack and his endeavors to do what he feels is right > regarding the Barrens? Cemetery( and others as well)..I can't for the life of > me help but feel there is an eighth of an acre somewhere in the same area > that the DNR and Nat. Cons. could use as a plot to preserve native flora. Of > all the land the Nat. Cons. owns ...I will reconsider when I choose /choose > not to buy Enviornmental Plates for my vechicle and pay dues to the Nat. > Cons..Both of which I have done for years....Ruth Pride Wheatland,Knox Co.... > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England > and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." >

Dale, We have the WPA plats for 144 cemeteries that were done in Gibson County in 1939 & 1940, and used these many times to locate old cemeteries. Two main obstacles were that the roads have moved in the last 60 years, and some old reference points and landmarks have changed. Most have been right where they said they were if we could figure out those changes. Sometimes they were not real clear on starting measuring points. One plat had a line and an arrow which indicated 1 3/10 miles from a curve in the road to a point where they measured 475' off the road to the corner of the cemetery. The actual starting point was at the edge of a small town 2/10 mile from the curve, so we were off that far on the starting point. The cemetery was actually 463' from the road, the road much wider and straighter than it was in 1939. In another one, it showed rhe road 75' from the cemetery where the road was actually directly beside the cemetery. Old County plats confirmed that the road had been straightened and improved. The actual grave plats are a different story. You are correct that the microfilm process has skewed the actual size scale. And there seems to be differences on what the squares represent. It seems to depend on how easy it was for them to determine actual demensions. The first one we worked with was fairly simple to determine, a grave was 2' 8" wide and 10' long, (7' grave, 3' walkway between the next row). Others appeared to be slightly over 5' wide and 11' long. By measuring the stones or bases still in place, it looks like these were laid out with a lot of 2 graves and a 4' walkway. On some, walkways and drives were platted. We found one where the drives no longer existed, but noticed the dates on the graves where the drives were platted were burials within the last 25 years. Apparently as they ran out of room they began to eliminate some drives and sell the space as lots. An easy test of lot widths and depths is to find a cemetery that has been maintained over the years where you can be fairly certain that the stones are in the original location, and has at least three or four Veteran's markers. Measure the distances between them and compare that to the number of spaces/rows on the WPA plat. The older deteriorated cemeteries will not be so easy, but will give you reference points when searching for graves and buried/missing markers. The objective of the project was to locate Veteran's markers, and at least that information seems to be accurate on most of ours. I think on some they estimated the size of a cemetery based on how many lots and rows it would take to square off a cemetery to include only a few markers. There were probably never that many lots/graves, but measurements between graves indicated that X number of graves and rows could be there. We have one that shows four rows of five graves, twenty graves total, but only seven graves exist in the cemetery. Others are not completely platted, one showing a 20' by 20' cemetery, and dotted lines indicating four rows. One plat on a still-active cemetery shows larger sections that seem to be eight and 12 grave family plots, but do not have individual graves marked out. It seems to all depend on what crew measured and drew the plat, how well they could obtain accurate measurements on original stone locations, and whether or not they could determine actual outer boundaries of the cemetery and the actual number of lots contained within. Ernie At 09:15 AM 04/05/2002 -0500, you wrote: >To all: > >I have a question on how to interpret the WPA cemetery plats. At first I >thought the grid indicated graves, but in examining cemeteries with marked >military burials, sometimes two burials are in one square. So we've >interpreted >the grid of rectangles to indicate overall size, and it is tied to the >legend at >the bottom of each cemetery, i.e. 1 inch = 20 feet. > >Now, if you're working from copies which were generated from microfilm, you've >lost the actual size of the drawing. On the originals at the State >Archives the >grid squares are 1 inch (long side) by 1/2 inch (short side). You can easily >calculate the size of the cemetery from this, although it's obvious that >the WPA >survey team was guessing many times. (As we do when we're standing in the >middle of a thicket trying to figure out where the edges are.) But it's a >start >- when you're showing the plat to the neighbors you can at least say that in >1940 someone thought the cemetery was, say, 40 feet by 50 feet. > >Has anyone else worked with these plats? Are we interpreting them >correctly? I >find them incredibly valuable when trying to prove the existence of a cemetery >which no longer has stones, particularly. > >And on plats ... the other old record to check for cemetery locations are the >assessor plat books at your local courthouse. These are drawings of each >section of land, with property boundaries. We have a series on microfilm >which >were done every four years from 1903 through 1925 - cemeteries are prominently >marked on these. Again, for one particular cemetery in this county it's the >only formal proof we have that the cemetery existed. > >Dale > >Dale Drake >Morgan Co History & Genealogy Assn > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Please do not send queries through this list.

