Brad here is one of my restorations that shows before and after. http://www.rootsweb.com/~intcpcrg/2002-Routh/0_ProgressPage.html Called the Routh family cemetery. I probably should go take better photos trying to show it from the same spot. I like this idea of showing both before and after. If you think about it. Most of the destruction or overgrowth happened before the trustees or folks now in charge of these cemeteries. I think someone said a few years ago that our cemeteries lost their glamour after the depression when money was real hard to find. Who knows, I think each one has a different story but we should show the positive side of all this to I inspire others to join us. Also, some of you really need to change the subject line when you change your whole thought of the message you reply to. Pretty please.....-) Think about trying to find this one later. It would be under the money raising subject line. Just wipe it out and change it to the current thought. L.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Manzenberger" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 11, 2004 2:56 AM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery > For the Hall of Fame the cemetery should have been restored as much as > possible or be in the process of being restored. It's mainly a way to show > the positive side instead of it always being negative. > > Brad > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joan Wray [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:18 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery > > > Brad: > > What do you need in order for a cemetery quality for the "Hall of Fame"? > > Joan Wray > Tipton County > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Theresa Berghoff" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 8:53 PM > Subject: RE: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery > > > Brad, > I'm glad you are ok with taking care of the website, being list > administrator, and media coordinator. You are doing a fantastic job! I > just > thought we should revisit the recommendations Lois made, so we could cover > everything, and not have anyone > get overwhelmed & burnt out. > I hope Angela Tielking will be the official spokesperson for > legislative issues. Angela,if you are out there, please think about it. > You > have done a great job so far. You have a good grasp of the issues, you are > very articulate, and when you speak people can tell your heart is in this > work. > >

Brad: It's always best to get permission, especially, as another post mentioned, if you disturb the ground to locate fragments of a buried stone, you're actually breaking Indiana law. At one time there was a sample permission slip floating around...and might actually be on the web page. As far as the personal property goes, that usually pertains to the actual person that purchased the stone. Many people don't realize that their homeowner's insurance will cover damage to a tombstone, but usually only one they purchased. As far as it covering a stone other than their own, no. Based on this, who has the right to authorize repairs to an ancestor's grave stone? Probably no one has more say than another relative...so it's first come, first served. I'm no attorney, so this is just my opinion and not based on any case law...and it's doubtful one exists. Kyle

No. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 11:35 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming Does every county in Indiana have a cemetery commission? ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Visit the INPCRP on the web at http://www.inpcrp.org

For the Hall of Fame the cemetery should have been restored as much as possible or be in the process of being restored. It's mainly a way to show the positive side instead of it always being negative. Brad -----Original Message----- From: Joan Wray [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 7:18 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery Brad: What do you need in order for a cemetery quality for the "Hall of Fame"? Joan Wray Tipton County ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 8:53 PM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery Brad, I'm glad you are ok with taking care of the website, being list administrator, and media coordinator. You are doing a fantastic job! I just thought we should revisit the recommendations Lois made, so we could cover everything, and not have anyone get overwhelmed & burnt out. I hope Angela Tielking will be the official spokesperson for legislative issues. Angela,if you are out there, please think about it. You have done a great job so far. You have a good grasp of the issues, you are very articulate, and when you speak people can tell your heart is in this work. Larry, Wow . You have put a lot of thought into the idea of certification.I will have to read your e-mail again to absorb it all. We have been down this road before. I remember there were some people who had been doing restoration for a long time who kind of took offense at the idea. In a way I understand that. I also know there are alot of people in this group who are very independent and some days not 3 of us could agree on a thing. You are however right about the need to be recognized as preservationist with some training and experience. And we don't want every Tom, Dick, & Harry out running around claiming to know how to restore tombstones & making a bigger mess. So I guess this needs more discussion. Are there any other states with certification? Does the Association for Gravestone Studies or the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training give anything to their workshop participants? Theresa Berghoff Brad Manzenberger <[email protected]> wrote: Lots of great ideas Theresa! As far as breaking down the state coordinator, I have no problem with the site, list admin and being the contact point for the media, etc. I think it would be better if someone else coordinated legislative and educational aspects of it. I can help, but I don't have the time to head them up. I am going to add the Hall of Fame to the site. Walt suggested it recently and it is a very good idea. We need to show the positive side of this so people in our communities can see that these places can be fixed. Hopefully that will generate more interest. There is not a main Hall of Fame main page yet- please stand by. I have placed one cemetery in the Hall of Fame- Spring Friends Cemetery in Hendricks Co. This is the cemetery Jessica Felix has her students working in. It can be accessed at http://www.inpcrp.org/HallofFame/hendricks_spring_friends.html. I have also added a page for Tipton Co. which can be accessed through the county coordinators page. Joan has sent me some more pictures and info that I will get posted soon. If you have any candidates for the Hall of Fame please send them to me, but be patient about getting them posted. I've had some free time and am taking advantage of the great weather to get some restoration work done in Franklin. Thanks, Brad -----Original Message----- From: Theresa Berghoff [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery I'm glad this calendar/ fund raising discussion has come round to the structure of the INPCRP. Some of us have been talking about this recently. While it would be nice to have money for cemetery projects, the structure needed for a 501c3 organization could be a burden and go against the grain of some of us independent minded preservationist. I do think that we need more structure than we have. We have made great strides this summer. Having Brad come on as webmaster & update the website has made a world of difference. When Lois resigned, she broke down the State Coordinators job description into 3 parts-webmaster- spokes person to do PR & work with the Legislature - list monitor. We need to think about where we want to go & what positions we need to get there .We have 2 new County coordinators, but most of the 92 counties are not covered. We need more visibility, that's what the t-shirts and requests for letters to legislators,and county prosecutors is about. Most of the state doesn't know we exist. Having some organization is helpful when we go to the Legislature. Education is needed in these areas: 1 cemetery care, maintenance, & repair guidelines for Township Trustees, Cemetery Associations & the people they hire. 2 preservation project guidelines for Boy Scout & Girl Scout Councils, schools ect. 3 cemetery visitation guides for libraries, & genealogy societies. 4 recording methods for County Recorders . 5 cemetery law for the general public Maybe we could joint venture some education material with the IN Township Association, IN Historical Society, Historic Landmarks Foundation, or DNR-DHPA. Other ideas I have heard: more workshops & work days more school projects like Rhonda Stoffer & Jessica Felix are doing work with the Ball State Landscape Architecture & Historic Preservation program meet with IN Prosecutors group create a Hall of Fame for restored cemeteries vandalism response info for cemeteries reunion for workshop people Scott talked about doing a book of restored cemeteries So what about any of this? Theresa ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is undisguised. This is a cemetery. "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

Does every county in Indiana have a cemetery commission?

Hello All: You know some of the cemeteries that we have worked in have stones that have been toppled over for over 75 years or maybe even more. Where have those families been that no care was given them? Even in the abandoned cemeteries the conditions are much the same. This would continue many more years if no one would volunteer to do these much needed repairs. I try first with the Township Trustee. Most are very glad to have us help because they are overloaded because of many years of neglect. Most say they do a few a year in hope somewhere down the line all will be done. Anyway, my point is, where have the relatives been that they are questioning a repair when they should have been looking after these stones. Joan ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming In a message dated 10/10/2004 7:33:30 AM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > So if the stones remain personal property of the family do we have to get > permission from the trustees, or owner to repair a family headstone? Does > this only apply to direct ancestors or do third cousins seven times removed > count? > > Brad > This group has always advocated getting a permission slip from the township trustee or cemetery board before beginning any work in these pioneer cemeteries. Many times there are no family members left to give this permission and since the trustee is responsible for maintaining public cemeteries, that's where the permission is obtained from. I only wanted to make the case that IF they did have this type of permission, which this group strongly supports, we should tread carefully in condemning them for messing with someone's ancestor's grave stone. The members of this list are continuously working on someone's ancestor's grave stones and have as much or little right to do so as anyone else. Obviously, the case against their technique is a whole separate issue. Kyle ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

