just out of curiosity Oleta, why didn't you get the CDIB? Carla

Dear Robin, Our family went through this. They were wealthy in the East and my family is pretty well known-written about in many books and even though my Grandfather was one half he was not allowed to be Guardian for his children-had to have whites appointed and yes you can guess what happened. My sister-in-laws cousin married a wealthy Osage and she had a son . She had to get permission to buy him shoes and this happened in the 40s or 50s. In a lot of cases the amount of blood varies because the people did not want to be restricted if they were more than one fourth. I am a Cherokee-volunteered for five years in our State Indian Archives working closely with BIA, etc. in Washington. The Dawes enrollment was for Cherokees who had landed in Indian Territory and this was between 1898 and 1906-anyone born after that could get certified from either parents or grandparents who were on the rolls. I've never gotten a CDIB card but am right at one half. I too am descended from Nancy Ward. I'm also retired from DHEW-Indian Health Service. Oleta On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:51:39 EDT Smithfx7@aol.com writes: > I am Cherokee and have a CDIB card and am a citizen of the Cherokee > Nation > in OK. My ancestors that are listed on the Dawes all have varying > degrees of > blood quantum, siblings with the same parents have different blood > degrees. > I was always told by my grandparents and great grandmother that > most were > afraid to say they were more Cherokee than they really were because > if you were > more than a 1/4 the government would assign a white overseer of > your > allotment. My blood line is fairly easy to trace since I am a > descendant of Nancy > Ward on my grandfather's side and Major John Downing on my > grandmother's side > there was a lot of documentation . I also see differences in blood > degree > on the 1900 census vs the Dawes roll in what my ancestors listed. > I think > that makes no difference in how that reflected in their Cherokee > pride. We > have to remember that times were different back then most were just > trying to > survive. My ancestors started out wealthy and ended up poor my > great > grandmother lost her husband and 6 children from sickness and > accidents and on both > sides of my family they had houses that burned down. I think it > has taken > all the way up to my generation to catch up, my sister's and I are > the first > to own houses and be able to keep up with the Jones's. > > Robin Smith > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

would they have had to inform the heirs of said taxes, or is it ignorance is no excuse kind of thing? I know they had addresses for the heirs because of checks sent to them before... Carla

Those on the Choctaw roll were James, Zarabelle and their kids. Yes, they did extra work to prove not on other tribes, as in the case with Zarabelle, they only approved her after confirming that she was not on Cherokee Tribe enrollment, like her mother Flora Alexander. Zarabelle was 1/4 Choctaw, from her dad's side I assume, Thomas Caprock Crowder (Son of Eli White Crowder). James was listed as 3/4 Choctaw and is the father of my husband's great grandpa. His dad was Gibson Going, who was married to Sokey Going. Bother were deceased before the Dawes Roll Applications. I sent off to FT Worth for the Application Jackets but was disappointed, the only info was the Census Card and just the contention items, like proof of birth and death of an infant, and Flora Alexander's Cherokee Nationality. No interviews, no application forms, as I had been led to believe. Do you suppose more info can be attained by going through Oklahoma H Society, instead? I appreciate all of y'alls help and info. We already have Choctaw membership for my boys and husband, so this isn't about money, or claims. It never was, just for the family tree and history, which I find fascinating, and sad. Carla

C arla, I'm a Cherokee and have many good friends who are Choctaws. . I don't think blood quantum has anything to do with it. The land was alloted when they enrolled and then when they died it should have gone to their survivors. My Grandfather was one half and his children were one fourth because their Mother was white.My Grandfather and the children were alloted land. My Great Grandfather dedicated enough land for a Cemetery in Fort Gibson. On the restrictions -anyone who was one half or over was restricted and had to get clearance before they could buy. Ok on this land they did not have to pay taxes, etc. but when he died then they had to start paying taxes,etc because they were less than the one half. I think I've said this right.OletaOn Thu, 28 Sep 2006 17:00:18 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> writes: > Just curious...why is less blood allowing her not to be restricted > and what > does restricted entail? > I ask because the Choctaw nation says my husbands grandpa died > intestate > (without a will) and that though his land was restricted, because he > was 1/2 > and his heirs were 1/4, on his death the tax status and restrictions > were > removed. Even still shouldn't his heirs (and they were on the record > because > they got disbursements x2) known or been given the option to keep > taxes and > property in the family? Is this the same kind of restriction you are > > mentioning or another all together? > Carla > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

