In a message dated 9/7/2005 6:00:27 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, LindaKen2048@aol.com writes: In a message dated 9/7/2005 5:55:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Usa10sfgaa@aol.com writes: A cemetery we had only about 37 names for. The GPR guy marked the places where graves were most likely present with colored chalk. "Please explain more in detail the above statement". We had very limited information to go on. The old Madison county court house had a fire in it decades ago. Many of the county's oldest records were lost forever. The Cottrell cemetery had been "read" very little back through the years and in fact I can't even recall seeing a photograph of the cemetery dating earlier than the 1990's. When we took on this project, we of the cemetery commission negotiated with the land owner for a quit claim dead. The boundaries of the cemetery land deeded to the Twp. trustee were based upon the land records we had describing the cemetery and a new survey to establish what the borders were of that portion of the cemetery that still survived within the boundaries original description. Once the fence was up the Cottrell family was concerned that the quit claim deed had not placed the boundary of the cemetery far enough west. And they also wanted to more definitely define the specific locations of some of their ancestors graves to the greatest extent possible. So that family paid for a GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) survey of the cemetery grounds and the ground just outside the west fence of the cemetery. GPR surveys are very expensive. Though I don't know what the final bill was, I was told that it cost the Cottrell family $300.00 per hour and I suspect that it took all day to accomplish. The GPR crew scraped the very top surface of the cemetery to remove vegetation and in order to make their equipment work most effectively. So there is more to it than just taking equipment and dragging it across the existing surface. Anyway the GPR apparently does not actually "see" remains so much as depicts disturbed soil and indicated that almost 90 holes of about the size and depth expected for a grave had been dug in that cemetery over the years. It even appears that in this cemetery there was section for infants, like some others we have seen here, including the Fausset Cemetery which is only about 2 miles further west on the same county road. The GPR crew marked the outline of each possible grave with lines of colored chalk as used on football fields, etc. I was informed late in the afternoon that the study was done. I picked up a bunch of end cuttings of steel concrete reinforcement bar from my place of business, drove out and with the assistance of one of the Cottrell family drove those short pieces of Rebar part way into the ground where the headstone would normally be placed in order to permanently mark the locations. Later the Twp. trustee came out and drove the rods the rest of the way into the ground and marked the locations of the known graves we had damaged or fractured markers for and those where the Cottrell family had designated as the most likely locations of their ancestors with little survey flags. These are what we used for reference when we replaced the headstones that had not been damaged or needed reset. Headstones, and even bases, that were still in good condition were left in place and worked around during the whole process. Hope I answered your question. Regards, Rob Hains

First of all I would like to welcome you to the list Rob Haines. By now I'll bet your wondering what on earth you stepped into. :-) I also want to add a comment before we all get to hot on this issue of "who is right". The learning process of any subject takes time. Please discuss or teach and don't stomp on someone that doesn't see your views. What good dose this really do any of us on this list. Here is THE BOOK we have as a guide. 1. "A Graveyard Preservation Primer" by Lynette Strangstad (available through the Association for Gravestone Studies). The methods of restoration were not created by one guy. They were all taken from this book that is on the main webpage. The AGS is the other source that teaches restoration, John Walter has attended this conference. He is a kind sole who has offered to share what he has learned and uses this book as his guide. The Assoc. of Gravestone Studies puts on this conference every year. It cost much more that the workshops that are presented each year in Indiana. I certainly hope to attend one of these conferences someday. If you think about these folks, they are preserving tombstones that have more years on them than our state. The East cost was settled in the 1600/1700's. I'll bet then have learned right-from-wrong. There may be other associations that teach too. Send away and lets look at them too. 2. I love your answer Lee. Go take a look and share what you know with each other. There certainly are different methods. Shouldn't we all continue seek new information? L.A.. ps, I have started to add page links back on the INPCRP webpage. This will be a slow process but I'll get er-done. http://www.gravestonestudies.org/ AGS Conference; ( please go read their webpage for more on their conferences and publications) The Association for Gravestone Studies (AGS) was founded in 1977 for the purpose of furthering the study and preservation of gravestones. AGS is an international organization with an interest in gravemarkers of all periods and styles. Through its publications, conferences, workshops and exhibits, AGS promotes the study of gravestones from historical and artistic perspectives, expands public awareness of the significance of historic gravemarkers, and encourages individuals and groups to record and preserve gravestones. At every opportunity, AGS cooperates with groups that have similar interests. Conferences: An annual conference, held the 4th week in June, features lectures, guided cemetery tours, slide presentations, exhibits, classes, and documentation and conservation workshops. That Book: "A Graveyard Preservation Primer" by Lynette Strangstad "Written for non-professional and professional preservationists involved in small to mid-size graveyard preservation projects, this basic primer explains in step-by-step fashion how to preserve and restore a graveyard. After reading the suggestions outlined in this book, you will be able to plan a well organized preservation project. In this way the common mistakes and waste of resources that characterize many well-intentioned graveyard preservation efforts can be avoided. Restoration is discussed with recommendations as to what lay people should and should not undertake." 144 pages with index and illustrations. $21.20 for AGS members; $23.70 for non-members, plus $3.50-$5 shipping and handling. Website: Association for Gravestone Studies ----- Original Message ----- From: <Usa10sfgaa@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:43 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny > > In a message dated 9/7/2005 5:50:45 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, > Armytruck@webtv.net writes: > > I will make a trip to your graveyard and > look for myself, I don't think looking at any > pics would have helped me anyway. I have always poked my nose into work > projects that are mentioned on here. And > I am going to respect views on all sides, > I don't know that there is an expert out > there, but I'm here to learn more. Terse > as these discussions have gotten, I'm not out to get anyone. I'm all > ears to everyones voice. > > Thanks, > > Lee Creed > > > > Let me know when your coming to visit the Cottrell cemetery and I will meet > you there, or some where else and take you there, if I possibly can. Thanks > for a message of reason. > > Regards, > > Rob Hains > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >

In a message dated 9/7/2005 5:50:45 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, Armytruck@webtv.net writes: I will make a trip to your graveyard and look for myself, I don't think looking at any pics would have helped me anyway. I have always poked my nose into work projects that are mentioned on here. And I am going to respect views on all sides, I don't know that there is an expert out there, but I'm here to learn more. Terse as these discussions have gotten, I'm not out to get anyone. I'm all ears to everyones voice. Thanks, Lee Creed Let me know when your coming to visit the Cottrell cemetery and I will meet you there, or some where else and take you there, if I possibly can. Thanks for a message of reason. Regards, Rob Hains

Hi List: What are the methods y'all use for cleaning stones in order to read inscriptions. What type of permissions does one have to get to clean ancestors stones but stones which are located on plots that I do not have direct ownership of. The cemetery I want to do this work on is in NW Illinois--the major impediment is hard encrusted lichen and the stones are 1850-11890 era--the stones themselves are in good shape. Larry Leahy Muncie >