Brad: What do you need in order for a cemetery quality for the "Hall of Fame"? Joan Wray Tipton County ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````` ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 8:53 PM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery Brad, I'm glad you are ok with taking care of the website, being list administrator, and media coordinator. You are doing a fantastic job! I just thought we should revisit the recommendations Lois made, so we could cover everything, and not have anyone get overwhelmed & burnt out. I hope Angela Tielking will be the official spokesperson for legislative issues. Angela,if you are out there, please think about it. You have done a great job so far. You have a good grasp of the issues, you are very articulate, and when you speak people can tell your heart is in this work. Larry, Wow . You have put a lot of thought into the idea of certification.I will have to read your e-mail again to absorb it all. We have been down this road before. I remember there were some people who had been doing restoration for a long time who kind of took offense at the idea. In a way I understand that. I also know there are alot of people in this group who are very independent and some days not 3 of us could agree on a thing. You are however right about the need to be recognized as preservationist with some training and experience. And we don't want every Tom, Dick, & Harry out running around claiming to know how to restore tombstones & making a bigger mess. So I guess this needs more discussion. Are there any other states with certification? Does the Association for Gravestone Studies or the National Center for Preservation Technology and Training give anything to their workshop participants? Theresa Berghoff Brad Manzenberger <[email protected]> wrote: Lots of great ideas Theresa! As far as breaking down the state coordinator, I have no problem with the site, list admin and being the contact point for the media, etc. I think it would be better if someone else coordinated legislative and educational aspects of it. I can help, but I don't have the time to head them up. I am going to add the Hall of Fame to the site. Walt suggested it recently and it is a very good idea. We need to show the positive side of this so people in our communities can see that these places can be fixed. Hopefully that will generate more interest. There is not a main Hall of Fame main page yet- please stand by. I have placed one cemetery in the Hall of Fame- Spring Friends Cemetery in Hendricks Co. This is the cemetery Jessica Felix has her students working in. It can be accessed at http://www.inpcrp.org/HallofFame/hendricks_spring_friends.html. I have also added a page for Tipton Co. which can be accessed through the county coordinators page. Joan has sent me some more pictures and info that I will get posted soon. If you have any candidates for the Hall of Fame please send them to me, but be patient about getting them posted. I've had some free time and am taking advantage of the great weather to get some restoration work done in Franklin. Thanks, Brad -----Original Message----- From: Theresa Berghoff [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, October 08, 2004 4:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] A novel way to raise money for a cemetery I'm glad this calendar/ fund raising discussion has come round to the structure of the INPCRP. Some of us have been talking about this recently. While it would be nice to have money for cemetery projects, the structure needed for a 501c3 organization could be a burden and go against the grain of some of us independent minded preservationist. I do think that we need more structure than we have. We have made great strides this summer. Having Brad come on as webmaster & update the website has made a world of difference. When Lois resigned, she broke down the State Coordinators job description into 3 parts-webmaster- spokes person to do PR & work with the Legislature - list monitor. We need to think about where we want to go & what positions we need to get there .We have 2 new County coordinators, but most of the 92 counties are not covered. We need more visibility, that's what the t-shirts and requests for letters to legislators,and county prosecutors is about. Most of the state doesn't know we exist. Having some organization is helpful when we go to the Legislature. Education is needed in these areas: 1 cemetery care, maintenance, & repair guidelines for Township Trustees, Cemetery Associations & the people they hire. 2 preservation project guidelines for Boy Scout & Girl Scout Councils, schools ect. 3 cemetery visitation guides for libraries, & genealogy societies. 4 recording methods for County Recorders . 5 cemetery law for the general public Maybe we could joint venture some education material with the IN Township Association, IN Historical Society, Historic Landmarks Foundation, or DNR-DHPA. Other ideas I have heard: more workshops & work days more school projects like Rhonda Stoffer & Jessica Felix are doing work with the Ball State Landscape Architecture & Historic Preservation program meet with IN Prosecutors group create a Hall of Fame for restored cemeteries vandalism response info for cemeteries reunion for workshop people Scott talked about doing a book of restored cemeteries So what about any of this? Theresa ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is undisguised. This is a cemetery. "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

Theresa: I also have noticed stones set in cement in many of the Tipton County cemeteries that we have been in. I wonder what type of guidance the Trustees have on making repairs or if they are on their own to do this? We also have had to take the cement off carefully and re-set many of the stones that were toppled along with their cement addition. Keep up the good work. Joan Wray Tipton County ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming Sue, I am trying to find out who is responsible for the cemetery and for setting the stone in concrete. It may have been another misguided relative who did it, with, or without permission. The stone is well over a 100 yrs old & if the concrete is set it's too late. I will contact the township trustee & the Co. cemetery commission Monday morning. I have been talking about the need for pamphlets for trustees, cemetery associations , Boy Scout Councils, schools, libraries,ect. We have to find a way to do this. Educating the general public about what not to do is as important as doing workshops.I am going ahead with my INPCRP business card idea. Theresa Sue Silver <[email protected]> wrote: It is my understanding that the gravestones in cemeteries are PERSONAL property, not the property of the cemetery operators/owners. WHO authorized this "repair" of your family member's stone? That would be my first question. The second question will be do they have insurance and, if not, how are they going to pay for repairing the damage they authorized to be done??? Everywhere I've gone in CA that they have someone in charge, they have always required that we have the permission of descendant family in order to repair stones. Maybe it's time for INPCRP to being to mail out info sheets to the Boy Scout Council's in the counties where the scouts work in cemeteries. There's enough published info out there that you could even ask the local libraries to place in their reference libraries. Maybe someone will find it and learn before they do... Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:44 PM Subject: [INPCRP] screaming > I just recieved an e-mail from a relative that a tombstone of our ancestor was found newly set in concrete in Bethel Cemetery, Wayne Twsp.(?), Hamilton Co. Does anyone know how long it takes the concrete to set. Could the stone still be removed without harming it if the concrete is still wet tomorrow? > > With the Boy Scout thing, the condition of Mt. Pleasant Cemetery in Jackson Twsp. and now this I am NOT happy with what is going on in Hamilton Co.I'm ready to go on the warpath with cemetery education. > Theresa > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

Brad: We did a family cemetery back in August. It was very overgrown and had groundhog holes. We went to the family that owns the cemetery and got permission to clear and repair the cemetery. It had 14 stones and 14 footstones, one of which was a Civil War veteran. When we finished, I mailed them a listing and placement of all the stones there and a cover letter telling them we were finished. This was the Turner Cemetery. Joan Wray Tipton County ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Manzenberger" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:33 AM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] screaming So if the stones remain personal property of the family do we have to get permission from the trustees, or owner to repair a family headstone? Does this only apply to direct ancestors or do third cousins seven times removed count? Brad -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 6:40 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming In a message dated 10/9/2004 9:16:32 PM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > It is my understanding that the gravestones in cemeteries are PERSONAL > property, not the property of the cemetery operators/owners. WHO authorized > this "repair" of your family member's stone? One must be careful with this issue, because if they did have permission from the cemetery board or trustee, then they went through the same proper channels that this group advocates and it would be counterproductive to be critical of that. If it was another relative, then they probably have as much right to as any other relative and just need to be informed of their improper method. Please don't think I'm defending them in any way, but I don't think it's fair for this group to be critical until we know more about the situation, which I'm sure Theresa will keep us posted on. Kyle ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals." ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Visit the INPCRP on the web at http://www.inpcrp.org

I went up to Bethel Cemetery ( highway 38 east of Noblesville) this morning. The concrete had been poured awhile ago, and is hard. It was a very messy job. I didn't know if this was done by the person recently cutting brush there or not. I heard back from my distant cousin tonight . He thinks it was done about 3 weeks ago. I think the church in the center of the cemetery was originally Methodist or Brethren. It now houses the Fellowship Baptist Church. They were having services this morning, so I couldn't talk to anyone. I will contact the Hamilton Co. Cemetery Commission to see who actually owns the property. (The imi gravel pit directly behind the church & cemetery has some sort of construction project going on. There is another cemetery to the west just outside their entrance.) If the church is responsible for the work in the cemetery, it may be time for an educational road show. Unfortunately. I will be out of town all week, but I will find out what is going on. Thanks everyone for your support, advice, and shared indignation. Theresa Joan Wray <[email protected]> wrote: Theresa: I also have noticed stones set in cement in many of the Tipton County cemeteries that we have been in. I wonder what type of guidance the Trustees have on making repairs or if they are on their own to do this? We also have had to take the cement off carefully and re-set many of the stones that were toppled along with their cement addition. Keep up the good work. Joan Wray Tipton County ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming Sue, I am trying to find out who is responsible for the cemetery and for setting the stone in concrete. It may have been another misguided relative who did it, with, or without permission. The stone is well over a 100 yrs old & if the concrete is set it's too late. I will contact the township trustee & the Co. cemetery commission Monday morning. I have been talking about the need for pamphlets for trustees, cemetery associations , Boy Scout Councils, schools, libraries,ect. We have to find a way to do this. Educating the general public about what not to do is as important as doing workshops.I am going ahead with my INPCRP business card idea. Theresa Sue Silver wrote: It is my understanding that the gravestones in cemeteries are PERSONAL property, not the property of the cemetery operators/owners. WHO authorized this "repair" of your family member's stone? That would be my first question. The second question will be do they have insurance and, if not, how are they going to pay for repairing the damage they authorized to be done??? Everywhere I've gone in CA that they have someone in charge, they have always required that we have the permission of descendant family in order to repair stones. Maybe it's time for INPCRP to being to mail out info sheets to the Boy Scout Council's in the counties where the scouts work in cemeteries. There's enough published info out there that you could even ask the local libraries to place in their reference libraries. Maybe someone will find it and learn before they do... Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" To: Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2004 7:44 PM Subject: [INPCRP] screaming > I just recieved an e-mail from a relative that a tombstone of our ancestor was found newly set in concrete in Bethel Cemetery, Wayne Twsp.(?), Hamilton Co. Does anyone know how long it takes the concrete to set. Could the stone still be removed without harming it if the concrete is still wet tomorrow? > > With the Boy Scout thing, the condition of Mt. Pleasant Cemetery in Jackson Twsp. and now this I am NOT happy with what is going on in Hamilton Co.I'm ready to go on the warpath with cemetery education. > Theresa > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!

Excellent Jack, I have a poor way of expressing myself, since I left out the bulk of what anyone would do (anyway) I don't claim to be the smartest on here and I am sure could be easily matched. On certification, I think that is more of an issue with those that earn money or a living from gravestone repair (my word) than those that don't. I very, very seriously doubt there is anyone in this state that is qualified to "certify" anyone. I don't have the answers, but sometimes it goes far beyond the actual need. You get ego's and reputations mixed up and everyone gets mad, for no good reason that has anything to do with the dead and their memory. Lee Creed

In a message dated 10/10/04 12:28:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > Even if its not, you can cut diagonally from the corners to the stone Lee, The weakest points are straight across on both side from the stone. I would dig down all around the "concrete" so their would be no resistance to any hammer blows. If it is dug out the cement should separate very easily when struck in an outward manner, with the force of the blows away from the stone using around a 3 lb. Mash hammer, not a claw hammer, it will only bounce, work back and forth, first on one side, then the other and it will slowly begin to crack. DIG IT OUT AROUND THE CEMENT FIRST.!! Jack E. Briles Sr.

In a message dated 10/9/04 11:27:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > -Certified Restorationist's: > I like the idea of this in general but I think it needs much discussion > first. > > The first thing I'll say about this is KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF IT! If you > want something to fail... > > Brad, As was stated earlier, get the DNR involved. The DNR is the one bunch you don't want involved in any way with the certification of the Restorationist. A Prime example of DNR involvement is the Horrendous example of their approved restoration at the Cemetery at Spring Mill State Park. If you have never seen their repairs, it would be worth a trip to the cemetery to look for yourself. I have photos somewhere, if I can find them I will send you personally a copy. They were not straightened up, only propped up with pieces of field stone laid behind the Tombstones for support. If any of us did the repairs, we would be advised to leave the repairs to others. I think the majority of us know a good repair job from a bad one and are capable of making out a Certification Form, and having selected Listers sign of on certification. We do the work, lets monitor ourselves. Why do we need some else to tell us when we are doing a good job, ?? Why should we do the volunteer work, and others go along for the free ride. Don't we know better than an outside group. If not, why do we attend our own seminars. Just my 2 cents worth. The more opinions we have, the sooner we will arrive at a valid conclusion. Jack E. Briles, Sr. New Albany, Floyd Co. In.

After seeing the photo of the website I think the stone was set by the G.O.B(GOOD OLD BOY) cemetery patrol and their bag of Quickrete...I know the Ham Co Cemetery Commission wouldnt approve of that cobbled up mess. Mark Original Message: ----------------- From: Pam Arnold [email protected] Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2004 10:23:37 -0400 To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [INPCRP] screaming Hamilton Co Concrete Mark Why is this? Can't 'you' get through to them? How can we correct the Commission's misconception on caring for these graves? Pam Arnold > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [INPCRP] screaming > > > > Better check with Hamilton Co Cemetery Commission. I can take you to a > couple of cemeteries under their care and show you rivers of concrete that > have been poured. > > Mark Davis > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > is the INPCRP State Coordinator. Feel free to contact him directly regarding questions or comments you may have about the INPCRP. -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Mark Why is this? Can't 'you' get through to them? How can we correct the Commission's misconception on caring for these graves? Pam Arnold > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 8:34 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: RE: [INPCRP] screaming > > > > Better check with Hamilton Co Cemetery Commission. I can take you to a > couple of cemeteries under their care and show you rivers of concrete that > have been poured. > > Mark Davis > > > >

In a message dated 10/10/2004 7:33:30 AM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > So if the stones remain personal property of the family do we have to get > permission from the trustees, or owner to repair a family headstone? Does > this only apply to direct ancestors or do third cousins seven times removed > count? > > Brad > This group has always advocated getting a permission slip from the township trustee or cemetery board before beginning any work in these pioneer cemeteries. Many times there are no family members left to give this permission and since the trustee is responsible for maintaining public cemeteries, that's where the permission is obtained from. I only wanted to make the case that IF they did have this type of permission, which this group strongly supports, we should tread carefully in condemning them for messing with someone's ancestor's grave stone. The members of this list are continuously working on someone's ancestor's grave stones and have as much or little right to do so as anyone else. Obviously, the case against their technique is a whole separate issue. Kyle

Kyle, Actually I was curious because I have some family markers in a few locations that need some work. Do I have to get permission or do I just need to notify? I understand that it would probably be better to get permission from the responsible party. But if they are reluctant or unwilling, do I have the right to reset my gggg-grandfather's obelisk or whatever the case may be? Brad -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2004 9:10 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] screaming In a message dated 10/10/2004 7:33:30 AM Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > So if the stones remain personal property of the family do we have to get > permission from the trustees, or owner to repair a family headstone? Does > this only apply to direct ancestors or do third cousins seven times removed > count? > > Brad > This group has always advocated getting a permission slip from the township trustee or cemetery board before beginning any work in these pioneer cemeteries. Many times there are no family members left to give this permission and since the trustee is responsible for maintaining public cemeteries, that's where the permission is obtained from. I only wanted to make the case that IF they did have this type of permission, which this group strongly supports, we should tread carefully in condemning them for messing with someone's ancestor's grave stone. The members of this list are continuously working on someone's ancestor's grave stones and have as much or little right to do so as anyone else. Obviously, the case against their technique is a whole separate issue. Kyle ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

Theresa, theres nothing I can do that you can't, or that you can't do better yourself. I don't claim any special knowledge, especially after the last few weeks. People need to balance their knowledge, along with their experience, and not have a judgement or answer for everything. If you hear someone say they just don't know for sure, then they realize their own limitations, I am very much aware of mine. Lee Creed

Indeed you're right there Kyle. I got to hack away at a tombstone for two days, because originally the "overnight" success story tombstone expert thought I had worked on her ancestors tombstone. I hold no grudge against her (really is a nice lady), but getting through to her was another matter. Her new found knowledge also crossed over into the land of arrogance and assumption. Lee Creed

That is fantastic! Keep up the good work and keep us informed! Walt