Sharon, I found this excerpt from an essay on The Old Settlers, at http://members.aol.com/lredtail/oldsettlers.html . Maybe that is where you saw it. "There are many contributing factors to what the degree of blood was recorded as. First being that if they were ½ Cherokee they were not legal able to transact any business without a white guardian appointed over them. Because of this fact a large number of full bloods and those that were ½ Cherokee enrolled as less then half. Another one you will come across is that they are registered as full bloods and you KNOW that they have a white ancestor. In most cases those who were ¾ or more were often classified as full bloods. Another factor is in some cases they did not actually know their degree of blood. If you have looked on the microfilm or received copies of the Dawes enrollment packet you will have probably come across " I guess I am about ¼ Cherokee " or similar remarks in there. This was what the Dawes Commission would use as a basis for Degree of Blood. The last factor is that there were different people calculating the degrees of Blood sometimes not very accurately. It is not unusual to find 1 brother listed as 3/32 and the rest of his siblings listed as 1/16 etc. Very often I have seen a lot of you throw out very valuable information because the blood degree doesn’t match. If you have any suspicions at all GET THE CENSUS CARD." The best example I know of the disparity we often find between siblings' recorded degree of blood comes from the FIELDS family. So far as I have been able to figure out, James Sanford FIELDS was 5/32 Cherokee. His wife, Charlotte (Stover) FIELDS was 1/16 Cherokee. Their children, therefore, were 7/64 Cherokee. Yet, this is how their children's degree of blood is recorded on the Dawes Roll: Moses O. FIELDS 1/16 Nannie L. (Fields) HATFIELD 1/32 Carrie L (Fields) WASHBOURNE 1/4 Laura A. (Fields) DENBO 1/8 Robert W. FIELDS 3/8 Maude F. (Fields) BURTON 1/8 To make it even more ludicrous, Carrie and Nannie were twins! So if you are researching degree of blood for tribal purposes, you need look no further than the Dawes Roll, but don't rely on it for any other degree of blood computation. Jim Granger >Another interesting point I have heard about is that if you claimed 1/2 or >more Blood, you were required to be attached to an "agent" who would conduct >business (supposedly) on your account. You could not buy or sell land etc. >without the assigned "agent" Perhaps Jerri could comment on this. I don't >remember if this is something my Great Grandmother told me or if it's >something I ran across on the Net. >Sharon Holt Byers

I didn't think much about it until I came across a book >> that had determined that Cherokee of an 1/8 degree of blood did end up >> with better allotments. The exception to this was the hold out full bloods >> who were enrolled towards the end of the enrollment time. I'm sorry I >> don't remember the name of the book. OK, I think I remember what book it was. The book is "Divide and conquer : allotment among the Cherokee" by Marcia Odell. I believe she wrote it originally as a master's thesis. The area covered is mostly Rogers Co. Oklahoma. Dan Ooyalugi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(_______)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tammy asked: "Excuse my ignorance, but what does not having to shave very much have to do with being Native American?" Tammy- You have a good point! It has totally N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with genealogy -- which is what this mail list is SUPPOSE to be about, --- and I think we should get back to. List Owner

Brenda S., Here are the GUNTER surnames in my file. Name Spouse Aky Gunter MCCOY, Alexander Araminta Gunter PACK, William Shorey Edward Gunter MCCOY, Elsie Eliza Keys nee Gunter ADAIR, John Alexander George Washington Gunter NAVE, Eliza Sammie Ella Gunter CUNNINGHAM, Andrew Bell I don't have a lot of information about them, but I'm happy to share what I have. Helen GradashY@aol.com

