Culbreath Family Reunion added to http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgenweb/reunion/reunion.htm have you submitted your Oklahoma family reunion? Marti -------- Original Message -------- From: TWashb1976@aol.com Subject: Culbreath family reunion in May Every Memorial weekend in May the Culbreath Family gathers to celebrate the union of Roy Hieronimus and Nettie Tennessee (Brooks) Culbreath. This takes place in Caddo. It's a big fish fry and a wonderful time.

Due to the hateful tone of private messages I receive everytime I post a message to this list, I have chosed to unsubscribe. Michelle Michelle May wrote: > All of my life, my grandmother told me I was descended from a Cherokee "princess", and > come to find out, I am -- at least as close as you can get to a Cherokee > "princess"........ > > I am descended from Nancy Ward, the last Ghighau or "Most Beloved Woman" of the > Cherokees. She was "royalty" in that her mother was Tame Doe, who was the daughter of > Chief Moytoy. Tame Doe was the sister of Attacullaculla and Oconostota, both chiefs, > who went to visit "The Great White Father" (King of England) in the late 1600s, early > 1700s. Nancy was also related (Niece?) of Old Hop, another famed Cherokee chief. The > "Most Beloved Woman" status was bestowed upon her because of her bravery in battle -- > her husband died during a battle. Nancy (then Nan-ye-hi) was assisting her husband by > chewing his bullets. When he died, she took up his gun, rallied the warriors, and won > the battle. The Ghighau was the head of the women's council and had a seat at the main > council, where her brothers, father, and uncles were the rulers. The Ghighau had > supreme pardoning power as to all captives. Nancy became a staunch advocate for peace. > > My story is living testament that family rumors sometimes do come true! > > Michelle > > Doug Barkley wrote: > > > Jerri, > > Excellent, sometime I'm amazed at the misconception that many people have of Indian > > citizenship. I'm sure that you will agree that there are few individual exceptions > > thare are a few. I have a document that granted a land grant to a fullblood Choctaw > > a parcel of land in Arkansas, as late as the 1840s. This is the only one I am aware > > of after many years of research. I had family who, even though living in Indian > > Territory did not claim their rights! I have not found any reason for it. > > > > As strange as it may seem, I had a lady tell me her ancestor was a " Cherokee Indian > > Princess" from Indiana, and a man told me of a Oklahoma history book he is working > > on with tow professors at OSU that would make everyone mad. The only problem was he > > didn't know the name proposed for Indian Territory, he said it was "Redman". like I > > said some folks have some interesting Ideas. > > > > Thanks for your insight. > > Doug Barkley > > > > Jerri Chasteen wrote: > > > > > Dear List; > > > > > > These questions were sent to me from another source, but I have eliminated the > > > names, the information is more or less "universal", and if the information can > > > help more than one person- then so much the better! > > > > > > jc > > > ~~~ > > > > > > A--- wrote: > > > > > > > Jerri, I honestly thank you for correcting my mistake, for the message > > > > I posted about my grandfather, Joseph. I'm obviously new at this, and > > > > working on family rumor only. I do have a question that you may be > > > > able to answer for me, if you would. How do I find out what happened > > > > to anyone on any of the rolls before or after that year? I have found > > > > a Joseph who was married in 1853 in the same county in MO where my > > > > grandmother was born. Is it possible he was Cherokee? Another Joseph > > > > had a land holding of 161 acres in an adjacent county in AR, acquired in 1896, > > > > > > > near what is called Cherokee Town. I have no clue how to find out if they are > > > > one and the same, or if he was Cherokee. I appreciate any help or pointers > > > > you can give me. > > > > > > An error than many people make, dear-- no big deal. > > > > > > I'll answer the question on Cherokee Town Arkansas first, because that's an easy > > > > > > one. A person who lives in or nearby the town (originally a sub-division) called > > > > > > "Cherokee Town, AR" would have no more reason to claim a relationship to the > > > Cherokee Tribe than a person bowling in a bowling alley "nearby" a > > > group calling themselves "The Cherokee Bowling Team of Hackensack, New Jersey". > > > ALL of the legal Cherokee citizens were removed from Arkansas into Indian > > > Territory by 1830. > > > > > > On the Joseph who is in Missouri in 1851-- contrary to popular belief (and > > > myths), the Indians could live anywhere they wanted to, as long as they paid the > > > > > > same taxes and lived under the same laws as their neighbors. A better question > > > would be -- "would they?", and my answer to that is "It is very unlikely"--- for > > > > > > several reasons. Sorry that this part is so long-- but this is important! > > > > > > If an Indian separated themselves from their tribe, they forfeited all of their > > > rights that they held as tribal members, not only for themselves-- but also for > > > their descendants-- FOREVER. This is not "an Indian thing", or "a U.S. thing"-- > > > > > > it was-- and is a world-wide-thing! The people who moved from Germany and became > > > U.S. citizens forfeited all of their rights and privileges as German citizens in > > > the same way. > > > > > > The Indians who left the tribe to live in the United States (and we were a > > > separate nation) would have to compete on the open market to purchase land, they > > > would be required to pay taxes on this land and to serve in the military at the > > > whim of any local or U.S. official. If the Indian had a degree of blood that > > > would have been obvious (1/4th or more), then that person would have usually > > > been an outcast in the white society that he lived in. Because it may have been > > > an interracial marriage, the spouse would have been an outcast, as well. It is > > > doubtful of the children would have been allowed to attend anything but "a > > > colored school", and then-- who would the children have an opportunity to marry > > > under such a society? > > > > > > The Indians were well aware of their advantages under the many treaties made > > > with the U.S. government. Would you "sell" a very valuable property to "an > > > unrelated > > > person" (the U.S. government) under "a mortgage" (a treaty) which provided for > > > an annual payment forever -- and then -- for no consideration-- choose to give > > > up, not