Dear Arvind, Why are you so rotten about the Brits? What did we ever do to you? Granted, the early Brits in India may have been a bunch of toffee-nosed snobs, but gradually over the years, all classes of Englishmen, women and children came to India and loved it as their second home, including making friends with Indian families, to say nothing of their beloved ayahs and other workers in their homes. Sorry ro be so forthright, but you made me do it! Salaams 'n' samosas from Hazel Craig. P.S. And I think you must have meant 'adapting' and not 'adopting' to the Indian lifestyles and habits ...

Hazel, Quite to the contrary! I am an admirer of the British and of the contribution they made in making India what it is today. In one of my old posts I have said that the colonial rule was a price that India lucky to pay to get out of the quagmire of centuries of lack of vision. India paid that price and has come out a much better place than what it would have been had the anarchy continued under the Mughals, Marathas and sundry other potentates. But does this mean that I cannot make an honest observation in an academic spirit about some of the behavior patterns of the British that I find difficult to understand? That is what this List is all about. It is not a mutual admiration society I suppose. While admiring the British I have not suspended my disbelief. Cheer up! I mean no offence to you. As to loving ayahs let me state my take quite frankly. Ayahs were loved no more and no less than Uncle Toms were loved in plantations in the Southern States of the US. She was loved so long as she knew that she was an Ayah and kept to her station. Would the love survive if she tried to be uppity? Would that much-loved Ayah's daughter be invited to a dance party in her employer's house? On a similar theme, have you seen the 1989 movie called 'Driving Miss Daisy'? The character of the black driver played by Morgan Freeman correctly brings this out in one of his dialogues. There is nothing unusual in this. In all societies and at all times there have been relationships like this. But there is no offence in keeping in mind that it was a relationship of servitude and not of friendship between to equals. Why pretend otherwise? One of the stereotypes of Bollywood family dramas is the honest old family retainer, usually called 'Chacha' or Uncle. He is a much loved Chacha but the youngest boy in the family can still order him around. I am sure I am inviting upon myself the ire of many but still feel that I must be honest. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, July 14, 2008.

Dear Hazel I'd like to put my oar in here (univited but never mind). The only thing I can read into Arvind's message is that the Brits in India were rather silly not to have adopted the Indian way of living, given the climate. Perhaps quite a few of our ancestors would have lived a great deal more comfortably if they had stopped wearing stiff collars and ties, or petticoats and high necked dresses. If Ghee was more healthy than butter in pre-refrigerator days in the Indian climate, why was it not used? As to sitting on the ground, wearing tight trousers or lots of skirt and petticoat it is not exactly easy to sit cross legged. I do not see this message as an insult, only a well thought out commentary. Best wishes Denise Hughes Weston Researching in India: CHAMARETTE, WESTON, ASH, COMBES, THOMPSON, JOHANNES (OR JOHANESS) & MOORE U.K.: HUGHES & NORRIS, BOYTON & KING, WESTON & SHORTER

I'm quite enjoying this one, guys!! :)) And now for my two shekel's worth.....:)) At first it was far easier for British men to integrate into Indian society, but when Protestantism became the rule of the day in England, any intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics was frowned upon, to the degree that a priest was charged with treason for marrying a British soldier to an Eurasian lady of Portuguese descent. Once British women began to arrive in India in numbers, this bigotry was extended even further (what British woman of the day wished to be sent home husbandless and dubbed a "returned empty"?!!) towards those who married Indian women, although this had already begun to take root. As to the social snobbery: let's face it....for the most part the Brits who went to India were on the lowest rungs of the social ladder in England, so there can be very little doubt that when they got to India where they were the ruling class and had servants at their beck and call, it completely went to their heads. They must have thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, having somebody to look down upon for a change, instead of bearing the brunt of snobbery back home. As to Asian people in general (and AI's in particular) not integrating: we are a pretty multicultural mob here in Australia. I'm largely of Scottish/Irish descent, and