Dale, Thanks for bringing up the issue of WPA cemetery plats. I have no answers for you on interpretation, except to say that I attempted to use one of these maps, copied from the Indiana State Archives collection, and discovered the cemetery was on the other side of the road from where it should have been on the map. At the time the Redenbaugh cemetery in Montgomery Co was not visible, because cows had broken up the headstones. If one had gone by the map instead of the recollection of life-time residents, the cemetery would never have been found. When graves sites were eventually identified, they had no relationship with the plots, lots, rows, or lines on the WPA map. This cemetery was visible until about the 1950's, so the WPA should have been able to draw graves accurately. I'm working with a second set of WPA cemetery maps. This large cemetery has about 3 small section maps and one large over-all map. When sections overlap, the numbering system for lots does not compare accurately. Roads are shown that never have been created. I don't find a reference in the cemetery records to any discussions the WPA had with cemetery association members. There are no previous maps in the cemetery records, of which I have what appears to be a complete set. So did the WPA go out and map independent of meeting with people in the community? There is some relevance to the way grave sites have been laid out and sold but there are some differences too. Thanks for mentioning the assessor books from the early 1900's. I intend to look these up for additional clues to the boundaries for the second cemetery, where some stones may have been removed from a section or two. Sharon Mills At 09:15 AM 4/5/02, you wrote: >To all: > >I have a question on how to interpret the WPA cemetery plats. At first I >thought the grid indicated graves, but in examining cemeteries with marked >military burials, sometimes two burials are in one square. So we've >interpreted >the grid of rectangles to indicate overall size, and it is tied to the >legend at >the bottom of each cemetery, i.e. 1 inch = 20 feet. > >Now, if you're working from copies which were generated from microfilm, you've >lost the actual size of the drawing. On the originals at the State >Archives the >grid squares are 1 inch (long side) by 1/2 inch (short side). You can easily >calculate the size of the cemetery from this, although it's obvious that >the WPA >survey team was guessing many times. (As we do when we're standing in the >middle of a thicket trying to figure out where the edges are.) But it's a >start >- when you're showing the plat to the neighbors you can at least say that in >1940 someone thought the cemetery was, say, 40 feet by 50 feet. > >Has anyone else worked with these plats? Are we interpreting them >correctly? I >find them incredibly valuable when trying to prove the existence of a cemetery >which no longer has stones, particularly. > >And on plats ... the other old record to check for cemetery locations are the >assessor plat books at your local courthouse. These are drawings of each >section of land, with property boundaries. We have a series on microfilm >which >were done every four years from 1903 through 1925 - cemeteries are prominently >marked on these. Again, for one particular cemetery in this county it's the >only formal proof we have that the cemetery existed. > >Dale > >Dale Drake >Morgan Co History & Genealogy Assn > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Please do not send queries through this list.

To all: I have a question on how to interpret the WPA cemetery plats. At first I thought the grid indicated graves, but in examining cemeteries with marked military burials, sometimes two burials are in one square. So we've interpreted the grid of rectangles to indicate overall size, and it is tied to the legend at the bottom of each cemetery, i.e. 1 inch = 20 feet. Now, if you're working from copies which were generated from microfilm, you've lost the actual size of the drawing. On the originals at the State Archives the grid squares are 1 inch (long side) by 1/2 inch (short side). You can easily calculate the size of the cemetery from this, although it's obvious that the WPA survey team was guessing many times. (As we do when we're standing in the middle of a thicket trying to figure out where the edges are.) But it's a start - when you're showing the plat to the neighbors you can at least say that in 1940 someone thought the cemetery was, say, 40 feet by 50 feet. Has anyone else worked with these plats? Are we interpreting them correctly? I find them incredibly valuable when trying to prove the existence of a cemetery which no longer has stones, particularly. And on plats ... the other old record to check for cemetery locations are the assessor plat books at your local courthouse. These are drawings of each section of land, with property boundaries. We have a series on microfilm which were done every four years from 1903 through 1925 - cemeteries are prominently marked on these. Again, for one particular cemetery in this county it's the only formal proof we have that the cemetery existed. Dale Dale Drake Morgan Co History & Genealogy Assn

Jack: Thanks for posting these photos. The cemetery does look better - and hopefully the stick-tights have been killed off! Have you discussed with anyone the effect of moisture in the stone on the day of the burning? Since these stones are porous I'd think that there is more risk of damage if they're moist from rain than if it's been dry for a while. I apologize if I missed a discussion of this earlier - I've been out of town and catching up on the backlog. Dale Dale Drake Morgan Co History & Genealogy Assn Cemetery Committee Jb502000@aol.com wrote: > If anyone is interested in the short story of St Johns and the Latest go to; > > www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/Barrenscem.html > > There are before and after pictures. Judge for yourself if there is a > difference Personally I feel like the effort was worth it. But Judge for > yourself. Some day you may have to decide your course of action. > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator > Po Box 444 > New Albany, Floyd Co. In. > 47151-0444 > E-mail jb502000@aol.com > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

