thanks I mailed off for ours today, hopefully we'll get more info. We have the roll #'s, i guess I am hoping for better dates and info...we'll see! Thanks to all for your help. Carla
Carla When I ordered through the NARA with the census card number, I got entire packets 10-20 pages of related info, their entire file related to that specif census card. Carri Carla wrote: Ok I see where to get the census card for dawes roll but is there a way to order the applications, case #'s and info in their files? Carla
Ok I see where to get the census card for dawes roll but is there a way to order the applications, case #'s and info in their files? Carla
Any body out there familiar with David Taylor's son Clayborne Cass Taylor?
---- James Brown <patton14@crosstel.net> wrote: "Thank you so much Lathel Duffield. I would also like to know the answer to that question. If there are not entitlements involved..............?" At one time, there were "entitlements"- they shared in several payments (see Cherokee Wallace roll, for example) and due to the insistence of the US Government, they shared in the land allotments. jc
Thanks Lathel....see I knew someone else would know the answer to that question. So, explain to me why the government was so insistent on the rolls of the freedmen, if their was no entitltement involved? If you know why....or you have a supposition. Given that the whole idea of having a roll.....was government directed. So, this might very well lead into the other issues I mentioned, with folks today who carry the heritage (african american/native american) who are unable to document, or legitimize their heritage?? Reminds me a bit, of some of the remarks made about the "melungeons", in some of the writings I ran across the other day. Apparently, in the need to "label" people this is confusing....and also in a way it is de-valuing of that person's history. I wrote before about the supposition I had seen regarding the melungeon heritage. In a way the division was not by ethnicity....but by economic strata. The indentured folks who came across (mostly caucasian), the african american (freed if i understand correctly), and the native americans who may have been enslaved.....all three experiencing lesser rights in a society that prizes money and power (or access to it). If it's been hard for the fullbood native person to access their background, and therefore their rights....and then hard for the mixed blood to follow back to the proper rolls......to gain knowledge and their rights....what about this ethnicity who(apparently)has no rights and no documents to even show that they could have but don't?? Just philosophical statements. jes
James....it is my understanding that being on that role would give this man the same enrollment rights as any one else who can trace their ancestral line back to the roll. I guess I would ask those on this list if they know if that is, or is not true. Perhaps this man was not familiar with what the "card carrying" entitles any member of any tribe (each being different by tribe, I would imagine....according to the laws of the tribe itself). My sketchy history on the freedman rolls is that at best "sketchy". To paraphase an article I read on the Creeks and their feelings about the Dawes....it seems that the US government was the perpetuator of the Dawes, in order to eventually make It A STATE....OKLAHOMA. It was the last ditch effort of the government to assimilate those tribes into the non-communal way of life, of the europeans (which had been unsuccessful so far). I would read "Of Snakes and Scribes" (an article written of the Creek sentiments about the Dawes.). The government said that the 5 Civilized Tribes (anglo terms for the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, and Seminole....those who did the TOT) had to include the african american people, who traveled with them to OK, who had been enslaved by them, as members of the tribe. Hence the rolls were called "Freedman rolls". If anyone else can put more specifics to this.....or corrections....please do so. I would like to learn if there was a difference between those rights that folks have (membership), if they were on those freedman rolls....versus the other rolls. I do know that personally, that I have talked with individuals, who have the native/african american heritage, and that several have expressed, that it has been hard being accepted by the native tribe....as native. I know that was true of the caucasian/native american ancestry also....not by all...but by some. That appears to have gotten somewhat better....but I sense that there is more reluctance now of the african american/native. Once again, I do not speak in generalities....simply what I have seen, or heard of in my personal experience. I welcome all new sources of information and knowledge. jes
Mr. Brown Cards for the Freedman of the Five Civilized tribes, normally would not carry any blood designations unless the Indian parent of the former slave was known. Dawes and company did not record the blood degree of the Freedmen because the Freedmen did not have the legal status as citizens of the tribe. The card may have been simply a statement that the person whose name is on the card and an ancestor who was on the Freedman roll of that Particular tribe. When the Dawes rolls were closed and made final by congress the legislation froze the dates of birth and the amount of blood possessed by the person whose name was on the roll. Even if it could be proven that the blood degree was erroneous and the date of birth was incorrect, it would take an act of Congress to make the corrections. Lathel ----- Original Message ----- From: James Brown<mailto:patton14@crosstel.net> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 10:19 AM Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] freedmen enrollment Would someone explain to me please. What is a " Choctaw Freedman" ? I had always believed it was the descendent of a slave formerly owned by a Choctaw that was accepted into the tribe after slavery was abolished. But recently a man I know. made a remark that he finally got his " Freedman Choctaw" card. He was referring to CDIB. he goes on to say but its worthless.. It doesnt matter to me what he has.. It just reminded me that I didnt know anything about the topic. He went on to say that it documented he was Black, Choctaw and Caucasion. My question is if such a card documented Choctaw ancestry, then why would it not be the federally recognized CDIB card, regardless of what other ancestry a person might possess? James Brown ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Thank you so much Lathel Duffield. I would also like to know the answer to that question. If there are not entitlements involved..............? ----- Original Message ----- From: <HealTheCircle@aol.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 10:04 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] freedmen enrollment > Thanks Lathel....see I knew someone else would know the answer to that > question. So, explain to me why the government was so insistent on the > rolls of > the freedmen, if their was no entitltement involved? If you know > why....or > you have a supposition. Given that the whole idea of having a > roll.....was > government directed. > > So, this might very well lead into the other issues I mentioned, with > folks > today who carry the heritage (african american/native american) who are > unable > to document, or legitimize their heritage?? Reminds me a bit, of some of > the remarks made about the "melungeons", in some of the writings I ran > across > the other day. Apparently, in the need to "label" people this is > confusing....and also in a way it is de-valuing of that person's history. > > I wrote before about the supposition I had seen regarding the melungeon > heritage. In a way the division was not by ethnicity....but by economic > strata. > The indentured folks who came across (mostly caucasian), the african > american (freed if i understand correctly), and the native americans who > may have > been enslaved.....all three experiencing lesser rights in a society that > prizes > money and power (or access to it). > > If it's been hard for the fullbood native person to access their > background, > and therefore their rights....and then hard for the mixed blood to follow > back to the proper rolls......to gain knowledge and their rights....what > about > this ethnicity who(apparently)has no rights and no documents to even show > that they could have but don't?? > > Just philosophical statements. > > jes > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >
Wado Dan, I'm sorry, I don't have that information. However, I do recall a post made by someone regarding Stand Waite, with regard to the Civil War...I am hoping that person will see your post, and be able to help you. If not, have you tried searching on Stand Waite, Civil War, and the name of the battle. I would think that you might find something that way. Or, perhaps, if you go to the Indian Country Today site.....and see if they have anything in their archival info regarding him. Or the The Cherokee Nation (Western or Eastern). We have so many knowledgeable folks who respond to these postings. Perhaps someone else can help you. jes
To get copies of the Dawes census cards go to http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/ NARA search site. In the search box type "index to final rolls" and hit the "Go" button. I select the result that has digital copies. If you click on the digital copies, you will be able to view the actual digital coipies of the index to the final rolls for the five civilized tribes. It begins with the Choctaws, Mississippi Choctaw,Chickasaws, Cherokees, Creeks and Seminole... Find the name of your relative, in alphabetic order. Minors, newborns,Choctaws by marriage, and Choctaw Freedmen are listed after the initial section entitled "Choctaws by blood". Next to your relatives name you will find their own personal roll number. Write the number down. Go back to the seach page and search " Final Rolls". You will then look for your relative based on the roll number. Next to each family group will be the census card number. You will need the following to order copies: Or you can use this link and follw the directions there: http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/rolls-index.html You can use this link to go directly to a list of the index for the five civilized tribes: http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/native-americans-final-rolls.html And finally, you can order copies following these directions: After a person's enrollment category and final roll number have been determined, the final rolls can be searched to discover the enrollee's census card number. A copy of the census card can be obtained by writing the National Archives--Southwest Region, P.O. Box 6216, Fort Worth, TX 76115-0216. The cost is $10 per census card. Carri -----Original Message----- From: coram@cableone.net To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 5:29 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll I would like to know how to request a census card aswell. ----- Original Message ----- From: <repete58@alltel.net> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > Carla, > Will you explain to me how to request a census card? > Kathy >> >> From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> >> Date: 2006/09/08 Fri AM 10:35:31 CDT >> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll >> >> thanks, I think I will request the census card. >> Carla >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
