Hi Sharon, I respect what you are saying, and for me personally, no I would never use concrete. I understand fully what everyone is saying and why we do not use concrete to set stones. And hopefully in the future, maybe Madison Co. can request their restorers not to use it anymore. But for people on this list to slam the efforts of people who have been doing this for a long time, is cold and hurtful. They were trying to share with this group something that they are very proud of and some of the response back to them was rude. There may have been a more tactful way to suggest they look into other methods of restoring the stones. Like I said before, there are so many cemeteries needing restored, and there's only so much money for it. Not every county can afford to have a cemetery restored the way that Redenbaugh was done, and there arn't enough of the Pro's around to make sure that every cemetery gets done and is done properly. While these old cemeterys wait on someone to come in and restore them, they get worse every year and at some point will disappear and will be gone forever. I'm sorry, but if I have to choose between my Grandpa's stone being crushed or stolen, I'd far rather have him put in concrete. I have attended several of the Madison Co. Cemetery Commission meetings, and have listened to them discuss Cottrell. They are very precise on what they do, organized, and document everything. I do not agree with some of their techniques, such as the concrete, and as time goes, maybe I can help them convince the people that do the restorations to change their ways. I have been trying to organize a workshop for another cemetery in Madison Co. for several months now, in which possibly some of this could be corrected, but again, Mark and Helen are booked, the Historical Society says they are a year out, and so things are on hold for now. Again, there are more cemeterys in need, than people willing to fix them. I just wish everyone would stop judging, critisizing and argueing about everything that gets brought up on this site. There are ways to be more tactful. If I was affended by the comments, I can certainly imagine what members of the Madison Co. Commission are feeling. You can't teach someone a different way if you slam them. Amy

> Hello all: > > We are restoring Bethsaida Cemetery in Tipton County that was "re-set" > back in the 1950's using cement as I was told by one who helped on that > project. We now have a huge mound of cement that we have removed and > replaced with crushed stone and new bases, etc. Needless to say, the > stones still fell over and leaned and slid of bases. The cement doesn't > give a good fix. > > Joan Wray > Tipton County > ```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` > > I am having trouble replying to INPCRP, so Mark is forwarding this > message for me.... > > I looked at the photos of this cemetery, and I was saddened to see the > concrete and metal frames on the stones. If any research was done on > the web, there would have been several sources that state concrete is a > "do not do" thing. Concrete is basically irreversable. I have a very > low sucess rate with removing a stone from concrete, and the hours > involved are incredible. If I am unsure of what to do with a stone, I > wait and do research. The stone is the number one priority. Madison Co > has more than just this one cemetery with the stones set in concrete, so > it is not just limited to a "one time deal". They have been doing this > for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I see this in every county I go > into. Most of the concrete work has been done many years ago. That is > why we stress education so strongly, so it won't continue in this trend. > I have seen too many stones where the concrete comes off, and you see > the evidence of the salts in the concrete eating the stone away. Sure, > concrete is quick and easy, but doing it the right way first would be > much better. I always say that the problems in a cemetery are not what > is readily visible, but what is below the surface, such as concrete. > The cemetery may look pretty now, but in a few years, the stones will > start snapping off from the pressure of the concrete. > I am always looking for better ways to do restoration, so don't think > that it's my way or no way. Just do the research first, PLEASE. > > Helen Wildermuth > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer > Cemeteries Restoration Project only. > Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname > and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com > are a better venue. > Thank you.

Cindy and list. This is something I have inquired about. It's not moving ahead as fast as I would like it to. The WebPages were sponsored by Rootsweb and Brad did move them to his own site. I will let you know as soon as I get somewhere with all this. L.A ----- Original Message ----- From: "crfordy" <crfordy@comcast.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:45 AM Subject: [INPCRP] Re: INPCRP-D Digest V05 #234 > Can anyone tell me if there is currently a list owner or if there is an > administrator? > > I checked for activity at inpcrp.org and it was last updated on August 25th > 2005 > and the staus is pending Delete-Restorable. Did Brad buy this site @$50 per > year? It must be paid up until July 19, 2006, cause thats when the registry > expires. I thought this was supposed to be hosted without cost by rootsweb. > Does anyone know how it came to be moved to somewhere that it could not be > reached. I am really curious about this whole thing. I dont remember a > consensus of the group to move it to another site or does it really belong > to the group? Did it ever? Who holds the copyright to: © 2004- Indiana > Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project > Is Scott Satterthwaite still on the list? This was all originally something > he started on his own. Maybe there are some answers out there. > Don Huffman > crfordy@comcast.net > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA > >

Amy, As a Redenbaugh cousin, I respectfully ask you to recall our challenge to keep that cemetery free from concrete encased stones. Remember our big fight, some of which was chronicled on this list? Those same reinforced concrete techniques were advised for our Redenbaugh cemetery in Montgomery County. If that had occurred, I don't think we would have a readable stone left. Because we were successful in stopping the concrete mess, and that meant bombarding some school personnel with information about correct vs incorrect restoration, we convinced the school administration to do it right. Helen Wildermuth and Mark Davis carefully pieced back together our fragmented stones, which stand proudly today on the grounds of Southmont High School. There can be no question about what is right. Wrong is (almost) always wrong. Restoration using some not-so-great techniques is not restoration. The people working so hard but so misguidedly in Madison Co need to be educated. Go for it. Sharon At 09:45 PM 8/31/2005, you wrote: >First of all, I think you are missing the point. Yes, unfortunatly, they >have been restoring using concrete. We all know it's not a good thing, >but who >are we to judge them when they have spent 6 years restoring a huge >mess. This >is a cemetery that was bulldozed and pushed into a ditch, bodies and all, by >some idiot who lived near there.. .. The Madison Co. Cemetery Commission has >spent all these years working to restore it, after what was done to it, and >they have certainly researched it to full extent. They are very proud of >what >they have accomplished and I think you should be a little more understanding >of the situation before assuming that they are just out there throwing stones >here and there. I know we all wish that every person out there is restoring >the cemeterys up to this group's standards, but let's face it, there are >hundreds of cemeterys needing restoration, and only a few people out there >actually >doing the hard part. So, the choice is, you either restore with some not so >great techniques, or you just ignore it and let the cemetery stay in disarray >until it's finally gone all together. and as for lack of reaction from >this >group, it may be because it was decided awhile ago that this was just a >message board, so many people arn't really getting involved in it anymore. > >Amy Terry >Madison County > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer >Cemeteries Restoration Project only. >Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname >and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are >a better venue. >Thank you. > > > >__________ NOD32 1.1205 (20050830) Information __________ > >This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. >http://www.eset.com

In a message dated 9/1/05 9:57:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rgreen@insightbb.com writes: > And perhaps more importantly, the Message Board won't be turned off when > any part of the group decides to take their HTML marbles and go home. > Hear.Hear, BJ

In a message dated 9/1/05 6:30:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KidClerk@aol.com writes: > ....but someone has to own it, don't they? > > Kyle D. Conrad > > Kyle, kentucky is like indiana, just go to the recorders office with the location and it can be found. yes someone does own it!!! BJ

Can anyone tell me if there is currently a list owner or if there is an administrator? I checked for activity at inpcrp.org and it was last updated on August 25th 2005 and the staus is pending Delete-Restorable. Did Brad buy this site @$50 per year? It must be paid up until July 19, 2006, cause thats when the registry expires. I thought this was supposed to be hosted without cost by rootsweb. Does anyone know how it came to be moved to somewhere that it could not be reached. I am really curious about this whole thing. I dont remember a consensus of the group to move it to another site or does it really belong to the group? Did it ever? Who holds the copyright to: © 2004- Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project Is Scott Satterthwaite still on the list? This was all originally something he started on his own. Maybe there are some answers out there. Don Huffman crfordy@comcast.net

I am having trouble replying to INPCRP, so Mark is forwarding this message for me.... I looked at the photos of this cemetery, and I was saddened to see the concrete and metal frames on the stones. If any research was done on the web, there would have been several sources that state concrete is a "do not do" thing. Concrete is basically irreversable. I have a very low sucess rate with removing a stone from concrete, and the hours involved are incredible. If I am unsure of what to do with a stone, I wait and do research. The stone is the number one priority. Madison Co has more than just this one cemetery with the stones set in concrete, so it is not just limited to a "one time deal". They have been doing this for a long time. Don't get me wrong, I see this in every county I go into. Most of the concrete work has been done many years ago. That is why we stress education so strongly, so it won't continue in this trend. I have seen too many stones where the concrete comes off, and you see the evidence of the salts in the concrete eating the stone away. Sure, concrete is quick and easy, but doing it the right way first would be much better. I always say that the problems in a cemetery are not what is readily visible, but what is below the surface, such as concrete. The cemetery may look pretty now, but in a few years, the stones will start snapping off from the pressure of the concrete. I am always looking for better ways to do restoration, so don't think that it's my way or no way. Just do the research first, PLEASE. Helen Wildermuth -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Hello Folks, I have personally seen the Cottrell/Chapman Cemetery you folks are commenting on from the worst case in 1998 with a junkyard scene and bones washing out of the ground to the beautiful restoration job being done today. I hate to say, I went to school with and knew the people who devastated this old cemetery. As Green Twp. Trustee / Assessor, I can tell you that I am very proud of the work being done and it is absolutely a great feeling to walk through there and to look at beautiful new stones as well as repaired older stones shining in the sunlight. My 87 year old father and lifelong resident of this township walked through there the other day. He was amazed at the dedication and time put into this very worthwhile project. My Purdue college son mows and trims 7 other cemeteries in the township for me during his summer break. He and I have been running mowers, weed eaters, trimming tees, spraying and tending the area after the committee of volunteers backfilled, leveled and seeded this spring. And as most of you know it has been exceptionally hot this summer to do any of the aforementioned. Cottrell/Chapman is now a place to admire, even if you have no ancestors buried there. My wife and I walked through it the other evening about dark, and I can say it just gives you a good feeling to see the progress. This county's cemetery group stayed in touch with me during the entire process, and have kept me in touch. I have attended a few of their meetings. There are two descendants living in 2 other states I have been in communication with. One paid for a new historical sign to be put along the road when they get the front fence installed. Other descendants have paid for the radar procedure to define the 91 gravesites. I drove the identifying stakes flush so we could mow, and also drove a 5" long x 1" diameter copper rod in the center of every known grave. Many stones have been reset to date. There are still many bones at the University of Indianapolis we need to get properly buried. I have offered to the committee and descendants, the free services of an undertaker friend and my pastor, both waiting to give the bones proper burial when the committee needs them. As far as restoration efforts, I can't tell you if these volunteers are using the proper epoxy or mortar or superglue, but I can tell you there has been a lot of sweat and backaches put into that cemetery in the last few weeks by folks who want the little cemetery to shine. They are doing just that and I am proud to say my son and I have been a small part of restoring history and will continue to groom the cemetery as long as I am in this office. The cemetery is located about 2 1/2 miles South of the intersection of SR 13 and Interstate 69 on CR 1000S. Go South of the interstate on SR 13 to CR 1000S and turn left (East). Go approximately 3/4 mile and look for the cemetery on your right hand side (South side, just past a big farm pond). Stop by sometime and see for yourself what has been done. Don't criticize these volunteers for dedicating their time, money and talents to enhancing what we refer to as "Beautiful Green" township. Thanks and have a great day, Greg Valentine Green Township Trustee / Assessor Madison County, Indiana -----Original Message----- From: Adhough1@aol.com [mailto:Adhough1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:45 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny First of all, I think you are missing the point. Yes, unfortunatly, they have been restoring using concrete. We all know it's not a good thing, but who are we to judge them when they have spent 6 years restoring a huge mess. This is a cemetery that was bulldozed and pushed into a ditch, bodies and all, by some idiot who lived near there.. .. The Madison Co. Cemetery Commission has spent all these years working to restore it, after what was done to it, and they have certainly researched it to full extent. They are very proud of what they have accomplished and I think you should be a little more understanding of the situation before assuming that they are just out there throwing stones here and there. I know we all wish that every person out there is restoring the cemeterys up to this group's standards, but let's face it, there are hundreds of cemeterys needing restoration, and only a few people out there actually doing the hard part. So, the choice is, you either restore with some not so great techniques, or you just ignore it and let the cemetery stay in disarray until it's finally gone all together. and as for lack of reaction from this group, it may be because it was decided awhile ago that this was just a message board, so many people arn't really getting involved in it anymore. Amy Terry Madison County ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you. **************************************************************************************** Note: If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ****************************************************************************************