Great! I'm sure you'll find that there have indeed been use wear, thermal shock, vibration and many other studies of materials manufactured using similar stone types. It should be interesting research. I think this is a topic that will spark interest in this list since cemetery preservation folks are attempting to stabilize grave markers and are often involved in the restoration of damaged stones. However, please don't hesitate to contact me off-list if there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Regards, - Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Home: (765) 464-8095 http://www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:51 AM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning > rich- > > I am new to this list, so please let me know If I need to respond in a > different way. > > I have become quite good at comprehensive literature reviews, and spend a > lot of time in the library. It would be no problem to begin looking for > lit., on this matter. I actually think it would be very interesting. > > I've worked on headstone restoration and epitaph preservation projects in > the Anth,. dept., here at IUPUI. I think several people on faculty could be > helpful. > > I know that cemetery burnings are controversial in many regards. However, I > am a firm believer in preserving the environmental integrity of the > landscape. Often, the landscape/geography of the cemetery is as > contextually important as the markers and plots themselves. in many cases, > burning is absolutely necessary to the regeneration of native grasses and > flora. Smith cemetery is a perfect example. The fire(s) should be planned > and supervised by qualified individuals, as to ensure that the fire is quick > and safe. usually, the vegetation is low and not too thick. This prevents > prolonged and extremely high temperature burns (which would increase the > likelihood of damage). > > I'll begin to explore the literature on this topic and will share whatever I > learn. > > Sincerely, > > Heather Wallace > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rich Green [mailto:rgreen@nlci.com] > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:21 AM > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning > > > Hi Heather, > > I would also be interested in information pertaining to the effects of > cemetery burning. It would seem logical to me that the long term effect > of burning in cemeteries may ultimately adversely impact the headstones. > > The variety of stone materials are already weathering at different rates > as a result of normal climate changes. It follows then that > artificially induced severe temperatures and the accelerated rate of > temperature change coupled with any chemical residues of burned material > may hasten deterioration. Or is there some evidence that the results of > burning tend to inhibit headstone weathering? This is an interesting > topic and one worthy of discussion by the members of this cemetery > preservation list. > > I recall once reading the cautionary statements on the use of cleaning > chemicals on marble and granite floor materials. I believe the > manufacturer advised against the use of any harsh cleaning fluids and > even heavily chlorinated waters? Surely there have been intensive > studies of similar materials utilized in the building or other > industries that could be utilized to compare and possibly predict the > long term effect burning activity may have on the stone materials found > in 19th century pioneer cemeteries? > > In this wacky world of ISO standards and extensive testing of > construction materials, I am confident that there have been copious > thermal tests conducted on these types of stone done by someone. > Indiana University is located right in the heart of "stone country" and > would be a good place to start an inquiry. > > I was hoping someone on the list would broach this subject from the > perspective of the possible effects on the headstone inscriptions. In > many cases, the stones in these early cemeteries offer a peek into the > pioneer history of the region not recorded elsewhere. If the carvings > are allowed to deteriorate beyond recognition (or if this process is > actually accelerated), we may be inadvertently increasing the loss of > valuable historical and genealogical information not found elsewhere. > > Thanks in advance for forwarding your information on this important > topic. > > Regards, > - > Rich Green > Historic Archaeological Research > 4338 Hadley Court > West Lafayette, IN 47906 > Office: (765) 464-8735 > Home: (765) 464-8095 > http://www.har-indy.com > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. >

I agree with Sue about Jack and his endeavors to do what he feels is right regarding the Barrens? Cemetery( and others as well)..I can't for the life of me help but feel there is an eighth of an acre somewhere in the same area that the DNR and Nat. Cons. could use as a plot to preserve native flora. Of all the land the Nat. Cons. owns ...I will reconsider when I choose /choose not to buy Enviornmental Plates for my vechicle and pay dues to the Nat. Cons..Both of which I have done for years....Ruth Pride Wheatland,Knox Co....