It really is a warped system... I mean if they didn't get land, and get on the Dawes Roll..they can't be members? That is so wrong, when there are full to 1/2 blood Indians who chose not to be removed or moved elsewhere and were wary, rightfully so of the white man's ways...and they are just screwed? Surely there is a just way around it...and what happens to the Indian who weren't "civilized"? Carla

Not always Oleta. There were the normal, usual shyster lawyers etc who took applications and held them until it was too late to file or did what they could to see to it the people who deserved the pmt didn't get it. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: "J W Kite Jr" <obengekite@juno.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > If they weren't acceptd then they could not prove any Cherokee Blood. > They were white. Who did you contact foe this information? Oleta > On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:10:49 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > writes: >> I did. And I sent off for the census card, but was a little >> disappointed in >> that only a few documents were sent, though several names were on >> the >> census. >> Names I need dates for are Gibson Going, Sokey Going Sealy >> Going....and >> Flora Alexander's family and connection to Cherokee Nation. Anyone >> else >> researching these names? >> MCR, names were Pyle's, and all I found out is that they didn't get >> accepted >> on Dawes. Any info You have would be appreciated. >> Carla >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.9/458 - Release Date: 9/27/2006 > >

Just curious...why is less blood allowing her not to be restricted and what does restricted entail? I ask because the Choctaw nation says my husbands grandpa died intestate (without a will) and that though his land was restricted, because he was 1/2 and his heirs were 1/4, on his death the tax status and restrictions were removed. Even still shouldn't his heirs (and they were on the record because they got disbursements x2) known or been given the option to keep taxes and property in the family? Is this the same kind of restriction you are mentioning or another all together? Carla

Hi Jim, Glad to hear from you. Here is what happened to my Grandmother. Grandpa Starr was murdered before Mom was born and my Grandmother married again. When Grandpa went to enroll ,he enrolled her too but he enrolled her for less blood so she would not be restricted. You can get a statement from BIA stating since she is daughter of so and so she would be considered to be her correct degree, Rolls can't be changed but they will do this because they did this on my Great Uncle. Oleta On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 16:26:52 -0400 "Jim Granger" <granger68@comcast.net> writes: > Regarding the issue of whether the Dawes enrollment clerks "guessed" > at the > applicant's degree of Indian blood, Kent Carter, in his book, The > Dawes > Commission, states on page 49 that, "Determining an applicant's > degree of > Indian blood proved to be difficult . . . . It appears that if an > applicant > did not claim to be a full-blood, the enrollment clerks estimated > the > fraction which they put in the 'degree of blood' column on the > official card > based on answers given about parents and grandparents." > > The testimony given by applicants was wildly inaccurate. As an > illustration, take the example of my great-grandmother Nannie Leona > Fields > and her siblings. Nannie and five of her brothers and sisters were > enrolled. They all had the same parents--James Sanford Fields and > Charlotte > E. Stover--and therefore should have had the same degree of Indian > blood. > Yet, that is > not the way it turned out on their Dawes records. They each > enrolled > individually, at different times and places, and they obviously did > not > collaborate before giving their testimony. Nannie is shown as 1/32 > Cherokee; her twin sister Carrie is recorded as 1/4; brother Moses > is 1/16; > sister Laura, 1/8; brother Robert, 3/8; and sister Maude is 1/8. > > Oleta, I am glad to see that you remain as feisty as ever, and I > want to > thank you again for all your help on the several occasions I > researched in > the OHS Archives. > > Jim Granger > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

If they weren't acceptd then they could not prove any Cherokee Blood. They were white. Who did you contact foe this information? Oleta On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:10:49 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> writes: > I did. And I sent off for the census card, but was a little > disappointed in > that only a few documents were sent, though several names were on > the > census. > Names I need dates for are Gibson Going, Sokey Going Sealy > Going....and > Flora Alexander's family and connection to Cherokee Nation. Anyone > else > researching these names? > MCR, names were Pyle's, and all I found out is that they didn't get > accepted > on Dawes. Any info You have would be appreciated. > Carla > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

Carla-One Census card was issued for Head of the Family. Also, maybe the family did not sign uo -Dawes Roll was betwwen 1898 and 1906 I believe it was. These are Cherokees I'm talking about. No each Tribe has their own Tribal Office. Choctaws are in Durant, Oklahoma and you would have to check with the individual Tribe. On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:10:49 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> writes: > I did. And I sent off for the census card, but was a little > disappointed in > that only a few documents were sent, though several names were on > the > census. > Names I need dates for are Gibson Going, Sokey Going Sealy > Going....and > Flora Alexander's family and connection to Cherokee Nation. Anyone > else > researching these names? > MCR, names were Pyle's, and all I found out is that they didn't get > accepted > on Dawes. Any info You have would be appreciated. > Carla > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

Carla--The Dawes Applic ations were taken between 1898 and 1906. It was not compulsory and those who wanted to enroll could. Each person was given a number and you can get copies of all this if you so desire and if they did enroll. Many Cherokees did not enroll however because they thought it was just another way for the Government to screw them.If two Tribes as a Cherokee marrying a Choctaw then if there are children the parents would have to choose which Tribe to register them as they could not claim in both Tribes. All this is on file at Oklahoma Historical Society. Also you can check the Rolls and see if they are there. You can check for anyone you wish to check on in any of the records available. Hope this is clear.If not write me again. Oleta On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:45:20 -0500 J W Kite Jr <obengekite@juno.com> writes: > Carla B., Did you ever get an answer on this? If not, write me as I > can > answer your questions. Oleta E. Kite > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:10:54 -0500 "Carla B" > <soarsister@cableone.net> > writes: > > Question on Dawes. What are the case # about and is there > documents > > to be > > had regarding them? > > Also, if a family was MCR, yet without a doubt Indian, is there > any > > other > > way to trace it, and how? If not for legalities in Tribal > > membership, then > > just for genealogy sake? > > Last Question, if a mother was Choctaw and the father was > Cherokee, > > or visa > > versa, is there a way to deterime degree of Indian blood using the > > > two > > combined or is each tribe individually considered? > > Carla > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the > > message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > >

I found a site from the state of Minnesota that may be helpful in someone's search for their Native American Roots. I am hoping we all find the path home. http://www.mnhs.org/genealogy/dakotafamily/index.htm http://www.mnhs.org/genealogy/dakotafamily/resources.htm http://www.mnhs.org/genealogy/ http://people.mnhs.org/dci/Results.cfm?FNAME=Arthur&bhcp=1 Diane ----- Original Message ----- From: <indian-territory-roots-request@rootsweb.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 2:00 AM Subject: INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 29 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ward Family (Smithfx7@aol.com) > 2. Thomas S Estes or Sherman T Estes (Mariesweet@aol.com) > 3. Re: resource (Carla B) > 4. Re: Natural Archives closure (J W Kite Jr) > 5. Re: Natural Archives closure (J W Kite Jr) > 6. Re: Natural Archives closure (Carla B) > 7. Re: Natural Archives closure (Carla B) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 11:51:31 EDT > From: Smithfx7@aol.com > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Ward Family > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <be9.2966cd9.3242bd83@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Larry, > > Great web page! I am related to Bryant Ward through his marriage to Nancy > Ward 6th or 7th grandparents. I am really interested in Bryant it seems > information about him goes no further back then him. I also liked all the > pictures you have posted on your site. Keep up the great work and thanks for > sharing! > > Robin Smith > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 12:19:19 EDT > From: Mariesweet@aol.com > Subject: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Thomas S Estes or Sherman T Estes > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <c4c.33ff088.3242c407@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > need help on this,my uncle Thomas Sherman Estes born 1867 in missouri,all i > know is he died in 1900 in indian territory,and suppose to be buried around > Chelsie Ok,or close to it,i would love to know just where and what cemetery he > is in,and if he might have a stone,i would take any kind of information on > Thomas and his family,his son Guy Estes who died in about 1895 is suppose to be > buried by Thomas,i live in colo but i,am planning a trip to okla to see if i > can find him, > hopeing for help > _mariesweet@aol.com_ (mailto:mariesweet@aol.com) > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:59:06 -0500 > From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] resource > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <008501c6dcff$fe4e66c0$6501a8c0@Boehm> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~itchocta/resources/addresses.htm > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2006 23:45:20 -0500 > From: J W Kite Jr <obengekite@juno.com> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <20060920.234520.2308.0.obengekite@juno.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carla B., Did you ever get an answer on this? If not, write me as I can > answer your questions. Oleta E. Kite > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:10:54 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > writes: > > Question on Dawes. What are the case # about and is there documents > > to be > > had regarding them? > > Also, if a family was MCR, yet without a doubt Indian, is there any > > other > > way to trace it, and how? If not for legalities in Tribal > > membership, then > > just for genealogy sake? > > Last Question, if a mother was Choctaw and the father was Cherokee, > > or visa > > versa, is there a way to deterime degree of Indian blood using the > > two > > combined or is each tribe individually considered? > > Carla > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:04:20 -0500 > From: J W Kite Jr <obengekite@juno.com> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <20060921.000420.2308.1.obengekite@juno.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Carla B.The info sent you by Lathel is not true as to Degree of Blood. > Each Cherokee at least knew his degree of blood. There was no guessing by > the person doing the enrollment. You people need to do a lot of reading > and studying. If a person had two Tribes mixed, they had to choose one > over the other in order to be enrolled. The Rolls were started a long > time ago and certainly are not artifical statements. I'm sorry but these > statements made by Lathel are the most ridiculous I've ever heard. I am > a Cherokee and that is because my Dad was A cHEROKEE and so was my Mom > . . I am able to prove all this with no trouble. Oleta E. Benge KITE > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:19:07 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com> > writes: > > Carla The degree of Indian Blood is an artificial statement based > > on a a series of past documents about how much "Indian blood" a > > person possesses. In earlier times, the blood amount was calculated > > (guessed) by the person conducting the census. There were no > > documents or other records that "proved" the amount of Indian blood > > and individual possessed. For government purposes, it is not the > > specific degree of Indian blood by tribe that can be attributed to a > > person -- it is the total amount of Indian blood. Therefore, like > > your questions asks, the Choctaw blood and the Cherokee blood would > > be added together for Federal Government purposes. However, for > > membership in the tribe, unless the tribal constitution specifically > > allowed for a combination of blood, then the person would have to > > meet the tribe's criteria. That requirement would have nothing to > > do with the Federal government. Lathel > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS > -request@rootsweb.com> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word > > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > > message > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:10:49 -0500 > From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <012901c6dd3c$4e335100$6501a8c0@Boehm> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I did. And I sent off for the census card, but was a little disappointed in > that only a few documents were sent, though several names were on the > census. > Names I need dates for are Gibson Going, Sokey Going Sealy Going....and > Flora Alexander's family and connection to Cherokee Nation. Anyone else > researching these names? > MCR, names were Pyle's, and all I found out is that they didn't get accepted > on Dawes. Any info You have would be appreciated. > Carla > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 00:14:26 -0500 > From: "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net> > Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <013901c6dd3c$ced5c450$6501a8c0@Boehm> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Do you know anything about a Flora Alexander? She was a Cherokee Citizen > recognized as Cherokee by blood. She married "Tour " Thomas Caprock Crowder > Carla > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS list administrator, send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS mailing list, send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS Digest, Vol 1, Issue 29 > ***************************************************** >