Brenda S., Here are the LOWERY/LOWREY/LOWRY surnames from my file. Helen GradashY@aol.com Name Spouse Aky Lowery BURNS, Authur Archibold Lowery HARRIS, Rachel Deborah Gale Lowery Edward Emmett Lowery Edward Llewelyn Lowery TAYLOR, Ola May Elizabeth Lowery PACK, William Shorey Elizabeth "Eliza" Lowery Elvira Lowery Francis Herbert Lowery PASCOE, Bobby Faye Francis Mitchelle Lowery George"A-Kil-Lih" Lowery BENGE, Lucy James Lowery PIGEON, Ellen Janice Lowery POWELL, John Jerald Jenny "Jane" Lowery TAH-LON-TEE-SKEE Jerry Tommy Lowery STANCELL, Ester Lee Jimmie Marie Lowery LAFFOON, Charles Leon Joann Lowery WARREN, Louis Terry John Lowery SHOREY, Elizabeth Leslie Ann Lowery Lethe Lowery Mary Virgina Lowery Nellie Lowery FAWLING, Edmond Nine Loleatta Lowery SMITH, Granville Warren No-Na Lowery MCCOY, Alexander Renee Denise Lowery Robert Steven Lowery Sallie Lowery Theodore Emmitt Lowery Dollie Eunice Lowrey FIELDS, James George Charles Lowrey NANNIE Jennie Lowrey HUBBARD, John Lydia "Liti" Lowrey HOYT, Dr. Milo Anderson Pierce Lowrey/Lowrey/Lowry NAVE, Mary Henry Lowrey/Lowrey/Lowry PARRIS, Mary Alice B. " Allie" Lowry Anderson Pierce "Una Na Da DesKi" Lowry Archibald Lowry Captoria Lowry BEARD, David Vier Cecilia Marlene Lowry Charles Lowry Charles Lowry REESE, Eleanor " Ellen " Charles Lowry CAMPBELL, Alice Charles Pickens Lowry RIDER, Laura Charles Pickens "Skeet" Lowry, Jr. Dallas Dale Lowry ARCHER, Martha Geneva Denis Doyle Lowry DITTMER, Theresa May Dorris Jean Lowry JACK Emmett Lowry HORNETT, Nannie B. George "Ga Ni Ga" Lowry III BALDRIDGE, Elizabeth Jack Frost Lowry SANDERS, Walcie James "Tlsu DiSda" Lowry MCLEMORE, Elizabeth James Elden Lowry BENIGAR, Elthel Marie James William Lowry Jennie Lowry CHOATE, James Brown Jeter Brown "Coon" Lowry FRAZIER, Vada Lou John Lowry John Lowry John Arnold Lowry Johnie Porter Lowry Juanita Marie Lowry Katy Lowry Loren Edward Lowry Lucy Lowry Lucy Lowry Lydia Lowry Lydia "Liti" Lowry Marjorie June Lowry BOXFORD, Gene Naoma "Oma" Lowry FISHER, James Lawrence Orsinoe Lowry STARR, Charles Reese P. D. Lowry Patricia Ann Lowry Rachel Lowry Return Johnson "Turn" Lowry MEDLEY, Drucilla Rita Sue Lowry Ruschel Bill Lowry CHANCE, Opal May Susan "Susani" Lowry William Lowry

I'm looking for information on two families, both in Texas and Oklahoma around the turn ot the century, I believe. The area of Texas was Wichita Falls, Texas and in Oklahoma, around Lawton. One of the families is the family of Claudius Clinton O'Cleary who later dropped the O, but one or more of his sons took it back later. Claudius Clinton married Minnie Leona Nipp who was supposed to be Cherokee, but the name has never shown up on the rolls. Her father's name was Jeff Nipp who also never showed up on the rolls, but was supposed to be full blood Cherokee. I'm also supposed to be connected to a Native American named Quanah Parker, but I don't know from when or exactly what the connection is supposed to be. I've also heard stories of a Chief Wichita in the family from a long time ago, but again I'm not sure of what the connection might be. If I remember correctly, there was something about a battle on the Wichita River (named after him?) and something about how Wichita Falls got its name. No idea of the veracity of the stories but then if I knew the answers I guess I wouldn't need any help would I? I don't have a lot of information about Claudius but he was my grandfather and I'd sure like to know more about his family and that of Minnie Leona Nipp. The other family is the family of Frank Joseph Hoepfner. Frank is my other grandfather and he married Magdelena (?). Not sure of Magdelena's last name. They came from Odessya, Russia somewhere around the turn of the century. I have a photo of them taken in Racine, Wisconsin and a naturalization certificate for Frank dated 1914. I'm actually looking for ancestors of these people. I have a pretty good record of their descendants although there are a number of holes and a few huge gaps. Any help anyone can supply will be greatly appreciated. I live North of Salt Lake City and I have been to the LDS library and found a large number of Hoepfners, but have no way of knowing whether or not we're connected. Thanks in advance for any help or advice to this novice genealogist, and I mean rank novice.

