Joan, This should help. I will add it to the main page soon. http://www.indianatownshipassoc.org/townships.html I have connected some of the pages already. Many more to go. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: <ejw13@ccrtc.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:58 AM Subject: [INPCRP] Hills Baptist Cemetery in Clinton County > Hi Group: > > Is there anyone on board from Clinton County? I would like to know who > the > Trustee is for this cemetery as we have been asked to repair some family > stones for a friend there. > > Thanks, > > Joan Wray > Tipton, County > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > >

Hi Group: Is there anyone on board from Clinton County? I would like to know who the Trustee is for this cemetery as we have been asked to repair some family stones for a friend there. Thanks, Joan Wray Tipton, County

When my grandmother died, we found the original deed to Bethlehem Church on SR58 east of Carlisle. It was for a church, not to include a cemetery. My grandmother's grandparents donated land for the cemetery. They lived just south of the church. The church building had been sold to an independent congregation. A couple of years later, I asked about that deed and a plat map of the east side of Carlisle. Nobody knows where they are. They were being passed around through the family. How my grandmother ended up with the original deed is a mystery to us. Sharon Howell

Thank you Joyce, She has tried the one in Penn. already. I will add the other two to her list. We have also found another older church down the road. Maybe the records and membership were moved there. I think there are 3 districts in Indiana too. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joyce Haibe" <geogdept@iupui.edu> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2005 11:13 AM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > Since it was a Presbyterian Church you might also contact the Presbytery > or the > national office in Louisville, Ky. I don't know if they keep those kind of > records and this was long before the Presbyterian Churches united but they > may > have some suggestions or they may also know who the pastors were at the > time > the church was closed. It's a real long shot but who knows, sometimes > those are > the ones that work out. http://www.pcusa.org/ or the synod which I think > is the > Ohio Valley Synod. > > Joyce Haibe > > > Quoting uebush@sbcglobal.net: > > > The county recorder's office should have the grantor/grantee deed books, > > if > > they have not been lost or destroyed by fire. > > Looking in the index under "T" for trustee deeds for the section of the > > township you need. Henry county used 16-10-11 (example) > > for Section #(16)-township(10) and range(11) and look for church > > trustees > > listed in the abstract. I found all of these under "Trustee." > > http://hcgs.net/church.html > > > > UEB > > Henry Co., IN > > INPCRP > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Rich Green" <rgreen@insightbb.com> > > To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > > > > > > Howdy LA, > > > > > > Have you thought about trying to establish who the pastor and or other > > > church officials were for the time period in question? > > > > > > If the names are known you may be able to locate ancestors. Maybe > > > there > > > are church records to be found within their personal papers (assuming > > > that > > > > > there are any to be found). It's a long shot I know. > > > > > > If the cemetery is located in a well established community, there may > > > be > > > health department records, but I suppose these would probably be found > > > within one of your sources already listed. > > > > > > Good luck, > > > > > > Rich Green > > > Historic Archaeological Research > > > 4338 Hadley Court > > > West Lafayette, IN 47906 > > > Office: (765) 464-8735 > > > Mobile: (765) 427-4082 > > > www.har-indy.com > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: L.A. CLUGH > > > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > > > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM > > > Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > > > > > > > > List, > > > I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church > > > cemetery > > > > > in > > > Indiana. > > > She has been through all the normal people and place in the County > > > and > > > the > > > State > > > Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she > > > has > > > also > > > checked > > > with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this > > > so > > > far. > > > The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. > > > It > > > must > > > have closed > > > before the 1880's. > > > > > > So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to > > > look > > > for > > > information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? > > > I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for > > > future > > > researchers. > > > > > > Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the > > > strangest > > > places. > > > > > > L.A. > > > > > > Other than: > > > County Historical Society > > > County Library > > > County Courthouse > > > County Historians > > > State Library > > > Fort Wayne Library > > > LDS microfilms > > > Church Archives > > > > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > > > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > > > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > > > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > > > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > > > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > > > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > > > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > > > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > > > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > > > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > > > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > > > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > > > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, > > > IA > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you > > have." > > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > > > > > > > -- > Joyce Haibe > Geography Department > IUPUI > Indianapolis, IN 46202 > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you > have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > >

Since it was a Presbyterian Church you might also contact the Presbytery or the national office in Louisville, Ky. I don't know if they keep those kind of records and this was long before the Presbyterian Churches united but they may have some suggestions or they may also know who the pastors were at the time the church was closed. It's a real long shot but who knows, sometimes those are the ones that work out. http://www.pcusa.org/ or the synod which I think is the Ohio Valley Synod. Joyce Haibe Quoting uebush@sbcglobal.net: > The county recorder's office should have the grantor/grantee deed books, if > they have not been lost or destroyed by fire. > Looking in the index under "T" for trustee deeds for the section of the > township you need. Henry county used 16-10-11 (example) > for Section #(16)-township(10) and range(11) and look for church trustees > listed in the abstract. I found all of these under "Trustee." > http://hcgs.net/church.html > > UEB > Henry Co., IN > INPCRP > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Green" <rgreen@insightbb.com> > To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:08 PM > Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > > > Howdy LA, > > > > Have you thought about trying to establish who the pastor and or other > > church officials were for the time period in question? > > > > If the names are known you may be able to locate ancestors. Maybe there > > are church records to be found within their personal papers (assuming that > > > there are any to be found). It's a long shot I know. > > > > If the cemetery is located in a well established community, there may be > > health department records, but I suppose these would probably be found > > within one of your sources already listed. > > > > Good luck, > > > > Rich Green > > Historic Archaeological Research > > 4338 Hadley Court > > West Lafayette, IN 47906 > > Office: (765) 464-8735 > > Mobile: (765) 427-4082 > > www.har-indy.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: L.A. CLUGH > > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM > > Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > > > > > List, > > I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery > > > in > > Indiana. > > She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and > > the > > State > > Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has > > also > > checked > > with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so > > far. > > The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It > > must > > have closed > > before the 1880's. > > > > So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to > > look > > for > > information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? > > I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future > > researchers. > > > > Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest > > places. > > > > L.A. > > > > Other than: > > County Historical Society > > County Library > > County Courthouse > > County Historians > > State Library > > Fort Wayne Library > > LDS microfilms > > Church Archives > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA > > > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > > -- Joyce Haibe Geography Department IUPUI Indianapolis, IN 46202

Dear Sharon, The Church is gone, not the cemetery. If someone is going to do research on a Church connected to a cemetery they will need to know more about the Church. I think Rich had the right idea. In order to find more about some people or places you have to find a collections of personal papers to dig into. Collections sometimes are at Church archives and sometimes in libraries. Could anyone like to share anything stories about personal papers? L.A. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Howell" <sshowell@indy.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > The Church is know as Mount Hope in Clinton County. Sorry about that. > > About 2 miles out of Rossville on CR 700 N. > > > > This is what I have for that name. > MOUNT HOPE S5 T22N > R1W > 40°23'13"N 86°33'08"W > > The cemetery is on the south side of CR700N, between CR250W and CR300W. > From US421/SR39, go east on CR700N for 1.8 mile. From SR75, go west on > CR700N for 1.5 mile. > > > > Another place to check would be topographic maps. Sometimes they show > cemeteries, even without names. They usually don't remove a cemetery even > though that cemetery was moved (usually for a lake) or had disappeared. > Beware of names, though. Sometimes the map has the wrong name, and often no > name at all. > > > > Sharon Howell > > >

> The Church is know as Mount Hope in Clinton County. Sorry about that. > About 2 miles out of Rossville on CR 700 N. This is what I have for that name. MOUNT HOPE S5 T22N R1W 40°23'13"N 86°33'08"W The cemetery is on the south side of CR700N, between CR250W and CR300W. From US421/SR39, go east on CR700N for 1.8 mile. From SR75, go west on CR700N for 1.5 mile. Another place to check would be topographic maps. Sometimes they show cemeteries, even without names. They usually don't remove a cemetery even though that cemetery was moved (usually for a lake) or had disappeared. Beware of names, though. Sometimes the map has the wrong name, and often no name at all. Sharon Howell

Larry: I thought some of the others would have jumped in and answered your question. Since they didn't, I guess I'll tell you what I know is used. A mixture of 3 parts water and 1 part ammonia. Then a plastic bristled brush. No wire, etc... plastic only. Maybe others can expand on this a little, but I hope this helps. Kyle > Hi List: > > What are the methods y'all use for cleaning stones in order to read > inscriptions. What type of permissions does one have to get to clean ancestors > stones but stones which are located on plots that I do not have direct ownership > of. > > The cemetery I want to do this work on is in NW Illinois--the major > impediment is hard encrusted lichen and the stones are 1850-11890 era--the stones > themselves are in good shape. > > Larry Leahy > Muncie >

The county recorder's office should have the grantor/grantee deed books, if they have not been lost or destroyed by fire. Looking in the index under "T" for trustee deeds for the section of the township you need. Henry county used 16-10-11 (example) for Section #(16)-township(10) and range(11) and look for church trustees listed in the abstract. I found all of these under "Trustee." http://hcgs.net/church.html UEB Henry Co., IN INPCRP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Green" <rgreen@insightbb.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > Howdy LA, > > Have you thought about trying to establish who the pastor and or other > church officials were for the time period in question? > > If the names are known you may be able to locate ancestors. Maybe there > are church records to be found within their personal papers (assuming that > there are any to be found). It's a long shot I know. > > If the cemetery is located in a well established community, there may be > health department records, but I suppose these would probably be found > within one of your sources already listed. > > Good luck, > > Rich Green > Historic Archaeological Research > 4338 Hadley Court > West Lafayette, IN 47906 > Office: (765) 464-8735 > Mobile: (765) 427-4082 > www.har-indy.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: L.A. CLUGH > To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM > Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > > > List, > I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery > in > Indiana. > She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and > the > State > Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has > also > checked > with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so > far. > The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It > must > have closed > before the 1880's. > > So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to > look > for > information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? > I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future > researchers. > > Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest > places. > > L.A. > > Other than: > County Historical Society > County Library > County Courthouse > County Historians > State Library > Fort Wayne Library > LDS microfilms > Church Archives > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- > "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families > are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is > undisguised. This is a cemetery. > "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, > historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. > "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved > in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - > not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family > memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. > "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of > yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery > exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." > --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA > >

The Church is know as Mount Hope in Clinton County. Sorry about that. About 2 miles out of Rossville on CR 700 N. All very good ideas Kyle. I will add these to the list and Ask her again. I know she made the rounds through all the offices earlier this year. Jeez our Recorder doesn't have all that good stuff. They do have some plats. And a few cemetery books with recorded deeds for a couple of big cemeteries in town. She also has the burial list in Excel, which I use too, this way it can be sorted for the library trips to that microfilm for obituaries. I also forgot to mention she started with the Trustee. And has been talking to the Genealogy society as well. Health Department Records didn't start in Indiana until 1882 and some counties didn't get started until much later. And Angela, just read your message. Yes I forgot to mention she has dissected the county history books too. It mentions the Church but that is it. All good things for that list. Thanks everyone. Good night all! LAC ----- Original Message ----- From: <KidClerk@aol.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > L.A. > > The sources you cited are quite general, so I'm not sure where in the > 'courthouse' you are referring to. But for the sake of it anyway, there are two > possible types of records in the county recorder's office. The first is the deed > records, where cemetery plots could be recorded. The other is a cemetery > book, where the same type of record could be found. Also, in some cemetery > records in the recorder's office are found the organizational documents of when the > cemetery was organized, if it was governed by a board. Some of our original > cemetery plat maps are also recorded in this office... > > The only other source I would know of having used them myself are > obituaries/death notices in local newspapers. > > It sounds as if all most, if not all, bases have been covered. Your only > hope would be that the records are in private hands and that they may surface > some day... > > Kyle > > > List, > > I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery > > in Indiana. > > She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the > > State Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has > > also checked with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about > > this so far. The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It > > must have closed before the 1880's. > > > > So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look > > for information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? > > I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future > > researchers. > > > > Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest > > places. > > > > L.A. > > > > Other than: > > County Historical Society > > County Library > > County Courthouse > > County Historians > > State Library > > Fort Wayne Library > > LDS microfilms > > Church Archives > > > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. > >

Oh good points. I know there are no maps for my county. I had forgotten that one. I will add these to the list. And the have her check the Veterans office and Legions too. Good leads. LA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alloway" <ralloway@earthlink.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 7:04 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records > I found the original plat map of our cemetery, on linen cloth, which was > said to be destroyed, in the township trustees office, which had taken it > over when the cemetery was abandon. > > Also, at the state archives, on 30th Street, they have many W.P.A maps of > Veterans and where they were buried, which gives clues to the layout of most > farm and church cemeteries and the grid location. ..cousin Bob > > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > "Show me your cemeteries, and I will tell you what kind of people you have." > Benjamin Franklin (1706 - 1790) > >

Hello, I will expand on Rich's suggestion. Has she checked for a book written about the county's history? The author usually wrote about all the churches in the county, the churches' history, pastors, etc... Maybe she could find something useful in there? Angela Tielking -----Original Message----- From: Rich Green [mailto:rgreen@insightbb.com] Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 5:08 PM To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records Howdy LA, Have you thought about trying to establish who the pastor and or other church officials were for the time period in question? If the names are known you may be able to locate ancestors. Maybe there are church records to be found within their personal papers (assuming that there are any to be found). It's a long shot I know. If the cemetery is located in a well established community, there may be health department records, but I suppose these would probably be found within one of your sources already listed. Good luck, Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Mobile: (765) 427-4082 www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: L.A. CLUGH To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records List, I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery in Indiana. She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the State Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has also checked with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so far. The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It must have closed before the 1880's. So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look for information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future researchers. Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest places. L.A. Other than: County Historical Society County Library County Courthouse County Historians State Library Fort Wayne Library LDS microfilms Church Archives ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know. ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== THIS IS A CEMETERY ----- "Lives are commemorated - deaths are recorded - families are reunited - memories are made tangible - and love is undisguised. This is a cemetery. "Communities accord respect, families bestow reverence, historians seek information and our heritage is thereby enriched. "Testimonies of devotion, pride and remembrance are carved in stone to pay warm tribute to accomplishments and to the life - not the death - of a loved one. The cemetery is homeland for family memorials that are a sustaining source of comfort to the living. "A cemetery is a history of people - a perpetual record of yesterday and sanctuary of peace and quiet today. A cemetery exists because every life is worth loving and remembering - always." --Author unknown -- Seen at a monument dealer in West Union, IA

LA: I MUST HAVE MISSED SOMETHING EARLIER....DO YOU KNOW WHAT COUNTY SHE IS LOOKING FOR? IF MOST ARE LIKE WE ARE, WE HAVE VISITED ALL OUR CEMETERIES AND HAVE SOME KNOWLEDGE OF THE HISTORY OF THEM. THANKS, JOAN WRAY TIPTON COUNTY ----- Original Message ----- From: "L.A. CLUGH" <Clugh_la@msn.com> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records List, I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery in Indiana. She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the State Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has also checked with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so far. The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It must have closed before the 1880's. So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look for information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future researchers. Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest places. L.A. Other than: County Historical Society County Library County Courthouse County Historians State Library Fort Wayne Library LDS microfilms Church Archives ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

I found the original plat map of our cemetery, on linen cloth, which was said to be destroyed, in the township trustees office, which had taken it over when the cemetery was abandon. Also, at the state archives, on 30th Street, they have many W.P.A maps of Veterans and where they were buried, which gives clues to the layout of most farm and church cemeteries and the grid location. ..cousin Bob

L.A. The sources you cited are quite general, so I'm not sure where in the 'courthouse' you are referring to. But for the sake of it anyway, there are two possible types of records in the county recorder's office. The first is the deed records, where cemetery plots could be recorded. The other is a cemetery book, where the same type of record could be found. Also, in some cemetery records in the recorder's office are found the organizational documents of when the cemetery was organized, if it was governed by a board. Some of our original cemetery plat maps are also recorded in this office... The only other source I would know of having used them myself are obituaries/death notices in local newspapers. It sounds as if all most, if not all, bases have been covered. Your only hope would be that the records are in private hands and that they may surface some day... Kyle > List, > I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery > in > Indiana. > She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the > State > Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has > also > checked > with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so > far. > The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It > must > have closed > before the 1880's. > > So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look > for > information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? > I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future > researchers. > > Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest > places. > > L.A. > > Other than: > County Historical Society > County Library > County Courthouse > County Historians > State Library > Fort Wayne Library > LDS microfilms > Church Archives >

Bravo Melody and Bravo Madison County Cemetery Commission! I have ancestors buried in several pioneer graveyards (Mendon, Busby, Perkinsville to name a few)in the county in several townships (Fall Creek, Green, Jackson) and have appreciated the work you folks have done. Keep up the good work, just realize that these folks have a fundamentalist zeal with respect to restoration techniques and you have to love them for carrying the torch and at the same time feel good about your own efforts in fighting the good fight. Now, can we move on???... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Hull" <thull@iquest.net> To: <INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] summary > Well, Kyle, I started this mess by naively thinking that members of a > pioneer cemetery restoration list would enjoying seeing that we'd saved > the Cottrell from extinction. > Since we'd been asked to move to a different topic, I wanted to finish > what I started. I thought I'd bring the subject "full circle" as we say > in the literary world. Your negative, critical comments as to the > timeliness of the closure gives me the opportunity to add that the > Cottrell Cemetery is preserved and those stones in cement will be standing > for a good long time just like their predecessors in other Madison County > cemeteries. That is what cemetery restoration is about and that is the > bottom line, so to speak. > Melody > > At 10:39 AM 9/9/2005, you wrote: > >>Melody: >> >>The whole point to all of this discussion has been regarding your methods, >>not your intentions. I congratulate you on all of your hard work and >>dedication...it's just that many on here believe there to be more >>effective and proper >>ways that would look even better than what you can accomplish. I would >>guess >>that many of those you cite who are pleased with your work base that on >>the >>condition before your work and after. That's not to say they understand >>what you >>are doing or how you are doing it...and quite possibly don't care as long >>as >>you are doing something. But if the facts were known to all of them, and >>they >>saw what other options were available and what other end results could be >>had, then maybe they would agree that there are better ways. It is >>unfortunate >>that from everything I have read from the Madison Co posts on this list >>that >>these same people may never be exposed to these techniques unless they >>travel >>outside of your county to compare the other options that have been >>proposed. >>And while I will agree your Green Twp. trustee has expressed his >>appreciation, >>he is also on record as saying that you may not be doing the work exactly >>correct. The fact that he is OK with that is as troubling to me as the >>work being >>done. Again, I think this topic is at an impasse with regards to Madison >>County, so the best we can hope for is to have others that read these >>posts do >>their diligent research before undertaking any work. >> >>Kyle D. Conrad >> >> >>==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >>To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of >>"UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com >> or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) > > > ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== > Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of > England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: > "Show me the manner in which a nation or community > cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical > exactness the tender mercies of its people, their > respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty > to high ideals." > >

Wow, I had hoped that by clearly explaining the positions of both sides this argument would subside and we could get on to more constructive comments and an exchange of ideas? The poster below; however, seems bent on continuing along the original lines. I will try to explain again. The act of restoration by definition is to "bring back to an original state". This is what folks here are obviously dedicated to accomplishing. While this certainly isn't feasible in all cases, it is nevertheless one of the goals of this group. You continue to refer to your work as restoration. The original state of the monuments you are altering surely did not include PVC, stainless steel, aluminum or concrete? What you are really accomplishing then is a repair. This fundamental difference of restoration vs. repair should adequately explain the problem that the people on this list have with the methods of repair you have described. From the standpoint of established INPCRP restoration practices, your repairs will very probably have consequences that are irreversible and restoration may therefore never be possible. In short, I think it should be obvious that you shouldn't expect accolades for a work product that is contrary to one of the basic premises on which a group was founded. Rather than listening to voices of reason, you prefer to assume a defensive posture and continue to promote a somewhat awkward position. I would respectfully suggest to you again, that it would be more appropriate to think along more positive lines and to start or participate in discussions that at least have a chance of resulting in a better understanding of cemetery monument restoration. Regards, Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Mobile: (765) 427-4082 www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Tom Hull To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [INPCRP] summary Well, Kyle, I started this mess by naively thinking that members of a pioneer cemetery restoration list would enjoying seeing that we'd saved the Cottrell from extinction. Since we'd been asked to move to a different topic, I wanted to finish what I started. I thought I'd bring the subject "full circle" as we say in the literary world. Your negative, critical comments as to the timeliness of the closure gives me the opportunity to add that the Cottrell Cemetery is preserved and those stones in cement will be standing for a good long time just like their predecessors in other Madison County cemeteries. That is what cemetery restoration is about and that is the bottom line, so to speak. Melody At 10:39 AM 9/9/2005, you wrote: >Melody: > >The whole point to all of this discussion has been regarding your methods, >not your intentions. I congratulate you on all of your hard work and >dedication...it's just that many on here believe there to be more >effective and proper >ways that would look even better than what you can accomplish. I would guess >that many of those you cite who are pleased with your work base that on the >condition before your work and after. That's not to say they understand >what you >are doing or how you are doing it...and quite possibly don't care as long as >you are doing something. But if the facts were known to all of them, and >they >saw what other options were available and what other end results could be >had, then maybe they would agree that there are better ways. It is >unfortunate >that from everything I have read from the Madison Co posts on this list that >these same people may never be exposed to these techniques unless they travel >outside of your county to compare the other options that have been proposed. >And while I will agree your Green Twp. trustee has expressed his >appreciation, >he is also on record as saying that you may not be doing the work exactly >correct. The fact that he is OK with that is as troubling to me as the >work being >done. Again, I think this topic is at an impasse with regards to Madison >County, so the best we can hope for is to have others that read these >posts do >their diligent research before undertaking any work. > >Kyle D. Conrad > > >==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== >To UNSUBSCRIBE, send message consisting only of >"UNSUBSCRIBE" to INPCRP-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com > or to INPCRP-D-REQUEST@rootsweb.com (for DIGEST version) ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Quote from William Gladstone (1809-1897), three-time Prime Minister of England and Victorian contemporary of Benjamin Disraeli: "Show me the manner in which a nation or community cares for its dead and I will measure with mathematical exactness the tender mercies of its people, their respect for the laws of the land, and their loyalty to high ideals."

In a message dated 9/9/2005 8:23:37 A.M. US Eastern Standard Time, goaliema4ever@yahoo.com writes: Mr. Hains, You wrote: You don't have to worry about private contractors working for the local government, being paid by the job, and driving Zero-turn radius Xmart, or Skagg mowers that cut grass at 10 mph, and have a mower deck made from 1/4" thick steel, running into any, let alone some number of headstones and damaging them. As an individual and a business owner who hires private contractors for different purposes, I'm wondering why you as the "person in charge" (so to speak) don't require the contractors you hire to do a job properly? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- Please read my very first post on this forum (posted (9/6) earlier this week where I explained the situation: I have copied and pasted it below here with highlighting of the section that answers your question: As member of the Madison county cemetery commission I was heavily involved in the restoration of the Chapman- Cottrell cemetery. I just got on the mailing list in response to e-mails forwarded to me from it by others. The MCCC is a volunteer commission. We work under the authority of, and are funded by the County Commissioners office. I have been on the commission for about 7 years. We try to stay out of politics as much as absolutely possible because our mission is to identify and restore the cemeteries in the county to the best extent possible. In past years we had a budget of $10,000 a year. This year, because of the financial strains so many counties in Indiana are suffering and the economic decline of the County Seat (Anderson) over the last couple decades since GM has pulled out the many plants it has here, our budget was cut in half. Now, for those that already did not know it, you have some back ground. I want to provide some insight into our commissions thinking and experience (which BTW has a history of restoring cemeteries in Madison county over twice as long as the INPCRP has existed). These are not excuses but explanations as to why we restore and remount cemetery head stones the way we do. I do not feel we need to apologize for anything and have been disturbed that some posters on this list think they have "just desserts" to dish out to us. 1. Concrete: We set the tablet style headstone markers in concrete because we have no control over who is mowing and how the cemeteries are mowed. Every year we get calls from the public from various townships expressing concern about the maintenance of this cemetery or that one. After the MCCC identifies and restores a cemetery the actual maintenance of the cemetery is passed to the county trustee.The trustees are elected and change frequently in the 14 townships of Madison County. Some trustees take their charge of maintaining the cemeteries in the township seriously, others do not and the only pressure that can be brought on those that do not is purely grass roots political pressure from the citizens of the township. Vandalism, trees, livestock, and MOWING are among the primary modes by which old headstones in our county cemeteries get damaged. Most of the pioneer cemeteries in the county don't get mowed but once a month if that often and thus the vegetation gets pretty high. No matter how much one tries, no matter how careful one is, accidents are going to happen on occasion and we have no guarantee that those mowing the cemeteries in the fourteen townships in the county will always be as careful as we would like. . What other pieces of machinery other than mowing equipment are operated near the markers in our inactive cemeteries on a regular basis? So the use of a concrete foundation with a curb above grade makes it highly unlikely that the old headstones, made from softer more fragile stone will be damaged by mowing and. I have seen plenty of these old headstones scared by just the repetitive use of a weed wacker and others more severely damaged at ground level by what obviously was the passage of a mower deck. Thus the decision to use concrete with a curb is a trade off of trying to protect the headstones we reset. I have seen comments about salts attacking the stone in the headstones. I have seen no such problem here in any of the cemeteries I have visited and inspected which is the vast majority of those listed on our website). What I have seen are a few instances of old headstones snapping off an inch or two above concrete but in every case the headstone was mounted in concrete flush with the grade where it is susceptible to damage to mower decks. We apply RTV silicone or epoxy at the stone-concrete interface in order to seal it. The concrete under grade is installed to be about 30" deep with the lower half configured in a shape like and inverted pyramid to forestall up-lifting from frost. We simply do not have the money to pay for the extra labor and material to go deep enough to get below the frostline. Further, as anyone who has actually dug in these old cemeteries knows, there is a fair chance of hitting an actual grave as you approach 4' of depth. It simply is not possible to establish the exact location of the rows of head stones in some cases. 2. Epoxy: My company sells Polygem Inc. epoxies for industrial uses through out the US and Canada and the manufacturer of that brand I sell produces many varieties and is one of the nations leading experts on polymer rocks, plants, etc, as used in museum displays. His company also has a whole "Mine Products" line for epoxies and polymers used to secure anchors which keep the roofs of underground mines from collapsing and a "Construction Products" division which among many other products, has one that is specified by the Illinois Hwy. department for anchoring rebar and steel pins in repairs on that states concrete roads. I suspect that Kurt Moranuse, President and Manager of Polygem, Inc. in west Chicago, who is a chemical engineer who formulates and manufactures epoxies, and who is the one who recommended the epoxy we use on our markers has forgotten more about their proper use in about any application than anyone posting on the INPCRP board. And I suspect that I have applied a greater quantity of various types of epoxies in various industrial applications than anyone posting messages at the INPCRP. 3. Framing: At one time steel was used to splint fragmented headstones in this county. Shortly after I joined the commission I looked into finding a way to improve on that method because the steel rusts and stains the headstones. Drilling and doweling headstones is expensive, requires a higher skill level than framing, and we have had to work with various contractors to maximize the work we get done for our limited dollar. I looked into using everything from PVC to stainless steel for the frames and in fact we did use some SS on one cemetery. But aluminum has turned out to be the best answer for us. We spray the portion of the frame that will be mounted in the concrete with zinc chromate primer to ward off electrolysis and this is in fact a common method used by design engineers in buildings, water treatment plants, etc where aluminum-concrete interface is required. Anodized aluminum is just too expensive. PVC not strong enough. 4. General We HAVE researched the techniques and not just on the web but in various books published on the subject. I and one other, at our own expense, attended a INPCRP sponsored restoration seminar up in Kokomo a few year back. I wonder how many of you numerous critics here have used their own personal assets to help build a bridge for heavy equipment just to gain access to a cemetery that needs restored? How many here have driven and walked to and into EVERY single known pioneer cemetery in your county at your own expense in order to get GPS coordinates for those cemeteries? How many here have used their own time to lay out a grid system on paper then on the ground to plot the locations of over 50 head stones. Then carefully removed those headstones using their own equipment so a cemetery, having been overrun by livestock for years, can be graded and landscaped before the headstones are replaced and remounted? How many here have researched and searched for years to try and locate the grave of every Revolutionary war veteran in their county. How many here spent the time and effort to put together and maintain a web-site of the quality of the MCCC site? How many here have spent hours probing inch by inch for headstones. How many here have spent the hours and hours and hours of research required to try and locate the graves to best extent possible. Members of the MCCC have done these things and many more and meet the last Wednesday of 11 months of the year to coordiante our ongoing efforts. We are proud of those efforts and our results and that includes our results at the Chapman Cottrell cemetery which have come under such heavy criticism in this forum. Now, I am open to constructive suggestions as how we can improve our restoration procedures within our financial and practical limitations here in Madison County. I am not, however open to statements or implications of that we "are not dedicated", or deserve some "just desserts", etc because, quite frankly, to my knowledge, I nor the MCCC answers to the IMPCRP or any of it's members. I am here for constructive suggestions, if you have none, then I will drop off this list. Have at it. Rob Hains Member, Madison County Cemetery Commission.

Howdy LA, Have you thought about trying to establish who the pastor and or other church officials were for the time period in question? If the names are known you may be able to locate ancestors. Maybe there are church records to be found within their personal papers (assuming that there are any to be found). It's a long shot I know. If the cemetery is located in a well established community, there may be health department records, but I suppose these would probably be found within one of your sources already listed. Good luck, Rich Green Historic Archaeological Research 4338 Hadley Court West Lafayette, IN 47906 Office: (765) 464-8735 Mobile: (765) 427-4082 www.har-indy.com ----- Original Message ----- From: L.A. CLUGH To: INPCRP-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 4:36 PM Subject: [INPCRP] Lost Church and Records List, I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery in Indiana. She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the State Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has also checked with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so far. The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It must have closed before the 1880's. So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look for information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future researchers. Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest places. L.A. Other than: County Historical Society County Library County Courthouse County Historians State Library Fort Wayne Library LDS microfilms Church Archives ==== INPCRP Mailing List ==== Blessed are the Elderly, for they remember what we will never know.

List, I have worked with a lady who is seeking information on a Church cemetery in Indiana. She has been through all the normal people and place in the County and the State Library and Fort Wayne too. This was a Presbyterian church and she has also checked with the National Church archives. No one knows anything about this so far. The building is long gone, the Church was listed in the 1878? Atlas. It must have closed before the 1880's. So my question to you all. If we were to create a list of places to look for information on who is buried in a cemetery, where would you look? I will be glad to collect all your wonderful ideas for a page for future researchers. Most of these are burials before 1880's. Records end up in the strangest places. L.A. Other than: County Historical Society County Library County Courthouse County Historians State Library Fort Wayne Library LDS microfilms Church Archives