only all of your rights to the payments for said property-- , but also > > > the rights of your heirs, forever? I-don't-think-so! But that's what they did if > > > they moved away from the tribe. > > > > > > On the other hand- if they stayed with the tribe they had a vested right to one > > > equal share in all of the tribal lands and assets, the rights to use any of the > > > land that they needed -- free, as long as they did not infringe upon their > > > neighbor's use. They would own their own improvements to said land, could sell > > > or trade it, but only to another citizen of the same tribe. They did not have to > > > pay taxes, were not subjected to the laws of the states, had free mission > > > schools for the children at the same time that the people in Missouri were > > > having to PAY for their children to go to "subscription schools". They were not > > > obligated to serve in the U.S. military, and they received their equal share of > > > the periodical cash payments under the old treaties, as well as the future > > > payments for the sale of land. They suffered no discrimination socially-- in > > > fact, if a white person wanted to marry a Cherokee, by tribal law the non-Indian > > > would have to obtain sworn statements from five Cherokee citizens as to his good > > > character before a tribal license was issued! > > > > > > As I said-- the Indians knew all of this. Did the non-Indians know it as well?-- > > > > > > In 1896 over 140,000 people from all over the WORLD applied "to be recognized as > > > a tribal member" of the Five Civilized Tribes. 95% of these applications were > > > rejected, most of them because they just were not Indian. In 1906 a payment to > > > the Cherokees was announced. Of the 101,000 people who applied, 60% were > > > rejected, and many of those who were rejected were lying, cheating and bribing > > > "witnesses" to try to be enrolled! I'm one of the VERY few people who can make > > > such a "politically incorrect" statement as that, because I had family on either > > > side of the blanket! Some of my family were eligible on this roll, did apply, > > > and were paid, BUT-- another part of my family (100% "white"- I have them back > > > to the boat) applied from Missouri, were "lying, cheating and bribing witnesses" > > > (the same as their neighbors), and in personal family correspondence between > > > them they were laughing about the stories that they and the lawyers were making > > > up about their mythical Indian ancestors and making all manner of fun of "those > > > dumb Indians". But the Indians weren't quite as "dumb" as they thought and had > > > the last laugh! All of them AND their neighbors, were rejected. :- ) > > > > > > As for your questions- "how do I find out what happened to a person who was > > > listed on the rolls"-- that's not the way to do it AT ALL. First find out what > > > happened to YOUR ancestor -- do your own research, using standard genealogical > > > methods. After you know exactly where your ancestor was living at the time of > > > that roll, then study the tribal laws connected with said enrollment, the > > > requirements and compare it to your ancestor and the U.S. census and records > > > where he lived. > > > > > > Example-- say that your ancestor was "James Johnson". There is "a" James > > > Johnson, 1/4th degree of Indian blood who is listed on the 1902 Dawes Roll. You > > > check the 1900 census of the area where your family information-- the death > > > certificate of your grandfather and the family bible, and they say that your > > > grandfather, the son of James Johnson, was born in 1899 in Greene County MO. You > > > find that the family on the U.S. census with your grandfather and all of his > > > known siblings, living in Springfield Missouri in 1900. Then you check the > > > eligibility laws concerning the Dawes roll and find that "continuous residence > > > with the tribe in Indian Territory from at least 1880 through 1906" was > > > required. But your grandfather and his siblings; the children of your James > > > Johnson, were all born in Missouri between 1885 and 1900. You still WANT to > > > believe that this is your ancestor who is on the Dawes Roll, because you had > > > been so proud of your Indian ancestry and had been told all of your life that > > > great-grandfather Johnson was a "full-blood Cherokee Chief"! But no matter HOW > > > much you want it-- "Wants" do not change history nor the facts! > > > > > > But wait!-- (hang on-- your BRAIN is kicking into gear!)-- if he were really "a > > > > > > full-blood Cherokee", then both of his parents, all of his grandparents (etc), > > > HAD to have been full bloods, too! Where on earth did the anglo name of > > > "Johnson" come from? And-- if he were "a chief"-- what was he doing living in > > > Missouri? Would the President of the United States live in Canada? <sob> " -- > > > but my grandfather wouldn't LIE"! OK-- so can you say the same thing for your > > > grandfather's "drinkin' Uncle Charlie", who may have been the very one who told > > > your grandfather that in the first place? Do you REALLY want all of your > > > research, the expenses of doing it (it isn't cheap) and years of your time to > > > totally depend on 100 year old unverified "hear-say" from an unknown (possibly > > > drunken) source? > > > > > > You then check the 1900 census for Indian Territory-- there IS another James > > > Johnson shown- almost the same age, but from the family bible and his death > > > certificate you know the year and month that your ancestor was born -- and it's > > > different. This man is shown with a totally different family, living in the > > > Cherokee Nation of Indian Territory, and he is shown on the census AS a > > > quarter-blood Indian (a specific question asked in 1900). Rechecking the Dawes > > > enrollment for that James Johnson, shown below his entry are the same children > > > who are shown with the James Johnson on the 1900 Indian Territory census! > > > Guess-which-James-Johnson-is-NOT-your-ancestor! > > > > > > I have said the same thing so many times that I feel like a broken record; > > > genealogy is a matter of some information as to available research material and > > > how to access it, a medium amount of intelligence, and a large amount of common > > > sense! > > > > > > Bottom line--: our ancestors had to take "what was given to them" ("us"), the > > > same > > > way that we must take "what was given to us" ("our ancestors"). If anyone finds > > > a > > > way to get around this, I have a couple of dishonest, lying reprobates in MY > > > family that I would like to talk to you about! :- ) > > > > > > Jerri Chasteen