sue, thanks for your e-mail and suggestions. i do have some research to do before we can proceed. as far as i'm able to ascertain, the church was southern and/or missionary baptist, which is independent, even though there is the southern baptist convention. but each individual church is self-governed, so the sbc would not be a successor to the deed. so while i'm learning all this stuff, i'm also sending a letter to the attorney general, asking what has been done in ky with cemeteries that have lost their churches and are ownerless. i will keep this list posted (no pun intended) on what i find out. scot -----Original Message----- From: Sue Silver <ssilver1951@jps.net> To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 08:32:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [INPCRP] preservation On another note, maybe the recent tax assessor's haven't taken the time to locate any original deed from the wayback-past. I tend to find a lot of laziness in government. They somehow find it easier to say something doesn't exist than to go look for it. In California, nonprofit cemeteries are exempt from taxation. Kentucky may have something like this or not so that it may not seem important to the assessor. On the other hand, if a Church owned it and left town, so to speak, there yet could be a deed on it. If you found the deed and you have a way to locate a synod or main group that Church was organized under, perhaps they would step in as successor trustees for the cemetery and sign it over to the county so that it could receive some care over the years. Especially after all the descendants of your family are gone. Sue Silver ----- Original Message ----- From: KidClerk@aol.com To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] preservation Scot: It sounds like you have many obstacles to overcome on this and please keep the list updated as to your progress. But keep in mind this... I would think if you really wanted to do work in that cemetery, it would be hard for anyone to keep you from doing it. I mean, who's gonna press trespassing charges against you? :) kyle, that's what i thought, too. then i found out that it was owned by a church that closed in 1868. the church was not sold, and eventually it collapsed and someone (maybe farmers?) cleared the rubble. the courthouse says that there is no deed to the land, no record of ownership, and no taxes paid on it. i would think the land would automatically revert to either the state or county, but every state is different. i'm still trying to find out if that's true for kentucky or not. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals." ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

i have two questions: 1. i'm new to this list (one week) and new to cemetery preservation (two weeks), so i can understand how someone might think that setting a stone in concrete is a good idea. perhaps they had seen it done in another cemetery and thought it was the right thing to do, and therefore, thought no further research was necessary. (i'm just trying to look at it from both sides.) but can someone tell me what is the damage done by using concrete? (remember, i'm new to this and am eager to learn.) 2. once a stone is set in concrete, is there any remedy? can it be removed down the line? scot -----Original Message----- From: Angela <atielking@insightbb.com> To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:04:38 -0500 Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Clarification! Hello everyone, I have kept quiet for a long time because I am frankly tired of all the fighting and lack of respect for one another that takes place frequently on this list. But, in this case, I have to stand by Mark. Any one who knows cemetery restoration knows using concrete is a no-no. No excuses. I recently toured another cemetery where the township trustee was wanting to do a "good thing" and laid the stones on their backs in concrete. He did the absolute worst thing you can do. I wanted to cry. I believe if you don't know what you are doing, wait for someone to do it who does. What are the rules of cemetery restoration? 1) Do no harm 2) If in doubt, consult an expert. I understand Madison Co's frustration. Bless your hearts, but please research before proceeding. Don't think of now, but what the repairs will do to the stones in 10, 20, 50 years. Respectfully, Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hull [mailto:thull@iquest.net] Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:01 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [INPCRP] Clarification! As to the purpose of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, is it not to support the preservation of pioneer cemeteries or does it only foster one method of restoration--that endorsed by Mark Davis? Is this a broad spectrum, politically pro-active coalition or is it a myopic "my-way-or-no-way" social club? Somebody clarify this issue for me. Melody Madison County ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you.

