I have a "stupid" question I am sure. But here it goes...my aunt gave me a picture of my grandfather's father-in-law who was supposed to be Cherokee. Looking at it, has a very full beard..did the American Indian have hair on the face? Also my uncle (same family line) said that his grandfather had American Indian in him, yet he had fair skin, light hair and blue eyes. When I asked my uncle how he could look so white and not Indian, he only asked me, "what is an Indian supposed to look like? Do we all look like our nationalities are supposed to look?" He has a point here, yet most of us are a mixture of more than one nationality, and ggrandfathers father-in-law was supposed to be full Cherokee(with a beard) and in ggrandfather's case (blond hair, blue eyes) at least half. See I told you it was a silly question, but I am curious to what you all have to say about this. It's the face hair that is more confusing to me than what an Indian is supposed to look like in the case of John T. ....I was always under the understanding that the American Indian had a smooth face and very little if any facial hair.... Thanks bob bobette@foxinternet.net

Dan Metivier wrote: > > Good morning all, > > It may have been a combination of reasons. One reason that I have not > heard on the list, but was mentioned by one of my aunts was that they > may have thought they would get better allotment land by being a lesser > degree of Indian. I remember reading somewhere, that during the enrollment, the "less" Indian blood you had, the more control over your land you had. The fullbloods were considered "wards of the government" and as such, had to had a guardian to over see their land. It also said that some fullbloods registered as half in order to evade this. Can't remember where I read this, have read so many books the past year. So don't take it as fact, as I can't back it up with source. Ethel

Good morning all, It may have been a combination of reasons. One reason that I have not heard on the list, but was mentioned by one of my aunts was that they may have thought they would get better allotment land by being a lesser degree of Indian. I didn't think much about it until I came across a book that had determined that Cherokee of an 1/8 degree of blood did end up with better allotments. The exception to this was the hold out full bloods who were enrolled towards the end of the enrollment time. I'm sorry I don't remember the name of the book. Along the same line, my same aunt and I were talking about the census, and how in 1910 our Cherokee side of the family were listed as Indian, and by 1920, some were being listed as White. One reason suggested by my aunt was that looking white, the census taker may have assumed they were white, or may have been shy about asking a white looking person if they were Indian. Just my two cents. Not being there, all this is just speculation. Dan > >I have a question. Why would a woman who married a full blood Chickasaw (on >Dawes Roll) still say she was white if indeed she WAS Indian? I have cousins >who are determined that our great grandmother was full blood Cherokee(like >80% of the US population), but wasn't on the rolls due to pride or whatever. >However, her daughter married a Chickasaw and still listed herself as white. >Their children are on the Dawes roll as 1/2 blood. Thanks, Leona > >

Well there are many who maybe want to be considered part of a tribe, then there is me!! I have proven I am from the Chippewa, Cree, Cheroke and maybe Chinook tribes. But I am also 6 other nationalities<G> But i am proud to say that no matter what my nationality is i am proud of my Heirtage!! Now what does this make me? Dukes mixture or heinz 57??? Happy hunting. Viola.

It could be she is like me, blonde hair, green eyes, fair skinned, and no one believes I am of Indian heritage? My Great Grandfather is on the Dawes Rolls. Is it easier to lie than to be thought of as a liar? Why should you deny your white heritage because you have Indian blood? I am just as proud of my white heritage as I am of my Indian heritage. I'm sure you know marrying a full blood Indian doesn't make your blood more Indian. Just some ideas as to why this lady listed herself as white, hope this helps. Jan

I have a question. Why would a woman who married a full blood Chickasaw (on Dawes Roll) still say she was white if indeed she WAS Indian? I have cousins who are determined that our great grandmother was full blood Cherokee(like 80% of the US population), but wasn't on the rolls due to pride or whatever. However, her daughter married a Chickasaw and still listed herself as white. Their children are on the Dawes roll as 1/2 blood. Thanks, Leona