Hello all: Looking for any information on Isom (Isham/Icman) CAMP (KAMP/KEMP) who resided in Sugar Loaf, Heavener, Choctaw Nation Have found information showing many different wives that lead me to believe there are possibly two different men. But I have copies of family papers with all the above spellings included. My Isom listed as full blood choctaw d. 1898 and was married to Mary Decker during this period 1886/1888. Also, is there a good webpage that shows the individual tribe names and information for Choctaw? I would appreciate any information you may have! Julie* JAMcool3@aol.com

I was always told that my grandmother and great grandmother were Choctaw Indian and one was a princess. I finally found out what my grandmother's maden name was, Daisy Grey/Gray Shimp Phillips. Daisy's mother was Phoebe Grey/Gray. The line stops with her. I have not be able to get anything on her, except that Phoebe married Franklin Schimpf/Schimp. Daisy married Arthur Phillips in 1907 in Ohio. Their son, Bernard FrankPhillips was my grandfather. The above were in Guernsey, Ohio, and they moved later to central Illinois. Does anyone have any info about Daisy, Phoebe and the name Grey/Gray? Thanks Sally Hathaway sjhathaway@aol.com

All of my life, my grandmother told me I was descended from a Cherokee "princess", and come to find out, I am -- at least as close as you can get to a Cherokee "princess"........ I am descended from Nancy Ward, the last Ghighau or "Most Beloved Woman" of the Cherokees. She was "royalty" in that her mother was Tame Doe, who was the daughter of Chief Moytoy. Tame Doe was the sister of Attacullaculla and Oconostota, both chiefs, who went to visit "The Great White Father" (King of England) in the late 1600s, early 1700s. Nancy was also related (Niece?) of Old Hop, another famed Cherokee chief. The "Most Beloved Woman" status was bestowed upon her because of her bravery in battle -- her husband died during a battle. Nancy (then Nan-ye-hi) was assisting her husband by chewing his bullets. When he died, she took up his gun, rallied the warriors, and won the battle. The Ghighau was the head of the women's council and had a seat at the main council, where her brothers, father, and uncles were the rulers. The Ghighau had supreme pardoning power as to all captives. Nancy became a staunch advocate for peace. My story is living testament that family rumors sometimes do come true! Michelle Doug Barkley wrote: > Jerri, > Excellent, sometime I'm amazed at the misconception that many people have of Indian > citizenship. I'm sure that you will agree that there are few individual exceptions > thare are a few. I have a document that granted a land grant to a fullblood Choctaw > a parcel of land in Arkansas, as late as the 1840s. This is the only one I am aware > of after many years of research. I had family who, even though living in Indian > Territory did not claim their rights! I have not found any reason for it. > > As strange as it may seem, I had a lady tell me her ancestor was a " Cherokee Indian > Princess" from Indiana, and a man told me of a Oklahoma history book he is working > on with tow professors at OSU that would make everyone mad. The only problem was he > didn't know the name proposed for Indian Territory, he said it was "Redman". like I > said some folks have some interesting Ideas. > > Thanks for your insight. > Doug Barkley > > Jerri Chasteen wrote: > > > Dear List; > > > > These questions were sent to me from another source, but I have eliminated the > > names, the information is more or less "universal", and if the information can > > help more than one person- then so much the better! > > > > jc > > ~~~ > > > > A--- wrote: > > > > > Jerri, I honestly thank you for correcting my mistake, for the message > > > I posted about my grandfather, Joseph. I'm obviously new at this, and > > > working on family rumor only. I do have a question that you may be > > > able to answer for me, if you would. How do I find out what happened > > > to anyone on any of the rolls before or after that year? I have found > > > a Joseph who was married in 1853 in the same county in MO where my > > > grandmother was born. Is it possible he was Cherokee? Another Joseph > > > had a land holding of 161 acres in an adjacent county in AR, acquired in 1896, > > > > > near what is called Cherokee Town. I have no clue how to find out if they are > > > one and the same, or if he was Cherokee. I appreciate any help or pointers > > > you can give me. > > > > An error than many people make, dear-- no big deal. > > > > I'll answer the question on Cherokee Town Arkansas first, because that's an easy > > > > one. A person who lives in or nearby the town (originally a sub-division) called > > > > "Cherokee Town, AR" would have no more reason to claim a relationship to the > > Cherokee Tribe than a person bowling in a bowling alley "nearby" a > > group calling themselves "The Cherokee Bowling Team of Hackensack, New Jersey". > > ALL of the legal Cherokee citizens were removed from Arkansas into Indian > > Territory by 1830. > > > > On the Joseph who is in Missouri in 1851-- contrary to popular belief (and > > myths), the Indians could live anywhere they wanted to, as long as they paid the > > > > same taxes and lived under the same laws as their neighbors. A better question > > would be -- "would they?", and my answer to that is "It is very unlikely"--- for > > > > several reasons. Sorry that this part is so long-- but this is important! > > > > If an Indian separated themselves from their tribe, they forfeited all of their > > rights that they held as tribal members, not only for themselves-- but also for > > their descendants-- FOREVER. This is not "an Indian thing", or "a U.S. thing"-- > > > > it was-- and is a world-wide-thing! The people who moved from Germany and became > > U.S. citizens forfeited all of their rights and privileges as German citizens in > > the same way. > > > > The Indians who left the tribe to live in the United States (and we were a > > separate nation) would have to compete on the open market to purchase land, they > > would be required to pay taxes on this land and to serve in the military at the > > whim of any local or U.S. official. If the Indian had a degree of blood that > > would have been obvious (1/4th or more), then that person would have usually > > been an outcast in the white society that he lived in. Because it may have been > > an interracial marriage, the spouse would have been an outcast, as well. It is > > doubtful of the children would have been allowed to attend anything but "a > > colored school", and then-- who would the children have an opportunity to marry > > under such a society? > > > > The Indians were well aware of their advantages under the