Mr. Hains, I am sorry if you and your commission feel it is being attacked. As you are now aware, we are a very opinionated lot with tempers that flare easily (mine included). We are trying to reason with you, but you just are not getting it. We are very appreciative of your time, energy and dedication that you show for your county's cemeteries. But you make it sound as if you are the only ones who work sun-up to sun-down at your cemeteries. We have all been there, done that. Everyone knows how much work you have put into this cemetery. If you want to know the affects that concrete has on a cemetery please visit the Gillium Chapel Cemetery in Vernon Twp., Hancock Co. In the 1970's the fire department decided to "restore" the cemetery and laid many of the stones in concrete. You can now see stress fractures across the stones and many are illegible due to the rain wearing away at the face of the stones. It is horribly sad. From Madison Co.,take St. Rd. 67 to McCordsville. At Mt. Comfort Rd. (600W) and 67 turn right at the stoplight. As soon as you cross over the railroad tracks you will see a one-lane road. Turn left and you will see the cemetery. Since we have a small budget (Hancock Co.), we try to stretch the dollar just as you do, but we still restore our cemeteries correctly. We have volunteers that help us from time to time. We are also working with two boy scouts this year who are working to earn their eagle badges. They are raising money for their projects and are helping us to defray costs for signage, fencing etc...They are also good workers who we are sharing our knowledge of cemeteries with them. They are very interested and eager to learn. The county was going to auction some antique iron fencing because they no longer had a use for it (it used to be around the county poor farm). I happen to notice it in the paper and I said, "hey, we can use that!" and the county gave it to us. We try to be creative. We do have limited funds, but that doesn't mean we don't get anything done. We have one total restoration done. We will have another one done, after our professional cemetery restorationist completes what we cannot, and the sign (which was donated by the Junior Historical Society) is installed. We should have another one completed by the end of this year as well. We thought we would have a third done by the end of this year, but it has turned out to be a bigger project than first thought. It will probably be finished by next spring. IMI has been a huge help by donating pea gravel and sand to us too. We would love to have a $5,000 budget. Boy, what we could do!! You are very lucky. And we are lucky to have the budget that we have. The cemeteries did not get in the condition that they are in overnight so it is impossible for any of us to fix them overnight. Every cemetery is different and their level of difficulty of restoration is different. We do not rush our work. We take our time to make sure we have done the best we can do. I do apologize if you or any other Madison Co. individual took offense to any of my posts. I still hope that none of my pioneer family members are not buried there (sorry, but it is how I feel). Good luck. Respectfully, Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Usa10sfgaa@aol.com [mailto:Usa10sfgaa@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 5:55 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny In a message dated 9/7/2005 10:38:11 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, atielking@insightbb.com writes: Dear Mr. Hains, I am quite envious of your cemetery commission's budget. Why, in Hancock Co. we are quite lucky to receive anything and have had our highest budget ever this year of $2,300. Henry Co. receives nothing from the county and relies on donations Then most likely a cemetery like Cottrell would never have been saved in you county unless the ancestors had a lot of money to put into it. You do realize that there is more steel reinforced concrete in that retaining wall below the ground than that you see above ground? That there are over 20 tri-axle dump truck loads of fill dirt that had to be hauled over the cemetery to make the slope and another three of rip-rap stone which had to be hand placed on top of a weed barrier that first laid over the fill dirt? another load of #8 gravel. Then about 350 feet of the industrial grade chain link fence because the farm fence just would not fit well in following the contours of the cemetery. And before that there was the volunteer work to remove the scrap metal and trash and probe the cemetery and drag and dump all the junk that was on the grounds. Followed by considerable brush and tree removal. Then the Cottrell family, at considerable cost had a GPR study done that indicated nearly 90 graves in the cemetery. A cemetery we had only about 37 names for. The GPR guy marked the places where graves were most likely present with colored chalk. Then I came on short notice that evening and drove short pieced of rebar to mark the most likely location of the head stone for each grave. Later, Greg, the Twp. Trustee came by and put flags on those locations and drove the stakes into the ground, thus marking the locations for a metal detector to find for years to come. This cemetery required a lot of work and expense to save. I am sure there are others here that do a lot of work on their own time and spend some of their money getting the job done. But then again, it gets my dander up when folks question our commitment and that is exactly what was done in the forum by more than one poster and thus I felt it necessary the challenge those statements. Even today I see a message saying they hope none of their ancestors are buried in Madison county. A statement that indicates that person would rather have had us leave that junk yard alone and let it erode away slide down the hill with her ancestors bones and all. Quite a statement. You have your opinion about concrete and we have ours. I will say I will not be so judgmental about your methods. I figure reasonable folks look at the cemeteries around them, determine what the problems are and what the primary mechanisms of damage to grave markers are given the local situation and conditions, and then make decisions as to what is the best method to preserve the markers given what they have seen and learned. Learned not just from seminars and books but from what they actually see in their cemeteries. Rob Hains. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is undisguised. This is a cemetery. "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA

And to add to that, if concrete makes those graves stay there for another 30 years, that is better than the piles of destroyed stones once left up next to the fence, that end up hauled away to the local dump/ creek bed ect.. Every year, new techniques come out that are better than the year before. We know that concrete may not be the best way, but what happens a year from now if you find out some other techniques weren't the right way. This whole restoration process is a learning process, and it should already be known, that even the cemeterys that are restored, may need work again in the future. I have walked through several cemeteries in another county, where nothing is being done, and I am sick. By the time I am able to go up there and do what I can to repair them, they may not exist. What I am hearing, is that Madison Co. should have just left the Cottrell cemetery the way it was rather than use concrete. So if it's taken 6 years to repair it, and it takes longer to use the correct methods, they would be looking at several more years until they are finished. So in the several more years, that is that more cemeteries that are ignored. Amy

In a message dated 9/7/2005 5:55:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, Usa10sfgaa@aol.com writes: A cemetery we had only about 37 names for. The GPR guy marked the places where graves were most likely present with colored chalk. Please explain more in detail the above statement. Researching: Gill, Stout, Manor, Mann in Indiana McGregor, McAleer, Coyle, Callaghan in NYC

In a message dated 9/7/2005 10:38:11 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, atielking@insightbb.com writes: Dear Mr. Hains, I am quite envious of your cemetery commission's budget. Why, in Hancock Co. we are quite lucky to receive anything and have had our highest budget ever this year of $2,300. Henry Co. receives nothing from the county and relies on donations Then most likely a cemetery like Cottrell would never have been saved in you county unless the ancestors had a lot of money to put into it. You do realize that there is more steel reinforced concrete in that retaining wall below the ground than that you see above ground? That there are over 20 tri-axle dump truck loads of fill dirt that had to be hauled over the cemetery to make the slope and another three of rip-rap stone which had to be hand placed on top of a weed barrier that first laid over the fill dirt? another load of #8 gravel. Then about 350 feet of the industrial grade chain link fence because the farm fence just would not fit well in following the contours of the cemetery. And before that there was the volunteer work to remove the scrap metal and trash and probe the cemetery and drag and dump all the junk that was on the grounds. Followed by considerable brush and tree removal. Then the Cottrell family, at considerable cost had a GPR study done that indicated nearly 90 graves in the cemetery. A cemetery we had only about 37 names for. The GPR guy marked the places where graves were most likely present with colored chalk. Then I came on short notice that evening and drove short pieced of rebar to mark the most likely location of the head stone for each grave. Later, Greg, the Twp. Trustee came by and put flags on those locations and drove the stakes into the ground, thus marking the locations for a metal detector to find for years to come. This cemetery required a lot of work and expense to save. I am sure there are others here that do a lot of work on their own time and spend some of their money getting the job done. But then again, it gets my dander up when folks question our commitment and that is exactly what was done in the forum by more than one poster and thus I felt it necessary the challenge those statements. Even today I see a message saying they hope none of their ancestors are buried in Madison county. A statement that indicates that person would rather have had us leave that junk yard alone and let it erode away slide down the hill with her ancestors bones and all. Quite a statement. You have your opinion about concrete and we have ours. I will say I will not be so judgmental about your methods. I figure reasonable folks look at the cemeteries around them, determine what the problems are and what the primary mechanisms of damage to grave markers are given the local situation and conditions, and then make decisions as to what is the best method to preserve the markers given what they have seen and learned. Learned not just from seminars and books but from what they actually see in their cemeteries. Rob Hains.