CENSUS RECORDS SHOW MY G GRANDFATHER, JOHN B. LEWIS, B 3-1833, KY, WIFE, SUSAN NEE RIDENOUR, B 2-1842, MO; SON CHARLIE, B 3-1876, AR; SON ANDREW J., B 3-1869, MO, HIS WIFE SARAH, B 1870, AR; THEIR SON JOHN, B 8-1899, IT RESIDED IN WALKER TOWNSHIP, SOUTH OF WHAT IS NOW STRATFORD, GARVIN COUNTY. REQUEST ANY INFORMATION CONCERNING DESCENDANTS OF ANY OF THE ABOVE.

You could be right. And it worked. What else would stir up folks who are looking for ancestors from Indian Territory. I'm sure he's sitting back smiling at getting us all yacking again :) Not to mention get us talking about how proud we are of our Indian ancestors. Shelley Shelley

I have run into "brick walls" for my grandfather's parents. Joe Lee Parsons married Lou Ida DeHart McQueen (1/2 Cherokee) in McAlester, (IT) in 1902. Is there anyone on this line that might have further information on these two people? Thanks, Carolyn rolyn

Researching the Cornish family who migrated from southern western Arkansas and north west Louisiana. They migrated from Lauderdale Co, AL to Arkansas. I have a hunch from there migrating pattern that they were in touch with the Chickasaw tribe as well as the Choctaw. Many settled in old Cornish about 1870. John H Cornish had a general store and established a post office box for Cornish when it was Indian Territory. He was also, involved in the cattle business and ferrying goods across the Red River at Burneyville. His siblings were Penelope Rebecah OVERSTREET, Watson Reed CORNISH, William Lucas CORNISH, Sallie Middleton THOMPSON, Ida USSERY, Helen GOODE. Included are the surnames of marriages in Arkansas that migrated to Texas and Indian Territory many of them were involved in the cattle business. Most of them spoke Choctaw and appeared to have been involved with members of the Choctaw tribe on a regular basis. This family were descendents of a Choctaw woman named Maglusher and a white man named Moses Foster, Copiah Co, Mississippi. ADAMS, BAIRD, CORNISH, DAVIS, FOSTER, GATLIN, GOODE, HOGG, OSWALT, OVERSTREET, THOMPSON, USSERY, WALDROP, WORMACK

Vivian (Martin) Sternenberg, Your family sounds like it could connect to my line. MARY ANN MARTIN b c 1835 NC (par?) suspect a Samuel? she m. (1st) to An Attorney Mr. LeRoy from Scotland, then she m. (2nd) to Lawrence Decatur GREAVES who became the first elected Sheriff of Coleman Co Tx, she had 3 dtrs by Mr Greaves, being America, Mary Martin, Ellen. Now dtr Mary Martin Greaves m. Mr.James Nabers and Ellen m. Mr. LaCasse. Now there were several MARTIN households located in Coleman & Bastrop Co Tx areas, including a Samuel MARTIN, whom I also seen on the Indian Dawes Rolls in Ok. Now another interesting thing, America Greaves m. James Knoc Paulk & for a short time moved to Paris, Lamar Co Tx where several children were born, including my husband's line William Paulk in 1898. Now this family was there at the same time yours was, interesting? Do any of these names correspond with anything in your lines ? Even half bro or sis?? Would love to keep in touch Mickey at email paulk@ametro.net

I may should have kept lurking, it seems that I listed Lucy Jackson, as a daughter to Calvin and Isabelle Jackson. Lucy is listed as the wife of Davis Jackson. Calvin and Isabelle's daughters were listed as Rosa and Patsy Jackson. I don't know what the relationship is to John and Melvina Carnes Goode. Rosa is listed as a "Ward" on the Census Card of Melvina. Her parents were listed as dead . They were from Jackson. Melvina's parents were listed as John and Lizzie Carnes from Boktukle also, deceased. Billie

Hi, I'm one of the lurkers. Thought I would get my surnames in also. I am looking for information on the siblings and parents of John or J.W.Goode. He lived in IT from the 1870's until he died in 1901. He was married to Melvina Carnes and their children were: James Killingsworth Goode m: Bessie Ola Ellis Virginia (Jenny) Goode m: Osborne Jones David (Dave) Goode m:Vera Cartwright Minnie Goode m:Boyd(?) Tingle Willie F. Goode m: Oma Bonds (My line) There are other surnames mentioned too, Calvin and Isabelle Jackson, with daughters , Lucy and Patsy . Tot Turner, Walter Boyd and Brother. Also a brother to Calvin ,named Davis Jackson.I wrote and got several items from NAIL as Melvina was Choctaw but, was disappointed that it contained no information showing her siblings and does not even state which parent her Indian Blood comes from. Looking forward to hearing from someone out there that has that little tidbit of information that will get my research to moving again. Billie PS. Even though I am a lurker, I love your newsletter and read it diligently.

Hi, I`m posting this for a friend right now; until she gets the "swing" of this List thing. Would like to share info. on Melinda TIGER probably from Okmulga, Ok. and Lemuel Ernest THAMES from Ark, On another line we are interested in the ancestry of Polly(Mary?) Elizabeth MATTHEWS from Shadrack, Missouri and George Ira BRICKER from Terra Houte, Indiana. These people may have been born about 1880`s or 1900(?) I can furnish more info. in future. And ideas or leads appreciated. Sue in Al.

WHO CARES WHAT JIM THINKS! Anyone heard any good Okie jokes lately?

Jim, When I was a little girl I always wanted to be an Indian because all the pictures I ever saw were these beautiful brown skinned, black haired women. In the last several years I have learned some of the Indian beliefs and of their way of life. I now know how badly they were treated and are still being treated by the white man in Washington and elsewhere. As I have learned more about them and their ways, I wish even more than when I was little that I was an Indian (or at least some Indian). Unfortunately at 58 years old I have not found any Indian in my family, even though there are rumors that there were some on both my paternal & maternal sides. Maybe some of us would feel some pride in belonging to a race that was a little smarter than the white man. Obviously you don't feel that pride! Claudia in Oregon ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Guest <jguest@republic.net> To: <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 06, 1999 9:15 PM Subject: Re: Missing mail > Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen wrote: > > > > It's just been very quiet this past week, Charlene. Perhaps your message will > > stir some of the "lurkers" into submitting their information! > > ============== > > Jerri, > > Maybe this is the time to ask a question that has > been on my mind for a long time. Maybe it will > "stir" something up. > > Why in the world do some people want to be kin > to an Indian? Over the years I've seen people > want to get into the DAR or the Mayflower bunch > or some other "status" group and it has turned > me off. > > Same for folks who seem to think there is some > kind of status in being kin to an Indian. How > often do we hear something like, "My grandmother > was supposed to be full/half/quarter (take your > pick) Indian. I even heard one lady "brag" about > some supposed kin of her's that she said was a > "three-feather Cherokee princess", whatever that's > supposed to be. > > My grandmother used to tell us kids that our > grandfather's, grandfather was some famous > Indian chief in Alabama in the early 1800's. > > Because of this story, this was the LAST line > I did when I began doing research. I figured > it was just another one of those "Indian stories". > > As it turned out my grandmother was right, but > does it make me any different because some guy > 180 years ago was an "Indian"? He was no different > from any other of my ancestors. Was he more > "noble" or "braver" than my other ancestors. Not > in my opinion. So what's the big deal with having > an Indian in your "closet". > > Jim >