many treaties made > > with the U.S. government. Would you "sell" a very valuable property to "an > > unrelated > > person" (the U.S. government) under "a mortgage" (a treaty) which provided for > > an annual payment forever -- and then -- for no consideration-- choose to give > > up, not only all of your rights to the payments for said property-- , but also > > the rights of your heirs, forever? I-don't-think-so! But that's what they did if > > they moved away from the tribe. > > > > On the other hand- if they stayed with the tribe they had a vested right to one > > equal share in all of the tribal lands and assets, the rights to use any of the > > land that they needed -- free, as long as they did not infringe upon their > > neighbor's use. They would own their own improvements to said land, could sell > > or trade it, but only to another citizen of the same tribe. They did not have to > > pay taxes, were not subjected to the laws of the states, had free mission > > schools for the children at the same time that the people in Missouri were > > having to PAY for their children to go to "subscription schools". They were not > > obligated to serve in the U.S. military, and they received their equal share of > > the periodical cash payments under the old treaties, as well as the future > > payments for the sale of land. They suffered no discrimination socially-- in > > fact, if a white person wanted to marry a Cherokee, by tribal law the non-Indian > > would have to obtain sworn statements from five Cherokee citizens as to his good > > character before a tribal license was issued! > > > > As I said-- the Indians knew all of this. Did the non-Indians know it as well?-- > > > > In 1896 over 140,000 people from all over the WORLD applied "to be recognized as > > a tribal member" of the Five Civilized Tribes. 95% of these applications were > > rejected, most of them because they just were not Indian. In 1906 a payment to > > the Cherokees was announced. Of the 101,000 people who applied, 60% were > > rejected, and many of those who were rejected were lying, cheating and bribing > > "witnesses" to try to be enrolled! I'm one of the VERY few people who can make > > such a "politically incorrect" statement as that, because I had family on either > > side of the blanket! Some of my family were eligible on this roll, did apply, > > and were paid, BUT-- another part of my family (100% "white"- I have them back > > to the boat) applied from Missouri, were "lying, cheating and bribing witnesses" > > (the same as their neighbors), and in personal family correspondence between > > them they were laughing about the stories that they and the lawyers were making > > up about their mythical Indian ancestors and making all manner of fun of "those > > dumb Indians". But the Indians weren't quite as "dumb" as they thought and had > > the last laugh! All of them AND their neighbors, were rejected. :- ) > > > > As for your questions- "how do I find out what happened to a person who was > > listed on the rolls"-- that's not the way to do it AT ALL. First find out what > > happened to YOUR ancestor -- do your own research, using standard genealogical > > methods. After you know exactly where your ancestor was living at the time of > > that roll, then study the tribal laws connected with said enrollment, the > > requirements and compare it to your ancestor and the U.S. census and records > > where he lived. > > > > Example-- say that your ancestor was "James Johnson". There is "a" James > > Johnson, 1/4th degree of Indian blood who is listed on the 1902 Dawes Roll. You > > check the 1900 census of the area where your family information-- the death > > certificate of your grandfather and the family bible, and they say that your > > grandfather, the son of James Johnson, was born in 1899 in Greene County MO. You > > find that the family on the U.S. census with your grandfather and all of his > > known siblings, living in Springfield Missouri in 1900. Then you check the > > eligibility laws concerning the Dawes roll and find that "continuous residence > > with the tribe in Indian Territory from at least 1880 through 1906" was > > required. But your grandfather and his siblings; the children of your James > > Johnson, were all born in Missouri between 1885 and 1900. You still WANT to > > believe that this is your ancestor who is on the Dawes Roll, because you had > > been so proud of your Indian ancestry and had been told all of your life that > > great-grandfather Johnson was a "full-blood Cherokee Chief"! But no matter HOW > > much you want it-- "Wants" do not change history nor the facts! > > > > But wait!-- (hang on-- your BRAIN is kicking into gear!)-- if he were really "a > > > > full-blood Cherokee", then both of his parents, all of his grandparents (etc), > > HAD to have been full bloods, too! Where on earth did the anglo name of > > "Johnson" come from? And-- if he were "a chief"-- what was he doing living in > > Missouri? Would the President of the United States live in Canada? <sob> " -- > > but my grandfather wouldn't LIE"! OK-- so can you say the same thing for your > > grandfather's "drinkin' Uncle Charlie", who may have been the very one who told > > your grandfather that in the first place? Do you REALLY want all of your > > research, the expenses of doing it (it isn't cheap) and years of your time to > > totally depend on 100 year old unverified "hear-say" from an unknown (possibly > > drunken) source? > > > > You then check the 1900 census for Indian Territory-- there IS another James > > Johnson shown- almost the same age, but from the family bible and his death > > certificate you know the year and month that your ancestor was born -- and it's > > different. This man is shown with a totally different family, living in the > > Cherokee Nation of Indian Territory, and he is shown on the census AS a > > quarter-blood Indian (a specific question asked in 1900). Rechecking the Dawes > > enrollment for that James Johnson, shown below his entry are the same children > > who are shown with the James Johnson on the 1900 Indian Territory census! > > Guess-which-James-Johnson-is-NOT-your-ancestor! > > > > I have said the same thing so many times that I feel like a broken record; > > genealogy is a matter of some information as to available research material and > > how to access it, a medium amount of intelligence, and a large amount of common > > sense! > > > > Bottom line--: our ancestors had to take "what was given to them" ("us"), the > > same > > way that we must take "what was given to us" ("our ancestors"). If anyone finds > > a > > way to get around this, I have a couple of dishonest, lying reprobates in MY > > family that I would like to talk to you about! :- ) > > > > Jerri Chasteen

Carol, Any clues where Henry Clay Jones was from? Michelle Carol McCoy wrote: > All my life, my dad talked about his being descended from a Sac and Fox > chief. If he were still living, I think he would have been amused > by my discovery that in actuality, my dad was a *step-descendant* not > of a Sac and Fox chief, but of a very generous and good man named > Henry Clay JONES, a half Sac and Fox who was the interpreter for the > Sac and Fox tribe at Prague, OK. > > My dad didn't have the facts, but his mother, my grandmother, flat out > fabricated a story to hide the truth about her father's birth. She > started researching her genealogy back in the '60's and she told about > her grandmother eloping with a young man named Marshall Field who > was from a wealthy family. Both families disapproved of the marriage > so her brother locked her in her room while the groom's parents whisked > him away. The so-called annullment ended in the birth of my > grgrandfather, and later his mother Sarah PENNY married the half > Sac and Fox Henry Clay JONES who adopted my grgrandfather Edwin Fenton > JONES. I've searched and searched, but I find no records or mention > of a Marshall Field living in Shawnee Co KS. My grandmother, bless > her heart, just didn't like the truth that her father was illegimate. > > Interestingly enough, I discovered a JONES cousin who is a direct > descendant of Henry JONES, and this *cousin's* brother was just > recently accepted into the Sac and Fox tribe. > > Carol McCoy

Michelle asked if I knew where my Henry Clay JONES was from, so I'll repost what I have... I am researching the family of Henry Clay JONES b. 25 Nov 1844 in Tama. His parents were William Washington JONES and Katiqua, daughter of a Fox chief. Wm *Wash* JONES was born in KY and fought in the Black Hawk Wars of 1832. Henry Clay JONES was an interpreter for the Sac and Fox Agency in Prague, OK. He married Sarah Elizabeth PENNY and adopted her son Edwin Fenton __?__ (my grgrandfather). In 1871 another son was born named William Henry JONES who later became a noted anthropologist for the Field Museum and a linguist of Algonquin languages. He was killed by Phillippine headhunters on his 28th birthday in 1909. After Sarah died when William was a baby, Henry JONES married Melissa TYNER and they had several children. Carol McCoy

Barbara- I hunted in those hills in my younger (more agile) days-- when I could still pull a #40 pound test bow and climb trees :- ), and some of the area is still rather remote--. The part that I was in is south and east of Tahlequah. There is a fair sized Game Management Area there, which takes up part of it. There are Cherokees living there (naturally), but you will also see the modern and familiar design of houses built by the Cherokee Housing Authority, so not knowing what era you are talking about, I can't really say if "they still live the same way". But I do know that if I got lost up there, I would be thankful to know enough of the Cherokee language to understand directions given by the local population! The Indian and Pioneer Interviews of Oklahoma (Oklahoma Archives, OK City) should have quite a bit of information on the area, and should be quite interesting. jc > Barbara wrote: Does anyone know any thing about the Cookston Hills some were > near OK/AR Line? <snip>

Doris-- Sugar Loaf was in the Choctaw/Chickasaw area of Indian Territory (see map of the Choctaw Nation at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~itchocta/choc_map.htm). The 1890 census shows that the population of the Chickasaw Nation was more than 89% non-Indian, and the 1885 Choctaw Nation census shows that their population was 66% non-Indian. Since John Chapman married in Lumpkin Co GA, which was over 200 miles from the pre-1830 domain of the Choctaw and Chickasaw Nations (they were removed from MS/AL into I.T. in 1830/32), then I would not expect him to have any connections to those tribes. The nearest tribe to Lumpkin County would be the Cherokees. If he was Cherokee and they remained in the east after the 1838 Trail of Tears (an option that they had under Article #12 of the 1835 Treaty of New Echota), then he and/or his family will be shown on the 1851 Siler and the1852 Chapman rolls. In case you didn't know it, the GA law said that the marriage had to take place in the county of residence of the bride, so that may give you a clue. BUT-- be VERY careful about saying that "I know for a FACT"! The only people who "know for a fact" about an 1828 event are DEAD! "Pictures" mean-- nothing! Because of their lack of makeup, working in the garden or fields before sun-screen was even thought of-- causes most of the pre-1900 photos to be very misleading; in our eyes (today) "everyone looks Indian" in them. All that matters are-- the facts. It would be very difficult for the Crowders or Childers to prove an 1828 relationship to the Cherokee tribe, because I have done some Crowder research (my niece)- and there was no Crowders (or Childers, for that matter-- I just checked) listed on the pre-removal 1835 census of the Cherokees. While the Cherokees are very flattered to be "the 1990's race of choice" in all of the United States (University study says that 60% of the population believes that they have Cherokee ancestry), we do know that many times it's just easier to say "Cherokee" than try to explain where (for example) the Wea or Kickapoo Tribes were from! There were over 500 Indian tribes and bands here when "Columbus got lost"-- and it would be a simple mathematical impossibility for 60% of the U.S. to be descendants of the Cherokee Tribe. Lots of luck in doing your research- just thought I would throw in these comments and I do hope they will help you get on the right track. Jerri Doris wrote- > I have been trying to research my Chapman genealogy. The story is that > Arterberry Chapman was "Indian" and I have always believed this because of > features of our family. I have found Arterberry in Sugar Loaf County in 1895, > but I understand that this is not a true indication that he was Native > American. <snip>

Carol "Old family stories" are fine-- except when they are used as the total basis of genealogical research! Congratulations-- you are now a true genealogist! While your discovery may be a disappointment- I'm sure that you would rather know the truth. So many times this happens and then in each generation the myth escalates to the point that even the "author" would not recognize the story! My great-great grandfather did NOT own "1,700 acres of oil wells in downtown Ft Worth" as my mother went to her grave believing. But through research, I found what he did own, where it really was, and I'm just as proud of him as if he had owned the entire state! Lots of luck to all of us poor people who are simply trying to get-- "the true facts"! jc > All my life, my dad talked about his being descended from a Sac and Fox > chief. If he were still living, I think he would have been amused > by my discovery that in actuality, my dad was a *step-descendant* not > of a Sac and Fox chief, but of a very generous and good man named > Henry Clay JONES, a half Sac and Fox who was the interpreter for the > Sac and Fox tribe at Prague, OK. <snip>

I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about the town of Sasakwa, OK circa 1900-1910? I just recently learned that my grandmother Wynema was born there in 1904 and noticed on the current map it looks to be a small town today! Melinda

Sue Bumerts wrote: > Where would I look to find the census for the Ft. Gibson area around 1880. > Looking for the Harrison BARKER family-listed as Freedman-Cherokee on the > DAWES Rolls. Sue-- There was no "federal census", if that's what you are looking for, because this was not in the United States at that time. What you will find is an 1880 Cherokee Roll and it lists the Cherokee citizens and Freedman (no non-citizens, unless married to a citizen). If you live in this area, the 1880 Cherokee Roll should be available through the Oklahoma Archives, The Ballanger Room at the NSU Library, Tahlequah, and I'm sure the Muskogee Library would have it. If you don't live here, then try the nearest LDS library -- they can order it. Best of luck jc

These questions and answers are very enlightening. I, however, have a different take on this problem. You see, I am trying to find a Tennessee farmer, with light hair and blue eyes, six feet tall, serving as a Private under Stand Watie's command in Company H and K of the First Cherokee Mounted Volunteers. I have been told that mixed bloods and whites (including some Irish) served under Stand Watie's command and also been told that I would not find any whites there. Since I have a first hand account of the former by a Thomas F. Anderson who authored an article in the "Confederate Veteran" magazine in about 1894, I know that whites most likely did serve with part bloods in some of Stand Watie's units. I also know that there was a 2d Lieutenant named Matthew Green, same name as my gggrandfather, in these units as of July 1861, but family legend says he was killed early in the war. I have been told that this is likely to be two different men. However, I cannot believe this because the name Matthew or Mathew is VERY uncommon. While it shows up several times in the 1850 Census, it is still an uncommon name with the surname GREEN at least. Mathew's records do not show whether he was killed or died. This is very disturbing to me because family legend says he was killed early in the war. It seems that I should be finding a death date in his records. The best I can do is that he was listed as deserted for a short time but returned as a private in Co. K until about June of 1863. This certainly is not "early in the war". -- Tim mailto:phwalls@prodigy.net Researching MCCLINTOCK, ARMSTRONG, GREEN, all of Irish descent, especially County Tyrone (MCCLINTOCK, ARMSTRONG) and Co. Meath (Green)

OK...I missed something! Jerri, you were responding, I think, to someone who wanted to know about a Crowder connection to Choctaws around 1828??? I am descended from that connection, Eli Crowder. I will be happy to share what I've got with whomever was interested....but I think I missed that discussion. SO....if you're interested in CROWDER from Choctaws during the early 19th century...please write me back! Tay

Does anyone know any thing about the Cookston Hills some were near OK/AR Line? I remember back years ago I had a friend who was American Indian in Ft. Smith. Her family still lived up in those hills. And at that time they would not let a "White Man" up there. It is also supposed to have been a hide out for outlaws such as Belle Starr & her gang. I have wondered about this for years. Can anyone tell me if there are still American Indians in that area that still live same as the "Old Days." Barbara

Where would I look to find the census for the Ft. Gibson area around 1880. Looking for the Harrison BARKER family-listed as Freedman-Cherokee on the DAWES Rolls. Thank you, Sue Barker-Bumerts Latviabum@msn.com -----Original Message----- From: Indian-Territory-Roots-D-request@rootsweb.com <Indian-Territory-Roots-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: Indian-Territory-Roots-D@rootsweb.com <Indian-Territory-Roots-D@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 12:32 PM Subject: Indian-Territory-Roots-D Digest V99 #58

Hello everyone, Just wanted to let you know I'm experiencing major hard drive problems. I contacted my internet server regarding downloading problems and it seems I need to uninstall Win98, reformat hard drive and reload every program. If you contact me and I don't immediately respond, please allow a day or two to see what is happening with my computer. This is the 3rd time Win98 has caused a major problem with the harddrive. Does anyone have an aspirin? Jo Autrey http://unidial.com/~jautrey/ ALEXANDER,AUTREY,BEASLEY,ENDSLEY,WELBORN,SCARBOROUGH,NORRIS, LYON,GADDIS,SHEPPARD,CHAPMAN, and many others. STATES: NC,SC,AL,GA,LA,TX,OK,MO,KY,TN among others.

All my life, my dad talked about his being descended from a Sac and Fox chief. If he were still living, I think he would have been amused by my discovery that in actuality, my dad was a *step-descendant* not of a Sac and Fox chief, but of a very generous and good man named Henry Clay JONES, a half Sac and Fox who was the interpreter for the Sac and Fox tribe at Prague, OK. My dad didn't have the facts, but his mother, my grandmother, flat out fabricated a story to hide the truth about her father's birth. She started researching her genealogy back in the '60's and she told about her grandmother eloping with a young man named Marshall Field who was from a wealthy family. Both families disapproved of the marriage so her brother locked her in her room while the groom's parents whisked him away. The so-called annullment ended in the birth of my grgrandfather, and later his mother Sarah PENNY married the half Sac and Fox Henry Clay JONES who adopted my grgrandfather Edwin Fenton JONES. I've searched and searched, but I find no records or mention of a Marshall Field living in Shawnee Co KS. My grandmother, bless her heart, just didn't like the truth that her father was illegimate. Interestingly enough, I discovered a JONES cousin who is a direct descendant of Henry JONES, and this *cousin's* brother was just recently accepted into the Sac and Fox tribe. Carol McCoy

Jerri, Thanks so much for answering the questions on the list. Being new to researching, I learn alot just by reading all the questions and answers. I 'm always wondering what I'm missing when questions get answered privately instead on the list, although I guess there are alot of people that don't want a repeat of what they already know! Anyway, thanks! Becky