oh, BELIEVE ME, if i could clean that cemetery, i would spend every moment i could doing so! i'm a major gardener, so i love working with plants of all types. of course, that doesn't mean that i would remove everything that's there, and turn it into a flower garden with headstones... instead, i would remove the invasive plants and those that are causing destruction, but would leave the ones that were probably planted by my ancestors and their friends. however, i live in spokane, washington, so doing work on the cemetery myself is not an option. and to my knowledge, i have only one cousin who lives near it, and he is overburdened taking care of his wife who is in poor health. scot -----Original Message----- From: KidClerk@aol.com To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:52:29 EDT Subject: Re: [INPCRP] preservation Scot: It sounds like you have many obstacles to overcome on this and please keep the list updated as to your progress. But keep in mind this... I would think if you really wanted to do work in that cemetery, it would be hard for anyone to keep you from doing it. I mean, who's gonna press trespassing charges against you? :) kyle, that's what i thought, too. then i found out that it was owned by a church that closed in 1868. the church was not sold, and eventually it collapsed and someone (maybe farmers?) cleared the rubble. the courthouse says that there is no deed to the land, no record of ownership, and no taxes paid on it. i would think the land would automatically revert to either the state or county, but every state is different. i'm still trying to find out if that's true for kentucky or not. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals."

In a message dated 09/01/2005 9:00:04 AM Central Standard Time, thull@iquest.net writes: As to the purpose of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, is it not to support the preservation of pioneer cemeteries or does it only foster one method of restoration--that endorsed by Mark Davis? Is this a broad spectrum, politically pro-active coalition or is it a myopic "my-way-or-no-way" social club? Somebody clarify this issue for me. Melody Madison County Melody: You will probably receive a myriad of responses to your question, but let me make a couple of comments since I am not and have never claimed to be a tombstone restorationist, even though I wholeheartedly support such endeavors. I haven't the talent nor equipment to do such work, but I greatly respect those that do.... With that in mind, there is no doubt more than one 'method' of restoration of pioneer grave markers. This is evident by discussions on this list and by traversing the state's cemeteries. However, there are certain methods that, when practiced, can cause irreparable harm to these tombstones, thus defeating the purpose of what the members of this list have set out to do. The goals of this list are many. Not only do members work to identify cemeteries that are in danger of being obliterated from the face of the earth, but once identified they work to try and save and restore them to an acceptable state. Those that understand the dynamics of the various types and materials of grave stones in existence in Indiana also try to share that knowledge and experience with everyone who frequents this list (and previously the web site) to ensure that any and all restoration is done in a way that it does not cause more harm to the stones. And it does get frustrating when, with all of the information available through this and other sources, incorrect restoration continues to be practiced. Different cleaning methods and repair methods have been discussed on this list for many years. Those that truly want to do a proper job of restoration will research and ask questions of those who have the expertise and experience to know the answers. As Rich Green so eloquently stated earlier today in a response to another post... "There are no leaders, no followers...just a diverse group of folks getting together to share information or to ask for assistance." It's not the ones who come here to ask questions and gain knowledge that we are concerned about. It's the ones who don't but that proceed to do unacceptable restoration that should worry us all. In some cases, doing nothing will cause less damage over time. As for those methods endorsed by Mark Davis...I think it's safe to say that those same methods, and others very similar in nature, have been endorsed by most of the participants on this list for many years. It just gets frustrating when people don't take advantage of the resources that are available to them... And on a personal note...I can speak to this very issue as just a few years ago some very well meaning distant cousins of mine restored my great great great great grandfather's stone in the Messick Cemetery in Henry County by sinking it in concrete and painting it white. While their short range results were good, I also know that this work could be the death knell for this 100+ year old stone. All we're trying to do is promote the proper method of preserving our state's pioneer cemeteries. Hopefully you can understand and appreciate the intent and the frustration that is shared by many. Kyle

Scot: It sounds like you have many obstacles to overcome on this and please keep the list updated as to your progress. But keep in mind this... I would think if you really wanted to do work in that cemetery, it would be hard for anyone to keep you from doing it. I mean, who's gonna press trespassing charges against you? :) kyle, that's what i thought, too. then i found out that it was owned by a church that closed in 1868. the church was not sold, and eventually it collapsed and someone (maybe farmers?) cleared the rubble. the courthouse says that there is no deed to the land, no record of ownership, and no taxes paid on it. i would think the land would automatically revert to either the state or county, but every state is different. i'm still trying to find out if that's true for kentucky or not.

Thanks for asking Scot! 1. Concrete is much harder than marble. If a tablet stone is put in concrete, the concrete puts a lot of pressure on the stone. If the stone is hit, either by a mower or vandal, the stone will break just above the concrete. Concrete is not reversible, with out a LOT of work and manpower to chip away all the concrete. 2. If a stone is laid flat on the ground in concrete, the weather, rain, ice, snow, is all beating down on the face of the stone, which was meant to stand up right, so the water would run off it. This deteriorates the carving. Rhonda Stoffer Head of Indiana History and Genealogy Services Marion Public Library -----Original Message----- From: scotstout@aol.com [mailto:scotstout@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 10:28 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Clarification! i have two questions: 1. i'm new to this list (one week) and new to cemetery preservation (two weeks), so i can understand how someone might think that setting a stone in concrete is a good idea. perhaps they had seen it done in another cemetery and thought it was the right thing to do, and therefore, thought no further research was necessary. (i'm just trying to look at it from both sides.) but can someone tell me what is the damage done by using concrete? (remember, i'm new to this and am eager to learn.) 2. once a stone is set in concrete, is there any remedy? can it be removed down the line? scot -----Original Message----- From: Angela <atielking@insightbb.com> To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 10:04:38 -0500 Subject: RE: [INPCRP] Clarification! Hello everyone, I have kept quiet for a long time because I am frankly tired of all the fighting and lack of respect for one another that takes place frequently on this list. But, in this case, I have to stand by Mark. Any one who knows cemetery restoration knows using concrete is a no-no. No excuses. I recently toured another cemetery where the township trustee was wanting to do a "good thing" and laid the stones on their backs in concrete. He did the absolute worst thing you can do. I wanted to cry. I believe if you don't know what you are doing, wait for someone to do it who does. What are the rules of cemetery restoration? 1) Do no harm 2) If in doubt, consult an expert. I understand Madison Co's frustration. Bless your hearts, but please research before proceeding. Don't think of now, but what the repairs will do to the stones in 10, 20, 50 years. Respectfully, Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hull [mailto:thull@iquest.net] Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:01 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [INPCRP] Clarification! As to the purpose of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, is it not to support the preservation of pioneer cemeteries or does it only foster one method of restoration--that endorsed by Mark Davis? Is this a broad spectrum, politically pro-active coalition or is it a myopic "my-way-or-no-way" social club? Somebody clarify this issue for me. Melody Madison County ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals."

kyle, that's what i thought, too. then i found out that it was owned by a church that closed in 1868. the church was not sold, and eventually it collapsed and someone (maybe farmers?) cleared the rubble. the courthouse says that there is no deed to the land, no record of ownership, and no taxes paid on it. i would think the land would automatically revert to either the state or county, but every state is different. i'm still trying to find out if that's true for kentucky or not. -----Original Message----- From: KidClerk@aol.com To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:29:54 EDT Subject: Re: [INPCRP] preservation In a message dated 8/31/2005 7:03:59 PM Central Standard Time, ScotStout@aol.com writes: > the public valuation office says nobody owns > the land. it is also not located in a town. I realize I'm not familiar with Kentucky customs, traditions, and laws being from Indiana....but I just don't see how there can be land that 'nobody' owns. I thought all of the US had been claimed, oh....over 100 years ago. Now, maybe no one is paying taxes on it....but someone has to own it, don't they? Kyle D. Conrad ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

Hello everyone, I have kept quiet for a long time because I am frankly tired of all the fighting and lack of respect for one another that takes place frequently on this list. But, in this case, I have to stand by Mark. Any one who knows cemetery restoration knows using concrete is a no-no. No excuses. I recently toured another cemetery where the township trustee was wanting to do a "good thing" and laid the stones on their backs in concrete. He did the absolute worst thing you can do. I wanted to cry. I believe if you don't know what you are doing, wait for someone to do it who does. What are the rules of cemetery restoration? 1) Do no harm 2) If in doubt, consult an expert. I understand Madison Co's frustration. Bless your hearts, but please research before proceeding. Don't think of now, but what the repairs will do to the stones in 10, 20, 50 years. Respectfully, Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Tom Hull [mailto:thull@iquest.net] Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 9:01 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [INPCRP] Clarification! As to the purpose of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, is it not to support the preservation of pioneer cemeteries or does it only foster one method of restoration--that endorsed by Mark Davis? Is this a broad spectrum, politically pro-active coalition or is it a myopic "my-way-or-no-way" social club? Somebody clarify this issue for me. Melody Madison County ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== This list is for discussion of topics related to the Indiana Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project only. Please do not send genealogical queries through this list. The surname and geographic Mailing Lists on Rootsweb at http://lists.rootsweb.com are a better venue. Thank you.

