Maureen - Karoo You are so right and I am so glad that India has mostly persevered with their different styles of clothing..Pandit Nehru did a great service when he chucked all his expensive Saville Row clobber in the bin! Now you can still tell the difference between a Madrasi and a Bengali shop keeper merely, as you said Maureen, by looking at their clothing.....After India I spent some time in East Africa and the ethnic differences were not so easily discerned. Mostly because they had taken to the universal khaki shorts and torn shirt. India - God bless her - the most diversifed and yet unified and successful democracy in the world.........Billllll..........!

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stabler" Maureen - Karoo -You are so right and I am so glad that India has mostly persevered with their different styles of clothing..Pandit Nehru did a great service when he chucked all his expensive Saville Row clobber in the bin! ================================= In contrast, here is a true story from Calcutta. About ten or so years ago the famous (or notorious - depends upon your political views -) painter M F Hussain was not allowed to enter the Calcutta Club's premises by the Indian daarwaan (sentry) on duty there because he was barefoot and as per the Club's rules all males who wish to come inside MUST wear boots or shoes (not even chappals or sandals). Hussain is a modern man, always nattily dressed in designer clothes - but as a matter of principle, he never ever wears anything on his feet. (Don't ask me why, I don't know.) He had gone there as an invitee to chair some function - but the sentry was adamant and refused to make any compromise, as he said he was simply following orders. A thoroughly miffed Hussain walked away and soon the media was abuzz with all kinds of gossip. The Club's management said that this was a very old rule, right from the British days and till then they had never faced a similar situation. They never thought that a celebrity like Hussain would appear barefoot in public. Anti-imperialists had a field day, tempers ran high. Pro and anti-Club opinions were expressed. But despite receiving all this flack, I don't think the management was ready to change its ''Pukka Sahib'' image. Not sure what's the latest position. Even our military, which is steeped in British traditions, has relaxed some of its rigidity and got ''Indianised'' wherever necessary. But not these old clubs at places like Bombay, Calcutta or Bangalore. Their defence I think is that they are private bodies. ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Dear Listers, Harshawardhan says: <Even our military, which is steeped in British traditions, has relaxed some of its rigidity and got ''Indianised'' wherever necessary. But not these old clubs at places like Bombay, Calcutta or Bangalore. Their defence I think is that they are private bodies.> The old guard in Civil Services as also in the Defence forces tried to keep to the traditions handed down by the British to the extent they could but democracy and economic forces have been eating into them and bringing these institutions closer to the 'Indian' India. Entry into the Defence Forces at the officer level was, till the 60's, restricted to upper class boys from bigger cities, educated in the English medium. Ditto for IAS and other higher Civil Services. As the economy expanded, these boys either left India for the western countries or joined management ranks of multinationals and big Indian companies because of better monetary rewards. Their place was taken by bright boys from smaller towns and vernacular schools and these brought their 'Indian' habits with them. As an example, in 1981 I had occasion to spend a few days in Leh, Ladakh and was staying in the camp of the Indo-Tibetan Border Police, a para-military outfit. Indian 'ghee' was a part of the fare in the mess, something unthinkable till the 60's! Yet, they still followed the old rule of not allowing women into the mess except on guest nights by invitation. As probationers in the National Academy of Administration in Mussoorie, we were taught how to solemnly rise at the end of formal dinners and toast 'the President' with orange juice! Our Director was the redoubtable Mr. Pimputkar, ICS, a member of the old guard and a stickler for timetables and rules. I do not think this ritual, so 'British Empire', survives any more under Directors of later years. As to the exclusive clubs, I remember the furor in the 60' when it became known that the Breach Candy Swimming Club in Bombay would not accept Indians as members. Their rules have relaxed since then but even today if an Indian wants to be a member there, it helps if he has a foreign connection - a wife, for example, from one of the rich countries. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 03, 2007.

Actually the Indian military are the most Indianised institution in the country.The greatest nationalists and the most progressive social force in the country. Mandeep ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar" <bosham@gmail.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2007 11:29 AM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Images of India > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Stabler" > Maureen - Karoo -You are so right and I am so glad that India has mostly > persevered with their different styles of clothing..Pandit Nehru did a > great > service when he chucked all his expensive Saville Row clobber in the bin! > ================================= > > In contrast, here is a true story from Calcutta. About ten or so years > ago the famous (or notorious - depends upon your political views -) > painter M F Hussain was not allowed to enter the Calcutta Club's > premises by the Indian daarwaan (sentry) on duty there because he > was barefoot and as per the Club's rules all males who wish to come > inside MUST wear boots or shoes (not even chappals or sandals). > > Hussain is a modern man, always nattily dressed in designer clothes > - but as a matter of principle, he never ever wears anything on his feet. > (Don't ask me why, I don't know.) > > He had gone there as an invitee to chair some function - but the sentry > was adamant and refused to make any compromise, as he said he was > simply following orders. A thoroughly miffed Hussain walked away > and soon the media was abuzz with all kinds of gossip. The Club's > management said that this was a very old rule, right from the British > days and till then they had never faced a similar situation. They never > thought that a celebrity like Hussain would appear barefoot in public. > > Anti-imperialists had a field day, tempers ran high. Pro and anti-Club > opinions were expressed. But despite receiving all this flack, I don't > think the management was ready to change its ''Pukka Sahib'' image. > Not sure what's the latest position. > > Even our military, which is steeped in British traditions, has relaxed > some > of its rigidity and got ''Indianised'' wherever necessary. But not these > old > clubs at places like Bombay, Calcutta or Bangalore. Their defence I think > is that they are private bodies. > > ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > Nagpur, India > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Bill, <You are so right and I am so glad that India has mostly persevered with their different styles of clothing> I am not sure I can agree with you in this , Bill! A lot has changed in India in terms of different styles of clothing. Surely, at the basic level of peasants, landless or marginal farmers, it may be possible to tell the one from South India from another, say, from another from Punjab. But the regional diversity ends there. The young, if they are from the lumpen class either from the cities or from villagers, all dress alike, in cheap trousers, denims or of other cloth, and T-shirts/Manilas. The middle classes all dress alike in trousers and shirts, only the cut and the quality distinguishing one economic class from the other, but you cannot tell a Tamil from the Bengali merely by looking at the dress. The headgears, at one time a sure way of telling the regional origin, have almost disappeared, like the hat in the Western societies. I always say in half jest that the best way of telling the origin of an Indian of the middle class is to listen to his English! For example, the Gujarati does not know the soft 'ph', for him everything is the strong spittle-spewing close-lipped 'f'. For the Bihari, 'University' is 'Unibhersity', the Punjabi imports his mother-tongue habit of shifting the accent towards the end of the word into his English speech, thus 'phalon ka ras' (fruit juice) is 'flon ka ras' and Me'naka Gandhi is Mane'ka Gandhi, the Maharastrian believes in giving the full value to each letter in the spelling as he does in his native Marathi, his 'r's, 'd's and 't's are therefore very strong, the South Indian believes that every letter in the spelling has to be rendered out loud, thus 'immediately' for him has an actually audible double m in its rendering... The English language with its regional variations surely is a legacy that the British unwittingly left in India. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 02, 2007.

Interesting. As an aside the redoubtable youngest of the Gandhi bahus changed her name from Menaka to Maneka upon her marriage since the former means, 'skilled in sex' and moreover is associated with the seductress of sage Vishwamitra and therefore unsuitable for the daughter in law of India's ruling family.Even the blocks used to print pictures of her clad in just a towel for a DCM ad were destroyed. Anyway everybody in Punjab still calls her Menaka so why did she bother ? Mandeep ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arvind Kolhatkar" <akolhatkar@rogers.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 03, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Images of India > Bill, > > <You are so right and I am so glad that India has mostly persevered with > their different styles of clothing> > > I am not sure I can agree with you in this , Bill! > > A lot has changed in India in terms of different styles of clothing. > Surely, at the basic level of peasants, landless or marginal farmers, it > may > be possible to tell the one from South India from another, say, from > another > from Punjab. But the regional diversity ends there. The young, if they > are > from the lumpen class either from the cities or from villagers, all dress > alike, in cheap trousers, denims or of other cloth, and T-shirts/Manilas. > The middle classes all dress alike in trousers and shirts, only the cut > and > the quality distinguishing one economic class from the other, but you > cannot > tell a Tamil from the Bengali merely by looking at the dress. The > headgears, at one time a sure way of telling the regional origin, have > almost disappeared, like the hat in the Western societies. > > I always say in half jest that the best way of telling the origin of an > Indian of the middle class is to listen to his English! For example, the > Gujarati does not know the soft 'ph', for him everything is the strong > spittle-spewing close-lipped 'f'. For the Bihari, 'University' is > 'Unibhersity', the Punjabi imports his mother-tongue habit of shifting the > accent towards the end of the word into his English speech, thus 'phalon > ka > ras' (fruit juice) is 'flon ka ras' and Me'naka Gandhi is Mane'ka Gandhi, > the Maharastrian believes in giving the full value to each letter in the > spelling as he does in his native Marathi, his 'r's, 'd's and 't's are > therefore very strong, the South Indian believes that every letter in the > spelling has to be rendered out loud, thus 'immediately' for him has an > actually audible double m in its rendering... > > The English language with its regional variations surely is a legacy that > the British unwittingly left in India. > > Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 02, 2007. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >