Hello the list, Seems you have multiple debates going on in the same thread. It might be better to discuss and resolve these one at a time. It is my understanding that the probing question, and in fact any ground disturbance within 100-feet of cemeteries, has already been asked and adequately answered. In Indiana, the Trustees are the custodians of cemeteries in their respective townships. There may be other entities (Cemetery Boards or Foundations) that are also considered the legal custodians of a cemetery; however, for the most part this responsibility falls on the Township Trustee. As such, the Trustee is responsible for, among other things, grounds keeping and cemetery monument maintenance. These duties often necessitate ground disturbance within a cemetery; particularly when the cemetery is still active, landscaping is necessary or when monuments have been toppled either by forces of nature or vandalism. Probing for and excavating base and foot stones that have somehow been obscured is all part of this process, and is NOT in any way illegal if undertaken by cemetery custodian(s). It is also understood that a Township Trustee or other legal custodian may contract to have this work done, and may provide cemetery restoration specialists (of their discretion) with written permission to carry out necessary repairs including any that may require ground disturbance. It follows then that probing or ground disturbance in cemeteries is only illegal if undertaken without the expressed permission of the custodian of the property. The probing issue then seems cut and dried. If you don't have written permission to be disturbing cemetery grounds, you are probably ill-advised to be doing so in the first place and there is a state regulation in place for those who neglect or otherwise refuse to get permission. I'm sure that there will be some exceptions to this interpretation...there always is, but the question of probing and other ground disturbance as a function of cemetery restoration activities is most certainly addressed by getting permission from the proper authorities in the first place. Regards to all, Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Mobile: (765) 427-4082 www.har-indy.com

I'm sorry, but I still think this law is being mis-applied to grave markers and cemeteries as we know them, and was written and intended to protect prehistoric and native americian burial grounds. Headstones, footstones and bases have absolutely nothing to do with the intent of the law, which was written to keep people from going out and digging up mounds in search of indian relics. The law was written around the time of the expansion of the GE Plastics Division plant at Mount Vernon IN where prehistoric burial mounds were discovered during construction. Several people went in and dug up a large collection of artifacts before State archelogists had a chance to do a proper "dig", and these valuable artifacts ended up in private collections, antique shops and flea markets. By the time State or Indiana University teams got to the site many of the artifacts were long gone. The law was written to stop or control prehistoric digs and has nothing to do with searching for gravestones! See : NAWROCKI, Stephen. "Bioarcheology and Forensics in Indiana, 1991-1995." (excerpt) Between October 1991 and April 1995, a total of 60 cases had been received and processed, representing most of the skeletal recoveries made in Indiana in that time period. Eight of these turned out to be non-human and 7 were simple donations of human skeletal materials, leaving 45 human remains cases requiring analysis. Of these 45, 24 were accidental archeological discoveries from prehistoric (16 sites with 75+ individuals) or historic (8 sites with 35+ individuals) contexts, falling under the purview of the State Archeologist and the Indiana Department of Natural Resources. Examples include an Archaic period rockshelter burial, modified human trophy mandibles from the Mount Vernon ("General Electric") Hopewell mound, a number of isolated Woodland burials (one of which was eaten by the finder's year-old Dalmatian, complicating the analysis somewhat), a number of isolated historic coffin burials, and a heavily disturbed collection of "repatriated" historic cemetery remains. At least a few of these cases were discovered after illegal looting activities. Also, References Beard, T. C., 1997. The Mound. In Hopewell in Mt. Vernon: A Study of the Mt. Vernon Site, pp.1–9. Project report produced by the General Electric Company. Munson, C. A., M. M. Jones, and R. E. Fry, 1995. The GE Mound: An ARPA Case Study. American Antiquity 60:131-159. From the National Register of Historic Places: Mount Vernon Site (added 1996 - Site - #95001542) Also known as GE Mount;12Po885 and IDOH Site No. 65-30 Address Restricted, Mount Vernon Historic Significance: Information Potential Area of Significance: Prehistoric Cultural Affiliation: Middle Woodland Hopewell, Mann Phase Period of Significance: 499-0 AD Owner: Private Historic Function: Funerary, Religion Historic Sub-function: Ceremonial Site, Graves/Burials Current Function: Industry/Processing/Extraction, Landscape Current Sub-function: Forest, Manufacturing Facility, Unoccupied Land > >IC 14-21-1-26 >Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial >objects >Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering >artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by >the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 >(before its repeal). >(b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this >section commits a Class A misdemeanor. >As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. >