As to the purpose of the Indiana Pioneer Cemetery Restoration Project, is it not to support the preservation of pioneer cemeteries or does it only foster one method of restoration--that endorsed by Mark Davis? Is this a broad spectrum, politically pro-active coalition or is it a myopic "my-way-or-no-way" social club? Somebody clarify this issue for me. Melody Madison County

Hello Listers: I guess I didn't understand the implication that this is now somehow just a "Message Board"? What else was it supposed to be? I don't know about anyone else, but in my mind this always has been a Message Board. Message boards are an extremely efficient and cost effective way to share announcements, thoughts, ideas, techniques and suggestions across a fairly wide and open audience. With regard to the INPCRP web pages, it looks as though the last web site manager removed the pages and or left the host site in some sort of disarray, and that no one else in the group has been authorized to go repair and maintain it. This is unfortunate. The INPCRP web presence is probably an important draw, an Internet billboard of sorts, but the recent web site downtime has little effect on the important work of restoring cemeteries that has most certainly continued regardless of whether there is a web site or not. To put this in perspective, consider just how long the web pages have probably been absent, and that only just recently is someone writing the list to ask why? The INPCRP message board, on the other hand, seems to be stable even if it doesn't include any graphics or links to other informative sites. There are no leaders, no followers...just a diverse group of folks getting together to share information or to ask for assistance. This has always been a place where ideas are freely exchanged. If you don't like or agree with a particular topic, you are free to disagree or simply delete the post or thread. And perhaps more importantly, the Message Board won't be turned off when any part of the group decides to take their HTML marbles and go home. I suspect that some folks on the list were offended by the argumentative nature of discussions this Spring, but that for the most part this hasn't changed anything. The INPCRP Message Board does seem a bit light in terms of total posts here of late, but I imagine that many people are out there taking advantage of the summer season and working hard in their respective areas of the state. I know we've had a busy summer up until just recently with little time to write. Long live the Message Board! Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Mobile: (765) 427-4082 www.har-indy.com

Yeah, it was set up in conjunction with the Kentucky state historical association. You would need to contact the HA for more information as they are the ones that administer the program. -----Original Message----- From: Sue Silver [mailto:ssilver1951@jps.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 9:18 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] preservation I believe a few years back the Kentucky Attorney General created a program for such cemeteries. Check the AG's website in Kentucky and see if you can't find info there. If not, does someone on INPCRP remember that activity around 2000-2001? Bill Spurlock - do you recall it? Sue Silver CA Saving Graves ----- Original Message ----- From: ScotStout@aol.com To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 6:03 PM Subject: [INPCRP] preservation hello. i joined this list about a week ago looking for some guidance. i have a lucky but unique situation. my distant cousins and i have just begun in the last few days to correspond with each other concerning our ancestors' cemetery in kentucky. short history: the earliest known burial was 1826. the cemetery contains soldiers from the civil war, and at least one from the revolutionary war. there was a church that owned the cemetery, but the church closed in 1868. the cemetery has been overgrown at least since 1950. the public valuation office says nobody owns the land. it is also not located in a town. other than tombstones being knocked over, no vandalism has occurred to my knowledge. the cemetery is hidden in trees, surrounded by tobacco fields. the farmer who owns the surrounding land has piled brush in front of the entrance to keep ATVs out of it, so at least he respects it. my #1 question is, how do my cousins and i go about preserving this cemetery if there is no owner, and no one can buy it? i have looked at a few web sites, including savinggraves.com and have found some valuable information, but nothing pertaining to a cemetery that is without an owner. we're starting completely from scratch here, so any suggestions are most welcome. sincerely, scot stout ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals."