Jerri, This is a great tip. My family has been searching for years for a marriage record of my Irish gggrandparents who married about 1856 someplace between New Mexico and the eastern states, specifically Cincinnati or Philadelphia. Since my Irish born gggrandfather, Matthew GREEN, b. 1825 County Meath, Ire., served in the Army (enlisted Albany NY 23 Mar 1851) in New Mexico Territory as a career soldier stationed at Fort Fillmore, NM Terr., I felt that he met his wife and married her someplace such as these "white" places that Jerri brought up. My ggrandmother, Jenny GREEN, b. 31 Aug 1859, said she was born out West someplace and thought it was Oklahoma, *BUT* it was actually New Mexico Territory. She thought she was born in Oklahoma because she *did* live in or near Ft. Smith, Arkansas during the early years of the Civil War, between mid 1861 and about 1864 or 1865. Her mother, Jane ARMSTRONG, was b. 1832 Ireland. Her father Matthew GREEN was a 2d Lt. serving under Stand Watie's 1st Cherokee Mounted Volunteers, Company H (1st organization) and Company K (2nd organization). My subscription to this list has brought some rewards from time to time and I hope this is one of those things that lead me to find the marriage records for the 1856 marriage. Tim (Louisville, KY) >>>> Subject: Re: Indian Territory marriages Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:52:25 -0500 From: "Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen" <jerri@cherokee.net> To: Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com Marti wrote: "What is this about McAlester IT being the only place whites could marry? I couldn't find the message you apparently wrote her - if you still have it, send it - working on an explanation page for where they can hunt for pre-statehood marriage records." ~~ `Twernt exactly what I said-- but it was close! The Indian tribes would not (normally) issue tribal marriage licenses to non-Indians. The non-Indians (usually) had to go to the nearest U.S. courthouse, because they were U.S. citizens. In this particular case the federal courthouse was located in McAlester. There were also federal courthouses in Muskogee, Vinita and several other places in Indian Territory. Another place to look for "Indian Territory marriages" is in the county seats of adjacent states. Often it was easier/cheaper to climb on a train, go to Dennison, Wichita Falls or Ft Smith, get married and take the next train back than it would be to go to the Federal courthouses in their district. jc ______________________________

There are some bride and groom listings by Mary Turner Kinard "Chickasaw Nation Marriages Ardmore Courthouse" 1895-1907. The Ardmore Public Library has the book on the Brides but the book on the Grooms apparently grew legs and walked off. But the Carter County Museum has a copy of both. If you find the ones you are looking for the Library has them on film and probably could make copies for you. The information in the bride book would read similar to this: Groom Age Bride Age Date Place Vol-pg Horn, Abbie 25 Sander, Ella 18 24 Dec 1905 Eastman I-566 Title sheet on the INDEX Books Roll# A Apr 1895-Mar1896 469 B Mar 1896-Mar 1897 469 & 470 C Mar 1897-Dec 1898 470 D Dec 1898-Jun 1900 471 E June 1900-Sep 1901 471 F Sep 1901-Nov 1902 472 G Nov 1902-Dec 1903 472-& 473 H Dec 1903-Jan 1905 473 I Nov 1905-Dec 1905 474 J Dec 1905-Dec 1906 474 I 1907 (OK Statehood) This area covers counties of McClain, Garvin, Carter, Stephens, Grady, Jefferson, Love, Murray, Pontotoc, Johnston, & Marshall. For everyones information to the Greater Southwest Historical Museum (I called it the Carter Co. Museum above) is having a PICKENS COUNTY, I.T. SWAP MEET on July 17, 1999 startin at 10:00 am until 4:00pm. There is a registration fee for those attending but I think you might be able to send in your family papers and who you are researching and they would include it and some of your family might find you. Hope this helps, Tommie -----Original Message----- From: Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen <jerri@cherokee.net> To: Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 6:38 PM Subject: Re: IT Marriages >Jean asked: >"If a book listed the marriage of a couple in the late 1800's in Pickens >County, where would that be now"? > >Pickens County was the largest of the four "counties" of the Chickasaw >Nation. The area that was Pickens includes at least parts of the present >day Grady, Stephens, Jefferson, Garvin, Carter, Murray, Johnston, and >Marshall Counties- and all of Love County. See the map at >http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgenweb/maps/okmap.htm . > >jc > >

These are some sites that I have really enjoyed and hope others will. http://www.odl.state.ok.us/oar/arcgene.htm http://www.isd.net/mboucher/choctaw/ctowns.htm http://members.clnk.com/spirolib/skullyvi.htm http://www.isd.net/mboucher/choctaw/ctimber.htm http://www-lib.ou.edu/depts/west/namr.htm Marlene

Jean asked: "If a book listed the marriage of a couple in the late 1800's in Pickens County, where would that be now"? Pickens County was the largest of the four "counties" of the Chickasaw Nation. The area that was Pickens includes at least parts of the present day Grady, Stephens, Jefferson, Garvin, Carter, Murray, Johnston, and Marshall Counties- and all of Love County. See the map at http://www.rootsweb.com/~okgenweb/maps/okmap.htm . jc

Willora said: "My grandmother was Indian and is on the Dawes Roll. She married a white man. Did they have to go to the nearest Federal Court house to get married because one was white or was this only when both persons were white?" Only if both were white. Most of the county courthouses were already in place and issuing licenses by that date, because just two months after their marriage, Oklahoma became a state. Many of the "rules" were being broken by then. They may have gone to Jay, Siloam Springs or even to Vinita. jc

If a book listed the marriage of a couple in the late 1800's in Pickens County, where would that be now? The book did not give the name of the city where they were married. Jean Kepler

My grandparents got married a lttle before statehood for OK. They lived in so. Goingsnake now Delaware Co. near Flint Ok. Their marriage date was Aug. 30, 1907. My grandmother was Indian and is on the Daws Roll. She married a white man. Did they have to go to the nearist Federal Court house to get married because one was white or was this only when both persons were white? I have never been able to find their marriage record. My mother says that they got married at Jay OK. Also that ran away together during a picnic while everyone was busy visiting and so no one would notice that they were gone. They were both 17 at the time. They must have lied about their ages. My mother might be nistaken about where they got married. Do I look in Indian records or could thay have gotten married at Silom Springs AR. Silom Springs was not too far away. Can anyone help. Thanks, Glee Glee

-----Original Message----- From: Melva Best <melvab@eufaula.lib.ok.us> To: Indian.-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com <Indian.-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 4:27 PM Subject: Re: Indian Territory marriages > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen <jerri@cherokee.net> >To: Melva Best <melvab@eufaula.lib.ok.us> >Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 4:12 PM >Subject: Re: Indian Territory marriages > > >>Melva- >>This is good information. Please post it to the list! >> >>jc >> >>Melva Best wrote: >> >>> A number of the marriage books between 1890 and 1907 are at the Muskogee >>> courthouse, Court Clerk's office. You could check the Muskogee Library >web >>> site to see if they have a copy of the information. I believe those are >for >>> Cherokee Nation and Creek Nation. The Geneological Society in McAlester >has >>> some on microfilm. I was told by a volunteer there that the original >books >>> for their area had been sent to the Historical museum in OKC. The >Poteau >>> courthouse also has some pre-statehood marriage books. Both Poteau and >>> McAlester were in Choctaw Nation. I believe the Geneological Society in >>> Poteau has copied the information from their marriage books and have it >for >>> sale. I have a paper somewhere telling where all the marriage books are >>> located but I have so many papers I don't know where to look for it. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen <jerri@cherokee.net> >>> To: Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com >>> <Indian-Territory-Roots-L@rootsweb.com> >>> Date: Sunday, June 13, 1999 3:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: Indian Territory marriages >>> >>> >June asked >>> >"Would you by chance know where these <marriage> records are presently >>> >housed?". >>> >~~~ >>> >No-- I had heard some from the Muskogee courthouse "disappeared" a few >>> years >>> >ago. I would check with the Oklahoma Historical Society, but I haven't >>> found >>> >them in any one place or publication. I search high and low for Indian >>> >Territory records such as this, and while I don't have time to do >lookups >>> in a >>> >specific area, many times I do use them to answer queries on this mail >>> list. >>> > >>> >Some of the marriages have been extracted, compiled and published, such >as >>> >those from the Vinita Courthouse and those extracted from the Dawes >>> enrollment >>> >applications. Just about a year ago the earliest records used to prepare >>> the >>> >birth and death certificates of Delaware County were published, which >gives >>> the >>> >maiden name of the mother. Early Ottawa County School records have been >>> >published. I have even found some excellent Indian Territory records at >the >>> >Clayton Library in Houston Texas, including some pre statehood birth >>> records >>> >for Sequoyah County. With so many computers in use, I think more and >more >>> >records of I.T. will be published in the near future. >>> > >>> >None of these are on-line that I know of, in case that is the next >>> question. >>> > >>> > >>> >Jerri C. >>> > >>> > > > >