In a message dated 9/7/2005 10:51:11 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, KidClerk@aol.com writes: "Have you ever considered pouring your base with a slot in it instead of sticking the stone directly in the concrete? Would this not accomplish what you are after without the ramifications of the stone not having any means to 'breathe'? Then if the stone is broken off in the future, it can be easily removed for repair. What about pouring the base wide enough so that the mower does not have to get so close to the stone and leaving it at ground level?" Oh yes I have. I have also considered building curbs independent of but surrounding the headstones. But come back to two problems, water and weeds. The way I see it Freeze thaw freeze in the slot and maple or "trash" trees like black locusts are both problems with these possible solutions involving a slot in a poured base at or above grade level. Further I thought the objection to the concrete was that it encases the stone and not that it is raised above grade to make a curb? Since concrete has been used years before by the commission and well before it, I have seen many markers that have been set in concrete for decades and have not seen evidence that the concrete has caused the stone to fracture. The vast majority that I have seen broken appear to be broken several inches above the concrete which gives the impression that direct physical force as would occur in vandalism or possibly a mower deck. Am I wrong in assuming that such a stress fracture would occur very close to the cement surface and not several inches above it? As for cost? Labor for repair and resetting of each civilian head stone in concrete costs $150.00, those with frames and additional $25.00 in labor and the total cost of the aluminum for three markers was about $46.50 as I recall. We do what we do in order to gain the maximum repair for the buck. In my time on the commission we have restored quite a few cemeteries and done limited work on some of those that needed. If our method is so bad then how come it WORKS! From my observations I do not have even markers placed in concrete years ago snapping off from compression or disintegrating or even discoloring from salts. As for you comment about what is "wrong", then I will say I think you folks are NOT the authority no matter how much you wish to be. There was one cemetery (Frazier cemetery in Pipe Creek Twp. I think it was) we in the commission did all the repair work ourselves where we salvaged several markers that had been in concrete. I cleaned the concrete off the bases of those stones myself with hammer and chisel without damage to any of them as I recall. Those old headstones had obviously been repaired many years ago with the use of a frame nor dowels and the reset in concrete and that repair had eventually failed it appeared. Of course your seminar did not approve of the use of concrete but then again, as I recall the guy doing the instruction did NOTHING BUT repair the stones in his county and maintain the cemeteries of the county as a paid employee. So no worrys in his life time about how the cemeteries would be maintained and mowed once he restored them. So we adopted his method for setting the military markers because they are so stout and tough and long. But for the old tablets which are relatively fragile we, after discussion within the commission decided, based on our experience in our county, decided on the method you all here are focusing on and objecting to. Rob Hains

Hold on here Rob, I am listening and following through on this with few opinions and nothing else. I too have wondered how stones (especially those veteran stones) set in concrete 60 and longer years ago have lasted. I have tried floating slabs which snapped before they compressed the stone, appears cheap concrete is deadliest. I have issues on both sides of the fence, your side, too. I don't have all the answers, and I use a few things learned on this list, altough I don't use any of the products widely recommended. I have seen stones set in concrete by the WPA and are still there. I have seen stones where its been done elsewhere and failed. Believe me, I am far from "great". I will make a trip to your graveyard and look for myself, I don't think looking at any pics would have helped me anyway. I have always poked my nose into work projects that are mentioned on here. And I am going to respect views on all sides, I don't know that there is an expert out there, but I'm here to learn more. Terse as these discussions have gotten, I'm not out to get anyone. I'm all ears to everyones voice. Thanks, Lee Creed

In a message dated 09/07/2005 12:34:16 PM Central Standard Time, gregory.l.valentine@delphi.com writes: I can understand most of your thoughts here, but not all of them. Come by and look at the extensive work being done on Chapman/Cottrell Cemetery in Green Township. Don't just look at the view from your chair in front of that computer screen. As I mentioned the other day, maybe they aren't putting the stones back together properly, but at least they are doing something and the results look great. I sure could not do their work. Mr. Valentine: Maybe you should come up to Riverside Cemetery here in Brook and see what proper restoration looks like. It's in progress as we speak, and I'll put my end results next to yours for comparison any day. No, I don't do it myself either. But I also know the money being spent is not in vain and won't have to be spent again to undo what's being done now. That's part of what is going on here....undoing what some 'well intentioned' person did some 30 or 40 years ago. I have served in township and county government positions and have vast experience getting the max out of a tax dollar, especially as a volunteer fire chief. I'm lucky...money is not an issue any longer, and that's why we can do what we're doing and do it right. Believe me, it was well worth the wait. Yes, it's your money and you're the one ultimately responsible for what is being done. The fact that you admit that the work being done may not be exactly right but is being done anyway might be one reason why people are calling for a revamping of the township form of government. It's not the intentions I have issue with. You're hearts are in the right places, if you would just get your heads out of the sand.... Again, it's your county and I have no known relatives there. I'll leave the heated debate for those with a horse in this race. I appreciate what you do, I just don't agree with how you do it, and I was hoping to encourage you to explore other options. From the sounds of things, your minds are made up and none of us need to waste our time trying to convince you otherwise. -Kyle D. Conrad

