At 08:20 AM 22/07/05 -0700, you wrote: > > >Henry Soszynski wrote: > >> Julian Gardner, born c1941, an Anglo-Indian, may be heir to the dormant >> Barony of Gardner of Uttotexeter, though he can't afford to have his claim >> recognized by the appropriate body. He apparently descends from Padshah >> Shah Alam II (1729-1806), via his son Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh >> (+1838), whose daughter married James Valentine Gardner (+1845). Anyone >> have further details of the Gardner-Mughal marriage? >> Cheers, >> Henry >> > >Hello: > >what was the daughter's name? > >what is the lineage from her to Julian Gardner? > >thank-you > > Try <http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html>http://www.gu ardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html Unfortunately the exact line of descent is not spelled out, which is what I'm trying to find out. Cheers, Henry

In message <[email protected]>, Henry Soszynski <[email protected]> writes >At 08:20 AM 22/07/05 -0700, you wrote: >> >> >>Henry Soszynski wrote: >> >>> Julian Gardner, born c1941, an Anglo-Indian, may be heir to the dormant >>> Barony of Gardner of Uttotexeter, though he can't afford to have his claim >>> recognized by the appropriate body. He apparently descends from Padshah >>> Shah Alam II (1729-1806), via his son Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh >>> (+1838), whose daughter married James Valentine Gardner (+1845). Anyone >>> have further details of the Gardner-Mughal marriage? >>> Cheers, >>> Henry >>> >> >>Hello: >> >>what was the daughter's name? >> >>what is the lineage from her to Julian Gardner? >> >>thank-you >> >> >Try ><http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html>http://www.gu >ardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html >Unfortunately the exact line of descent is not spelled out, which is what I'm >trying to find out. >Cheers, >Henry > > I can't give the full answer, but here is a start. Though the family is not in the last two editions of Burke, it is in the 1970 edition, from which, with some additional sources (Burke's Landed Gentry 1937 (for Van Straubenzee) and a post by Annabelle Sutton on the INDIA-L dated 5 jan 2003), the following appears to be Julian Gardner's lineage. There are clearly several cousin marriages involved. Old fashioned spellings as given in Burke. 1. Julian James Gardner (de jure 7th Baron Gardner?) b 1942 2. Alan William Gardner (de jure 6th Baron Gardner) b 3 dec 1908 3. Ethel Lydia Gardner 4. Alan Legge Gardner (de jure 5th Baron Gardner?) b 25 oct 1881 m.(1) 14 jan 1907 5. Christina Gardner d 1918 6. James Valentine Gardner (*see below) 7. 8. Alan Hyde Gardner (de jure 4th Baron Gardner) b 1 jul 1836 d 9 jul 1899 m. 12 mar 1879 9. Jane Sheko d 12 jun 1891 10. William Gardner, Zamindar of Ourrupure 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. Stewart William Gardner b 18 aug 1812 d 20 jul 1882 m. 28 aug 1834 17. Jane Gardner (Hurmoozee Begum) d 15 jun 1869 18. Ungun Sheko 19. 32. Rear Admiral Francis ffarington Gardner b 21 jun 1772 d 8 jul 1821 m. 4 may 1809 33. Catherine Van Straubenzee b 11 jun 1787 d 15 jul 1870 34. Col Alan Gardner d 30 jan 1828 35. 64. Admiral Sir Alan Gardner, 1st Baron Gardner b 12 feb 1742 d 1 jan 1809 m. 20 may 1769 65. Susannah Hyde Gale d 20 apr 1823 66. Charles Spencer Van Straubenzee, of Spennithorne, Yorks 67. Anne Theophila Davison 68. Lt Col William Linnaeus Gardner b 1770 d d 29 jul 1835 69. Nawab Mah Manzil-un-nisa Begum Dehlivi (of Cambay) d 31 aug 1835 128. Lt Col William Gardner b 24 mar 1691 d 14 aug 1762 m. 7 dec 1729 129. Elizabeth ffarington d 16 aug 1783 [dau of Valentine ffarington of Preston] 130. Francis Gale, of Liguanoa, Jamaica 131. Susannah Hall 132. Philip William Casimir Van Straubenzee d 1765 m 1745 133. Jane Turner [dau of Cholmeley Turner of Kirkleatham, Yorks] 134. Rev J Davison, Rector of Scruton 135. [dau of Sir George Vane, of Raby] 136. Major Valentine Gardner b 6 may 1739 [elder son of 128 and 129] 137. Alida Livingston d sep 1791 [dau of Robert Livingston, lord of the manor of Livingston in New York State] * This James Valentine Gardner is presumably a descendant of James Valentine Gardner d Chhaoni 14 jun 1845, eldest son of William Linnaeus Gardner (no 68), who m. (1) Bibi Sahiba Banoo and (2) ca 1834 Nawab Mulka Humanee Begum, dau of Mirza Suleiman Sheko and niece of Emperor Akbar Shah. The obvious places to look next for more information are (a) Morris Bierbrier's list of Mughal descendants published in various numbers of the current American periodical "The Genealogist" (b) District Gazetteers covering Khasganj, Chhaoni, Ourrupure and any other relevant places (all in the United Provinces??). -- Chris Pitt Lewis

At 02:57  24/07/05 +0100, you wrote: >>> >>Try >><<http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html>http://ww w.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html><http://www.gu/>http:/ /www.gu >>ardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html >>Unfortunately the exact line of descent is not spelled out, which is what I'm >>trying to find out. >>Cheers, >>Henry >> > >I can't give the full answer, but here is a start. > >Though the family is not in the last two editions of Burke, it is in the >1970 edition, from which, with some additional sources (Burke's Landed >Gentry 1937 (for Van Straubenzee) and a post by Annabelle Sutton on the >INDIA-L dated 5 jan 2003), the following appears to be Julian Gardner's >lineage.  There are clearly several cousin marriages involved. Old >fashioned spellings as given in Burke. > > >1. Julian James Gardner (de jure 7th Baron Gardner?) b 1942 > >2. Alan William Gardner (de jure 6th Baron Gardner) b 3 dec 1908 >3. Ethel Lydia Gardner > >4. Alan Legge Gardner (de jure 5th Baron Gardner?) b 25 oct 1881 >m.(1) 14 jan 1907 >5. Christina Gardner  d 1918 >6. James Valentine Gardner (*see below) >7. > >8. Alan Hyde Gardner  (de jure 4th Baron Gardner) b 1 jul 1836  d 9 jul >1899 m. 12 mar 1879 >9. Jane Sheko  d 12 jun 1891 >10. William Gardner, Zamindar of Ourrupure >11. >12. >13. >14. >15. > >16. Stewart William Gardner  b 18 aug 1812  d 20 jul 1882 m. 28 aug 1834 >17. Jane Gardner (Hurmoozee Begum)  d 15 jun 1869 >18. Ungun Sheko >19. > >32. Rear Admiral Francis ffarington Gardner  b 21 jun 1772  d 8 jul 1821 >m. 4 may 1809 >33. Catherine Van Straubenzee  b 11 jun 1787  d 15 jul 1870 >34. Col Alan Gardner  d 30 jan 1828 >35. > >64. Admiral Sir Alan Gardner, 1st Baron Gardner b 12 feb 1742  d 1 jan >1809 m. 20 may 1769 >65. Susannah Hyde Gale  d 20 apr 1823 >66. Charles Spencer Van Straubenzee, of Spennithorne, Yorks >67. Anne Theophila Davison >68. Lt Col William Linnaeus Gardner b 1770 d d 29 jul 1835 >69. Nawab Mah Manzil-un-nisa Begum Dehlivi (of Cambay) d 31 aug 1835 > >128. Lt Col William Gardner  b 24 mar 1691  d 14 aug 1762 m. 7 dec 1729 >129. Elizabeth ffarington d 16 aug 1783 [dau of Valentine ffarington of >Preston] >130. Francis Gale, of Liguanoa, Jamaica >131. Susannah Hall >132. Philip William Casimir Van Straubenzee  d 1765  m 1745 >133. Jane Turner [dau of Cholmeley Turner of Kirkleatham, Yorks] >134. Rev J Davison, Rector of Scruton >135. [dau of Sir George Vane, of Raby] >136. Major Valentine Gardner  b 6 may 1739 [elder son of 128 and 129] >137. Alida Livingston d sep 1791 [dau of Robert Livingston, lord of the >manor of Livingston in New York State] > >* This James Valentine Gardner is presumably a descendant of James >Valentine Gardner d Chhaoni 14 jun 1845, eldest son of William Linnaeus >Gardner (no 68), who m. (1) Bibi Sahiba Banoo and (2) ca 1834 Nawab >Mulka Humanee Begum, dau of Mirza Suleiman Sheko and niece of Emperor >Akbar Shah. > >The obvious places to look next for more information are >(a) Morris Bierbrier's list of Mughal descendants published in various >numbers of the current American periodical "The Genealogist" >(b) District Gazetteers covering Khasganj, Chhaoni, Ourrupure and any >other relevant places (all in the United Provinces??). >-- >Chris Pitt Lewis > > Hello Chris, Thnaks for the great info on this family, your mention of Burke's made me look at my Debrett's 1927, which I didn't think would have any information, but did in fact give worthwhile additional data. This is a family that believed in cousin marriages. While we still can't find the link between the two James Valentine Gardners, there's enough there to maybe give a Mughal descent for Julian Gardner anyway, as follows. Julian James Gardner, son of Alan Legge Gardner, son of Jane Sheko, daughter of Ungun Sheko, who I'm equating with Shahzada Mirza Anjan Shikoh, who was son of Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh, son of Padshah Shah Alam 1728-1806. Interestingly enough, Alan Hyde Gardner (1836-1899), had a younger brother, Edward Gardner (1838-1891), who was father of Benjamin (1889-), who married in 1914, Sophie Sheko, possibly a granddaughter of Anjan Shikoh (my guess). It appears to be a large family, so there's probably more Mughal descents and cousin marriages as well. Cheers, Henry

In message <[email protected]>, Henry Soszynski <[email protected]> writes >At 02:57  24/07/05 +0100, you wrote: > >>>> >>>Try >>><<http://www.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html>http://ww >w.guardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html><http://www.gu/>http:/ >/www.gu >>>ardian.co.uk/india/story/0,12559,1102144,00.html >>>Unfortunately the exact line of descent is not spelled out, which is what >I'm >>>trying to find out. >>>Cheers, >>>Henry >>> >> >>I can't give the full answer, but here is a start. >> >>Though the family is not in the last two editions of Burke, it is in the >>1970 edition, from which, with some additional sources (Burke's Landed >>Gentry 1937 (for Van Straubenzee) and a post by Annabelle Sutton on the >>INDIA-L dated 5 jan 2003), the following appears to be Julian Gardner's >>lineage.  There are clearly several cousin marriages involved. Old >>fashioned spellings as given in Burke. >> >> [Long ancestor list snipped] >> >Hello Chris, > Thnaks for the great info on this family, your mention of Burke's >made me look at my Debrett's 1927, which I didn't think would have any >information, but did in fact give worthwhile additional data. This is a family >that believed in cousin marriages. While we still can't find the link between >the two James Valentine Gardners, there's enough there to maybe give a Mughal >descent for Julian Gardner anyway, as follows. >Julian James Gardner, son of >Alan Legge Gardner, son of >Jane Sheko, daughter of Ungun Sheko, who I'm equating with Shahzada Mirza >Anjan >Shikoh, who was son of Shahzada Mirza Suleiman Shikoh, son of Padshah Shah >Alam >1728-1806. >Interestingly enough, Alan Hyde Gardner (1836-1899), had a younger brother, >Edward Gardner (1838-1891), who was father of Benjamin (1889-), who married in >1914, Sophie Sheko, possibly a granddaughter of Anjan Shikoh (my guess). It >appears to be a large family, so there's probably more Mughal descents and >cousin marriages as well. >Cheers, >Henry > > Burke 1970 calls Benjamin's wife "Soaphe Sheakoa", so this may need further investigation. You may be right about "Ungun" equalling "Anjan", but it does not seem to be an obvious way to spell it (one would naturally pronounce it with a hard "g", or the "ng" sound, not a "j"). There are a lot of Gardner to Gardner marriages shown in Burke, which appears to cover the descendants of the 1st Baron fairly fully, but does not trace the descendants of his brother. I imagine that, stranded between the Indian caste system and English racism, but not wanting to marry beneath themselves, the Anglo-Indian Gardners of the late 19th and early 20th centuries had very few choices but to marry each other. -- Chris Pitt Lewis