True story. Can't even remember why I joined this particular mailing list and it was just not that long ago. Jacque ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Grose <pgrose@pacbell.net> To: <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 9:38 PM Subject: Re: Indian Roots > Welp, we've sure beat this to death. Its doubtful that anyone's mind has > been changed one way or the other, so why don't we just move on. > > Paul > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Diane Singleton <tincie@usit.net> > To: Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com > <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 8:39 PM > Subject: Re: Indian Roots > > > |At 03:13 PM 6/7/99 EDT, you wrote: > |>Jim, > |> Your attitude matches that of the type of people that made my > Grandparents > |>ashamed to be "Breeds" > |> If your so down on people who rejoice in our diversity why are you on > this > |>list? > |>Gregg > |> > |>Jim, I am new to this list and am very surprised that there are people > |like you still around in the 90's. What's your point? Are you Native > |American and one of those people who resent "white wannabe's"? I ran upon > |some of those people on another site not long ago. One of those sites who > |ridiculed "twinkies" > |(whites). And I, obviously, left the group in search of another site where > |I could research and learn without having to deal with prejudice and > |ignorance from either side. > |I don't think I have a drop of NA blood in me and I don't have an opinion > |about that one way or the other. I am just researching my (and my > |husband's) heritage because I want to know who our ancestors were...where > |they came from, etc because I love history mainly. Any kind of history. I > |am curious about our ancestors, no matter who or what they were, because > |that makes up our history. I have no control whatsoever over what my > |ancestors did or who they were. Do you? Do you have any control over what > |happened 200 years ago that caused you to be what you are today? It's > |history. Plain and simple. > |My ancestors were Irish, English, Dutch, German, French, and a bunch of > |"anybody's guess" thrown in. > |My husband's ancestors are not so easy to trace. The ONLY reason I look on > |lists like Melungeon & Native American is because I haven't been able to > |get anywhere on the other lists. What makes these lists any different than > |the Irish, English, etc? Why do you pick this particular heritage to > |question people concerning their interest? Sounds to me like you have some > |serious issues that you are trying to transfer to the rest of the people on > |this list. > |I'm sorry that I felt I had to respond to your post, especially being new > |here myself, but I was under the impression that these lists were open to > |anyone who felt the need to research. I really hope the other lists I have > |signed up for don't try to make me feel like I have to explain why I am > |there. > |Diane Yarbro Singleton > | > >

MK, I am almost certain that my lineage is connected in some way to the line on your web page. One close encounter has to do with your #43 Joseph Henry Harrison b.1879 My great-great grandfather was named Joseph Henry Harrison b. 1878 Mulberry, Crawford County, AR. I also believe that the J.V. you have listed from the 1870 census is the same J.V. I am looking for.(Joseph's father). Is there any way to find out other inhabitants from this census? I do know that Joseph was the family baby by far and his siblings were preparing to leave home at the time of his birth. As for the state representative you have listed, I have seen this before and have tried in vain to discover any information about this J.V. Harrison. I do suspect that he may be my J.V. too because this is the only other mention of those initials that I have been able to find in AR during that time period. Was wondering if there was anyone out there who might have access to any AR state legislature history books???? There is one more twist off of your listing. There is also a slim possibility that the J.V. you have listed from South Dakota in 1885 could either by the elusive J.V. or his son. There has been a long standing belief that Joseph was his mother's "love child" with a Native American man. Joseph was the only member of his family who had dark skin and the only sibling that would speak to him was his brother, Robert S., who was documented by the Dawes Roll as having married a Choctaw woman. Joseph told his children that they were part "Black Dutch" which I understand was a common claim amongst Native Americans in the South who wished to escape racial conflicts. I really appreciate the information you sent and I would more than welcome any suggestions anyone might have in regards to following these leads. Thanks, Doug At 03:37 PM 6/8/99 EDT, you wrote: >I am must curious of your John Valentine Harrison. I have one in my >database, the son of Nathan Thomas Harrison and (most likely) Sarah Oglesby >.... see other email in regard to this family >MKHarrison > >These are a few of my notes: >Year Surname Given Name County State Page Township >1850 HARRISON JOHN V. Tuscola MI 194 >Tuscola >1860 HARRISON J. V. Allen KY 250 New >Roe Dis. >1860 HARRISON JOHN V. Franklin GA 608 >Carnesville P.O. >1860 HARRISON JOHN V. Tuscola MI 645 >Tuscola >1870 HARRISON J. V. Crawford AR 292 Vine >Prairie Twp >1885 HARRISON J. V. Spink SD 026 No >Township Listed > >1860 Carroll Co GA Census, Page 191 Wolfes Glade >1294/1300 John Harrison 60 m Farmer > Martha '' 54 f > William '' 14 m > James '' 12 m > Jane '' 10 f > Hugh '' 8 m > Chapman '' 8 m > >----------------------------------------- >Biographical and Historical Memoirs of Western Arkansas >MONTGOMERY COUNTY–LOCATION–BOUNDARY–AREA–DESCRIPTION, RESOURCES AND >PRODUCTIONS– SOIL–STREAMS–FREESTONE AND MINERAL SPRINGS–WATER >POWER–TIMBER–MINERALS–LIVE- STOCK RAISING–STATISTICS–FRUIT-GROWING–THE GRAPE >AND ITS PRODUCT–DIVERSIFIED FARMING–SETTLEMENT–EARLY SETTLERS–SLAVES–PUBLIC >LANDS–FIRST TAX BOOK–PRESENT TAXABLE WEALTH–COUNTY ORGANIZATION– EARLY >RECORDS– COUNTY SEAT–COMMISSIONERS TO LOCATE COUNTY SEAT–MUNICIPAL TOWNSHIP– >COUNTY BOUNDARY LINES–COUNTY BUILDINGS–COUNTY OFFICERS –POLITICAL >STATUS–ELECTION RETURNS–POPULATION– CIRCUIT COURT–FIRST COURT SESSIONS–FIRST >GRAND AND PETIT JURIES – CIVIL WAR PERIOD – TOWNS – SCHOOLS–RELIGIOUS >DENOMINATIONS–ETC. > >Representatives in State Legislature–Granville Whittington, 1846-48; James >Hudson, 1848-50; H. A. Whittington, 1850-52; R. S. McFarlane, 1852-54; W. >Satringfellow, 1854-56; Henry Heffington, 1856-60; D. A. Woolard, 1860-62; C. >G. Hurt, 1862-64; J. C. Priddy, 1864-66; G. K. Robinson, 1866-68; J. V. >Harrison and J. H. Demby, 1868-70; J. F. Lane and J. J. Sumpter, 1870-72; L. >D. Gilbreath, J. J. Sumpter and George G. Latta, 1874-74; H. H. Barton and J. >J. Sumpter, 1874-75; Alfred Jones, 1875-76; William R. Cubage, 1876-78; J. H. >Demby, 1878-80; A. C. King, 1880-82; John A. Watkins, 1882-84; William P. >Birch, 1884-86; N. H. Harley, 1886-88. >

~~~~~~(Oops. Sorry if this gets there twice.)~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi. I've been watching this list forever, but haven't written for at least 6 months or so. I have a few more clues now, so thought I'd post again... I am trying to find the parents of Noah WALL. He was born Sept.15, 1785 in Rowan County, NC. He was married, first to Lucretia FOLSOME, then, after Lucretia's death, to Eunice CLOUGH. She was a missionary to the Choctaw Indians, and moved with them to Oklahoma Indian Territory. They both died in 1842, soon after my g-g-grandfather Samuel Clough WALL was born. He was raised by his older half-brother, Dave. Sam Clough WALL married Ellen JACKSON. Ellen was the widow of Giles THOMPSON, who was the widower of Sam's two (count 'em, TWO) older half-sisters, Charlotte and Sallie. Do these people sound familiar to anyone? I'm especially looking for info on Noah and on Eunice CLOUGH, and Ellen JACKSON, but would appreciate anything anyone can add. I'm fairly new to this, so I hope I'm doing it right... Thanx, Cheri