>"As I further my genealogy research, I pray I do not find a family member >buried in Madison Co." > >Better here than in many other counties and states. You'll have a >cemetery to walk through and a gravestone to look at. Melody > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Usa10sfgaa@aol.com [mailto:Usa10sfgaa@aol.com] >Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:58 AM >To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny > >As member of the Madison county cemetery commission I was heavily involved >in the restoration of the Chapman- Cottrell cemetery. I just got on the >mailing list in response to e-mails forwarded to me from it by others. >The MCCC is a volunteer commission. We work under the authority of, and >are >funded by the County Commissioners office. I have been on the commission >for about 7 years. We try to stay out of politics as much as absolutly >possible because our mission is to identify and restore the cemeteries in >the county >to the best extent possible. In past years we had a budget of $10,000 a >year. This year, because of the financial strains so many counties in >Indiana >are suffering and the economic decline of the County Seat (Anderson) over >the >last couple decades since GM has pulled out the many plants it has here, >our >budget was cut in half. > >Now, for those that already did not know it, you have some back ground. > > >I want to provide some insight into our commissions thinking and experience > >(which BTW has a history of restoring cemeteries in Madison county over >twice >as long as the INPCRP has existed). These are not excuses but explanations > >as to why we restore and remount cemetery head stones the way we do. I do >not >feel we need to appologize for anything and have been disturbed that some >posters on this list think they have "just desserts" to dish out to us. > > >1. Concrete: > > >We set the tablet style headstone markers in concrete because we have no >control over who is mowing and how the cemeteries are mowed. Every year we >get >calls from the public from various townships expressing concern about the >maintenance of this cemetery or that one. >After the MCCC identifies and restores a cemetery the actual maintenance of > >the cemetery is passed to the county trustee.The trustees are elected and >change frequently in the 14 townships of Madison County. Some trustees take >their > charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously, others do >not and the only pressure that can be brought on those that do not is purely > >grass roots political pressure from the citizens of the township. > > >Vandalism, trees, livestock, and MOWING are among the primary modes by >which >old headstones in our county cemeteries get damaged. Most of the pioneer >cemeteries in the county don't get mowed but once a month if that often and >thus >the vegetation gets pretty high. No matter how much one tries, no matter >how >careful one is, accidents are going to happen on occasion and we have no >guarantee that those mowing the cemeteries in the fourteen townships in the > >county will always be as careful as we would like. . What other pieces of >machinery other than mowing equipment are operated near the markers in our >inactive >cemeteries on a regular basis? So the use of a concrete foundation with a >curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made >from >softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing and. I have seen >plenty of >these old headstones scared by just the repetitive use of a weed wacker >and >others more severely damaged at ground level by what obviously was the >passage of a mower deck. Thus the decision to use concrete with a curb is a >trade >off of trying to protect the headstones we reset. >I have seen comments about salts attacking the stone in the headstones. I >have seen no such problem here in any of the cemeteries I have visited and >inspected which is the vast majority of those listed on our website). >What I >have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two > >above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete >flush >with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks. > >We apply RTV silicone or epoxy at the stone-concrete interface in order to >seal it. > >The concrete under grade is installed to be about 30" deep with the lower >half configured in a shape like and inverted pyramid to forestall up-lifting > >from frost. We simply do not have the money to pay for the extra labor and > >material to go deep enough to get below the frostline. Further, as anyone >who >has actually dug in these old cemeteries knows, there is a fair chance of >hitting an actual grave as you approach 4' of depth. It simply is not >possible >to establish the exact location of the rows of head stones in some cases. > > >2. Epoxy: > >My company sells Polygem Inc. epoxies for industrial uses through out the >US >and Canada and the manufacturer of that brand I sell produces many >varieties >and is one of the nations leading experts on polymer rocks, plants, etc, as > >used in museum displays. His company also has a whole "Mine Products" line >for epoxies and polymers used to secure anchors which keep the roofs of >underground mines from collapsing and a "Construction Products" division >which among >many other products, has one that is specified by the Illinois Hwy. >department for anchoring rebar and steel pins in repairs on that states >concrete >roads. I suspect that Kurt Moranuse, President and Manager of Polygem, >Inc. in >west Chicago, who is a chemical engineer who formulates and manufactures >epoxies, and who is the one who recommended the epoxy we use on our markers >has >forgotten more about their proper use in about any application than anyone >posting on the INPCRP board. And I suspect that I have applied a greater >quantity of various types of epoxies in various industrial applications >than >anyone posting messages at the INPCRP. > >3. Framing: > > At one time steel was used to splint fragmented headstones in this county. > >Shortly after I joined the commission I looked into finding a way to >improve >on that method because the steel rusts and stains the headstones. Drilling > >and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than >framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the >work we >get done for our limited dollar. I looked into using everything from PVC to > >stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one >cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us. We >spray the >portion of the frame that will be mounted in the concrete with zinc >chromate >primer to ward off electrolysis and this is in fact a common method used by > >design engineers in buildings, water treatment plants, etc where >aluminum-concrete interface is required. Anodized aluminum is just too >expensive. PVC not >strong enough. > >4. General > >We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various >books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, >attended a >INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back. I >wonder >how many of you numerous critics here have used their own personal assets >to >help build a bridge for heavy equipment just to gain access to a cemetery >that needs restored? How many here have driven and walked to and into >EVERY >single known pioneer cemetery in your county at your own expense in order >to >get GPS coordinates for those cemeteries? How many here have used their own > >time to lay out a grid system on paper then on the ground to plot the >locations >of over 50 head stones. Then carefully removed those headstones using >their >own equipment so a cemetery, having been overrun by livestock for years, >can >be graded and landscaped before the headstones are replaced and remounted? > >How many here have researched and searched for years to try and locate the >grave of every Revolutionary war veteran in their county. How many here >spent >the time and effort to put together and maintain a web-site of the quality >of >the MCCC site? How many here have spent hours probing inch by inch for >headstones. How many here have spent the hours and hours and hours of >research >required to try and locate the graves to best extent possible. Members of >the >MCCC have done these things and many more and meet the last Wednesday of 11 > >months of the year to coordiante our ongoing efforts. We are proud of those > >efforts and our results and that includes our results at the Chapman >Cottrell >cemetery which have come under such heavy criticism in this forum. > > >Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our >restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here >in >Madison County. I am not, however open to statements or implications of >that we >"are not dedicated", or deserve some "just desserts", etc because, quite >frankly, to my knowledge, I nor the MCCC answers to the IMPCRP or any of >it's >members. I am here for constructive suggestions, if you have none, then I >will >drop off this list. > >Have at it. > >Rob Hains > >Member, Madison County Cemetery Commission. > > > > > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of >"UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version)

Mr. Conrad, I can understand most of your thoughts here, but not all of them. Come by and look at the extensive work being done on Chapman/Cottrell Cemetery in Green Township. Don't just look at the view from your chair in front of that computer screen. As I mentioned the other day, maybe they aren't putting the stones back together properly, but at least they are doing something and the results look great. I sure could not do their work. No, Mr. Haines has no control over mowing crews now or in 30 years from now. I can tell you that at the present time the stones are not being hit by mowers. I can tell you my son and I weedeat around every stone so they do not get skinned up with mowers. I can tell you as the current township trustee, with my son and I doing the mowing, we do care. If we did not care, the cemeteries appearance would not be what it is. Look at any in my township. I get compliments all the time on our cemeteries appearance. We walk 1/4 mile uphill carrying weedeaters on our shoulders to trim one. No, I will not always be the trustee and the stones may get skinned up as many have been in past years. I have some small and fragile infant stones and other fragile stones broken about an inch or two above the ground. A concrete base makes sense also. I am just glad to see the restoration progress here as compared to the way the Chapman/Cottrell cemetery looked a few short years ago. As long as caring people are in trustee positions stones and markers are safe from scrapes and dings. However, if the Indiana General Assembly gets their way in the next few sessions, all township trustees get a pink slip. That should be your worry as well as other taxpayers. I am always suggesting folks let their elected official know their feelings as far as whether they want a local resident controlling the cemeteries or a county commissioner who possibly does not know where the cemetery is located, and possibly hires a bunch of illegal immigrants to mow for $4 per hour because they are cheap. That should be a major focus of township taxpayers as I see it. Yes, the township poor relief system needs fine tuned, especially in the larger cities. There is not a need to fine tune fire coverage usually, cemetery care, noxious weed control or fence viewing which, are all part of township responsibilities. You mention the limited dollar. Do you know how hard some trustees have to fight to get tax dollars to keep the cemeteries maintained? I am fortunate because I do not have to fight with my advisory board nor the state to get cemetery funds. Gotta go...thanks for reading, Greg Valentine Green Township Trustee/Assessor Madison County -----Original Message----- From: KidClerk@aol.com [mailto:KidClerk@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 10:51 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny Mr. Haines....let me offer a few more comments in response to your latest post. "The name is "Hains"." Sorry about that. My font made it look like Harris. "How do you prevent mower decks from damaging headstones when you have no control over those mowing? Particularly if we went to the expense of drilling and doweling and then resetting the markers in gravel and/or foundation stones?" You don't...until you are assured that won't happen through the township trustee or whomever is in charge. Would you spend thousands of dollars on restoring a 1957 Chevy if you didn't have a garage to store it in? First things first...one of the responsibilities of a county funded commission is to educate people in the proper maintenance of pioneer cemeteries, whether that be elected trustees or private land owners. However, before you can educate, you must also be willing to practice the same. "What expert here can suggest a better epoxy than the Polygem product we use and why would they declare it better?" Since I'm not one of those experts, I'll let them answer this. "Another poster here suggested that we were just randomly placing markers in the Chapman Cottrell cemetery. Simply not true. The fact is that we had reasonable data for the location of most of the headstones recovered." I understand 100%. In fact, there's no guarantee that the stones that were still standing were in the correct location after over 100 years of time. You do what you can do. Now I want to quote some of your comments from your original post and offer some practical solutions that you claim I didn't do... "Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously." Work only in these townships until the others either 1)change their mindset 2) leave office or 3) get enough pressure placed on them to do what is right. "So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing" Have you ever considered pouring your base with a slot in it instead of sticking the stone directly in the concrete? Would this not accomplish what you are after without the ramifications of the stone not having any means to 'breathe'? Then if the stone is broken off in the future, it can be easily removed for repair. What about pouring the base wide enough so that the mower does not have to get so close to the stone and leaving it at ground level? "What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks." How do you intend to repair these stones since the rest of the stone is embedded in concrete? Would you agree that utilizing a slotted foundation would make this type of repair much easier? And would you consider that the pressure that the concrete was placing on this stone contributed to the brittle nature that led to the break? "Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar." To me this is simply an admission that you know better, but you still do it to cut costs and corners. "I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us." Properly restored stones do not require any of this. The time and money you spend on this alone would be better utilized doing the things that you claim you can't do. "We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back" And at what portion of that seminar were you taught the procedures that you continue to defend? The organizers of these workshops should be made aware if someone is participating in them and passing on improper techniques to people such as you and I who are wanting to do what is right. "Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County" Right is always right, and wrong is always wrong, no matter how much money you throw at it. My question to you is simple... if modifying your methods to conform with more widely accepted and practiced procedures meant getting only half as many stones restored in a years' time due to your budget constraints, would you do it? Would you be willing to solicit the expertise that exists on this mail list to help you tweak your procedures and allow others to come help you and show you how much better some of these procedures can be and how the end results are more in line with how the stone was originally intended to look? No aluminum...no concrete..no stainless steel. The work you have done to identify these cemeteries, obtain GPS coordinates, identify veterans' burials, etc. is wonderful, and yes, I've done many of the same things in my own cemetery. I've spent my own and raised money to work in a pioneer cemetery in Henry County that the trustee refuses to maintain once the brush is cleared. These stones still sit broken..graves are sunken...ATV's still drive through there and trees continue to grow unattended. But I would never endorse a hastily organized restoration project if it meant doing it using the techniques you defend. I'll wait...either until money becomes available or I can fund it myself. I, too, was working to restore this cemetery before the INPCRP came into existence. But as much as it pains me to visit there and witness the disgraceful way it is maintained, I also wouldn't endorse an improper restoration no matter if were the Henry Co. cemetery commission or a group of concerned decendents. Since I have no vested interest in your county, I will not make any further comment on what you do or how you do it. I only responded to you because I did post an earlier message and only wanted to encourage you to understand why many people on this list feel the way they do. Some are so emphatic about it that their frustration is obvious in their posts to this list. Believe it or not, we don't always even agree amongst ourselves on a handful of topics. But most of us can look at the wider picture and continue to work towards a common goal and agree to disagree on certain topics along the way. That does not diminish the work that any of us do...it only reinforces the fact that there's always room for improvement. I would only think that with the amount of time and money you have invested, you would want to see that none of it is spent in vain. So while we continue to disagree on methods, we can continue to agree in principal that our pioneer cemeteries are in need of saving. You may continue to save them your way...but I'll continue to save them my way. -Kyle D. Conrad ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. **************************************************************************************** Note: If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Thank you. ****************************************************************************************

Mr. Haines....let me offer a few more comments in response to your latest post. "The name is "Hains"." Sorry about that. My font made it look like Harris. "How do you prevent mower decks from damaging headstones when you have no control over those mowing? Particularly if we went to the expense of drilling and doweling and then resetting the markers in gravel and/or foundation stones?" You don't...until you are assured that won't happen through the township trustee or whomever is in charge. Would you spend thousands of dollars on restoring a 1957 Chevy if you didn't have a garage to store it in? First things first...one of the responsibilities of a county funded commission is to educate people in the proper maintenance of pioneer cemeteries, whether that be elected trustees or private land owners. However, before you can educate, you must also be willing to practice the same. "What expert here can suggest a better epoxy than the Polygem product we use and why would they declare it better?" Since I'm not one of those experts, I'll let them answer this. "Another poster here suggested that we were just randomly placing markers in the Chapman Cottrell cemetery. Simply not true. The fact is that we had reasonable data for the location of most of the headstones recovered." I understand 100%. In fact, there's no guarantee that the stones that were still standing were in the correct location after over 100 years of time. You do what you can do. Now I want to quote some of your comments from your original post and offer some practical solutions that you claim I didn't do... "Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously." Work only in these townships until the others either 1)change their mindset 2) leave office or 3) get enough pressure placed on them to do what is right. "So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing" Have you ever considered pouring your base with a slot in it instead of sticking the stone directly in the concrete? Would this not accomplish what you are after without the ramifications of the stone not having any means to 'breathe'? Then if the stone is broken off in the future, it can be easily removed for repair. What about pouring the base wide enough so that the mower does not have to get so close to the stone and leaving it at ground level? "What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks." How do you intend to repair these stones since the rest of the stone is embedded in concrete? Would you agree that utilizing a slotted foundation would make this type of repair much easier? And would you consider that the pressure that the concrete was placing on this stone contributed to the brittle nature that led to the break? "Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar." To me this is simply an admission that you know better, but you still do it to cut costs and corners. "I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us." Properly restored stones do not require any of this. The time and money you spend on this alone would be better utilized doing the things that you claim you can't do. "We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back" And at what portion of that seminar were you taught the procedures that you continue to defend? The organizers of these workshops should be made aware if someone is participating in them and passing on improper techniques to people such as you and I who are wanting to do what is right. "Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County" Right is always right, and wrong is always wrong, no matter how much money you throw at it. My question to you is simple... if modifying your methods to conform with more widely accepted and practiced procedures meant getting only half as many stones restored in a years' time due to your budget constraints, would you do it? Would you be willing to solicit the expertise that exists on this mail list to help you tweak your procedures and allow others to come help you and show you how much better some of these procedures can be and how the end results are more in line with how the stone was originally intended to look? No aluminum...no concrete..no stainless steel. The work you have done to identify these cemeteries, obtain GPS coordinates, identify veterans' burials, etc. is wonderful, and yes, I've done many of the same things in my own cemetery. I've spent my own and raised money to work in a pioneer cemetery in Henry County that the trustee refuses to maintain once the brush is cleared. These stones still sit broken..graves are sunken...ATV's still drive through there and trees continue to grow unattended. But I would never endorse a hastily organized restoration project if it meant doing it using the techniques you defend. I'll wait...either until money becomes available or I can fund it myself. I, too, was working to restore this cemetery before the INPCRP came into existence. But as much as it pains me to visit there and witness the disgraceful way it is maintained, I also wouldn't endorse an improper restoration no matter if were the Henry Co. cemetery commission or a group of concerned decendents. Since I have no vested interest in your county, I will not make any further comment on what you do or how you do it. I only responded to you because I did post an earlier message and only wanted to encourage you to understand why many people on this list feel the way they do. Some are so emphatic about it that their frustration is obvious in their posts to this list. Believe it or not, we don't always even agree amongst ourselves on a handful of topics. But most of us can look at the wider picture and continue to work towards a common goal and agree to disagree on certain topics along the way. That does not diminish the work that any of us do...it only reinforces the fact that there's always room for improvement. I would only think that with the amount of time and money you have invested, you would want to see that none of it is spent in vain. So while we continue to disagree on methods, we can continue to agree in principal that our pioneer cemeteries are in need of saving. You may continue to save them your way...but I'll continue to save them my way. -Kyle D. Conrad

Dear Mr. Hains, I am quite envious of your cemetery commission's budget. Why, in Hancock Co. we are quite lucky to receive anything and have had our highest budget ever this year of $2,300. Henry Co. receives nothing from the county and relies on donations. I am disheartened to hear you complain about your budget being cut in half. We would be extremely appreciative to receive even that! Even with our minimal budget we still restore our cemeteries correctly. Concrete is wrong, pure and simple. That is cemetery restoration 101. Am I an expert in cemetery restoration? Heavens, no. We only do simple repairs that we are comfortable with doing ourselves such as cleaning stones, leveling and resetting them in their bases. We leave the more difficult repairs, such as breaks, to the professionals and hire that out. What are the rules of cemetery restoration? Again, #1 Do no harm. #2 When in doubt, consult an expert. We make sure we do everything right, or we don't do it at all. Since you are new to our discussion list, you do not know the folks here that dedicate most of their time to cemeteries. WE HAVE used our OWN money, our OWN tools, and our OWN time to do something that we whole-heartedly believe in - restoring respect to our cemeteries; and we still do use our own money and will continue to use our own money and our time. You are not the only one, Mr. Hains. As I further my genealogy research, I pray I do not find a family member buried in Madison Co. Please, stop using concrete. It is not my intent to anger you or belittle your volunteer work. We need more people to gain interest in what we are trying to do. What we ask of you is that you restore the cemeteries correctly so we may enjoy them now and our future generations can enjoy them later. Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Usa10sfgaa@aol.com [mailto:Usa10sfgaa@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 11:58 AM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Madison Ctny As member of the Madison county cemetery commission I was heavily involved in the restoration of the Chapman- Cottrell cemetery. I just got on the mailing list in response to e-mails forwarded to me from it by others. The MCCC is a volunteer commission. We work under the authority of, and are funded by the County Commissioners office. I have been on the commission for about 7 years. We try to stay out of politics as much as absolutly possible because our mission is to identify and restore the cemeteries in the county to the best extent possible. In past years we had a budget of $10,000 a year. This year, because of the financial strains so many counties in Indiana are suffering and the economic decline of the County Seat (Anderson) over the last couple decades since GM has pulled out the many plants it has here, our budget was cut in half. Now, for those that already did not know it, you have some back ground. I want to provide some insight into our commissions thinking and experience (which BTW has a history of restoring cemeteries in Madison county over twice as long as the INPCRP has existed). These are not excuses but explanations as to why we restore and remount cemetery head stones the way we do. I do not feel we need to appologize for anything and have been disturbed that some posters on this list think they have "just desserts" to dish out to us. 1. Concrete: We set the tablet style headstone markers in concrete because we have no control over who is mowing and how the cemeteries are mowed. Every year we get calls from the public from various townships expressing concern about the maintenance of this cemetery or that one. After the MCCC identifies and restores a cemetery the actual maintenance of the cemetery is passed to the county trustee.The trustees are elected and change frequently in the 14 townships of Madison County. Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously, others do not and the only pressure that can be brought on those that do not is purely grass roots political pressure from the citizens of the township. Vandalism, trees, livestock, and MOWING are among the primary modes by which old headstones in our county cemeteries get damaged. Most of the pioneer cemeteries in the county don't get mowed but once a month if that often and thus the vegetation gets pretty high. No matter how much one tries, no matter how careful one is, accidents are going to happen on occasion and we have no guarantee that those mowing the cemeteries in the fourteen townships in the county will always be as careful as we would like. . What other pieces of machinery other than mowing equipment are operated near the markers in our inactive cemeteries on a regular basis? So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing and. I have seen plenty of these old headstones scared by just the repetitive use of a weed wacker and others more severely damaged at ground level by what obviously was the passage of a mower deck. Thus the decision to use concrete with a curb is a trade off of trying to protect the headstones we reset. I have seen comments about salts attacking the stone in the headstones. I have seen no such problem here in any of the cemeteries I have visited and inspected which is the vast majority of those listed on our website). What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks. We apply RTV silicone or epoxy at the stone-concrete interface in order to seal it. The concrete under grade is installed to be about 30" deep with the lower half configured in a shape like and inverted pyramid to forestall up-lifting from frost. We simply do not have the money to pay for the extra labor and material to go deep enough to get below the frostline. Further, as anyone who has actually dug in these old cemeteries knows, there is a fair chance of hitting an actual grave as you approach 4' of depth. It simply is not possible to establish the exact location of the rows of head stones in some cases. 2. Epoxy: My company sells Polygem Inc. epoxies for industrial uses through out the US and Canada and the manufacturer of that brand I sell produces many varieties and is one of the nations leading experts on polymer rocks, plants, etc, as used in museum displays. His company also has a whole "Mine Products" line for epoxies and polymers used to secure anchors which keep the roofs of underground mines from collapsing and a "Construction Products" division which among many other products, has one that is specified by the Illinois Hwy. department for anchoring rebar and steel pins in repairs on that states concrete roads. I suspect that Kurt Moranuse, President and Manager of Polygem, Inc. in west Chicago, who is a chemical engineer who formulates and manufactures epoxies, and who is the one who recommended the epoxy we use on our markers has forgotten more about their proper use in about any application than anyone posting on the INPCRP board. And I suspect that I have applied a greater quantity of various types of epoxies in various industrial applications than anyone posting messages at the INPCRP. 3. Framing: At one time steel was used to splint fragmented headstones in this county. Shortly after I joined the commission I looked into finding a way to improve on that method because the steel rusts and stains the headstones. Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar. I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us. We spray the portion of the frame that will be mounted in the concrete with zinc chromate primer to ward off electrolysis and this is in fact a common method used by design engineers in buildings, water treatment plants, etc where aluminum-concrete interface is required. Anodized aluminum is just too expensive. PVC not strong enough. 4. General We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back. I wonder how many of you numerous critics here have used their own personal assets to help build a bridge for heavy equipment just to gain access to a cemetery that needs restored? How many here have driven and walked to and into EVERY single known pioneer cemetery in your county at your own expense in order to get GPS coordinates for those cemeteries? How many here have used their own time to lay out a grid system on paper then on the ground to plot the locations of over 50 head stones. Then carefully removed those headstones using their own equipment so a cemetery, having been overrun by livestock for years, can be graded and landscaped before the headstones are replaced and remounted? How many here have researched and searched for years to try and locate the grave of every Revolutionary war veteran in their county. How many here spent the time and effort to put together and maintain a web-site of the quality of the MCCC site? How many here have spent hours probing inch by inch for headstones. How many here have spent the hours and hours and hours of research required to try and locate the graves to best extent possible. Members of the MCCC have done these things and many more and meet the last Wednesday of 11 months of the year to coordiante our ongoing efforts. We are proud of those efforts and our results and that includes our results at the Chapman Cottrell cemetery which have come under such heavy criticism in this forum. Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County. I am not, however open to statements or implications of that we "are not dedicated", or deserve some "just desserts", etc because, quite frankly, to my knowledge, I nor the MCCC answers to the IMPCRP or any of it's members. I am here for constructive suggestions, if you have none, then I will drop off this list. Have at it. Rob Hains Member, Madison County Cemetery Commission. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

In a message dated 9/6/2005 6:08:33 P.M. US Eastern Standard Time, KidClerk@aol.com writes: Mr. Harris: I'm not going to go into much detail other than to say I don't think anyone questions your groups' motives, sincerety, and dedication in what you are doing. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- The name is "Hains". And yes our dedication has been questioned here. I quote : "Best practice techniques don't belong to just a few people but have been established by many practitioners and developed through many years of experience. Those responsible in Madison County should accept their just desserts, get over it, and get on with doing it right. If they don't have that kind of commitment, they should get out of it. Sharon Mills" Further, I see not one single practical suggestion in you post concerning the issues I posted. How do you prevent mower decks from damaging headstones when you have no control over those mowing? Particularly if we went to the expense of drilling and doweling and then resetting the markers in gravel and/or foundation stones? What expert here can suggest a better epoxy than the Polygem product we use and why would they declare it better? Another poster here suggested that we were just randomly placing markers in the Chapman Cottrell cemetery. Simply not true. The fact is that we had reasonable data for the location of most of the headstones recovered. As with all cemeteries we work in when we know that a person was buried there and that their original civilian headstone was destroyed or removed, we check to see if they are veterans. If they were then we apply for the VA headstones for them. Better than not having any marker at all. And since the Cottrell family was active in this and those new veterans headstones marked the graves of their ancestors there can be no question that the families desires were not met. Rob Hains

Mr. Harris: I'm not going to go into much detail other than to say I don't think anyone questions your groups' motives, sincerety, and dedication in what you are doing. The only thing questioned is the procedures by which you do them and the potential long term adverse effects those practices have on pioneer tombstones in your county. I have witnessed first hand both spectrums and can assure you I would rather have my ancestors' stones properly restored and preserved, even if it meant waiting longer to have it done because money is tight. To put this into perspective using an analogy that I'm more familiar with... The time, effort, and money you have spent to only utilize improper methods is like me...a volunteer firefighter, spending years of my time flipping pancakes and sausage, fighting with town boards and township trustees, and doing all I can to raise money for a new firetruck to help protect my community and then when it finally arrives...filling the water tank with diesel fuel to use in extinguishing fires. Doesn't make much sense, does it? That's how I see what your group is doing to your county's pioneer cemeteries. Your hearts are in the right place....there's no question about it. The only questions pertain to the long term effects of what you are doing, and whether your time and money could be better spent using more accepted techniques. But, yes, in the end, it is your group that has to answer for what you are doing and how you are doing it. If you can look at your end result and the end results of what's being done in my local cemetery as we speak and cemeteries all over our great state and not be bothered with what you have done, then more power to you. You will probably not want to remain on this mail list for an extended period of time. Kyle D. Conrad > As member of the Madison county cemetery commission I was heavily involved > > in the restoration of the Chapman- Cottrell cemetery. I just got on the > mailing list in response to e-mails forwarded to me from it by others. > The MCCC is a volunteer commission. We work under the authority of, and > are > funded by the County Commissioners office. I have been on the commission > for about 7 years. We try to stay out of politics as much as absolutly > possible because our mission is to identify and restore the cemeteries in > the county > to the best extent possible. In past years we had a budget of $10,000 a > year. This year, because of the financial strains so many counties in > Indiana > are suffering and the economic decline of the County Seat (Anderson) over > the > last couple decades since GM has pulled out the many plants it has here, > our > budget was cut in half. > > Now, for those that already did not know it, you have some back ground. > > > I want to provide some insight into our commissions thinking and experience > > (which BTW has a history of restoring cemeteries in Madison county over > twice > as long as the INPCRP has existed). These are not excuses but explanations > > as to why we restore and remount cemetery head stones the way we do. I do > not > feel we need to appologize for anything and have been disturbed that some > posters on this list think they have "just desserts" to dish out to us. > > > 1. Concrete: > > > We set the tablet style headstone markers in concrete because we have no > control over who is mowing and how the cemeteries are mowed. Every year we > get > calls from the public from various townships expressing concern about the > maintenance of this cemetery or that one. > After the MCCC identifies and restores a cemetery the actual maintenance of > > the cemetery is passed to the county trustee.The trustees are elected and > change frequently in the 14 townships of Madison County. Some trustees take > their > charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously, others do > not and the only pressure that can be brought on those that do not is purely > > grass roots political pressure from the citizens of the township. > > > Vandalism, trees, livestock, and MOWING are among the primary modes by > which > old headstones in our county cemeteries get damaged. Most of the pioneer > cemeteries in the county don't get mowed but once a month if that often and > thus > the vegetation gets pretty high. No matter how much one tries, no matter > how > careful one is, accidents are going to happen on occasion and we have no > guarantee that those mowing the cemeteries in the fourteen townships in the > > county will always be as careful as we would like. . What other pieces of > machinery other than mowing equipment are operated near the markers in our > inactive > cemeteries on a regular basis? So the use of a concrete foundation with a > curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made > from > softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing and. I have seen > plenty of > these old headstones scared by just the repetitive use of a weed wacker > and > others more severely damaged at ground level by what obviously was the > passage of a mower deck. Thus the decision to use concrete with a curb is a > trade > off of trying to protect the headstones we reset. > I have seen comments about salts attacking the stone in the headstones. I > have seen no such problem here in any of the cemeteries I have visited and > inspected which is the vast majority of those listed on our website). > What I > have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two > > above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete > flush > with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks. > > We apply RTV silicone or epoxy at the stone-concrete interface in order to > seal it. > > The concrete under grade is installed to be about 30" deep with the lower > half configured in a shape like and inverted pyramid to forestall up-lifting > > from frost. We simply do not have the money to pay for the extra labor and > > material to go deep enough to get below the frostline. Further, as anyone > who > has actually dug in these old cemeteries knows, there is a fair chance of > hitting an actual grave as you approach 4' of depth. It simply is not > possible > to establish the exact location of the rows of head stones in some cases. > > > 2. Epoxy: > > My company sells Polygem Inc. epoxies for industrial uses through out the > US > and Canada and the manufacturer of that brand I sell produces many > varieties > and is one of the nations leading experts on polymer rocks, plants, etc, as > > used in museum displays. His company also has a whole "Mine Products" line > for epoxies and polymers used to secure anchors which keep the roofs of > underground mines from collapsing and a "Construction Products" division > which among > many other products, has one that is specified by the Illinois Hwy. > department for anchoring rebar and steel pins in repairs on that states > concrete > roads. I suspect that Kurt Moranuse, President and Manager of Polygem, > Inc. in > west Chicago, who is a chemical engineer who formulates and manufactures > epoxies, and who is the one who recommended the epoxy we use on our markers > has > forgotten more about their proper use in about any application than anyone > posting on the INPCRP board. And I suspect that I have applied a greater > quantity of various types of epoxies in various industrial applications > than > anyone posting messages at the INPCRP. > > 3. Framing: > > At one time steel was used to splint fragmented headstones in this county. > > Shortly after I joined the commission I looked into finding a way to > improve > on that method because the steel rusts and stains the headstones. Drilling > > and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than > framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the > work we > get done for our limited dollar. I looked into using everything from PVC to > > stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one > cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us. We > spray the > portion of the frame that will be mounted in the concrete with zinc > chromate > primer to ward off electrolysis and this is in fact a common method used by > > design engineers in buildings, water treatment plants, etc where > aluminum-concrete interface is required. Anodized aluminum is just too > expensive. PVC not > strong enough. > > 4. General > > We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various > books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, > attended a > INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back. I > wonder > how many of you numerous critics here have used their own personal assets > to > help build a bridge for heavy equipment just to gain access to a cemetery > that needs restored? How many here have driven and walked to and into > EVERY > single known pioneer cemetery in your county at your own expense in order > to > get GPS coordinates for those cemeteries? How many here have used their own > > time to lay out a grid system on paper then on the ground to plot the > locations > of over 50 head stones. Then carefully removed those headstones using > their > own equipment so a cemetery, having been overrun by livestock for years, > can > be graded and landscaped before the headstones are replaced and remounted? > > How many here have researched and searched for years to try and locate the > grave of every Revolutionary war veteran in their county. How many here > spent > the time and effort to put together and maintain a web-site of the quality > of > the MCCC site? How many here have spent hours probing inch by inch for > headstones. How many here have spent the hours and hours and hours of > research > required to try and locate the graves to best extent possible. Members of > the > MCCC have done these things and many more and meet the last Wednesday of 11 > > months of the year to coordiante our ongoing efforts. We are proud of those > > efforts and our results and that includes our results at the Chapman > Cottrell > cemetery which have come under such heavy criticism in this forum. > > > Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our > restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here > in > Madison County. I am not, however open to statements or implications of > that we > "are not dedicated", or deserve some "just desserts", etc because, quite > frankly, to my knowledge, I nor the MCCC answers to the IMPCRP or any of > it's > members. I am here for constructive suggestions, if you have none, then I > will > drop off this list. > > Have at it. > > Rob Hains > >

