----- Original Message ----- From: J W Kite Jr<mailto:obengekite@juno.com> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting informationaboutpetitionsofenrollm... Lathel, I know all about the Federal workings. I worked at the Archives here -vcolunteered- talked to Offices in Washington and in Fort Worth,. I have visited seveal State Libraries. As a matter of fact I get calls from all over even though I've been retired for sometime so I don't need any advice from anyone but thanks for your point of view. We have tons of stuff here at OHS. Oleta Benge Kite On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:44:38 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com<mailto:Lathel_Duf@msn.com>> writes: > BIA and genealogical services > > The BIA is not a repository for historical records. Federal laws > require ALL federal agencies to prepare their records (documents, > etc.) so that when a case is closed, I.e. the documents are no > longer needed for current work, that the original records be > prepared for transfer to the National Archives and Record Services. > The time frame varies depending on the nature of the records but > definitely by the time the documents are 25 years old and the case > is closed, they become part of the legal possession of NARA. The > BIA does not have any claim to the records in spite of the fact that > agency may have created them. There is a transitional period for > more recent records that have been sent to NARA and while these more > recent records are housed by NARA use of the records requires > permission from the BIA. If a person is not a professional > researcher or has never worked with a Federal agency this transition > of documents from the creating agency to NARA is not generally > known. ! > NARA has to implement the privacy laws so more recent records with > personal information can not be distributed. > > There are other factors at work here. Office space as people know > is very expensive. To use such space for storage of "dead" records > places undue strain on an agency budgets. Agencies must rent space > in government buildings and trying to house the thousands of records > that have been created would wipe out the agencies budget. > Technically all the buildings are the responsibility of the > Government Services Administration who have the responsibility of > all Government properties. They have to maintain them, arrange > leases, etc. The costs of any move from one building to another > however is borne by the agency. This is very a person should rely > on NARA and not the BIA for any relevant documentation. > > Lathel Duffield > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan M<mailto:wb@wvi.com<mailto:wb@wvi.com>> > To: > indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootswe<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootswe> b.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:40 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting > informationaboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > maybe ask for donations from those who care? Also. > Dan M > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com>>> > To: > <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsw<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsw> eb.com>> > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting information > aboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps if the BIA is having fiscal problems they might consider > offering > > genealogical services - for a price. So many people seem > interested. > And so > > many families have the lore of Indian ancestry. > > > > W.L. Barker > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS> -request@rootsweb.com<mailto:-request@rootsweb.com>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS> -request@rootsweb.com<mailto:-request@rootsweb.com>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 9/3/06 12:06:00 PM, obengekite@juno.com writes: > I never heard ofthis > book you mention [The River Trail, the diary of Lt. Harris, ed. Jane Noble] > but will try to get it. > If I understood you correctly, you live in or near Tahlequah, Oleta, and there may be a copy of the book there. But when I read it several years ago, I had to get it on interlibrary loan and there were only seven copies anywhere in the U.S available to be loaned out. It may have been since reprinted, but that was the case four or five years ago. Leo

Oleta- I've talked to you for ten or more years. Are you SURE that you've never heard of Cherokees being in I.T. before the 1838/39 Trail of Tears? I'm sure that you have, but you have just forgotten it. When the Trail of Tears groups came through Arkansas, all of those who wanted to remain citizens of the Cherokee Nation and their government was already established in the Cherokee Nation of Indian Territory. This is verified by the 1825 Treaty concerning the removal of the Western Cherokees from the Arkansas lands into Indian Territory, the Claims filed and paid for their Arkansas improvements, "The Dwight Mission Journal- 1822/1865", and "Cherokee Emigration Rolls- 1817/1835", transcribed and published by Jack Baker in 1977. Everyone who came west before the Trail of Tears were classified as "Old Settlers"- no matter if they came in 1817 or in 1834. Many are shown on that Emigration book by Baker with the exact dates that they arrived (Lt Harris's group: arrived May 16, 1834"; "James Walkingstick- 2 males under 10, one male under 25, one female under 10, one female under 50, one child died 25 August"; "Jeremiah Horn- arrived May 16, 1834"). These names may be cross-referenced to the Old Settler Rolls! The Pin Indians did not come into the picture until the Civil War, Oleta. Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen Claremore J W Kite Jr wrote: >The Old Settlers are the people who were in Arkansas in 1817. As far as >Sequoyah=-he is my cousin and he made many trips back and forth. I know >there were people here. There were Cherokees called Pin and one morning >when my relative went out on the porch to wash his face they came riding >out and killed him. Only thing that saved his son was because he got >under his mother's skirt. I am a Cherokee-was reared as a Cherokee have >traveled , Lowrey family and my people are rather well known. If you read >Old Frontier you will find my relatives on almost every page. I also >volunteered At OHS "Indian" Archives for five years. When the Trail of >Tears came thru Arkansas the Cherokees there could rejoin the Tribe and >come on into Indian Territory if they chose. Thereafter, anyone had to >get a Permit to come into Indian Territory. Furthermore, anyone leaving >theTribe were no longer considered to be aCherokee. I never heard ofthis >book you mention but will try to get it. Oleta > >

BIA and genealogical services The BIA is not a repository for historical records. Federal laws require ALL federal agencies to prepare their records (documents, etc.) so that when a case is closed, I.e. the documents are no longer needed for current work, that the original records be prepared for transfer to the National Archives and Record Services. The time frame varies depending on the nature of the records but definitely by the time the documents are 25 years old and the case is closed, they become part of the legal possession of NARA. The BIA does not have any claim to the records in spite of the fact that agency may have created them. There is a transitional period for more recent records that have been sent to NARA and while these more recent records are housed by NARA use of the records requires permission from the BIA. If a person is not a professional researcher or has never worked with a Federal agency this transition of documents from the creating agency to NARA is not generally known. NARA has to implement the privacy laws so more recent records with personal information can not be distributed. There are other factors at work here. Office space as people know is very expensive. To use such space for storage of "dead" records places undue strain on an agency budgets. Agencies must rent space in government buildings and trying to house the thousands of records that have been created would wipe out the agencies budget. Technically all the buildings are the responsibility of the Government Services Administration who have the responsibility of all Government properties. They have to maintain them, arrange leases, etc. The costs of any move from one building to another however is borne by the agency. This is very a person should rely on NARA and not the BIA for any relevant documentation. Lathel Duffield ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan M<mailto:wb@wvi.com> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting informationaboutpetitionsof enrollm... maybe ask for donations from those who care? Also. Dan M ----- Original Message ----- From: <TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com>> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting information aboutpetitionsof enrollm... > Hi, > > Perhaps if the BIA is having fiscal problems they might consider offering > genealogical services - for a price. So many people seem interested. And so > many families have the lore of Indian ancestry. > > W.L. Barker > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Betty and Glee, I too am a descendant of Ludovic Grant. My line goes back from Flossie Gladys (Taylor) Kerns, Timothy William Taylor aka William L. Smith, then Eliza Fields, Richard Fields, Ezekiel Fields, Richard Fields, Susanna Emory, Mary Grant, and finally Ludovic Grant. At this time, I am searching for Timothy William Taylor's long lost wife, Maudie Mae (Blagg) Taylor (b:1880) (d: 1927). I have been told that she left Timothy and her children behind and ran off with another man also of Indian descent. I am seeking to find who she left with, where she is buried and who were her parents. Glee Krapf <gleek@ptd.net> wrote: Betty, I go back to Nancy Ward also and Ludovic Grant. Go through the Daughter of Nancy (Elizabeth) who married Joseph Martin and then her daughter (Nancy) married Michael Hildebrand. Guess that we are probably cousins of somekind. I am guessing that you go through Catherine. I have cousins that descend out of Catherine. Always fun to meet a distant cousin. Glee ----- Original Message ----- From: "orville LaRue" To: Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:50 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Where do you look? > Glee you are right if you will look on the old maps what was called > Arkansas > Territory then is a big part of Oklahoma now. I am from some of the old > settlers. The Starr's. I go back to Nancy Ward on one side and Sequoyah on > the other. I have found it is best to take everything with a grain of salt > and check to be sure it is right. > Betty > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glee Krapf" > To: > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 3:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Where do you look? > > >> There were many people already in Indian Territory before the TOT. They >> were >> well established and had a goverment already in place. My 2nd great grand >> brother and his wife are on the old Settler roll. His name was John Beck. >> He >> moved west in 1834 and he did not live in Arkansas he went straight to >> what >> is now OK. He and his family were with one of the first groups that moved >> west and there is a book out about the trip. Called The River Trail. They >> were NOT on the TOT because they were way before 1837-1838. His name is >> listed in the back of the book as being on that trip. They arrived in >> Indian >> Territory 14 May 1834 and they had their first child on the trail. The >> leader of the trip was named Lt. Harris. Most of the trip was by water. >> Sequoyah was also early in moving west and was also well established in >> IT >> before the TOT. >> Glee >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "J W Kite Jr" >> wrote >> I've never heard of any Cherokee coming into Indian >> Territory prior to TOT. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Lathel, I know all about the Federal workings. I worked at the Archives here -vcolunteered- talked to Offices in Washington and in Fort Worth,. I have visited seveal State Libraries. As a matter of fact I get calls from all over even though I've been retired for sometime so I don't need any advice from anyone but thanks for your point of view. We have tons of stuff here at OHS. Oleta Benge Kite On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:44:38 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com> writes: > BIA and genealogical services > > The BIA is not a repository for historical records. Federal laws > require ALL federal agencies to prepare their records (documents, > etc.) so that when a case is closed, I.e. the documents are no > longer needed for current work, that the original records be > prepared for transfer to the National Archives and Record Services. > The time frame varies depending on the nature of the records but > definitely by the time the documents are 25 years old and the case > is closed, they become part of the legal possession of NARA. The > BIA does not have any claim to the records in spite of the fact that > agency may have created them. There is a transitional period for > more recent records that have been sent to NARA and while these more > recent records are housed by NARA use of the records requires > permission from the BIA. If a person is not a professional > researcher or has never worked with a Federal agency this transition > of documents from the creating agency to NARA is not generally > known. ! > NARA has to implement the privacy laws so more recent records with > personal information can not be distributed. > > There are other factors at work here. Office space as people know > is very expensive. To use such space for storage of "dead" records > places undue strain on an agency budgets. Agencies must rent space > in government buildings and trying to house the thousands of records > that have been created would wipe out the agencies budget. > Technically all the buildings are the responsibility of the > Government Services Administration who have the responsibility of > all Government properties. They have to maintain them, arrange > leases, etc. The costs of any move from one building to another > however is borne by the agency. This is very a person should rely > on NARA and not the BIA for any relevant documentation. > > Lathel Duffield > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan M<mailto:wb@wvi.com> > To: > indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootswe b.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:40 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting > informationaboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > maybe ask for donations from those who care? Also. > Dan M > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com>> > To: > <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsw eb.com>> > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting information > aboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps if the BIA is having fiscal problems they might consider > offering > > genealogical services - for a price. So many people seem > interested. > And so > > many families have the lore of Indian ancestry. > > > > W.L. Barker > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS -request@rootsweb.com> > with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS -request@rootsweb.com> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 11:44:38 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com> writes: > BIA and genealogical services > > The BIA is not a repository for historical records. Federal laws > require ALL federal agencies to prepare their records (documents, > etc.) so that when a case is closed, I.e. the documents are no > longer needed for current work, that the original records be > prepared for transfer to the National Archives and Record Services. > The time frame varies depending on the nature of the records but > definitely by the time the documents are 25 years old and the case > is closed, they become part of the legal possession of NARA. The > BIA does not have any claim to the records in spite of the fact that > agency may have created them. There is a transitional period for > more recent records that have been sent to NARA and while these more > recent records are housed by NARA use of the records requires > permission from the BIA. If a person is not a professional > researcher or has never worked with a Federal agency this transition > of documents from the creating agency to NARA is not generally > known. ! > NARA has to implement the privacy laws so more recent records with > personal information can not be distributed. > > There are other factors at work here. Office space as people know > is very expensive. To use such space for storage of "dead" records > places undue strain on an agency budgets. Agencies must rent space > in government buildings and trying to house the thousands of records > that have been created would wipe out the agencies budget. > Technically all the buildings are the responsibility of the > Government Services Administration who have the responsibility of > all Government properties. They have to maintain them, arrange > leases, etc. The costs of any move from one building to another > however is borne by the agency. This is very a person should rely > on NARA and not the BIA for any relevant documentation. > > Lathel Duffield > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dan M<mailto:wb@wvi.com> > To: > indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootswe b.com> > > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 11:40 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting > informationaboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > maybe ask for donations from those who care? Also. > Dan M > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <TopBranchW@aol.com<mailto:TopBranchW@aol.com>> > To: > <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsw eb.com>> > Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Requesting information > aboutpetitionsof enrollm... > > > > Hi, > > > > Perhaps if the BIA is having fiscal problems they might consider > offering > > genealogical services - for a price. So many people seem > interested. > And so > > many families have the lore of Indian ancestry. > > > > W.L. Barker > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS -request@rootsweb.com> > with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS -request@rootsweb.com> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

The Old Settlers are the people who were in Arkansas in 1817. As far as Sequoyah=-he is my cousin and he made many trips back and forth. I know there were people here. There were Cherokees called Pin and one morning when my relative went out on the porch to wash his face they came riding out and killed him. Only thing that saved his son was because he got under his mother's skirt. I am a Cherokee-was reared as a Cherokee have traveled , Lowrey family and my people are rather well known. If you read Old Frontier you will find my relatives on almost every page. I also volunteered At OHS "Indian" Archives for five years. When the Trail of Tears came thru Arkansas the Cherokees there could rejoin the Tribe and come on into Indian Territory if they chose. Thereafter, anyone had to get a Permit to come into Indian Territory. Furthermore, anyone leaving theTribe were no longer considered to be aCherokee. I never heard ofthis book you mention but will try to get it. Oleta On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 18:16:26 -0400 "Glee Krapf" <gleek@ptd.net> writes: > There were many people already in Indian Territory before the TOT. > They were > well established and had a goverment already in place. My 2nd great > grand > brother and his wife are on the old Settler roll. His name was John > Beck. He > moved west in 1834 and he did not live in Arkansas he went straight > to what > is now OK. He and his family were with one of the first groups that > moved > west and there is a book out about the trip. Called The River Trail. > They > were NOT on the TOT because they were way before 1837-1838. His name > is > listed in the back of the book as being on that trip. They arrived > in Indian > Territory 14 May 1834 and they had their first child on the trail. > The > leader of the trip was named Lt. Harris. Most of the trip was by > water. > Sequoyah was also early in moving west and was also well established > in IT > before the TOT. > Glee > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J W Kite Jr" <obengekite@juno.com> > wrote > I've never heard of any Cherokee coming into Indian > Territory prior to TOT. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

Glee you are right if you will look on the old maps what was called Arkansas Territory then is a big part of Oklahoma now. I am from some of the old settlers. The Starr's. I go back to Nancy Ward on one side and Sequoyah on the other. I have found it is best to take everything with a grain of salt and check to be sure it is right. Betty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glee Krapf" <gleek@ptd.net> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Where do you look? > There were many people already in Indian Territory before the TOT. They > were > well established and had a goverment already in place. My 2nd great grand > brother and his wife are on the old Settler roll. His name was John Beck. > He > moved west in 1834 and he did not live in Arkansas he went straight to > what > is now OK. He and his family were with one of the first groups that moved > west and there is a book out about the trip. Called The River Trail. They > were NOT on the TOT because they were way before 1837-1838. His name is > listed in the back of the book as being on that trip. They arrived in > Indian > Territory 14 May 1834 and they had their first child on the trail. The > leader of the trip was named Lt. Harris. Most of the trip was by water. > Sequoyah was also early in moving west and was also well established in IT > before the TOT. > Glee > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J W Kite Jr" <obengekite@juno.com> > wrote > I've never heard of any Cherokee coming into Indian > Territory prior to TOT. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I just checked with BOOKFINDER for the book and found one (or two) used books for sale. It looks like there are two or one copies for sale. One at $198.40 and one at $198.50....both used....not new books. The River Trail A saga of the Cherokee Removal by: Jane Noble I bet it is a good read.... Pat Kennedy ----- Original Message ----- From: <Lldurham@aol.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] The River Trail - was Where do you look? > > In a message dated 9/3/06 12:06:00 PM, obengekite@juno.com writes: > > >> I never heard ofthis >> book you mention [The River Trail, the diary of Lt. Harris, ed. Jane >> Noble] >> but will try to get it. >> > If I understood you correctly, you live in or near Tahlequah, Oleta, and > there may be a copy of the book there. But when I read it several years > ago, I had > to get it on interlibrary loan and there were only seven copies anywhere > in > the U.S available to be loaned out. It may have been since reprinted, but > that > was the case four or five years ago. > > Leo > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Sorry Oleta....got my dates mixed up. I did post something that is quite thorough in it's outlining of the various rolls, etc. This is not my work...but it does show the detail on the arrival of Cherokee into OK previous to the TOT or emigrants as this article refers to them. jes

This is a very brief writing to record the various groups going to OK previous to the TOT. A few Cherokee started moving west, first to what is now Missouri, where they did not stay long because of a series of earthquakes there (New Madrid Earthquake, Missouri Territory). Most of these moved to what is now Arkansas, or returned east. By 1817, there were about 5,000 Cherokee in what is now Arkansas. The states of Georgia and Tennessee wanted the remainder to leave. There was a treaty ceding lands in Georgia and Tennessee in return for an equal amount of land in Arkansas Territory, the first Indian Territory.” This became known as the Cherokee Cession of 1817. The land was located between the _Arkansas and White Rivers_ (http://www.tngenweb.org/cessions/18170708.html#5) . The cession was extinguished by the U.S. at the time of the _New Echota Treaty_ (http://www.tngenweb.org/cessions/18351229.html) , 1835, which led directly to removal, “The Trail of Tears.” This is to say, until 1839, most of the remaining Cherokee lived east of the Mississippi. After 1839, most probably lived west of the river. A much smaller number remained in the Old Cherokee Nation east of the Mississippi, hence the two modern bands of the Cherokee, Western and Eastern. ((“Cherokee Nation East” is a modern concept, not used by the Cherokee people at the time. In early historic times (1755), the divisions were Over Hill Towns, Valley Towns, Middle Towns, Keowee Towns, Out Towns, and Lower Towns, all referencing the general location of the Cherokee towns.)) The Cherokee Nation after the Trail of Tears was divided into several different groups. Those who removed *prior* to the Trail of Tears were known as *Old Settlers,* (some of who went into Texas -- to be known as the Texas Cherokee), the Emigrant Cherokee, and the Treaty Party. ((*Texas Cherokee* is a modern convention, not used by the Cherokee. Those who came to Texas were known as Diwali’s band for the leader of that group. ” Offically” they were present from about 1819 (a small band) and 1840 (a larger group invited by Sam Houston and Stephen F. Austin to aid in the Texans revolt against Mexico -- the Cherokee were expected to buffer the immigrant Texicans from the Comanche and Kiowa who believed that what is now Texas was their hunting grounds. There are remnant descendants of Diwali’s band and the subsequent “buffer” group who still live in Texas and Mexico, but they are not recognized by any of the Federal tribes as a tribe. The Emigrants and the Treaty Party are basically the same group, although the Treaty Group (re: New Echota Treaty of 1835), are the active political group who were blamed for Removal.)) The *Old Settlers* (mostly settling in Arkansas, between 1817 and 1835) removed so as to get away from the _White Intruders_ (http://www.tngenweb.org/tnland/intruders/) in the Old Cherokee Nation. This list of Rolls has been gleaned from the Internet. I have included microfilm numbers if known, however, these numbers have not been verified! No books or CDs included. I do not guarantee that this list is without error and omissions -- and the Rolls may be known with two (or more) different names. Therefore, I may have them listed here TWICE! By Fred Smoot With special thanks to Glen Davis for the needed corrections and additions! List of Rolls 1817 Reservation Roll (those requesting a reservation). The _1817 treaty_ (http://www.tngenweb.org/cessions/18170708.html#8) allowed for a six hundred and forty acre life estate per head of household, which upon the death of the grantee, or abandonment of the land by the grantee, reverted to the state; microfilm Group 75. 1817 Emigration Roll (1817-1835 Old Settlers) microfilm A21. 1835 Henderson Roll (also called the Trail of Tears roll). 16,000 plus Cherokee residing in Alabama, Georgia, North Carolina, and Tennessee who were supposed to remove to Indian Territory under New Echota Treaty of 1835; microfilm T496. 1848 Mullay Roll (resided in North Carolina). 1,517 Cherokee remaining in North Carolina after removal. Taken as a result of an Act of Congress; microfilm 7RA6. 1851 Old Settlers Roll This is the Roll of those still alive in 1851, who were already resident in *Oklahoma* by 1839, when the emigrants arrived. This group was about 1/3 the total Cherokee population in what is now Oklahoma. Note: it is important to recognize that this census did not include those “Old Settlers” who remained in Arkansas, Texas, or Mexico; microfilm M-685, Reel 12. 1851 Siler Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) microfilm 7RA6. 1852 Chapman Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) The Chapman Roll was taken in 1851 by Alfred Chapman . This roll, which followed almost immediately the Siler Roll, was a result of many complaints by various Cherokees of having been omitted by Siler (JWJ) microfilm M-685. 1852 Drennen Roll (Emigrant Cherokee in Indian Territory). This roll was the first census of the emigrants/new arrivals of 1839. This was the “Trail of Tears” survivors, or New Echota Treaty Group; microfilm M-685. 1854 Act of Congress Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) microfilm 7RA6. 1860 Census (of whites in Cherokee Nation) 1867 Tompkin Roll microfilm 7RA4. 1867 Census of Cherokee East of the Mississippi microfilm 7A29. 1867 Kern-Clifton Roll of Cherokee Freedmen , January 16, 1867. 1869 Sweatland Roll (resided in North Carolina ) NARA roll, but number not found. 1880 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA7. 1880 Lipe Roll microfilm 7RA33. 1883 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA29 Reels 1 & 2. 1883 Cherokee Roll microfilm 7RA56. 1883 Hester Roll (Cherokee East of the Mississippi) microfilm M685. 1886 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA58. 1890 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA60. 1890 Cherokee Payment Roll (The Receipt Roll) microfilm 7RA59. 1890 Wallace Roll (of Cherokee Freedmen in Indian Territory) ((Wallace Roll of Cherokee Freedmen in Indian Territory. These rolls were created because the Cherokee citizenship of many ex-slaves of the Cherokee in Indian Territory was disputed by the Cherokee tribe. The establishment of their status was important in determining their right to live on Cherokee land and to share in certain annuity and other payments, including a special $75,000 award voted by Congress on October 19, 1888. A series of investigations was conducted in order to compile the rolls of the Cherokee Freedmen. These investigations were conducted by John W. Wallace, 1889-1890; Leo E. Bennett, 1891-92; Marcus D. Shelby, 1893; James G. Dickson, 1895-96; and William Clifton, William Thompson, and Robert H. Kern, 1896-97.)) 1893 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA54. 1894 Starrs Roll microfilm 7RA38. 1896 Old Settlers Payment (for Descendants of Old Settlers) microfilm 7RA34. 1896 Cherokee Census microfilm 7RA19. 1898-1902 (1914) Dawes Roll ((Rolls of Citizens and Freedmen of the Five Civilized Tribes in Indian Territory consisting of 634 pages of names. The Dawes Commission was organized in 1893 to accept applications for tribal enrollment between 1899 and 1907 (some were added as late as 1914), mostly from Indians who resided in the Indian Territory which later became the State of Oklahoma. Tribal membership entitled qualified individuals to land allotments from the U.S. Government. These enrollment records were eventually published as the Dawes Commission, also known as The Five Civilized Tribes, which consisted of the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek and Seminole Tribes.)) Perhaps this info will help all who are searching. jes

Sorry dear....but if you look at the Old Settler roll of 1817...you'll see those who came in before the TOT. jes

AR....Litte Rock, University of AR, Sequoah Research Center (I believe), has extensive work on the various routes....as all of them went through their state. They also have an extensive digital library, that has articles in papers, written of the accounts of the boat loads of "natives" who took the water route. AR is also rich with native history from the time, previous to 1817, when Cherokee were allotted land over near what is now "Fort Smith". In fact, the Keetowah Band of Cherokee is working with a developer and the BIA to purchase (I believe) land that was originally allotted to them before they were moved to OK in 1817. They are planning to erect a casino, shopping mall, etc., For details on that....go to the Keetowah Band site....and read there info. My belief is also that when the Chickamaugan Cherokee, separated from the rest of the Cherokee, in the 1770's; they aligned with other tribes, who were fighting the ceding of land. There is some information, that there were groups who settled in AR. I would research that line of thought, for those looking for history that is settled in AR. Previously I talked about a Massacre of Women and Children, who were Chicamaugan. I misquoted the date...it was 1805....not 1817. There is an account online. If you search on Massacre of Women and Children in 1805. In order to understand the removal....we first have to understand all that came before it....from the time when the first eastern europeans traveled to the US. The initial folks that came were very different than those who came later looking to take land, gold, etc. Not all who came were inhospitable to the natives. In fact, if you study the true history of Jamestown...you will see without the friendship that was extended by the native people their colony would not have survived.....as it was. Also.....I have read some accounts of the indentured folks, the free african americans, and the native americans who may have been enslaved (this was often done by tribes warring against each other) on the Atlantic seaboard that could have been the precusor to the "melungeons". Reading about their ethnicitiies....and how they came to be is very interesting. Unfortunately, the most important things are lost....as those who write history back then were caucasian and they didnt' value that information. But....that's something to research as well. As you can see, to truly understand all that was going on.....the truth of it.....you will have to take a course in "indian studies". But, I will also mention again that "Indian Country Today" is a valuable resource for current information...as well as traditions, etc. All from the mouth of those who know the history....the native people themselves. jes

Lena wrote: "could some on direct me to the old maps of Arkansas Territory?" >Lena- > Go to http://www.cherokee.net and click on "Arkansas Territory Map" jc > >

Well....Georgia and the gold is the reason I believe the removal was pushed along. First GA started doing stuff as a state to get the natives out of there.....and then Andrew Jackson finally stepped in. I think if you read the history from about when the CHerokee were enlisted to fight with Jackson, against the Creeks....with the payment being the Creek land...you'll see the hand writing on the wall. Georgians weren't getting the kind of support they wanted from the US Government, so they enacted stuff on a state level. Many whites, who wer friends of the Cherokee went to the US Government and asked for intervention. Then laws were enacted that didn't allow the whites to live with or intermarry. This was a law that the Georgians enacted to keep white "friends" of the Cherokee (etc) to speak for them on a federal level. Jackson had to intervene....as these friends who were well known folks appealed on the federal level...but he didn't give them federal troops to uphold that federal intervention....purposely. This is all paraphased ....please go back to Georgia history...previous to the removal and folow that to the actual laws that Jackson finally enacted....to remove all natives from those areas. jes

I do not know why the John Beck's family arrived two days earlier than the rest of the group. They had their first child in March so maybe they hurried to try and get there for the sake of the newborn child. I do have the book and it says that they arrived two days before the others in the back of the book. John was the brother of Mary Beck who is my 2nd great grandmother. I have not studied John's family line in great detail but there are many descendants that are still living in OK around Chelsea, Rogers Co., OK there are reunions every few years. I do live in PA so do not know if I will ever get to OK again. Mary and her Mother Susannah Buffington Beck Emory and her stepfather and other family members moved in 1837 to Indian Territory. They appear to have traveled on their own west. Surry Eaton was wealthy and so moved west with his wife and their children. They had enough people and wagons to make their own little wagon train.He also had I gather this from the Transprotation and subsistance money that they recieved for the move and the money that he got from his evulation of his property in GA. He had six slaves with him on the trip west and this probably made the trip a little easier. Why John and his wife decided to move before the other is unknown to me. I do not know why some went west before the TOT. The Georgia and Federal Goverment made it very unconfortable for them and maybe they decided to get out while the getting was good. How much money they had probably efected their decision to go. I think that more mixed bloods moved early than fulbloods. I am not an expert on this subject and have never given it deep thought. Also some people are more stubborn that others and how much education they had may effect this decision also. Leaving a place that has been their only home is a very hard one. I am sure that many families were split apart by the push west by the goverment. Surry Eaton's land was taken in the gold lottery so I guess that is one reason that he moved west a little before the others. He was white and married to an Indian and was caught and put in jail for not haveing a permit to be in the nation. Why some went earlier that others probably depended on many reeasons. I think that many relized that staying was useless and that the deck was stacked against them. The Drennen roll lists those who are consideded to be on the TOT and Mary and her husband and Susannah and her children by her second husband are on that list even though they left a little early and went on their own. Maybe you can expound on this subject better than I can. Sometimes you