grew up with all the old sayings, songs, poetry, &ca., which had trickled down through the generations from Scotland and Ireland. My mum was, and I am, very proud of her ancestry, and we wore kilts as children on a regular basis. In my humble experiencem, it's not non-European groups who are the most die-hard when it comes to integrating......it's people from Britain, including my own erstwhile outlaws. I've absolutely no objection to immigrants wearing their national dress, if that's what they feel most comfortable with, and it also lends this lump of rock I'm living on a cosmopolitan atmosphere that is very nice to live in. As to AI's in Oz...........yes, they do integrate very well for the most part, but I hope and pray that they will never lose touch with their culture, but celebrate it the way so many other immigrants here still do. As Eric Stracey once said to me: "I don't think of myself as being an AI or Australian......I consider myself to be a citizen of the world. But when I'm with other AI's, I feel far more AI". I guess, guys, that this is the sense of community which is said to have been lost? Which, if that were the case, begs the questions: "Why all the reunions, dances, associations, if the AI community is lost or in danger of being lost? Why bother?" The answer's simple......it's not lost, and I doubt that it will ever go, because your children have grown up, or are growing up, in a distinctly AI atmosphere. What makes any of us think, that they won't carry on these little family.....and community....traditions? Cheers, guys. Lynne. :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Denise Hughes" <denise_hughes@terra.es> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Adopting to the Indian life-styles andhabits > Dear Hazel > > I'd like to put my oar in here (univited but never mind). The only > thing I can read into Arvind's message is that the Brits in India were > rather silly not to have adopted the Indian way of living, given the > climate. > > Perhaps quite a few of our ancestors would have lived a great deal > more comfortably if they had stopped wearing stiff collars and ties, > or petticoats and high necked dresses. > > If Ghee was more healthy than butter in pre-refrigerator days in the > Indian climate, why was it not used? > > As to sitting on the ground, wearing tight trousers or lots of skirt > and petticoat it is not exactly easy to sit cross legged. > > I do not see this message as an insult, only a well thought out > commentary. > > Best wishes > Denise Hughes Weston > Researching in > India: CHAMARETTE, WESTON, ASH, COMBES, THOMPSON, JOHANNES (OR > JOHANESS) & MOORE > U.K.: HUGHES & NORRIS, BOYTON & KING, WESTON & SHORTER > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date: 7/14/2008 > 6:49 AM > >

Having been brought up in 'that' society I couldn't agree more. Molly Sarstedt-Hamilton, Townsville, Australia Researching - Sarstedt/Hitchcock/Osborne/Cullen/Pringle/Vargas/Hamilton/Slark/Samworth/Fury/Short/Lawcock/Smith Beautiful autumn weather at present ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lynne Hadley" <lynnehadley1@bigpond.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 12:59 PM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Adopting to the Indian life-styles andhabits > I'm quite enjoying this one, guys!! :)) And now for my two shekel's > worth.....:)) At first it was far easier for British men to integrate > into > Indian society, but when Protestantism became the rule of the day in > England, any intermarriage between Protestants and Catholics was frowned > upon, to the degree that a priest was charged with treason for marrying a > British soldier to an Eurasian lady of Portuguese descent. Once British > women began to arrive in India in numbers, this bigotry was extended even > further (what British woman of the day wished to be sent home husbandless > and dubbed a "returned empty"?!!) towards those who married Indian women, > although this had already begun to take root. > > As to the social snobbery: let's face it....for the most part the Brits > who > went to India were on the lowest rungs of the social ladder in England, so > there can be very little doubt that when they got to India where they were > the ruling class and had servants at their beck and call, it completely > went > to their heads. They must have thought they'd died and gone to Heaven, > having somebody to look down upon for a change, instead of bearing the > brunt > of snobbery back home. > > As to Asian people in general (and AI's in particular) not integrating: > we > are a pretty multicultural mob here in Australia. I'm largely of > Scottish/Irish descent, and grew up with all the old sayings, songs, > poetry, > &ca., which had trickled down through the generations from Scotland and > Ireland. My mum was, and I am, very proud of her ancestry, and we wore > kilts as children on a regular basis. In my humble experiencem, it's not > non-European groups who are the most die-hard when it comes to > integrating......it's people from Britain, including my own erstwhile > outlaws. > > I've absolutely no objection to immigrants wearing their national dress, > if > that's what they feel most comfortable with, and it also lends this lump > of > rock I'm living on a cosmopolitan atmosphere that is very nice to live in. > As to AI's in Oz...........yes, they do integrate very well for the most > part, but I hope and pray that they will never lose touch with their > culture, but celebrate it the way so many other immigrants here still do. > As Eric Stracey once said to me: "I don't think of myself as being an AI > or > Australian......I consider myself to be a citizen of the world. But when > I'm with other AI's, I feel far more AI". I guess, guys, that this is the > sense of community which is said to have been lost? Which, if that were > the > case, begs the questions: "Why all the reunions, dances, associations, if > the AI community is lost or in danger of being lost? Why bother?" The > answer's simple......it's not lost, and I doubt that it will ever go, > because your children have grown up, or are growing up, in a distinctly AI > atmosphere. What makes any of us think, that they won't carry on these > little family.....and community....traditions? Cheers, guys. Lynne. :)) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Denise Hughes" <denise_hughes@terra.es> > To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 2:24 AM > Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Adopting to the Indian life-styles > andhabits > > >> Dear Hazel >> >> I'd like to put my oar in here (univited but never mind). The only >> thing I can read into Arvind's message is that the Brits in India were >> rather silly not to have adopted the Indian way of living, given the >> climate. >> >> Perhaps quite a few of our ancestors would have lived a great deal >> more comfortably if they had stopped wearing stiff collars and ties, >> or petticoats and high necked dresses. >> >> If Ghee was more healthy than butter in pre-refrigerator days in the >> Indian climate, why was it not used? >> >> As to sitting on the ground, wearing tight trousers or lots of skirt >> and petticoat it is not exactly easy to sit cross legged. >> >> I do not see this message as an insult, only a well thought out >> commentary. >> >> Best wishes >> Denise Hughes Weston >> Researching in >> India: CHAMARETTE, WESTON, ASH, COMBES, THOMPSON, JOHANNES (OR >> JOHANESS) & MOORE >> U.K.: HUGHES & NORRIS, BOYTON & KING, WESTON & SHORTER >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.10/1551 - Release Date: >> 7/14/2008 >> 6:49 AM >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Arvind has started an interesting discussion thread here - I didn't think he was being unduly critical about the Brits, simply making an observation of fact! > Granted, the early Brits in India may have been a bunch of > toffee-nosed snobs, Actually Hazel, I'm not sure that I agree with you here either. I think that it was probably the 'early Brits' (thinking of 17th, 18th up to the very early 19th century) who were the most respectful to their Indian hosts - although they (British) brought in a new system of government and of law, it was introduced on top of a long tradition of scholarship and literacy among Indians of comparable class. The snobbery became more pronounced as more British women arrived in India in the Victorian era, and in the same way that it was (? is) evident in England, it applied between people of different social and/or intellectual standing. Of course that is not to deny that the British have a reputation of being somewhat patronising towards the local populace in any country they colonised. I suspect, Arvind, that what prevented the adoption of some sensible Indian dress for instance was the need to "keep up the standards" as my very English late mother used to say. Her standards involved related to maintaining her dress and appearance 'just so' - I can't imagine her ever fitting in to life in India, except as a memsahib. Incidentally, when I visited India, I found the most comfortable clothes to be cotton sulwar kameez (any spelling!) In general, I think the need to command respect was at the base of English behaviour - so as they respected each other for maintaining certain standards, they assumed the native population would respect them for the same things. Don't know much about ayahs in real life - however, on the 1840 census data which I am currently analysing, I have found evidence that a grandmother or mother-in-law, often filled the role of Ayah and was described as such. Not sure that I have contributed much useful to this thread ... Sylvia