Another interesting point I have heard about is that if you claimed 1/2 or more Blood, you were required to be attached to an "agent" who would conduct business (supposedly) on your account. You could not buy or sell land etc. without the assigned "agent" Perhaps Jerri could comment on this. I don't remember if this is something my Great Grandmother told me or if it's something I ran across on the Net. Sharon Holt Byers ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Metivier <demetivi@housing.hsg.uci.edu> To: <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 10:57 AM Subject: question of heritage > Good morning all, > > It may have been a combination of reasons. One reason that I have not > heard on the list, but was mentioned by one of my aunts was that they > may have thought they would get better allotment land by being a lesser > degree of Indian. I didn't think much about it until I came across a book > that had determined that Cherokee of an 1/8 degree of blood did end up > with better allotments. The exception to this was the hold out full bloods > who were enrolled towards the end of the enrollment time. I'm sorry I > don't remember the name of the book. > > Along the same line, my same aunt and I were talking about the census, and > how in 1910 our Cherokee side of the family were listed as Indian, and > by 1920, some were being listed as White. One reason suggested by my > aunt was that looking white, the census taker may have assumed they were > white, or may have been shy about asking a white looking person if they > were Indian. Just my two cents. Not being there, all this is just speculation. > > Dan > > > > > >I have a question. Why would a woman who married a full blood Chickasaw (on > >Dawes Roll) still say she was white if indeed she WAS Indian? I have cousins > >who are determined that our great grandmother was full blood Cherokee(like > >80% of the US population), but wasn't on the rolls due to pride or whatever. > >However, her daughter married a Chickasaw and still listed herself as white. > >Their children are on the Dawes roll as 1/2 blood. Thanks, Leona > > > > > >

Excuse my ignorance, but what does not having to shave very much have to do with being Native American? Tammy

I don't know what degree my Indian heritage is yet, but I don't have hair on my arms or legs. My brother's didn't shave till late, one was in his 20's, and I think he still doesn't have to shave more than twice a week and he's now 60. My N/A heritage comes from BRIDGES out of NC/SC. Donna

This was sent by my Virus Alert service- and may be legitimate. You should at least be made aware of it. (IDG) -- A new virus or worm, with the same modus operandi of the Melissa Virus, is currently spreading across the Internet, deleting large numbers of files and altering the Win.ini file when users reboot. It is spread by an e-mail message saying: "Hi [your name] ! I received your email and I shall send you a reply ASAP. Till then, take a look at the attached zipped docs. --- bye." The message comes along with a zip file named Zip_files.exe, which if activated, will show a fake error message to the user while it infects your computer! BOTTOM LINE- Be safe! DON'T OPEN ANY FILES SENT BY ATTACHMENT! I have a new "religion". I wouldn't open an attached file-- even if it was from The POPE!!! jc