Marlene Clark wrote: "This is a good example of why mail lists are good. I live near Houston, TX and the Clayton Library which is suppose to be one of the best in the country. I have gone there many times and yet never thought of checking there for OK Indian information <snip>." ~~~ Marlene- I try to go to Clayton Library at Houston about twice a year, just to see what else is there! Would you believe-- I have YET to make it into the house next door where the family histories are housed. I'm too busy trying to break down <sob> MY Texas "brick wall". jc

I found my grandparents in a book called "EARLY MARRIAGES OF KeFlore co" On the marriage license it states it was I.T.

Jerri, This is a good example of why mail lists are good. I live near Houston, TX and the Clayton Library which is suppose to be one of the best in the country. I have gone there many times and yet never thought of checking there for OK Indian information. I made three trips to OK instead and still did not find all the information I wanted. I must say though that the people at the Western History Museum, Monet Hall at OU could not have been more helpful. When they found the names I was researching, they kept stacking books on the table open to the pages that I would want. The WPA Works and THE CHRONICLES OF OKLAHOMA were great. Marlene

Hi Jerri & List Just a suggestion for those who had family living near the Texas/Ok border, My family from what is now Bryan County at least twice went to Paris TX to married, My Greatgrandfather Sam Bacon a mixblood Chickasaw married his 2nd and 3rd wives one of which was white there. The last had registered as a Mississippi Choctaw before she married. It's worth a try if you haven't found them in the actual Territory. Linda Davis "Jerri (Rogers) Chasteen" wrote: > June asked > "Would you by chance know where these <marriage> records are presently > housed?". > ~~~ > No-- I had heard some from the Muskogee courthouse "disappeared" a few years > ago. I would check with the Oklahoma Historical Society, but I haven't found > them in any one place or publication. I search high and low for Indian > Territory records such as this, and while I don't have time to do lookups in a > specific area, many times I do use them to answer queries on this mail list. > > Some of the marriages have been extracted, compiled and published, such as > those from the Vinita Courthouse and those extracted from the Dawes enrollment > applications. Just about a year ago the earliest records used to prepare the > birth and death certificates of Delaware County were published, which gives the > maiden name of the mother. Early Ottawa County School records have been > published. I have even found some excellent Indian Territory records at the > Clayton Library in Houston Texas, including some pre statehood birth records > for Sequoyah County. With so many computers in use, I think more and more > records of I.T. will be published in the near future. > > None of these are on-line that I know of, in case that is the next question. > > Jerri C.