Angela wrote: My only fear is that you'll get these loony-tunes out there who are grave robbers and all they have to say is, "Well I am just trying to restore the cemetery!" and get off the hook. That is why I like the probing permit idea better. The permit would collect your personal information so if the probing was abused they would know who to look for. Brad: First, if we have signed permission slips from the trustee or property owner that should suffice to show that we truly are restoring the cemetery and can be used to hold us accountable if we abused the cemetery. Second, the cops I know are not stupid and could easily determine between a genuine restorer and a thief. Angela: I like it going through the DNR-DHPA because, hopefully, Jeannie would be the one to issue the permits, and she knows who the genuine people are who are trying to restore these cemeteries. She knows US. I know several on this list that can't stand the DNR, but for this cemetery thing to work, we have got to learn to work together. Brad: Granted, Jeannie knows us, but not everyone that restores a cemetery is going to have a connection to the INPCRP. I have no problem with the DNR itself, my problem is the government in general. There's too much of it and I see no reason to add any more if not absolutely necessary. A probing permit may not seem like a lot, but it's just one more thing on top of one more thing. I for one am tired of having to ask Big Government for permission to do just about everything. Angela: I agree with Mark Kreps. I too worry about being "caught" doing "you-know-what". I don't have so much as a speeding ticket. I sure don't want to have a misdemeanor on my record. All it would take is some noisy passer-by to see me probing and trying to extract a headstone out of the ground for restoration and call the cops on me for graverobbing. Do you think a cop is educated about the work we do in cemeteries? How is he/she going to know that I am restoring a cemetery vs. graverobbing? I agree with Lee though that most of the cops won't care. I make sure I have a signed permission slip with me from the property owner/township trustee before working - just in case. Brad: I guess this is all in your perspective. I know, if necessary, I would take the hit for the cause and if going to jail is what it takes to make the point and get the law fixed then so be it. I'd rather not, but... I know I am not the only one on this list that would do this if necessary because I have had this conversation with one of them. I'm not trying to take away anything from anyone who feels differently, we all have our unique abilities and fighting the law is one of mine. ;) I don't want to assume how many cops are educated about the work we do, but I think that once they talk to you and actually see what you're doing they'll go on about their business of chasing real criminals. Most grave robbers aren't going to show up with the kind of equipment that we do. I'm not condoning breaking the law, I think the law needs to be changed and there is more than one way to do that and I'd prefer to take the path of least resistance first, that is, lobby the General Assembly to change it. The current laws were never meant to get in the way of actual restoration/preservation. In the mean time there are still thousands of headstones buried beneath Hoosier soil that need to be found. How long would it take the government to change the law, adding a permit clause to it, and then actually put it into practice? Though the cost would be relatively small, permits issued by DNR would add more to the expenses of that department and take up the time of the already understaffed crew at DHPA. Just my 2 cents worth. Brad

Good question, Brad, but I don't know. Anything that doesn't have a negative fiscal impact on the State has a better chance of being accepted. My only fear is that you'll get these loony-tunes out there who are grave robbers and all they have to say is, "Well I am just trying to restore the cemetery!" and get off the hook. That is why I like the probing permit idea better. The permit would collect your personal information so if the probing was abused they would know who to look for. I like it going through the DNR-DHPA because, hopefully, Jeannie would be the one to issue the permits, and she knows who the genuine people are who are trying to restore these cemeteries. She knows US. I know several on this list that can't stand the DNR, but for this cemetery thing to work, we have got to learn to work together. I agree with Mark Kreps. I too worry about being "caught" doing "you-know-what". I don't have so much as a speeding ticket. I sure don't want to have a misdemeanor on my record. All it would take is some noisy passer-by to see me probing and trying to extract a headstone out of the ground for restoration and call the cops on me for graverobbing. Do you think a cop is educated about the work we do in cemeteries? How is he/she going to know that I am restoring a cemetery vs. graverobbing? I agree with Lee though that most of the cops won't care. I make sure I have a signed permission slip with me from the property owner/township trustee before working - just in case. The last thing I want to do is scare anybody about probing. I know this is a delicate issue, but I thought this list was designed to discuss ideas between people who care about our cemeteries. I don't care whether you agree with the idea or not, I am just glad to see discussion to try to make what we do better. I also agree with Larry Tippin on the certification program. I know we are in the minority, but I think we have got to set standards in professional cemetery restoration. Anybody can go out there right now and claim they are a professional cemetery restorationist; and they can do irreparable damage to these one-of-a-kind markers. The thought makes me cringe. Angela Tielking ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Manzenberger" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] probing > How much resistance would we get if we tried to insert the phrase "cemetery > restoration shall be exempt" into the law. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Tielking [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 10:57 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] probing > > Jack and Mark, > > I was always told that probing is illegal. Period. I was also told that the > DNR didn't want to know about it if we were probing. I have also heard that > getting permission from the township trustee was fine too. I think it would > be all quite simple if we could just get a permit to probe so that we are > legal. It takes the guesswork out of it, and then we don't have to worry > about it. > > As for saying that "probing for 'artifacts' implies that you want it for > personal use.etc.." that is an interpretation of the law. We either need > legislation or a permit that gives us legal authority to probe - it needs to > be that cut and dry. So I understand Mark's feelings about probing in front > of 100's of people drivng by. > > Angela Tielking > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:07 AM > Subject: [INPCRP] (no subject) > > > > > > We have been thru this before. Probing for "Artifacts' implies that > > you want it for your personal use, or swap meet, or sell to someone. We > Probe > > down here in Floyd County to find the "Broken Pieces" only to repair a > stone, or > > stones and for no other reason. We were told if we had a letter from the > Twp. > > Trustee to find and repair the stones we were covered legally. That is > > because the Trustee is Responsible for the cemeteries and their condition > and they > > certainly cant find the time to do the job themselves, so they must > designate a > > responsible party to do it for them. > > > > It's for darn sure If members of the INPCRP cant probe, who > else > > knows enough about the care necessary to do it safely. I pointed out that > if > > I cant Probe, and have to submit a probing plan every time I work on a > > cemetery, then My volunteering is over and the cemeteries I have found can > go back > > to their former state. You should know how to be careful probing, and > digging > > around the piece, or pieces so as not to further damage them. If you don't > > know, then you should accompany someone from the INPCRP and learn. > > > > I probed for broken pieces in California and started when I came > back > > to Indiana late 1995. I feel I know how by now. Its for darn sure just > anyone > > cant take a probe and a shovel out and start. They need guidance. You can > do > > as you wish about "Probing," I don't know how much you know about it. I > have > > stopped people who came out and was going to help me. I told them that if > they > > wanted to learn, work with me and help until I was satisfied they knew > what > > they were doing. > > Some wont agree with me, but one thing is for sure, you cant just start. > > Really, the Legislature needs more protection laws for our cemeteries than > just > > "Probing". > > > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > > Floyd Co. Cord. INPCRP > > Po Box 444 > > New Albany, In 47151-0444 > > > > > > > > > > IC 14-21-1-26 > > Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial > > objects > > Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of > discovering > > artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved > by > > the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 > > (before its repeal). > > (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this > > section commits a Class A misdemeanor. > > As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. > > > > > > > > > > Jack > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname > and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a > better venue. > > Thank you. > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > > http://www.inpcrp.org > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) >

Angela has helped to clarify what I am seeking, "legal authority to probe" which should be goal of all. Hopefully the DNR will give the INPCRP and township trustees the same information so we might all be on the same page in Indiana when it comes to probing. It is my desire to do all cemetery work carefully and properly. When doing so we should be honored and respected. I shouldn't feel as if I'm doing something illegal, be trained to do something illegal or show others probing and in the process contribute to perpetuating the issue. Mark Kreps Muncie, IN [email protected] -------Original Message------- From: [email protected] Date: Saturday, October 23, 2004 11:07:52 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] probing Jack and Mark, I was always told that probing is illegal. Period. I was also told that the DNR didn't want to know about it if we were probing. I have also heard that getting permission from the township trustee was fine too. I think it would be all quite simple if we could just get a permit to probe so that we are legal. It takes the guesswork out of it, and then we don't have to worry about it. As for saying that "probing for 'artifacts' implies that you want it for personal use.etc.." that is an interpretation of the law. We either need legislation or a permit that gives us legal authority to probe - it needs to be that cut and dry. So I understand Mark's feelings about probing in front of 100's of people drivng by. Angela Tielking ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:07 AM Subject: [INPCRP] (no subject) > > We have been thru this before. Probing for "Artifacts' implies that > you want it for your personal use, or swap meet, or sell to someone. We Probe > down here in Floyd County to find the "Broken Pieces" only to repair a stone, or > stones and for no other reason. We were told if we had a letter from the Twp. > Trustee to find and repair the stones we were covered legally. That is > because the Trustee is Responsible for the cemeteries and their condition and they > certainly cant find the time to do the job themselves, so they must designate a > responsible party to do it for them. > > It's for darn sure If members of the INPCRP cant probe, who else > knows enough about the care necessary to do it safely. I pointed out that if > I cant Probe, and have to submit a probing plan every time I work on a > cemetery, then My volunteering is over and the cemeteries I have found can go back > to their former state. You should know how to be careful probing, and digging > around the piece, or pieces so as not to further damage them. If you don't > know, then you should accompany someone from the INPCRP and learn. > > I probed for broken pieces in California and started when I came back > to Indiana late 1995. I feel I know how by now. Its for darn sure just anyone > cant take a probe and a shovel out and start. They need guidance. You can do > as you wish about "Probing," I don't know how much you know about it. I have > stopped people who came out and was going to help me. I told them that if they > wanted to learn, work with me and help until I was satisfied they knew what > they were doing. > Some wont agree with me, but one thing is for sure, you cant just start. > Really, the Legislature needs more protection laws for our cemeteries than just > "Probing". > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Floyd Co. Cord. INPCRP > Po Box 444 > New Albany, In 47151-0444 > > > > > IC 14-21-1-26 > Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial > objects > Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering > artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by > the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 > (before its repeal). > (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this > section commits a Class A misdemeanor. > As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. > > > > > Jack > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. > Thank you. > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org .

I have been following the issue of probing. The laws have been strengthened over the last several years to lessen the chance of cemetery mischief. This is of course a good thing. But the dedicated cemetery restorationist/preservationists are not considered in the current law. Maybe if the law is revisited, we can try to get language to specifically allow for legitimate restoration work. This sort of thing is one of the ideas I was trying to stress a few weeks ago with the idea of some sort of certification, recoginition, etc., of those qualified to restore the cemeteries. I still think the idea is worthy of discussion. And I didn't mean to imply we would seek government involvement. I would prefer we have a recognized oversight body from within our group (LA for instance) that could write the rules for do's and dont's. And that group instill some sort of certification or recognition program that would recognize the individuals that have attained the requisite skills in cemetery restoration. I think it would really help if the law allowed for restoration work done by, or under the supervision of, a certified, recognized, etc., individual, while still retaining the current provisions for prosecution for mischief. Maybe a certification, recognition, etc., could be provided to the county cemetery board, for the counties that have one, for their endorsement? And the only government involvement I was implying was for DNR or whoever to recognize that restoration done by a certified/recognized individual or group. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to put a sign up saying something like "This cemetery is being restored by ____, certified by ____, with the permission of (a) the __ county cemetery board (b) ___ township trustee, or (c) owner." Has anyone had a heart to heart talk to their county prosecutor? Would it be possible to explain the work you are doing up front to avoid the chance of possible prosecution? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Kreps" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 11:32 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Re: probing > The issue of probing was brought up at the Cemetery Preservation Committee > of the Delaware Co. Historical Society on10/22/04. "When Mark Kreps and Bob > Good went for training they understood that it took a permit from the state > before probing could proceed in a cemetery." Is that correct? > My understanding is that the property owner or Township Trustee must approve > probing before it occurs. But now a new (to my knowledge) step of approval > as I understand the probing issue needs to be processed through the DNR. > Perhaps Jeannie Dinius-Regan of the DNR could provide some guidance in this > area. Someone told me that DNR still wouldn't approve probing but I never > found out why. The reason I am asking is that the Delaware County > Preservation folks are considering improving/preserving a cemetery in Muncie > that has over half of the stones submerged in the ground or missing > (according to a 1940 reading). It is on a main thoroughfare in Muncie, > literally hundreds of people driving by. I don't want any trouble, a bad > name, jail time or prison record because someone calls the police, the > prosecutor finds the issue to his interest to prosecute someone probing even > though the local Township Trustee supports the probing. I am rethinking the > probing issue according to the Indiana law (see below) and the possibility > of probing and disturbing, in some minds, being the same thing. I don't mind > turning over a plan to the state. Simply let me know the process and how and > where to file "the plan." > > > IC 14-21-1-26 > Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial > objects > Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering > artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by > the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 > (before its repeal). > (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this > section commits a Class A misdemeanor. > As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England > and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > >

Has anyone been charged under this law yet ? I doubt it. While I am not an expert on the cemetery side of it, I am fully qualified on the other. I just don't see it happening, DNR is likely the enforcement arm of it, and they can't even protect the cemeteries being plowed or have been plowed up. No DNR officer I know is aware of this law (and when told, have no interest in enforcement) I think there are other bigger issues to worry about. I would doubt one in 50 car occupants even notice you are there "probing" and and one in a few hundred have the faintest clue. The bottom line is that you have to probe to get the job done, a strict interpretation of the law is not going to help. Lee Creed

How much resistance would we get if we tried to insert the phrase "cemetery restoration shall be exempt" into the law. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Tielking [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 10:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [INPCRP] probing Jack and Mark, I was always told that probing is illegal. Period. I was also told that the DNR didn't want to know about it if we were probing. I have also heard that getting permission from the township trustee was fine too. I think it would be all quite simple if we could just get a permit to probe so that we are legal. It takes the guesswork out of it, and then we don't have to worry about it. As for saying that "probing for 'artifacts' implies that you want it for personal use.etc.." that is an interpretation of the law. We either need legislation or a permit that gives us legal authority to probe - it needs to be that cut and dry. So I understand Mark's feelings about probing in front of 100's of people drivng by. Angela Tielking ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:07 AM Subject: [INPCRP] (no subject) > > We have been thru this before. Probing for "Artifacts' implies that > you want it for your personal use, or swap meet, or sell to someone. We Probe > down here in Floyd County to find the "Broken Pieces" only to repair a stone, or > stones and for no other reason. We were told if we had a letter from the Twp. > Trustee to find and repair the stones we were covered legally. That is > because the Trustee is Responsible for the cemeteries and their condition and they > certainly cant find the time to do the job themselves, so they must designate a > responsible party to do it for them. > > It's for darn sure If members of the INPCRP cant probe, who else > knows enough about the care necessary to do it safely. I pointed out that if > I cant Probe, and have to submit a probing plan every time I work on a > cemetery, then My volunteering is over and the cemeteries I have found can go back > to their former state. You should know how to be careful probing, and digging > around the piece, or pieces so as not to further damage them. If you don't > know, then you should accompany someone from the INPCRP and learn. > > I probed for broken pieces in California and started when I came back > to Indiana late 1995. I feel I know how by now. Its for darn sure just anyone > cant take a probe and a shovel out and start. They need guidance. You can do > as you wish about "Probing," I don't know how much you know about it. I have > stopped people who came out and was going to help me. I told them that if they > wanted to learn, work with me and help until I was satisfied they knew what > they were doing. > Some wont agree with me, but one thing is for sure, you cant just start. > Really, the Legislature needs more protection laws for our cemeteries than just > "Probing". > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Floyd Co. Cord. INPCRP > Po Box 444 > New Albany, In 47151-0444 > > > > > IC 14-21-1-26 > Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial > objects > Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering > artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by > the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 > (before its repeal). > (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this > section commits a Class A misdemeanor. > As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. > > > > > Jack > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. > Thank you. > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

Jack and Mark, I was always told that probing is illegal. Period. I was also told that the DNR didn't want to know about it if we were probing. I have also heard that getting permission from the township trustee was fine too. I think it would be all quite simple if we could just get a permit to probe so that we are legal. It takes the guesswork out of it, and then we don't have to worry about it. As for saying that "probing for 'artifacts' implies that you want it for personal use.etc.." that is an interpretation of the law. We either need legislation or a permit that gives us legal authority to probe - it needs to be that cut and dry. So I understand Mark's feelings about probing in front of 100's of people drivng by. Angela Tielking ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, October 23, 2004 1:07 AM Subject: [INPCRP] (no subject) > > We have been thru this before. Probing for "Artifacts' implies that > you want it for your personal use, or swap meet, or sell to someone. We Probe > down here in Floyd County to find the "Broken Pieces" only to repair a stone, or > stones and for no other reason. We were told if we had a letter from the Twp. > Trustee to find and repair the stones we were covered legally. That is > because the Trustee is Responsible for the cemeteries and their condition and they > certainly cant find the time to do the job themselves, so they must designate a > responsible party to do it for them. > > It's for darn sure If members of the INPCRP cant probe, who else > knows enough about the care necessary to do it safely. I pointed out that if > I cant Probe, and have to submit a probing plan every time I work on a > cemetery, then My volunteering is over and the cemeteries I have found can go back > to their former state. You should know how to be careful probing, and digging > around the piece, or pieces so as not to further damage them. If you don't > know, then you should accompany someone from the INPCRP and learn. > > I probed for broken pieces in California and started when I came back > to Indiana late 1995. I feel I know how by now. Its for darn sure just anyone > cant take a probe and a shovel out and start. They need guidance. You can do > as you wish about "Probing," I don't know how much you know about it. I have > stopped people who came out and was going to help me. I told them that if they > wanted to learn, work with me and help until I was satisfied they knew what > they were doing. > Some wont agree with me, but one thing is for sure, you cant just start. > Really, the Legislature needs more protection laws for our cemeteries than just > "Probing". > > Jack E. Briles Sr. > Floyd Co. Cord. INPCRP > Po Box 444 > New Albany, In 47151-0444 > > > > > IC 14-21-1-26 > Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial > objects > Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering > artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by > the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 > (before its repeal). > (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this > section commits a Class A misdemeanor. > As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. > > > > > Jack > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. > Thank you. >

Jack very accurately answered your question. I would only add...the more you can keep the DNR out of it, the better off you are. Kyle D. Conrad Brook, IN

We have been thru this before. Probing for "Artifacts' implies that you want it for your personal use, or swap meet, or sell to someone. We Probe down here in Floyd County to find the "Broken Pieces" only to repair a stone, or stones and for no other reason. We were told if we had a letter from the Twp. Trustee to find and repair the stones we were covered legally. That is because the Trustee is Responsible for the cemeteries and their condition and they certainly cant find the time to do the job themselves, so they must designate a responsible party to do it for them. It's for darn sure If members of the INPCRP cant probe, who else knows enough about the care necessary to do it safely. I pointed out that if I cant Probe, and have to submit a probing plan every time I work on a cemetery, then My volunteering is over and the cemeteries I have found can go back to their former state. You should know how to be careful probing, and digging around the piece, or pieces so as not to further damage them. If you don't know, then you should accompany someone from the INPCRP and learn. I probed for broken pieces in California and started when I came back to Indiana late 1995. I feel I know how by now. Its for darn sure just anyone cant take a probe and a shovel out and start. They need guidance. You can do as you wish about "Probing," I don't know how much you know about it. I have stopped people who came out and was going to help me. I told them that if they wanted to learn, work with me and help until I was satisfied they knew what they were doing. Some wont agree with me, but one thing is for sure, you cant just start. Really, the Legislature needs more protection laws for our cemeteries than just "Probing". Jack E. Briles Sr. Floyd Co. Cord. INPCRP Po Box 444 New Albany, In 47151-0444 IC 14-21-1-26 Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial objects Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 (before its repeal). (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this section commits a Class A misdemeanor. As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14. Jack