JoAnn and List, My grandmother looked very much like photos of elderly Indian ladies. My father is very dark skinned,too, with dark hair and hazel eyes. My grandmother never claimed Indian blood, but she grew up near Seneca, MO and Miami, OK. She told that Zebulon Hart EVANS,her paternal grandfather (b.1844 IL) had been adopted by the Illinois tribe at age 14; however, he died as a result of the Civil War in KS before that tribe was absorbed by the Peoria tribe and before any rolls were established for that tribe(I believe). We may never be able to document this tribal connection, but if someone can help me, I would like to know where to continue looking. Also, my paternal grandfather's line, TURNER, always said they were "Dirty Dutch". They are documented living in MO ~1840, emigrating from TN. Three generations of this family moved to near Afton, IT before 1898. Recently I inquired about Dirty Dutch or Black Dutch on another list and received an avalanche of information! I had never heard the term "Melungeon" before; what a suprise! Talk about being mixed!! AND they are said to pre-date the Mayflower. I found it very fascinating..... If you want to know more about Black Dutch, look it up on any good browser, or my favorite: www.google.com I am researching the following surnames, all ancestors of mine who moved to IT from MO before the turn of the century: TURNER, WELCH, MOXLEY, McCOLLUM, EVANS 'Sorry this became so long winded! Thanks, I do enjoy this list. Bobbie Thanks, I do enjoy this list. Bobbie=20

I live on the Yakama Indian Res. in Washingotn State. And from the Flathead and Yakama tribes the full bloods have very little facial or body hair. Jo Ann Any one have other info? Roberta L. Doman wrote: > > I have a "stupid" question I am sure. But here it goes...my aunt gave me a > picture of my grandfather's father-in-law who was supposed to be Cherokee. > Looking at it, has a very full beard..did the American Indian have hair on > the face? Also my uncle (same family line) said that his grandfather had > American Indian in him, yet he had fair skin, light hair and blue eyes. > When I asked my uncle how he could look so white and not Indian, he only > asked me, "what is an Indian supposed to look like? Do we all look like our > nationalities are supposed to look?" He has a point here, yet most of us are > a mixture of more than one nationality, and ggrandfathers father-in-law was > supposed to be full Cherokee(with a beard) and in ggrandfather's case (blond > hair, blue eyes) at least half. > See I told you it was a silly question, but I am curious to what you all > have to say about this. It's the face hair that is more confusing to me > than what an Indian is supposed to look like in the case of John T. ....I > was always under the understanding that the American Indian had a smooth > face and very little if any facial hair.... > > Thanks > bob > bobette@foxinternet.net

Me again my grandmother looked 100 % indian and was still listed white on the census. Jo Ann Dan Metivier wrote: > > Good morning all, > > It may have been a combination of reasons. One reason that I have not > heard on the list, but was mentioned by one of my aunts was that they > may have thought they would get better allotment land by being a lesser > degree of Indian. I didn't think much about it until I came across a book > that had determined that Cherokee of an 1/8 degree of blood did end up > with better allotments. The exception to this was the hold out full bloods > who were enrolled towards the end of the enrollment time. I'm sorry I > don't remember the name of the book. > > Along the same line, my same aunt and I were talking about the census, and > how in 1910 our Cherokee side of the family were listed as Indian, and > by 1920, some were being listed as White. One reason suggested by my > aunt was that looking white, the census taker may have assumed they were > white, or may have been shy about asking a white looking person if they > were Indian. Just my two cents. Not being there, all this is just speculation. > > Dan > > > > >I have a question. Why would a woman who married a full blood Chickasaw (on > >Dawes Roll) still say she was white if indeed she WAS Indian? I have cousins > >who are determined that our great grandmother was full blood Cherokee(like > >80% of the US population), but wasn't on the rolls due to pride or whatever. > >However, her daughter married a Chickasaw and still listed herself as white. > >Their children are on the Dawes roll as 1/2 blood. Thanks, Leona > > > >

Isn't this where the black Dutch theory comes into play? They were mistreated at Indians so it was better to be white or Black dutch. Is this correct? I am finding the same problem. As far as i can tell my grandmother, amanda R. stanneart md Oliver thornton 1/1/1901. She was at least 1/2 ( but what tribe) and she always put white. Never talked about life before marrying or any relatives. Her family bible starts only with their marriage and their kids. Let me know? thanks, Jo Ann LGut800427@aol.com wrote: > > I have a question. Why would a woman who married a full blood Chickasaw (on > Dawes Roll) still say she was white if indeed she WAS Indian? I have cousins > who are determined that our great grandmother was full blood Cherokee(like > 80% of the US population), but wasn't on the rolls due to pride or whatever. > However, her daughter married a Chickasaw and still listed herself as white. > Their children are on the Dawes roll as 1/2 blood. Thanks, Leona

Hi to all, I am new to genealogy. My name is Karen Denise (Adamson) Grimes, b 10-21-1957 in Lou., KY. I am trying to find info on my GG Grandmother, Adalade Isophenia (Jenkins) HUMPHREY, b 09-20-1828, according to my sources in OK. I have no d date. She married my GG Grandfather, Anderson Gatewood HUMPHREY 04-30-1846, in I believe, Shelby Co., KY. They had several children, the youngest of which was my G Grandfather, David L. HUMPHREY. The story handed down in my family has been that Adalade was American Indian, possibly Cherokee (?), and was taken off the Trail of Tears. I do not know how much of that story is true, but have a couple of pictures of Adalade, and would very much like to find the truth about her and my heritage. It is also my belief I have American Indian on my fathers side of the family. As I indicated, I am new to this and would greatly appreciate any info or help in knowing where to go for info. Thanks to all. Looking forward to your responses, Karen

I want to thank you all who have responded to my questions concerning blue eyed, bearded American Indians. I got a lot of response to my question and I appreciated everyone of them. Thank you very much for the time you gave me..... bob

Is anyone else having a problem with this Digest #? I've tried to delete it and it won't delete and now it has repeated itself.... virus maybe? Deborah (Bell) Cox randd@worldnet.att.net (home) dbell15@go.com (alternate home) http://www.earthimpressions.com (business) ICQ 4332476

Hi Dan and list One of the reason's in my family for claiming white and denying indian was because they could.... Receive the land and still cling to what they considered was the prestige of being "white". My family have been affiliated with the Chickasaw Nation since prior to 1836 and the Cherokee Nation before that. My ggggrandfather was a Cherokee Trader named John R. Allen, He plied a schooner from New Orleans to the Choctaw and other Nations along the Mississippi at least through 1818 and probably later. He was married into the Chickasaw Nation to a woman named Catherine who was probably a daughter of Thomas Love and one of his fullblood wives. Their daughter Mary married a white man named Harvey Bacon in July 23, 1831. He was then Adopted into the Chickasaw Nation ( Matriarch society ). When the Treaty of Potontoc was made in 1832 Harvey was given land in Miss. as the husband of a citizen And a citizen in his own right because of his adoption. They sold that land and in the late years of the removal went to IT. Harvey and one of his son's was a Chickasaw judge and all 3 of his son's served in Stan Watie's Cherokee Reg. during the Civil War. That background history was given to explain the crazy Dawes Comm. enrollment of this family. Some enrolled as Blood Chickasaw others as Adopted White.... You could get the land and still claim to be white. The discrimination than was terrible. Some less than truthful members of my family made application as adopted white and are so recorded while others claim Chickasaw blood through their ancestor Mary Allen. One of the most enlightening passages I ever read concerning this family was a Dawes interview with Mariah a freeman of this family who had come with the family from Ms. during the removal. When ask if this family (Bacon) was Indian she said "yes". The examiner then said "Well, why do they say they are not Indian?". She said "Well, Maybe they're not but their mother was!" (beg) I love this lady, she gave the most entertaining interview I ever read mostly to the consternation of the interviewer. I am not saying that everyone who claimed Not to be indian were but some did for whatever reason. The Territory was flooded with people pouring into the Indian and the Okla. Territory during the turn of the century and the overwhelming reason was LAND. Many were of indian descent and were late comers as Jeri's books so well document. Others were not and were trying to get land they did not deserve. In Okla. Territory the whites resented the land allotments in the IT and this discrimination rubbed off on many. Well, I seem to be going on a bit long sorry. Linda Davis

