This "grass widow" thing may be over done by now.....but, found this, that might be interesting to someone?! Note the date of this definition! Clay ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: THE DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE BY E. COBHAM BREWER FROM THE NEW AND ENLARGED EDITION OF 1894 Grass Widow was anciently an unmarried woman who has had a child, but now the word is used for a wife temporarily parted from her husband. The word means a grace widow, a widow by courtesy. (In French, veuve de grace; in Latin, viduca de gratia; a woman divorced or separated from her husband by a dispensation of the Pope, and not by death; hence, a woman temporally separated from her husband.) "Grace-widow (`grass-widow') is a term for one who becomes a widow by grace or favour, not of necessity, as by death. The term originated in the earlier ages of European civilisation, when divorces were granted [only] by authority of the Catholic Church." - Indianopolis News (1876). The subjoined explanation of the term may be added in a book of "Phrase and Fable." During the gold mania in California a man would not unfrequently put his wife and children to board with some family while he went to the "diggins." This he called "putting his wife to grass," as we put a horse to grass when not wanted or unfit for work.

Robert Elliott wrote: > according to the Webster Dictionary 1913 which you can few via the net at humanities.uchicago.edu Thanks Robert for the Dictionary lead....but that much of the address makes for quite a "Links-Scavanger-Hunt" I must say!! For anyone interested in viewing and using this Dictionary, try the following direct link! Clay http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html

Thanks Jerri, I will contact Alma Hutchins about her publication and thanks for answering about the Dawes numbers too.Maybe this will get my research on these families going again. Billie

I recently ordered and received some items from NAIL on the Dawes Enrollment and I noticed that each family members number was in sequence ,such as the Head of the family had the number of 10881 and then the oldest child had the number 10882 and the next child had the number 10883 and so on . Does that mean that the family with the numbers preceeding those numbers were related to that family? Does anyone know how they choose these numbers. Thanks , Billie

Hi , Where would a person find the Marriages extracted from the Dawes enrollment applications? Thanks, Billie

and then there was "widow of the sod" which meant a lady whose husband was deceased. becky m i bid you peace @~~~~~<~~~~~~<~~~~~~~~

according to the Webster Dictionary 1913 which you can few via the net at humanities.uchicago.edu Widow bewitched, a woman separated from her husband-A grass widow (this is a colloq) The word grass metaphorcially used for what is transitory y

I agree! ! This list has had more nonsense on it in the last couple of weeks that I can believe. Jan GCS2PKJ@aol.com wrote: > Then I HEREBY UNSUBSCRIBE TO THIS LIST!! By the way, all the other > list > owners of the lists I subscribe to, have names. > > In a message dated 6/11/99 9:48:11 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > jerri@cherokee.net writes: > > << ENOUGH ON THIS SUBJECT! > > Medical, genetics and discussions of other fairy tales should be done > on > their proper mail lists-- and this isn't one of them! > > In case some of you have forgotten, this is a > g-e-n-e-a-l-o-g-i-c-a-l mail > list. > > >>

>, . In this particular case the federal courthouse >was located in McAlester. There were also federal courthouses in Muskogee, Vinita >and several other places in Indian Territory. > >Another place to look for "Indian Territory marriages" is in the county seats of >adjacent states. Often it was easier/cheaper to climb on a train, go to Dennison, >Wichita Falls or Ft Smith, get married and take the next train back than it would >be to go to the Federal courthouses in their district. Jerri, Would you by chance know where these records are presently housed? June Terry Johnson Oklahoma aggran@chickasaw.com

The listowner has spoken and that should be the end of it -- but apparently some of our members still don't understand why this subject is outside the scope of our list. So I'm asking you to turn it around and look at the whole issue from the other side. Just imagine for a few moments that our list covers genealogy of Europe. [If you question the analogy, a quick look at a world map will confirm that the area from which the natives of North America were relocated to Indian Territory was larger than the entire continent of Europe.] Now imagine that I ask a question like "is my family's tendency toward prematurely grey hair an indication of European blood?" Members whose families bear that trait would probably say 'yes!' But I'd also hear a resounding 'no!' from those whose blond hair makes it very difficult to notice the onset of white and the ensuing discussion as to whether Europeans have blond, red, brown, or black hair and at what age they start to grey could prove endless. Doesn't that strike you as a waste of time and resources? That's how the current discussion strikes those of us who are aware of the history and diversity of the many Indian Nations. If you are interested in physiology, by all means pursue it elsewhere -- but please respect the Listowner's philosophy and refrain from cluttering up the Indian Territory list with it. That said.... Personally, I'm very interested in genetics and welcome OFF-list correspondence on the subject. Sharon McAllister 73372.1745@compuserve.com

ease up--I think the response proves the majority thinks physical traits are important.. now let's move on. Jo Ann Lorna Rebecca Maxwell wrote: > > ok...so what is the objection to posting physical traits? > > i bid you peace > > @~~~~~<~~~~~~<~~~~~~~~