The issue of probing was brought up at the Cemetery Preservation Committee of the Delaware Co. Historical Society on10/22/04. "When Mark Kreps and Bob Good went for training they understood that it took a permit from the state before probing could proceed in a cemetery." Is that correct? My understanding is that the property owner or Township Trustee must approve probing before it occurs. But now a new (to my knowledge) step of approval as I understand the probing issue needs to be processed through the DNR. Perhaps Jeannie Dinius-Regan of the DNR could provide some guidance in this area. Someone told me that DNR still wouldn't approve probing but I never found out why. The reason I am asking is that the Delaware County Preservation folks are considering improving/preserving a cemetery in Muncie that has over half of the stones submerged in the ground or missing (according to a 1940 reading). It is on a main thoroughfare in Muncie, literally hundreds of people driving by. I don't want any trouble, a bad name, jail time or prison record because someone calls the police, the prosecutor finds the issue to his interest to prosecute someone probing even though the local Township Trustee supports the probing. I am rethinking the probing issue according to the Indiana law (see below) and the possibility of probing and disturbing, in some minds, being the same thing. I don't mind turning over a plan to the state. Simply let me know the process and how and where to file "the plan." IC 14-21-1-26 Disturbance of grounds for purpose of discovering artifacts or burial objects Sec. 26. (a) A person who disturbs the ground for the purpose of discovering artifacts or burial objects must do so in accordance with a plan approved by the department under section 25 of this chapter or under IC 14-3-3.4-14 (before its repeal). (b) A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally violates this section commits a Class A misdemeanor. As added by P.L.1-1995, SEC.14.

All good questions, Theresa. Your questions should be posed to Mayor Bart. I wonder if he has even thought about the cemeteries, and what impact of removing the township trustees would do to them. Angela Tielking ----- Original Message ----- From: "Theresa Berghoff" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, October 22, 2004 1:16 AM Subject: [INPCRP] Indy Works proposal > On page 35 of the Indy Works proposal, Township Cemeteries are listed as a residual function. Item 2 under Solutions states their maintenance will transfer to the Dept. of Public Works and/or Indy Parks. Most of the cemeteries under Township care are historic cemeteries of the pioneer period. What training will DPW or Indy Parks have to repair, preserve, and maintain these cemeteries? How will the recently restored Washington Township Cemeteries be maintained ? Will money be added to the DPW and/or Indy Parks budgets for their care? Will Marion County establish a Cemetery Commission to make sure these historic cemeteries don't fall through the cracks of the UNIGOV system? > > Theresa Berghoff > Marion County Resident and member of the > Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) >

Theresa, Is this a new proposal? What is the status of the proposal? Is there an approval or rejection required? Who has to approve or reject the proposal? Would you expect there to be an impact on the incomplete restoration efforts at the Vansickle Cemetery? As you know the work there is not expected to be completed until next spring. There are several arrangements and expenditures to be made other than the restoration work itself to complete the project. Keith Rott Theresa Berghoff <[email protected]> wrote: On page 35 of the Indy Works proposal, Township Cemeteries are listed as a residual function. Item 2 under Solutions states their maintenance will transfer to the Dept. of Public Works and/or Indy Parks. Most of the cemeteries under Township care are historic cemeteries of the pioneer period. What training will DPW or Indy Parks have to repair, preserve, and maintain these cemeteries? How will the recently restored Washington Township Cemeteries be maintained ? Will money be added to the DPW and/or Indy Parks budgets for their care? Will Marion County establish a Cemetery Commission to make sure these historic cemeteries don't fall through the cracks of the UNIGOV system? Theresa Berghoff Marion County Resident and member of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today! ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790)

On page 35 of the Indy Works proposal, Township Cemeteries are listed as a residual function. Item 2 under Solutions states their maintenance will transfer to the Dept. of Public Works and/or Indy Parks. Most of the cemeteries under Township care are historic cemeteries of the pioneer period. What training will DPW or Indy Parks have to repair, preserve, and maintain these cemeteries? How will the recently restored Washington Township Cemeteries be maintained ? Will money be added to the DPW and/or Indy Parks budgets for their care? Will Marion County establish a Cemetery Commission to make sure these historic cemeteries don't fall through the cracks of the UNIGOV system? Theresa Berghoff Marion County Resident and member of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? vote.yahoo.com - Register online to vote today!

Wonderful! I can heartily join the chorus for highly sung praises of the Van Sickle cemetery group. Great job folks! Corrie E. Cook Assistant, Local History Services Indiana Historical Society 450 West Ohio Street Indianapolis, IN 46202 317-233-8913 [email protected] www.indianahistory.org -----Original Message----- From: Brad Manzenberger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 5:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [INPCRP] A Thank You to INPCRP I received the following in the mail today. -------------- Dear Brad, I would like to express my thanks to you and the other members of the INPCRP that took part in the restoration workshop of the Van Sickle Cemetery. I do not have addresses for all those involved, so would it be possible to place a thank you on your web site or by email, I would greatly appreciate it. My uncle, Keith Rott, has sung high praises of everyone involved with this project. I live in Texas and can't wait to get home to see the result's of everyone's hard work on this historical treasure. Again, please accept my sincere appreciation of everyone's hard work, time, effort and caring about our historical families. Sincerely, Cathy Nuzman Frisco, TX ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== INPCRP State Coordinator: Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > http://www.inpcrp.org

I received the following in the mail today. -------------- Dear Brad, I would like to express my thanks to you and the other members of the INPCRP that took part in the restoration workshop of the Van Sickle Cemetery. I do not have addresses for all those involved, so would it be possible to place a thank you on your web site or by email, I would greatly appreciate it. My uncle, Keith Rott, has sung high praises of everyone involved with this project. I live in Texas and can't wait to get home to see the result's of everyone's hard work on this historical treasure. Again, please accept my sincere appreciation of everyone's hard work, time, effort and caring about our historical families. Sincerely, Cathy Nuzman Frisco, TX

I remember last week I think there was a discusion thread on the legality of unearthing stones. Would someone please reiterate for me. Thanks, Larry Leahy Delaware county--Muncie

Hello: Yes, I would like to know also is there a way to locate the "stones" that are hidden under the ground? The cemetery that we are working on now has piles under the ground where some one has placed them in a heap and covered them up. We have found about 6-8 places already and they are about 12" under the ground. It would be so much easier if we had something to just look for stones under the ground. It is disappointing when you just turn up piles of rocks! Joan Wray Tipton County ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernie & Connie Lasley" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:56 AM Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Routh Cemetery - Locating graves without digging. > Ground Penetrating Radar is one method. Rich Green is a GIS & Remote > Sensing Specialist and has used the various technologies to locate > unmarked > graves. > > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you.

This was 30 some years ago, but I remember when I70 was built they suspect at least 3 cemeteries in Henry County were further lost to that construction - of course, no one wanted to say anything at the time or it would held up the project............ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe and Sharon Mills" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 6:39 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Re: Cemteries disturbed by highway > --=======18CB26FB======= > Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-423D6C3C; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > > My husband attended the 1-69 meeting held in Bloomington weeks ago by the > feds. He got the impression, although the feds didn't say so, that they > felt they could do whatever they wanted with cemeteries. As president of > the Morgan Co historic preservation society, he wanted some assurances > about several cemeteries that it would be hard to miss with the current plans. > > If he read it right, the state folks intend to follow state law. Whether > or not the feds think they have to do that is open to question. > > Sharon Mills > > > > At 11:28 AM 10/18/2004, you wrote: > > >It is my understanding that no cemeteries are to be disturbed; however, > >you can check this out yourself here: > > > >http://deis.i69indyevn.org/ > > > >Regards, > > > >Rich Green > > --=======18CB26FB======= > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-avg=cert; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-423D6C3C > Content-Disposition: inline > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004 > > --=======18CB26FB=======-- > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Brad Manzenberger < [email protected] > is the INPCRP State Coordinator. Feel free to contact him directly regarding questions or comments you may have about the INPCRP. > >