I received this from another rootsweb list. It was written by Betty Stokes, and I felt it was most helpful. I thought ya'll would like to see it,too. ============================================================ EVIDENCE FOR PROOF Evidence is the means of proving or disproving a fact. There are five types of evidence: 1. PRIMARY: Primary evidence is that from a record when the record itself is the cause or result of the action or fact to be proved. Examples are: Vital records, Wills, Church Records, Tombstones etc., This is the best evidence. 2. COLLATERAL: Collateral evidence is when it is collateral to the purpose of the records but never the less an integral part of the record: Example: If a man speaks of his daughter by her married name, it signifies a marriage when no marriage record can be found. 3. SECONDARY: Evidence consists of statements made by persons of facts they know of their own knowledge: Examples: Oaths, Old Letters, Depositions. 4. CIRCUMSTANTIAL: If two or more facts are so related, that if one which can be proved by a higher type of evidence is true. When the other is necessarily, true. Example: Record shows a daughter of a man and later he marries someone, it shows he was married before and had at least one daughter. 5. REPORTED: Rumor, Hearsay, County Histories, and Many Biographies. These are the least trustworthy but good for clues. SOURCES OF GENEALOGICAL MATERIALS 1. PRIVATE: Family Bibles, Ledgers, Diaries, Photograph Albums, Samplers, Old Silver, Fly Leaves of old Books, Old Letters, Old Wills, Diplomas, Citations, Discharge Papers, School Records, Insurance Claims, Baby Books, Grandmother Bracelets, Etc. 2. PUBLIC: Census, Pension, Military, Land Tax, Deeds, Laws, Church Records, Court, Probate, Vital Records, Mortality, Immigration, Naturalization, Obituary Notices, Cemetery Records and Tombstones, Register of Voters, Maps, and Plat Books. City Directories and Telephone Books. 3. COMPILED: Printed Genealogies, County & Local Histories, Periodicals, Compiled Tax Lists, Cemetery, Etc., Newspapers - Articles, Brand Books. ============================================================

I am 1/8 Cherokee and I can only comment on the male members of my own family. My brothers do not have very much facial hair. If they grow a beard it is mustache and chin only. Pictures of male relatives on my Cherokee side show no beards. My oldest brother had blond hair when he was born. It turned darker as he aged. I have one sister that has jet black hair. The rest of us are somewhere in between. Eye color ranges from Green, to Brown, and to an almost Black. A round face is very prevalent in my family. When I look at old pictures of Cherokees I see that same roundness in the face. - Chris -----Original Message----- From: Roberta L. Doman [mailto:bobette@foxinternet.net] Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 9:31 AM To: Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: question of heritage I have a "stupid" question I am sure. But here it goes...my aunt gave me a picture of my grandfather's father-in-law who was supposed to be Cherokee. Looking at it, has a very full beard..did the American Indian have hair on the face? Also my uncle (same family line) said that his grandfather had American Indian in him, yet he had fair skin, light hair and blue eyes. When I asked my uncle how he could look so white and not Indian, he only asked me, "what is an Indian supposed to look like? Do we all look like our nationalities are supposed to look?" He has a point here, yet most of us are a mixture of more than one nationality, and ggrandfathers father-in-law was supposed to be full Cherokee(with a beard) and in ggrandfather's case (blond hair, blue eyes) at least half. See I told you it was a silly question, but I am curious to what you all have to say about this. It's the face hair that is more confusing to me than what an Indian is supposed to look like in the case of John T. ....I was always under the understanding that the American Indian had a smooth face and very little if any facial hair.... Thanks bob bobette@foxinternet.net