Thanks Ken, the link didn't work so I Googled it and found the site. Most of the links seem to be broken on the site. Maybe they are working on it or something. I will try again later. Thanks again, it looks like a great site. Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken Baker<mailto:Kenebaker@comcast.net> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:44 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Black Dutch Jean, log in to "Pitter's Cherokee Trails" - "http://rosecitynet/cherokee/blackdutch<http://rosecitynet/cherokee/blackdutch> My grandmother claimed she was "Black Dutch" - I haven't gotten into Her history yet. Ken baker, Santa Maria, CA -----Original Message----- From: indian-territory-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com> [mailto:indian-territory-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jean Cloke Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 11:33 AM To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Black Dutch Hi, I am new to the list. I find this discussion fascinating. I live in Oklahoma in the part that was Indian Territory and have been interested in the history of the Native American tribes that were moved to this area for a long time. I have done some research, but still don't feel I have even a rudimentary understanding. Some of you seem to have more knowledge about this. As mentioned, some families said they were Black Dutch in order to hide their Indian heritage. My family was one of them. My paternal grandmother told us we were Black Dutch. She even had a wooden shoe that someone had bought as a souvenir somewhere, so I was totally sure we had Dutch ancestors until the late 1980's. I had already started doing some research and couldn't find anything about what part of Holland the Black Dutch were from. I had the opportunity to met a Dutch missionary who visited our church and asked him. He had no idea what I was talking about and told me there was no such thing as Black Dutch. After more research I found out that it was a cover for being Indian. We had also been told we had some Indian, probably Cherokee. It seems that as it became less taboo to be Indian, the family finally began admitting it, but later generations knew so little that the tribal affiliation had been lost during the years they were trying to keep it a secret. So now I'm tr! ying to figure out what tribe or tribes and have had no luck on the rolls. This discussion on where tribes were during what period is helpful. My ancestors that supposedly married into Indian tribes were from Germany originally. The Dibler's came through Pennsylvania (1700's- Abt. 1855), Ohio (Abt. 1859-1866), Indiana (1867-1870's), Arkansas (1880-1896/7), and Oklahoma/Indian Territory (1897/8-present). My other branch, the Sigman's immigrated from Germany in 1738 to Pennsylvania, by the early 1790's they were in Lincoln Co., NC. They moved around some in NC, then to Rockcastle Co., KY (1840's-50's), Linn Co., KS (1850's-1870), Benton Co., AR (1870's-present) where Rhoda Ann Sigman married William Geo. Dibler in 1884. They came to Oklahoma in about 1902. Some of the Dibler's were already here at that time. Anyone have any ideas about what tribes they might be based on the area's where they lived? Pictures & history of both branches from my grandmother indicates the intermarriage was long before they got to Oklahoma/Indian Territory. I have considered Cherokee, Choctaw, and Seminole, but open to ideas. Have a good day, Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: HealTheCircle@aol.com<mailto:HealTheCircle@aol.com<mailto:HealTheCircle@aol.com<mailto:HealTheCircle@aol.com>> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.c<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.c> om> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Hello everyone What's rather interesting about the Cherokee, is that at one time, they WERE part of the Iroquois Confederacy (6 Eastern Tribes). I would guess...this was earlier than the 1770's. This was when the Chickamaugan Cherokee withdrew from the other Cherokee, because of their ceding of land to the whites. So...the ceding of land, and intermarriages had already begun by that time. Fron what I can tell, the early settlers, were folks who worked in fur trade...which brought them in very close contact with the natives in the area where the Cherokee lived. The first settlers lived with the native people, married into the tribe, and were considered part of the tribe. I would also read James Mooney's book...about the Cherokee previous to the intermarrying with the white culture. I think the name of the book is "History, Myths, and Secret Formulas of the Cherokee." One other point I'd like to make...which I am willing to hear other perceptions on...is that in the 1830's when the removal began (referred to as the Trail of Tears)....some native families who were involved in that (Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Seminole, and Creek), instructed their children to not admit native blood, to escape the removal. There is talk of admitting "black dutch", "black irish", or sometimes "italian" or "greek" instead of native. This is understandable if you view the horror, loss of life, etc., that this removal perpetrated. There are museums at the Western and Eastern Cherokee Nations that depict this removal. Also, previous to this in about 1817, there was a "Massacre of 100 Women and Children", of the Chickamaugan Cherokee, not far from Ross's Landing, in what is now Chattanooga, TN. on their way to safety. The instruction by their Chief was to save the rest of the children, by sending them off with others, non native, to be raised as other than native (my history....on my Mitchell family). My family found them at a campground in what is now the Chattanooga area, and took them West with them to Henryville, TN....as their children. There they intermarried with other families who also had native in their background. From there they traveled to AR. So....it is possible that people, with native blood, could have ended up, in areas that were not designated, as the areas in which those tribes lived (as a tribe). These brief descriptions of history (of which I am a novice) only were cited to show that there events previous to the birth times of her people, that could have brought a person who was not a "fullblood" into an area.....but the native blood would still have been present, even if there was intermarriage. jes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-re<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-re> quest@rootsweb.com<mailto:quest@rootsweb.com>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. 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