As member of the Madison county cemetery commission I was heavily involved in the restoration of the Chapman- Cottrell cemetery. I just got on the mailing list in response to e-mails forwarded to me from it by others. The MCCC is a volunteer commission. We work under the authority of, and are funded by the County Commissioners office. I have been on the commission for about 7 years. We try to stay out of politics as much as absolutly possible because our mission is to identify and restore the cemeteries in the county to the best extent possible. In past years we had a budget of $10,000 a year. This year, because of the financial strains so many counties in Indiana are suffering and the economic decline of the County Seat (Anderson) over the last couple decades since GM has pulled out the many plants it has here, our budget was cut in half. Now, for those that already did not know it, you have some back ground. I want to provide some insight into our commissions thinking and experience (which BTW has a history of restoring cemeteries in Madison county over twice as long as the INPCRP has existed). These are not excuses but explanations as to why we restore and remount cemetery head stones the way we do. I do not feel we need to appologize for anything and have been disturbed that some posters on this list think they have "just desserts" to dish out to us. 1. Concrete: We set the tablet style headstone markers in concrete because we have no control over who is mowing and how the cemeteries are mowed. Every year we get calls from the public from various townships expressing concern about the maintenance of this cemetery or that one. After the MCCC identifies and restores a cemetery the actual maintenance of the cemetery is passed to the county trustee.The trustees are elected and change frequently in the 14 townships of Madison County. Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously, others do not and the only pressure that can be brought on those that do not is purely grass roots political pressure from the citizens of the township. Vandalism, trees, livestock, and MOWING are among the primary modes by which old headstones in our county cemeteries get damaged. Most of the pioneer cemeteries in the county don't get mowed but once a month if that often and thus the vegetation gets pretty high. No matter how much one tries, no matter how careful one is, accidents are going to happen on occasion and we have no guarantee that those mowing the cemeteries in the fourteen townships in the county will always be as careful as we would like. . What other pieces of machinery other than mowing equipment are operated near the markers in our inactive cemeteries on a regular basis? So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing and. I have seen plenty of these old headstones scared by just the repetitive use of a weed wacker and others more severely damaged at ground level by what obviously was the passage of a mower deck. Thus the decision to use concrete with a curb is a trade off of trying to protect the headstones we reset. I have seen comments about salts attacking the stone in the headstones. I have seen no such problem here in any of the cemeteries I have visited and inspected which is the vast majority of those listed on our website). What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks. We apply RTV silicone or epoxy at the stone-concrete interface in order to seal it. The concrete under grade is installed to be about 30" deep with the lower half configured in a shape like and inverted pyramid to forestall up-lifting from frost. We simply do not have the money to pay for the extra labor and material to go deep enough to get below the frostline. Further, as anyone who has actually dug in these old cemeteries knows, there is a fair chance of hitting an actual grave as you approach 4' of depth. It simply is not possible to establish the exact location of the rows of head stones in some cases. 2. Epoxy: My company sells Polygem Inc. epoxies for industrial uses through out the US and Canada and the manufacturer of that brand I sell produces many varieties and is one of the nations leading experts on polymer rocks, plants, etc, as used in museum displays. His company also has a whole "Mine Products" line for epoxies and polymers used to secure anchors which keep the roofs of underground mines from collapsing and a "Construction Products" division which among many other products, has one that is specified by the Illinois Hwy. department for anchoring rebar and steel pins in repairs on that states concrete roads. I suspect that Kurt Moranuse, President and Manager of Polygem, Inc. in west Chicago, who is a chemical engineer who formulates and manufactures epoxies, and who is the one who recommended the epoxy we use on our markers has forgotten more about their proper use in about any application than anyone posting on the INPCRP board. And I suspect that I have applied a greater quantity of various types of epoxies in various industrial applications than anyone posting messages at the INPCRP. 3. Framing: At one time steel was used to splint fragmented headstones in this county. Shortly after I joined the commission I looked into finding a way to improve on that method because the steel rusts and stains the headstones. Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar. I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us. We spray the portion of the frame that will be mounted in the concrete with zinc chromate primer to ward off electrolysis and this is in fact a common method used by design engineers in buildings, water treatment plants, etc where aluminum-concrete interface is required. Anodized aluminum is just too expensive. PVC not strong enough. 4. General We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back. I wonder how many of you numerous critics here have used their own personal assets to help build a bridge for heavy equipment just to gain access to a cemetery that needs restored? How many here have driven and walked to and into EVERY single known pioneer cemetery in your county at your own expense in order to get GPS coordinates for those cemeteries? How many here have used their own time to lay out a grid system on paper then on the ground to plot the locations of over 50 head stones. Then carefully removed those headstones using their own equipment so a cemetery, having been overrun by livestock for years, can be graded and landscaped before the headstones are replaced and remounted? How many here have researched and searched for years to try and locate the grave of every Revolutionary war veteran in their county. How many here spent the time and effort to put together and maintain a web-site of the quality of the MCCC site? How many here have spent hours probing inch by inch for headstones. How many here have spent the hours and hours and hours of research required to try and locate the graves to best extent possible. Members of the MCCC have done these things and many more and meet the last Wednesday of 11 months of the year to coordiante our ongoing efforts. We are proud of those efforts and our results and that includes our results at the Chapman Cottrell cemetery which have come under such heavy criticism in this forum. Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County. I am not, however open to statements or implications of that we "are not dedicated", or deserve some "just desserts", etc because, quite frankly, to my knowledge, I nor the MCCC answers to the IMPCRP or any of it's members. I am here for constructive suggestions, if you have none, then I will drop off this list. Have at it. Rob Hains Member, Madison County Cemetery Commission.

L.A. and the list: I'm still on the list. Technically, I own rights to the logo and graphics and some of the information used on the web site. However, a good portion of the information belongs to individual authors or to the INPCRP as a whole. I wish I could maintain the INPCRP web site but it just isn't going to happen. I am already webmaster for a couple dozen web sites and with a large family, there just isn't any time remaining to devote to another site. If someone would like to assume the role of INPCRP webmaster, I'm sure we could find the information and get the site back in service. -Scott Satterthwaite L. A. Clugh wrote: >Cindy and list. >This is something I have inquired about. It's not moving ahead as fast as I would like it to. >The WebPages were sponsored by Rootsweb and Brad did move them to his own site. >I will let you know as soon as I get somewhere with all this. > >L.A > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "crfordy" <crfordy@comcast.net> >To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, September 02, 2005 1:45 AM >Subject: [INPCRP] Re: INPCRP-D Digest V05 #234 > > > > >>Can anyone tell me if there is currently a list owner or if there is an >>administrator? >> >>I checked for activity at inpcrp.org and it was last updated on August 25th >>2005 >>and the staus is pending Delete-Restorable. Did Brad buy this site @$50 per >>year? It must be paid up until July 19, 2006, cause thats when the registry >>expires. I thought this was supposed to be hosted without cost by rootsweb. >>Does anyone know how it came to be moved to somewhere that it could not be >>reached. I am really curious about this whole thing. I dont remember a >>consensus of the group to move it to another site or does it really belong >>to the group? Did it ever? Who holds the copyright to: © 2004- Indiana >>Pioneer Cemeteries Restoration Project >>Is Scott Satterthwaite still on the list? This was all originally something >>he started on his own. Maybe there are some answers out there. >>Don Huffman >>crfordy@comcast.net >>

Hi Amy, I don't see the responses you refer to as cold and hurtful. I see them as dismayed and wanting positive change. People who restore stones either professionally or as a volunteer commitment have a right to be hurting themselves when they hear about good intentions gone wrong. I suspect they fear that, for every cemetery they do right, some one does one wrong. I would be very frustrated, too. I guess I also disagree about cost. Redenbaugh was not unreasonably expensive when you consider the extensive breakage, and there were family contributions to help with the cost. I do more fundraising and building a support base for "my" cemeteries than I do physical labor, so I know hundreds and even thousands can be raised. I also know from personal experience that grant writing can be successful. I read the letter from the Greene Twp trustee, and I'm sorry he feels as he does. The Madison Co Cemetery Commission MUST educate themselves in best practice techniques. Madison County residents wouldn't be happy with a Transportation Department that used the fastest but outdated methods of fixing roads. Think of the public outcry for doing it right! Isn't it the same principle? Best practice techniques don't belong to just a few people but have been established by many practitioners and developed through many years of experience. Those responsible in Madison County should accept their just desserts, get over it, and get on with doing it right. If they don't have that kind of commitment, they should get out of it. Sharon Mills At 09:23 PM 9/2/2005, you wrote: >Hi Sharon, > >I respect what you are saying, and for me personally, no I would never use >concrete. I understand fully what everyone is saying and why we do not use >concrete to set stones.