just grit you teeth and do things that you do not want to do. These are the people who I believe traveled together on their own west in one wagon trail. Surry Eaton-five children 2 adults, 6 slaves Mary Beck Downing adult Arah Beck Richardson adult Joseph Beck- four children 2 adults and 3 slaves Rutha Hicks Beck and one child There were probably others too. Glee ----- Original Message ----- From: <wauhilau@webtv.net> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2006 12:14 AM Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] 1834 emigration > Glee, > > Do you have a copy of "River Trail", by Jane Noble? > If not, this would be a great addition to your library as it details Lt. > Harris' 1834 emigration of the Cherokee. > > I wonder if you could expound on the reason your family arrived in IT a > few days earlier than the larger body of the emigant party? > > Also, could you expound perhaps on your thoughts as to what part the > extension of the Georgia laws over the Cherokee Nation had to do with > the impetus for this migration, and, what part, if any, that the prior > exit of Duncan O'Briant and Humphrey Posey and the exodus of the > Christianized Cherokee prior to the formal Trail of Tears, 1838-39, > might have played in this particular emigration group? > > This was a pivotal period that led up to the eventual forced emigration > of 1838-39 and I look forward to any thoughts you might have on the > subject. > > Sgi, > > MW > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

could some on direct me to the old maps of Arkansas Territory? I have searched many years on my Wright line, that went from Georgia to Arkansas, around Fort Sebastian, and cannot find my great grandmother's parents or what happened to her brother Sterling. I have photo's of Nancy and all of her history, she was killed by a bull she raised, but nothing on her parents. Lena

While everyone is talking. Does anyone have any knowledge of my elusive ancestors? My grandfather was Charles Winston Fredrick Ray Bryant. He claimed to have been born near Hattiesburg Mississippi but no birth records have ever been located. He was the youngest of four children that I know of...two sisters and one brother. He had no memory of his mother since she died either during or shortly after his birth. They arrived in Arkansas around 1910. The only name that was ever known for his father was simply "Jesse Bryant" he is buried in an unmarked grave in Saline County, Arkansas. I have a copy of one old photo which shows him as a very dark man (compared to the white man standing beside him in a corn field) tall, with dark hair. The picture is not very clear. The family traveled to OK, and then back to AR. As a child I was told my great grandmother was Indian. But no one remains alive that has any information to my knowledge about her. My grandfather received his social security as a result of an aunt who wrote a letter stating she was present at his birth. My other elusive side carries the last name Beard. My great grandfather was named Henry Hoyt Beard and was born near Rome, Ga. That is as far back as I have been able to trace. He was born some where around 1880-1890. I don't have the exact date handy. His mother's name was Molly, she married a gentleman with the last name Tull in Arkansas prior to 1900. Hoyt married Mae Bell Martin in Saline County Arkansas. I know nothing about her. Other family names are Rowland, Lowrance, Crowson. The Crowson line is pretty much searched out back to VA in the mid 1600's. The Rowland and Lowrance families migrated through Tenn. and northern Ga that I know for sure. I'm really glad to see and read all the communication during the last week or so. I've been on this list for a long time and this is the most active I've seen it. Great to see all the communications. Glad you are all here. Cindy C ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy C" <Arkiebell@hotmail.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Cox Family - Atoka City and Stringtown,Oklahoma > The Choctaws and other tribes were also removed during the time of the > TOT. > There routes were different, but they were removed just the same. Many of > the Choctaws did come from central and lower Mississippi. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Tkstet1@aol.com> > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 02, 2006 5:16 PM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Cox Family - Atoka City and > Stringtown,Oklahoma > > >> Ok,---Tn,Mississippi,Ar,Ok,To California...thanks dont have notes in >> front >> of >> me to give it all. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Glee, Do you have a copy of "River Trail", by Jane Noble? If not, this would be a great addition to your library as it details Lt. Harris' 1834 emigration of the Cherokee. I wonder if you could expound on the reason your family arrived in IT a few days earlier than the larger body of the emigant party? Also, could you expound perhaps on your thoughts as to what part the extension of the Georgia laws over the Cherokee Nation had to do with the impetus for this migration, and, what part, if any, that the prior exit of Duncan O'Briant and Humphrey Posey and the exodus of the Christianized Cherokee prior to the formal Trail of Tears, 1838-39, might have played in this particular emigration group? This was a pivotal period that led up to the eventual forced emigration of 1838-39 and I look forward to any thoughts you might have on the subject. Sgi, MW