Billie wrote: <snip> "each family members number was in sequence-- Does that mean that the family with the numbers preceding those numbers were related to that family?" No-- not necessarily, except they appear to have been listed on or about the same date, and at the same enrollment location. This (possibly) could indicate that they came together to the enrollment office. This "could" indicate a close or even a family relationship-- but don't count on it. MUCH more important are those enrollees who are shown having the same Census Card numbers. Those would have been listed (usually) on the same enrollment application and the census card would indicate their relationship to the first person on the card. jc

Billie wrote: "Where would a person find the Marriages extracted from the Dawes enrollment applications?" Billie, Those books were extracted, compiled and published by Alma Hutchins of Tahlequah, OK. Her e-mail address is abhutch@fullnet.net. She also did some earlier marriages. Some of the early Vinita marriage record books may be ordered from Craig County Genealogical Society, PO Box 484, Vinita, OK 74301 or picked up at the Vinita Public Library. They also have a publication list with several cemetery books. The Delaware County Birth and Death records may be ordered from Betty Windel of Vinita and her e-mail address is bwindel@junct.com. Regards jc

Seeking more information on my great-grandparents. I know very little and would like to know more. What I know is: Baron Scott Smith married Rosa Gest. Children are: Louemmie Smith (my grandmother) born in AR. Married Thomas Kendrick Snead in OK. Pearl Smith Amos Irving Smith (Pete) m. Inez. Evert Smith Lenard Smith Twins Bessie Smith and Wesley Smith Bessie Van Tassel Phoenix, AZ

June asked "Would you by chance know where these <marriage> records are presently housed?". ~~~ No-- I had heard some from the Muskogee courthouse "disappeared" a few years ago. I would check with the Oklahoma Historical Society, but I haven't found them in any one place or publication. I search high and low for Indian Territory records such as this, and while I don't have time to do lookups in a specific area, many times I do use them to answer queries on this mail list. Some of the marriages have been extracted, compiled and published, such as those from the Vinita Courthouse and those extracted from the Dawes enrollment applications. Just about a year ago the earliest records used to prepare the birth and death certificates of Delaware County were published, which gives the maiden name of the mother. Early Ottawa County School records have been published. I have even found some excellent Indian Territory records at the Clayton Library in Houston Texas, including some pre statehood birth records for Sequoyah County. With so many computers in use, I think more and more records of I.T. will be published in the near future. None of these are on-line that I know of, in case that is the next question. Jerri C.

I am fairly new to genealogy and last year I set forth with Bible history and family folklore to discover what I could. In Jan I went to the McAlester Court House to find an IT marriage record. They sent me next door to the Pittsburg County Genealogical and Historical Society. It is a small operation full of all kinds of records, books and help. I left with the copy of the record and met a cousin who worked there. We were both researching the same surname. A double blessing. Address is 113 E. Carl Albert Parkway McAlester, OK 74501- 5039 Tel #918-423-0388 Some info they have : `1896 IT and Tobucksy County Census ,1900 Choctaw Nation census, Probate Records, Cemetery Records, Funeral Home Records. Indian records of all kinds. Books and info on surrounding counties and States. Too much to list. They sell books with the above info. It was well worth the visit. Oh!!! and nice patient volunteer help. I was very new and very confused with genealogy. Cyndi in CA

I have been told that my grandparents were married about 1895 or so in Coalgate. Where should I start looking for those records? Also, I thought I saw something several weeks ago about the Coal County Gen. Soc. going online....does anyone know anything about that? Thanks! Doris djmoore@nb.net

I stand corrected. My original intent on asking about McAlester marriages, was the fact my grandparents were married there, and as far as we knew they did not live there. Apparently, that was the nearest Federal Court to them in 1902. They were know to be living in Blackfork, Ok., Ogdon, Ar. and Horatico, Ar. It answered a big question for me, and allows me to look in other places for the census where they were living. Are the 1910 census for Oklahoma on line at the present time? Thanks, Carolyn nks, Carolyn

Carolyn asked: "<snip> It answered a big question for me, and allows me to look in other places for the census where they were living. Are the 1910 census for Oklahoma on line at the present time?" ~~ No, the census is not on-line, but it can be ordered/viewed through your nearest Public or LDS Library. It does have a Soundex ("index"). Any librarian will be able to help you to order the correct roll of film. It ("usually") costs only $3.50 per month to rent. jc