Would someone explain to me please. What is a " Choctaw Freedman" ? I had always believed it was the descendent of a slave formerly owned by a Choctaw that was accepted into the tribe after slavery was abolished. But recently a man I know. made a remark that he finally got his " Freedman Choctaw" card. He was referring to CDIB. he goes on to say but its worthless.. It doesnt matter to me what he has.. It just reminded me that I didnt know anything about the topic. He went on to say that it documented he was Black, Choctaw and Caucasion. My question is if such a card documented Choctaw ancestry, then why would it not be the federally recognized CDIB card, regardless of what other ancestry a person might possess? James Brown
Carri, THANK YOU!!!! Kathy > > From: kehkeh1@aol.com > Date: 2006/09/09 Sat AM 08:59:43 CDT > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > > To get copies of the Dawes census cards go to http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/ NARA search site. In the search box type "index to final rolls" and hit the "Go" button. I select the result that has digital copies. If you click on the digital copies, you will be able to view the actual digital coipies of the index to the final rolls for the five civilized tribes. It begins with the Choctaws, Mississippi Choctaw,Chickasaws, Cherokees, Creeks and Seminole... Find the name of your relative, in alphabetic order. Minors, newborns,Choctaws by marriage, and Choctaw Freedmen are listed after the initial section entitled "Choctaws by blood". Next to your relatives name you will find their own personal roll number. Write the number down. Go back to the seach page and search " Final Rolls". You will then look for your relative based on the roll number. Next to each family group will be the census card number. You will need the following to order copies: > > > Or you can use this link and follw the directions there: > > http://www.archives.gov/genealogy/tutorial/dawes/rolls-index.html > > You can use this link to go directly to a list of the index for the five civilized tribes: > > http://www.archives.gov/research/arc/native-americans-final-rolls.html > > > > And finally, you can order copies following these directions: > > After a person's enrollment category and final roll number have been determined, the final rolls can be searched to discover the enrollee's census card number. A copy of the census card can be obtained by writing the National Archives--Southwest Region, P.O. Box 6216, Fort Worth, TX 76115-0216. The cost is $10 per census card. > > > > Carri > > > -----Original Message----- > From: coram@cableone.net > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 5:29 AM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > > > I would like to know how to request a census card aswell. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <repete58@alltel.net> > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:35 AM > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > > > > Carla, > > Will you explain to me how to request a census card? > > Kathy > >> > >> From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > >> Date: 2006/09/08 Fri AM 10:35:31 CDT > >> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > >> Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > >> > >> thanks, I think I will request the census card. > >> Carla > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > -- > > No virus found in this incoming message. > > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
I would like to know how to request a census card aswell. ----- Original Message ----- From: <repete58@alltel.net> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > Carla, > Will you explain to me how to request a census card? > Kathy >> >> From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> >> Date: 2006/09/08 Fri AM 10:35:31 CDT >> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> >> Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll >> >> thanks, I think I will request the census card. >> Carla >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.2/442 - Release Date: 9/8/2006 > >
Carla, Will you explain to me how to request a census card? Kathy > > From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > Date: 2006/09/08 Fri AM 10:35:31 CDT > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Dawes Roll > > thanks, I think I will request the census card. > Carla > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >
unsubscribe -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 9/4/2006
http://www.unitedkeetoowahband.org/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Maloney, Daniel Lee To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:55 PM Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Keetowah Where is the Keetowah web site?
Where is the Keetowah web site? ________________________________ From: indian-territory-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of HealTheCircle@aol.com Sent: Sun 9/3/2006 7:37 AM To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Cox Family - Atoka City and Stringtown,Oklahoma AR....Litte Rock, University of AR, Sequoah Research Center (I believe), has extensive work on the various routes....as all of them went through their state. They also have an extensive digital library, that has articles in papers, written of the accounts of the boat loads of "natives" who took the water route. AR is also rich with native history from the time, previous to 1817, when Cherokee were allotted land over near what is now "Fort Smith". In fact, the Keetowah Band of Cherokee is working with a developer and the BIA to purchase (I believe) land that was originally allotted to them before they were moved to OK in 1817. They are planning to erect a casino, shopping mall, etc., For details on that....go to the Keetowah Band site....and read there info. My belief is also that when the Chickamaugan Cherokee, separated from the rest of the Cherokee, in the 1770's; they aligned with other tribes, who were fighting the ceding of land. There is some information, that there were groups who settled in AR. I would research that line of thought, for those looking for history that is settled in AR. Previously I talked about a Massacre of Women and Children, who were Chicamaugan. I misquoted the date...it was 1805....not 1817. There is an account online. If you search on Massacre of Women and Children in 1805. In order to understand the removal....we first have to understand all that came before it....from the time when the first eastern europeans traveled to the US. The initial folks that came were very different than those who came later looking to take land, gold, etc. Not all who came were inhospitable to the natives. In fact, if you study the true history of Jamestown...you will see without the friendship that was extended by the native people their colony would not have survived.....as it was. Also.....I have read some accounts of the indentured folks, the free african americans, and the native americans who may have been enslaved (this was often done by tribes warring against each other) on the Atlantic seaboard that could have been the precusor to the "melungeons". Reading about their ethnicitiies....and how they came to be is very interesting. Unfortunately, the most important things are lost....as those who write history back then were caucasian and they didnt' value that information. But....that's something to research as well. As you can see, to truly understand all that was going on.....the truth of it.....you will have to take a course in "indian studies". But, I will also mention again that "Indian Country Today" is a valuable resource for current information...as well as traditions, etc. All from the mouth of those who know the history....the native people themselves. jes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Jes, You seem to have a good knowledge of Tsilagi history. Would you happern to know if Stand Watie was at the Civil War Battle of Wilson's Creek or if his supporters were active in the battle. Wado, Dan ________________________________ From: indian-territory-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com on behalf of dott114029@aol.com Sent: Thu 9/7/2006 2:12 PM To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] unsubscribe -----Original Message----- From: HealTheCircle@aol.com To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com Sent: Sun, 3 Sep 2006 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] 1834 emigration Well....Georgia and the gold is the reason I believe the removal was pushed along. First GA started doing stuff as a state to get the natives out of there.....and then Andrew Jackson finally stepped in. I think if you read the history from about when the CHerokee were enlisted to fight with Jackson, against the Creeks....with the payment being the Creek land...you'll see the hand writing on the wall. Georgians weren't getting the kind of support they wanted from the US Government, so they enacted stuff on a state level. Many whites, who wer friends of the Cherokee went to the US Government and asked for intervention. Then laws were enacted that didn't allow the whites to live with or intermarry. This was a law that the Georgians enacted to keep white "friends" of the Cherokee (etc) to speak for them on a federal level. Jackson had to intervene....as these friends who were well known folks appealed on the federal level...but he didn't give them federal troops to uphold that federal intervention....purposely. This is all paraphased ....please go back to Georgia history...previous to the removal and folow that to the actual laws that Jackson finally enacted....to remove all natives from those areas. jes ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM. All on demand. Always Free. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
thanks, I think I will request the census card. Carla