Indian Territory was a geographical location in what is now Oklahoma. People of several different races lived there. I believe there are several lists that are devoted to different races, tribes and maybe even their physical characteristics. I would like to use this list to find my ancestors (both red and white) who lived in this geographical area. I don't need racial characteristics to do so. -- Just my opinion. > Lorna Rebecca Maxwell wrote: > > > > ok...so what is the objection to posting physical traits? > > > > i bid you peace > > > > @~~~~~<~~~~~~<~~~~~~~~

i fully agree with you. jo ann-- I am trying to find my indian heritage. il Knox wrote: > > OK.. I have kept quiet so far, but finally felt I had to step up and be > counted! > > There were a few uncalled for remarks a few days ago which caused some of > those having Native American ancestry to take offense. That was truly > unfortunate. Everyone should try to be sensitive to the feelings of others > no matter their background. > > This had an overall poisitive effect, IMHO. Discussions of Native American > genealogy has more than tripled! > > But I cannot comprehend <<at all>> how there are those who have joined a > list aimed at genealogy and that is called "Indian Territory" can think > discussions of native american traits that might appear in one's family is > <<not>> connected to genealogy and further is <<not>> related to "Indian > Territory". > > If this kind of discussion is truly not related to trying to find one's > ancestors who might have been native americans in Indian Territory... then > I simply don't know what "Indian Territory" genealogy is!! > > I don't mean to step on any specific person's toes.. Just expressing my > absolute astonishment at some of the opinions I am hearing!! > > .......................... > Phil > (pknox@earthlink.net) > > For Ruch/Rugh Family Genealogy, great links, & just plain fun... visit: > http://home.earthlink.net/~pknox/

My heavens! I hadn't heard that term used in a long time! Back in the '40's and '50's, when many people regarded divorce as a disgrace of sorts and spoke of it in hushed tones, around the children they often used the term "grass widow." Now that divorce has become so commonplace, the term has become more or less obsolete. I would guess, being a retired English teacher, that the "grass" reference is to the fact that one or the other, or both, of the marriage partners found the grass greener on the other side of the fence! It could also, I suppose, easily be used to describe desertion of a spouse for the same reason.

Possibly a payment roll of those who were employed by the government to furnish services to the tribes. jc ~~ Lldurham@aol.com wrote: > In a letter written August 1, 1892 to Nelson Case, president of the Labette > County KS historical society, Dr. George Lisle said: > > <<....thence he (a fellow named Wilfred Cox) had come down to Osage Mission > with some stockmen, and from there in one way and other got down to Ambrose > McGhee's place near where Chetopa now stands. This was sometime probably in > 1847 or 48. Ambrose McGhee, during the period from 1855 to 61 [Ambrose's son, > Thomas Jefferson McGhee, says Ambrose died 1860], was registered on the > Government Rolls as Blacksmith for the Quapaws, and at times for the Osages. > He also owned a farm a mile or so southeast of the present site of Chetopa > where the old Shawnee cattle trail joined the Texas cattle trail after it > crossed the Neosho at Rocky Ford on the present State line.>> > > Ambrose McGhee was a white man married to Judith Cochran, a full blood > Cherokee. Does anyone have any idea what "Government Rolls" Dr. Lisle is > talking about here? Thanking you in advance!

Marti wrote: "What is this about McAlester IT being the only place whites could marry? I couldn't find the message you apparently wrote her - if you still have it, send it - working on an explanation page for where they can hunt for pre-statehood marriage records." ~~ `Twernt exactly what I said-- but it was close! The Indian tribes would not (normally) issue tribal marriage licenses to non-Indians. The non-Indians (usually) had to go to the nearest U.S. courthouse, because they were U.S. citizens. In this particular case the federal courthouse was located in McAlester. There were also federal courthouses in Muskogee, Vinita and several other places in Indian Territory. Another place to look for "Indian Territory marriages" is in the county seats of adjacent states. Often it was easier/cheaper to climb on a train, go to Dennison, Wichita Falls or Ft Smith, get married and take the next train back than it would be to go to the Federal courthouses in their district. jc

not sure about mcalester, but all my grandparents were married in OT or IT , I think mcalester is the federal district for marrage lisences in IT and that Ardmore is the federal district for OT, I have my OT marrage records from Purcell, OT and they were at ardmore cout house. If you will call them they will tell you what records they have reb

I have also heard of "Grass Widow" being used when the husband was gone temporarily for work or other reasons. George At 05:57 PM 6/12/99 -0500, you wrote: >Cheryl, my best understanding of "Grass Widow" is someone that is >divorced - I suppose it could mean someone whose husband left them. You >are right, this is a very old term. B.J. (Massey) Clay >

Cheryl, my best understanding of "Grass Widow" is someone that is divorced - I suppose it could mean someone whose husband left them. You are right, this is a very old term. B.J. (Massey) Clay

Webster's Dictionary: grass widow - (a) a discarded mistress (b) a woman who had had an illegitimate child (c) a woman divorced or separated from her husband (d) a woman whose husband is temporarily away from her.