Hi Heather, I would also be interested in information pertaining to the effects of cemetery burning. It would seem logical to me that the long term effect of burning in cemeteries may ultimately adversely impact the headstones. The variety of stone materials are already weathering at different rates as a result of normal climate changes. It follows then that artificially induced severe temperatures and the accelerated rate of temperature change coupled with any chemical residues of burned material may hasten deterioration. Or is there some evidence that the results of burning tend to inhibit headstone weathering? This is an interesting topic and one worthy of discussion by the members of this cemetery preservation list. I recall once reading the cautionary statements on the use of cleaning chemicals on marble and granite floor materials. I believe the manufacturer advised against the use of any harsh cleaning fluids and even heavily chlorinated waters? Surely there have been intensive studies of similar materials utilized in the building or other industries that could be utilized to compare and possibly predict the long term effect burning activity may have on the stone materials found in 19th century pioneer cemeteries? In this wacky world of ISO standards and extensive testing of construction materials, I am confident that there have been copious thermal tests conducted on these types of stone done by someone. Indiana University is located right in the heart of "stone country" and would be a good place to start an inquiry. I was hoping someone on the list would broach this subject from the perspective of the possible effects on the headstone inscriptions. In many cases, the stones in these early cemeteries offer a peek into the pioneer history of the region not recorded elsewhere. If the carvings are allowed to deteriorate beyond recognition (or if this process is actually accelerated), we may be inadvertently increasing the loss of valuable historical and genealogical information not found elsewhere. Thanks in advance for forwarding your information on this important topic. Regards, - Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Home: (765) 464-8095 http://www.har-indy.com

rich- I am new to this list, so please let me know If I need to respond in a different way. I have become quite good at comprehensive literature reviews, and spend a lot of time in the library. It would be no problem to begin looking for lit., on this matter. I actually think it would be very interesting. I've worked on headstone restoration and epitaph preservation projects in the Anth,. dept., here at IUPUI. I think several people on faculty could be helpful. I know that cemetery burnings are controversial in many regards. However, I am a firm believer in preserving the environmental integrity of the landscape. Often, the landscape/geography of the cemetery is as contextually important as the markers and plots themselves. in many cases, burning is absolutely necessary to the regeneration of native grasses and flora. Smith cemetery is a perfect example. The fire(s) should be planned and supervised by qualified individuals, as to ensure that the fire is quick and safe. usually, the vegetation is low and not too thick. This prevents prolonged and extremely high temperature burns (which would increase the likelihood of damage). I'll begin to explore the literature on this topic and will share whatever I learn. Sincerely, Heather Wallace -----Original Message----- From: Rich Green [mailto:rgreen@nlci.com] Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 8:21 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [INPCRP] Effects of cemetery burning Hi Heather, I would also be interested in information pertaining to the effects of cemetery burning. It would seem logical to me that the long term effect of burning in cemeteries may ultimately adversely impact the headstones. The variety of stone materials are already weathering at different rates as a result of normal climate changes. It follows then that artificially induced severe temperatures and the accelerated rate of temperature change coupled with any chemical residues of burned material may hasten deterioration. Or is there some evidence that the results of burning tend to inhibit headstone weathering? This is an interesting topic and one worthy of discussion by the members of this cemetery preservation list. I recall once reading the cautionary statements on the use of cleaning chemicals on marble and granite floor materials. I believe the manufacturer advised against the use of any harsh cleaning fluids and even heavily chlorinated waters? Surely there have been intensive studies of similar materials utilized in the building or other industries that could be utilized to compare and possibly predict the long term effect burning activity may have on the stone materials found in 19th century pioneer cemeteries? In this wacky world of ISO standards and extensive testing of construction materials, I am confident that there have been copious thermal tests conducted on these types of stone done by someone. Indiana University is located right in the heart of "stone country" and would be a good place to start an inquiry. I was hoping someone on the list would broach this subject from the perspective of the possible effects on the headstone inscriptions. In many cases, the stones in these early cemeteries offer a peek into the pioneer history of the region not recorded elsewhere. If the carvings are allowed to deteriorate beyond recognition (or if this process is actually accelerated), we may be inadvertently increasing the loss of valuable historical and genealogical information not found elsewhere. Thanks in advance for forwarding your information on this important topic. Regards, - Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Home: (765) 464-8095 http://www.har-indy.com ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

Jack and others, The professor may be a plant expert, but what are his credentials in assessing the damage/non-damage to the stones? I'm sorry. There are thousands of acres of land that contain these plants. Let them go find a vacant piece to burn. Talk about putting the dead through Hell. Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 9:54 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Re: Cemetery Burning > In a message dated 4/4/02 8:00:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time, > Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov writes: > > > > Subj:RE: cemetery burning > > Date:4/4/02 8:00:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time > > From:<A HREF="mailto:Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov">Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov</A> > > To:<A HREF="mailto:Jb502000@aol.com">Jb502000@aol.com</A> > > Sent from the Internet > > > > > > > > Jack, > > > > No problem, please feel free to place my e-mail on the open discussion > > board. > > > > heather > > > > I forgot to include her permission to Post the Private E-Mail to Me. > Jack > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > If we cannot respect the dead, how can we respect the living? > >

Jack Briles, You have done a wonderful job with this cemetery! I know there are going to be some people who might object to your narrative, but I believe it is appropriate. While it is nice to give the "history" of a cemetery and it's occupants and community, when we encounter these places with their many problems and we take "ownership" as you have, I believe we have to tell it as it happened. This is also part of it's history. I also believe we have the right to opine our views on these situations. In a hundred years, I want people to know the disdain which those of us working to preserve these places today, felt at their condition and who allowed this to happen. You can all bet your last dollar that when we put together our reference book on El Dorado County's historic cemeteries, we're going to name names and dates and who we believe was at fault. And it's not going to just be "the County." It's going to be "who" at the County caused the problems and "who" at the County tried to correct the problems. And we're filing it with the California State Library, California History Room. Bill Spurlock - it would be nice if you could post Jack's link to his web page [http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/barrenscem.html] with the Endangered Cemetery report on the Saving Graves website. Maybe you could do it under the title UPDATE as of [date]: Those thousands of people who visit Saving Graves should be told and shown what is actually being done to save our nation's historic cemeteries. Thank you, Jack, for all your hard work on behalf of this cemetery. I think you would have done this even if you had no one buried there. That's just the kind of fella you are! Sue Silver El Dorado County Pioneer Cemeteries Commission California

In a message dated 4/4/02 8:00:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time, Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov writes: > Subj:RE: cemetery burning > Date:4/4/02 8:00:50 AM US Eastern Standard Time > From:<A HREF="mailto:Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov">Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov</A> > To:<A HREF="mailto:Jb502000@aol.com">Jb502000@aol.com</A> > Sent from the Internet > > > > Jack, > > No problem, please feel free to place my e-mail on the open discussion > board. > > heather > I forgot to include her permission to Post the Private E-Mail to Me. Jack

In a message dated 4/2/02 2:51:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Heather.Wallace@med.va.gov writes: > Mr. Briles: > > Allow me to take a moment to introduce myself...My name is Heather Wallace > and I am a sociology graduate student with a minor in Anthropology. I hope > to soon begin work towards a PhD in Human Geography. I recently became > aware of and very interesting the INPCRP. I subscribed, and have been > watching the dialogue concerning the burning of the St. Johns Lutheran > (barrens) Cemetery. A professor of mine has done a considerable amount of > research on the Smith cemetery in Fountain County. He is interested in it > primarily because it is one of the only pioneer cemeteries that is located > in what was once the "prairie wedge" that extended into Indiana. Every > year > it is burned (under the supervision of the Indiana Division of Nature > Preserves) for the soul purpose of maintaining native vegetation and > wildflowers. These grasses, flora, etc., can only reproduce after the > burning, as mowing alone actually serves as a detriment. Dr. Beck has > taken > great pains to monitor the conditions of the tombstones. Over the 15 years > he has been involved, no damage has occurred as a direct result of the > burnings. I contacted him concerning your cemetery and he would be happy to > provide you with any studies/information that he has. > > I hope this is helpful to you, and I am eager to become involved myself. > From what I have seen, I am impressed and encouraged by your group. You do > great work! > > Sincerely, > > Heather Wallace > > > Heather M. Wallace > Research Health Science Specialist > Roudebush VA Medical Center > Phone: 317/554-0000, ext. 4937 >

A small syntax problem with that URL. It should read: http://www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/barrenscem.html Later, - Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Home: (765) 464-8095 http://www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: <Jb502000@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 10:14 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Latest;St Johns Lutheran, (barrens) > If anyone is interested in the short story of St Johns and the Latest go to; > > www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/Barrenscem.html > > There are before and after pictures. Judge for yourself if there is a > difference Personally I feel like the effort was worth it. But Judge for > yourself. Some day you may have to decide your course of action. > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator > Po Box 444 > New Albany, Floyd Co. In. > 47151-0444 > E-mail jb502000@aol.com > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > >

If anyone is interested in the short story of St Johns and the Latest go to; www.rootsweb.com/~inpcrp/Barrenscem.html There are before and after pictures. Judge for yourself if there is a difference Personally I feel like the effort was worth it. But Judge for yourself. Some day you may have to decide your course of action. Jack E. Briles Sr. Floyd Co. PCRP Coordinator Po Box 444 New Albany, Floyd Co. In. 47151-0444 E-mail jb502000@aol.com