Regarding the issue of whether the Dawes enrollment clerks "guessed" at the applicant's degree of Indian blood, Kent Carter, in his book, The Dawes Commission, states on page 49 that, "Determining an applicant's degree of Indian blood proved to be difficult . . . . It appears that if an applicant did not claim to be a full-blood, the enrollment clerks estimated the fraction which they put in the 'degree of blood' column on the official card based on answers given about parents and grandparents." The testimony given by applicants was wildly inaccurate. As an illustration, take the example of my great-grandmother Nannie Leona Fields and her siblings. Nannie and five of her brothers and sisters were enrolled. They all had the same parents--James Sanford Fields and Charlotte E. Stover--and therefore should have had the same degree of Indian blood. Yet, that is not the way it turned out on their Dawes records. They each enrolled individually, at different times and places, and they obviously did not collaborate before giving their testimony. Nannie is shown as 1/32 Cherokee; her twin sister Carrie is recorded as 1/4; brother Moses is 1/16; sister Laura, 1/8; brother Robert, 3/8; and sister Maude is 1/8. Oleta, I am glad to see that you remain as feisty as ever, and I want to thank you again for all your help on the several occasions I researched in the OHS Archives. Jim Granger

I am Cherokee and have a CDIB card and am a citizen of the Cherokee Nation in OK. My ancestors that are listed on the Dawes all have varying degrees of blood quantum, siblings with the same parents have different blood degrees. I was always told by my grandparents and great grandmother that most were afraid to say they were more Cherokee than they really were because if you were more than a 1/4 the government would assign a white overseer of your allotment. My blood line is fairly easy to trace since I am a descendant of Nancy Ward on my grandfather's side and Major John Downing on my grandmother's side there was a lot of documentation . I also see differences in blood degree on the 1900 census vs the Dawes roll in what my ancestors listed. I think that makes no difference in how that reflected in their Cherokee pride. We have to remember that times were different back then most were just trying to survive. My ancestors started out wealthy and ended up poor my great grandmother lost her husband and 6 children from sickness and accidents and on both sides of my family they had houses that burned down. I think it has taken all the way up to my generation to catch up, my sister's and I are the first to own houses and be able to keep up with the Jones's. Robin Smith

Oleta Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying about blood quanta. The whole idea of categorizing our Indian ancestors on the basis of blood was not an Indian thing, it was imposed by the non-Indians (whites). This was done at a time when inheritance based on genes and chromosomes was not part of public knowledge. It was believed that blood was the carrier and determinant of a persons character, social status, and abilities. You no doubt have heard the terms - "bad blood "applied to two or more individuals when they are not getting along, or "blue blood" when applied to an individual who has been ascribed higher social status and blue bloods are suppose to marry blue bloods to maintain this status. During the 1800s, there was the idea that civilization as defined by the non-Indians was carried by the blood. Thus it was important to the government to know how much white blood compared to Indian blood an Individual possessed. A person with more white blood than Indian blood was presumed to be more civilized and thus could handle their own affairs. However, the individual who had more Indian blood compared to white blood was more uncivilized. I know this sounds crazy in today's times but there were many debates in the Congress of the United States when they were struggling to define Indians. (Even today, there is no government-wide definition for Indian. Each department can have its own definition and many do.) The discussion in this genealogy room focuses on the definition of Indian in use by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. The definition used by the Department of Education is different as are those definitions in use by other sections of the government. White society, for a full blood Indian, had no problem classifying the person as an Indian. It was all those "in between people" that created the problem. The whites did agree that Half bloods could be considered "civilized." If civilized, individuals were capable of handling their own affairs. This was important because some merchants would not sell on credit to Indians who were not at least half bloods because they had no ability to get their money when the Indian was a "ward" of the government. When the Dawes Rolls were published, there was a notice in the Wagoner, Oklahoma newspaper about its publication and it pointed out that the merchants could use the information when they were asked for credit by an Indian. If the Indians did not feel it was important to know the amount of Indian blood they possessed, how did this practice of recording their blood quanta come about. Looking at the information collected on early rolls is a good way to see the evolution of the application of blood quantum. The 1835 "Henderson Roll" of the Cherokees is a good example. In that roll, the original, not the ones that are partial and only list names of the heads of households, the blood quanta are listed not by individual but by family, I.e. if the adults are listed as 1/2 blood, what are presumably their four children who are not named are considered 1/4. It is interesting that this roll lists 1/4, 1/2 and full bloods but not 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, etc. I know my ancestors on that roll were not correctly identified and they had less Indian blood than they were given credit for. Today those smaller amounts are important and some tribes use such smaller amounts as criteria for tribal membership. For the 1835 census takers to have ask the people their blood degree would have been met with quizzical stares. Such categories would have no significance to the tribal members. See National Genealogical Society Quarterly, Vol 90, no. 3, Sept 2002 -- An Analysis of the 1835 Cherokee Census for some errors in that census. Once literacy was more widespread, then individual Indians learned their blood quantum and when asked they could tell the person. Today, blood quanta is important for those tribes which have a blood quanta requirement for membership so members of those tribes do know their ascribed blood quanta. (Membership in some tribes is based on descent from ancestors whose names appear on a base roll and blood quantum is not used). I have tried to summarize the use of blood as a classification that began in the early 1800s. It is a complicated. Because of its history and various usages I can not cover all the details. Did you know the Fed. Government, in the past, established "half blood" communities out west. These reservations are (were) made up of people from various tribes who are "half blood". They are recognized as "tribes". Lathel ----- Original Message ----- From: J W Kite Jr<mailto:obengekite@juno.com> To: indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com<mailto:indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:45 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure Carla B., Did you ever get an answer on this? If not, write me as I can answer your questions. Oleta E. Kite On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 12:10:54 -0500 "Carla B" <soarsister@cableone.net<mailto:soarsister@cableone.net>> writes: > Question on Dawes. What are the case # about and is there documents > to be > had regarding them? > Also, if a family was MCR, yet without a doubt Indian, is there any > other > way to trace it, and how? If not for legalities in Tribal > membership, then > just for genealogy sake? > Last Question, if a mother was Choctaw and the father was Cherokee, > or visa > versa, is there a way to deterime degree of Indian blood using the > two > combined or is each tribe individually considered? > Carla > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree with your statements, Jes and James B., I'm on many lists that pertain to surnames and NA research. I've seen statements made in an agressive tone when they shouldn't be. All too often, we, as humans, tend to let the day's stress and hardships influence how we feel when we read an email then respond in that same tone. But prejudice or hatefullness is unacceptable in any form.....any form at all....regardless of direction. Rather than be a smart alec, be a teacher...be a leader...remove the ignorance but don't be hateful about things. Prejudice is the one thing that we'll never resolve until we forget about its existence. Ignorance can be changed with knowledge given in a proper way. None of us can go back to change what happened in the past....the best we can do is change what happens now and in the future by trying to be a good influence on what goes on around us each day. Joyce Gaston Reece ----- Original Message ----- From: <HealTheCircle@aol.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > Oleta....we value all persons input. Whatever someone says, comes from > their perspective. However, it is the manner in which you respond, that > I > object. You have so much you could share...and we appreciate that. > However, I, > like James, do not appreciate the personally attacking tone. > > The one thing that I have found, in most of my quest for knowledge, in the > native community, is the mutual respect for questions, and > answers...whether > right or wrong. That's why your attitude is so puzzling. > > Wado, > jes > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.5/451 - Release Date: 9/19/2006 > >

Oleta....we value all persons input. Whatever someone says, comes from their perspective. However, it is the manner in which you respond, that I object. You have so much you could share...and we appreciate that. However, I, like James, do not appreciate the personally attacking tone. The one thing that I have found, in most of my quest for knowledge, in the native community, is the mutual respect for questions, and answers...whether right or wrong. That's why your attitude is so puzzling. Wado, jes

One more thought on this..your last statement, " I am able to prove all this with no trouble". If you have a CDIB the information on that card proves that you are a descendent of a person or persons that that was interviewed by the Dawes Commission and enrolled. You have proved your degree from that recorded information. What ever was recorded. I can easily make the same statement. James Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "J W Kite Jr" <obengekite@juno.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > Carla B.The info sent you by Lathel is not true as to Degree of Blood. > Each Cherokee at least knew his degree of blood. There was no guessing by > the person doing the enrollment. You people need to do a lot of reading > and studying. If a person had two Tribes mixed, they had to choose one > over the other in order to be enrolled. The Rolls were started a long > time ago and certainly are not artifical statements. I'm sorry but these > statements made by Lathel are the most ridiculous I've ever heard. I am > a Cherokee and that is because my Dad was A cHEROKEE and so was my Mom > . . I am able to prove all this with no trouble. Oleta E. Benge KITE > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:19:07 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com> > writes: >> Carla The degree of Indian Blood is an artificial statement based >> on a a series of past documents about how much "Indian blood" a >> person possesses. In earlier times, the blood amount was calculated >> (guessed) by the person conducting the census. There were no >> documents or other records that "proved" the amount of Indian blood >> and individual possessed. For government purposes, it is not the >> specific degree of Indian blood by tribe that can be attributed to a >> person -- it is the total amount of Indian blood. Therefore, like >> your questions asks, the Choctaw blood and the Cherokee blood would >> be added together for Federal Government purposes. However, for >> membership in the tribe, unless the tribal constitution specifically >> allowed for a combination of blood, then the person would have to >> meet the tribe's criteria. That requirement would have nothing to >> do with the Federal government. Lathel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS > -request@rootsweb.com> >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

I agree totally with Lathel's statement. I, to was born Cherokee and not illiterate or unaware of Native American history or the procedures of the Dawes Commission and their interview methods. The statement you make...." You people need to do alot of reading and studying". covers a lot of people. Fortunately we're all entitled to our own opinions. According to one employee of tribal enrollment, Lathel and other researchers and professional historians are correct in this opinion. It really isn't worth debating this issue. I just don't like to be referred to as " You people". And I don't agree with you. James Brown ----- Original Message ----- From: "J W Kite Jr" <obengekite@juno.com> To: <indian-territory-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS] Natural Archives closure > Carla B.The info sent you by Lathel is not true as to Degree of Blood. > Each Cherokee at least knew his degree of blood. There was no guessing by > the person doing the enrollment. You people need to do a lot of reading > and studying. If a person had two Tribes mixed, they had to choose one > over the other in order to be enrolled. The Rolls were started a long > time ago and certainly are not artifical statements. I'm sorry but these > statements made by Lathel are the most ridiculous I've ever heard. I am > a Cherokee and that is because my Dad was A cHEROKEE and so was my Mom > . . I am able to prove all this with no trouble. Oleta E. Benge KITE > On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 19:19:07 -0400 "Lathel Duffield" <Lathel_Duf@msn.com> > writes: >> Carla The degree of Indian Blood is an artificial statement based >> on a a series of past documents about how much "Indian blood" a >> person possesses. In earlier times, the blood amount was calculated >> (guessed) by the person conducting the census. There were no >> documents or other records that "proved" the amount of Indian blood >> and individual possessed. For government purposes, it is not the >> specific degree of Indian blood by tribe that can be attributed to a >> person -- it is the total amount of Indian blood. Therefore, like >> your questions asks, the Choctaw blood and the Cherokee blood would >> be added together for Federal Government purposes. However, for >> membership in the tribe, unless the tribal constitution specifically >> allowed for a combination of blood, then the person would have to >> meet the tribe's criteria. That requirement would have nothing to >> do with the Federal government. Lathel >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS > -request@rootsweb.com> >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> message >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIAN-TERRITORY-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >