Moira I would like very much, to have viewed the URL below but I am 'told' 'Directory Listing is Denied' . If John F is reading this, perhaps he can tweak a tiny url - or something ?! Wishes Sally S > Comment by Moira Breen > This is known as the First Afghan War in British history 1839-42 > The above is the Retreat from Kabul in January 1842 and described in > great detail in www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak > which also has some very good copies of paintings of this event. This > site can also be accessed through Google. 4500 British troops and 1200- > civillians were lost.

A 120-year-old legal battle 17 Jun 2008 NAGPUR: Even as descendants of the Bhonsle family are fighting with the state government to get back their ancestral ornaments from the custody of the court of wards, a bigger litigation has been going on for a few generations. The Bhonsles, who set up their kingdom in the mid-1700s, are fighting a unique case for more than 120 years in the English courts to reclaim their treasure, including family jewellery, which the British had taken away after the Battle of Sitabuldi in 1817, which the Bhonsles had lost. "King Appasaheb Bhonsle had gone into hiding and only the women and children were in the palace. The British used this moment to attack the palace,'' says Raje Mudhoji III Bhonsle, the scion of the royal family. "The British had in fact used the treasure to set up the Bank of Lords in England." The Bhonsles owe Rs 3.5 cr as income and wealth tax which the state government is trying to recover by auctioning the family jewellery in its custody. The family has obtained a stay from the high court on the auction and is keen to pay off the tax by reclaiming their wealth. According to Mudhoji, even at that time international laws prevented a victorious army from laying hands on personal assets of a losing king. "It was on this point that Raje Janoji Bhonsle petitioned the English court somewhere around 1870. And the litigation still goes on,'' he said. "It's probably the only litigation in the country where an erstwhile ruling family is still waging a battle against the British." The Bhonsle family received help from a few British officers in this regard too. The ornaments for which the family is pursuing a legal battle are just a small fraction of what the British have taken away. Generations have passed since the litigation was filed in England and firms of solicitors have changed with time, but the case still continues. "At present it is being fought by the English solicitors firm of M/s Gandhi and Gandhi," Mudhoji said. "During the pre-independence days eminent freedom fighter Dadabhai Navroji too had pressed for justice for the Bhonsles." According to Mudhoji, an intricate seven-step process is being followed in the British courts. "The Bhonsles have already won the first four steps which include examining the merits of the case like whether the litigation should be admitted or not, and other aspects," he said. Mudhoji is keen that the Centre takes up the case of the Bhonsles. "It's not just our treasure I'm talking about, it's of the country," he stressed. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Nagpur/A_120-year-old_legal_battle/articleshow/3135749.cms --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

It does. Also, if you wish to enjoy additional delights, go to the main page here - http://www.britishbattles.com and choose anything from the menu on the left side. Excellent website, this. --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India >From Rupert Butler>>>> I had the same trouble, but typing in the root address opened the web page. This link is my copy of the full address from my viewing - the .htm obviously makes the difference http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm I would like very much, to have viewed the URL below but I am 'told' 'Directory Listing is Denied' . --- Sally S

> We have recently added details of the action at Gandamak on the > FIBIS Battle Index. I have been unable to find the background of > Captain Souter or what happened to him after his capture. Does > anyone have any knowledge of any records we can link to? > >> . The final stand took place at >> Gandamak on the morning of 13th January 1842 in the snow. 20 officers >> and 45 European soldiers, mostly of the 44th Foot, found themselves >> surrounded on a hillock. The Afghans attempted to persuade the >> soldiers >> that they intended them no harm. Then the sniping began followed a >> series of rushes. Captain Souter, (a gr gr grandfather of mine), >> wrapped >> the colours of the regiment around his body and was dragged into >> captivity with two or three soldiers. Thanks Sy

Dear Sally I had the same trouble, but typing in the root address opened the web page. This link is my copy of the full address from my viewing - the .htm obviously makes the difference http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm Rupert Butler -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Karoo Sent: 19 July 2008 14:21 To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] The British have always tended torevel in theirdisasters Moira I would like very much, to have viewed the URL below but I am 'told' 'Directory Listing is Denied' . If John F is reading this, perhaps he can tweak a tiny url - or something ?! Wishes Sally S > Comment by Moira Breen > This is known as the First Afghan War in British history 1839-42 > The above is the Retreat from Kabul in January 1842 and described in > great detail in www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak > which also has some very good copies of paintings of this event. This > site can also be accessed through Google. 4500 British troops and 1200- > civillians were lost. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.5.2/1561 - Release Date: 7/18/2008 6:35 PM

Hi Arvind, That would be correct.While officers' messes retain much of the ways of the British, the cuisine is overwhelmingly Indian. That was a sore point in the days of the Raj - the lack of Indian food, music and literature in officer's messes. Jawans were well looked after by the British.While British troops in the front line survived for months on the monotonous diet of tinned bully beef ,hard tack and tea Indian troops had dry rations of dal, atta(flour) and rice and tinned vegetables, meat and fruit.The British supply system took pains to keep Indian troops supplied with fresh vegetables, meat and Indian style composite rations wherever possible. Regards, Mandeep ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arvind Kolhatkar" <akolhatkar@rogers.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Soojee in ghee > Mandeep, > > Thanks for removing my misconception. Is it that desi ghee was available > to > the Jawans before 1947 and entered Officers' Messes after 1947? > > Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, July 15, 2008. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi List: Am not quoting Moira's personal reply as I don't have her ok, but didn't think she'd mind this little extract: ". . . when my brother . . . visited me in the US . . . [his passport] was quizzed by two Americans at Heathrow. He explained that when he was born Quetta was in British India. They said "not any more." Which reminded me that a few years ago when in the depths of self-pity & depression about illness, I said to the Doctor and her aide "I can't even buy a bloody gun to kill myself, because my passport shows I'm born in Quetta, Pakistan." They roared with laughter, and then of course so did I. It's the little things that lift the spirit. Claire.

I have just been sent a link to a new and very beautiful website with pictures and slide shows of Serampore which focusses on the historical places of the Baptist Mission there and also the Baptist mission chapels in Calcutta. <http://www.virtualserampore.org/> http://www.virtualserampore.org/ <mailto:india@rootsweb.com> Sylvia

-H: Dumb in a young way - YES! --M ++++ --- On Sat, 7/19/08, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar <bosham@gmail.com> wrote: > Of course! It proves that I really am dumb. I was completely > blanked out on this one. Thank you so much. > > -- Harshawardhan

Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar <bosham@gmail.com> wrote: >This looks like a great site, something about which Mandeep >can tell us more. http://www.patriotfiles.com/index.php >''Dedicated to the preservation of military history''. >I don't precisely understand the significance of the date in the >following information: The Indian Army on 3 September 1939. >http://www.patriotfiles.com/index.php? On 3 September 1939, Britain declared war on Germany and this was the beginning of WW2. Britain assumed that India was also at war with Germany while Indians in India would have liked to be in control of their own destiny. Moira Breen

Dear Listers: See Claire Bradley's letter for the correct listing for the site; the letters htm must be added. Sorry, I goofed. As she says it is an excellent site and the pictures are superb. It is well worth visiting. Moira Breen

Comment by Moira Breen This is known as the First Afghan War in British history 1839-42 The above is the Retreat from Kabul in January 1842 and described in great detail in http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak<http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak> . . . . This site can also be accessed through Google . . . . though I couldn't get it without the ".htm" http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm<http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm> Great site. How are you Moira? Didn't know you were also born in Quetta -- a fellow Baluchistani. Sweltering in NYC -- 98F (37C) today it's said. Cheers, Claire

Andrew Sellon <andrew@sellon.vispa.com> wrote: Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar wrote: > Published 3/2/2007 >Andrew Sellon wrote > > , concessions were made to the Afghans and finally >a 'safe conduct' was accepted, in return for which the British would >return to India. >. The final stand took place at >Gandamak on the morning of 13th January 1842 in the snow. 20 officers >and 45 European soldiers, mostly of the 44th Foot, found themselves >surrounded on a hillock. The Afghans attempted to persuade the soldiers >that they intended them no harm. Then the sniping began followed a >series of rushes. Captain Souter, (a gr gr grandfather of mine), wrapped >the colours of the regiment around his body and was dragged into >captivity with two or three soldiers. >One person had escaped the previous night, without orders. It was the >evocative painting of him riding an exhausted horse that was the subject >of Lady Butler's painting "The Remnants of an Army", towards the walls >of Jallallabad that afternoon that is possibly the most poignant image >of these events. Comment by Moira Breen This is known as the First Afghan War in British history 1839-42 The above is the Retreat from Kabul in January 1842 and described in great detail in www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak which also has some very good copies of paintings of this event. This site can also be accessed through Google. 4500 British troops and 1200- civillians were lost. Dr Brydon is the "one person who escaped" and is the subject of Lady Butler's painting. My mother had a copy of this painting on the stairway when I was growing up as a child in India and from a very early age I learnt about this battle. My father was a physician in the British Military Hospital in Quetta - on the border of Afghanistan and India (now Pakistan) - and where I lived the first 3 years of my life. This part of the world is very much in our news on TV everynight and many of the conclusions drawn from the War of 1842 cited by Andrew Sellon are still relevant to-day. Moira Breen USA

Village of Army Canteen Contractors http://www.mylearning.org/playback-audio.asp?journeyid=383&resourceid=940 --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Published 3/2/2007 Another Perspective = The Myth of Afghanistan By Hal G.P. Colebatch [a lawyer and author, has lectured in International Law and International Relations at Notre Dame University and Edith Cowan University in Western Australia and worked on the staff of two Australian Federal Ministers.] Quote --- *** The very word "Afghanistan" has come to mean something like "graveyard of invading armies." Type "British Defeat Afghanistan" into Google and you will come up with about 3,360,000 entries. It is a myth the British themselves largely created. It is ironic that it seems to owe much to Rudyard Kipling, the great poet of the British Empire, and the distinguished military artist Lady Elizabeth Butler, otherwise famous for her depictions of heroic British cavalry charges. The British have always tended to revel in their disasters rather than their victories (when history was taught in British schools, all knew about the hopeless charge of the Light Brigade at Balaclava; hardly any knew of the astoundingly successful charge of the Heavy Brigade the same day, both the subject of poems by Tennyson). Lately, of course, the adversary culture has seized avidly on any mythology that tends to discredit and demoralize the West and Western civilization. However, the facts are somewhat different. The relatively few British adventures in Afghanistan, apart from one-off punitive expeditions, were, like the allied campaign today, basically attempts to support or set up friendly governments and then get out, not to conquer and annex or occupy the country. They had limited objectives and were for the most part successful. *** Unquote Snipped from http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=11092 --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar wrote: > Published 3/2/2007 > > Another Perspective = The Myth of Afghanistan > > By Hal G.P. Colebatch [a lawyer and author, has lectured in > International Law and International Relations at Notre Dame > University and Edith Cowan University in Western Australia > and worked on the staff of two Australian Federal Ministers.] > > Quote --- > > *** The very word "Afghanistan" has come to mean something like > "graveyard of invading armies." Type "British Defeat Afghanistan" > into Google and you will come up with about 3,360,000 entries. > > It is a myth the British themselves largely created. <snip> Colebatch, as many historians are, is being somewhat selective in his choice of examples. Yes, he is partly correct in so far as the charges of the Light and Heavy Brigades are concerned, but set that against two linked happenings in the Zulu War, the battles of Isandlwana and Rorke's Drift in 1879. Until a few years ago Isandwana, perhaps the most complete defeat by the British Army, some 1,500 troops being killed by the rampant Impi.was an engagement unknown to the public. However a couple of days later at Rorke' Drift, only a few miles away, were 145 troops defending the small border post against the Zulus where after ferocious fighting for ten hours the Zulus were driven off. It was not the defeat at Isandawa that was impressed on the mind of the public, but the 'triumph' of Rorke's Drift was hailed as a high point in the annals of the British army. So far as Afghanistan is concerned the major British debacle there was the First Afghan War. All started well so far as the British were concerned, and after a while they summoned their wives and households to Kabul, where they led life as if on an Indian cantonment. Part of the force returned to India, and there was a change in command. At that the position deteriorated, concessions were made to the Afghans and finally a 'safe conduct' was accepted, in return for which the British would return to India. The winter was bad, the temperatures freezing, when the force meandered out of Kabul towards the pass and India. Sniping started immediately, many died from the cold and finally, the higher command having presented themselves as 'hostages' to the Afghans for a 'safe passage' for the troops and remaining camp followers. Ambushes and road blocks were in place through out the pass, and the slaughter continued. Finally there were but a very few left. The final stand took place at Gandamak on the morning of 13th January 1842 in the snow. 20 officers and 45 European soldiers, mostly of the 44th Foot, found themselves surrounded on a hillock. The Afghans attempted to persuade the soldiers that they intended them no harm. Then the sniping began followed a series of rushes. Captain Souter, (a gr gr grandfather of mine), wrapped the colours of the regiment around his body and was dragged into captivity with two or three soldiers. One person had escaped the previous night, without orders. It was the evocative painting of him riding an exhausted horse that was the subject of Lady Butler's painting "The Remnants of an Army", towards the walls of Jallallabad that afternoon that is possibly the most poignant image of these events. Elphlenstone, through age and illness, was not fit for command, but was able to prevent others on his staff showing any spark of initiative or leadership.The entire force of 690 British soldiers, 2,840 Indian soldiers and 12,000 followers were killed or in a few cases taken prisoner. The 44th Foot lost 22 officers and 645 soldiers, mostly killed. Afghan casualties, largely Ghilzai tribesmen, are unknown. Even set against the casualties sustained in WW I this is probably the greatest single defeat suffered by Great Britain, through her agent, the H.E.I.C.. Prior to this British force of arms had been thought invincible in the sub-continent, the retreat from Kabul illustrated that this manifestly was not so. An uneasy underswell originating here could well have helped fuel the fires of the Mutiny in 1857. This was a disaster well beyond that at Isandwa, from which long lasting lessons were learnt by the British: The First Afghan War provided the clear lesson to the British authorities that while it may be relatively straightforward to invade Afghanistan it is wholly impracticable to occupy the country or attempt to impose a government not welcomed by the inhabitants. The only result will be failure and great expense in treasure and lives. Another was that the political officers must not be permitted to predominate over military judgments. Soviet Russia's experience shows that these lessons still hold good, but the memory now appears be fading in the minds of our political lords and masters. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon For God's sake, do not drag me into another war! I am worn down and worn out with crusading and defending Europe and protecting mankind; I must think a little of myself. I am sorry for the Spaniards – I am sorry for the Greeks – I deplore the fate of the Jews; the people of the Sandwich Islands are groaning under the most detestable tyranny; Baghdad is oppressed – I do not like the present state of the Delta – Tibet is not comfortable. Am I to fight for all these people? Am I to be Champion of the Decalogue and to be eternally raising fleets and armies to make all men good and happy? We have just done saving Europe, and I am afraid the consequence will be that we shall cut each other's throats Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's.

G'day Andrew, On 18/07/2008, at 1:09 AM, Andrew Sellon wrote: << Am I correct, or not, in thinking that the father of a great life long favourite of mine, Joanna Lumley, was stationed in Sikkim sometime during the 1920/30s ? >> See.... http://www.danutakean.com/blog/?p=23 Using Google and this search criteria you will find a few more references... "Joanna Lumley" +sikkim ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

John Feltham wrote: > See.... > > http://www.danutakean.com/blog/?p=23 > > Using Google and this search criteria you will find a few more > references... > > "Joanna Lumley" +sikkim > Thank you, John. The advice that I frequently give to other people is "Why not try Google?" :-[ Yours Aye Andrew Sellon It is a scandalous injustice in this colony, that persons transported for seven years have no power of returning when that period is expired. A strong active man may sometimes work his passage home; but what is an old man or an aged female to do? Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's. Edinburgh Review. 1819. On: Botany Bay.

Begin forwarded message: Date: 17 July 2008 8:05:29 PM To: PAGODA TREE PRESS EMAIL LIST Subject: A New Pagoda Tree Press Publication: "Touring in Sikkim & Tibet' by David MacDonald Pagoda Tree Press are pleased to announce the publication of another addition to our series of reprints of early Himalayan Guide Books: Touring In Sikkim & Tibet By David MacDonald. First published in 1930; this is a practical handbook for travellers; written by the famous Kalimpong based hotelier, travel writer and explorer, David Macdonald. It covers travel routes through Sikkim and into Southern Tibet through the Chumbi Valley, up to Gyantse; and contains route descriptions, together with much practical information for the traveller of that time. A5 format in soft covers pp:68 with black and white illustrations. ISBN: 978-1904289-54-8. Price: £10.00 (plus £0.66 UK postage / £1.20 EEC postage / £1.85 worldwide airmail postage; per copy) It is only available directly from Pagoda Tree Press. To order your copy now by email, please cut & paste the order form below in to new email, and then fill it out, and send it, together with credit card details, to hughrayner@pagodatreepress.com Or alternatively, you can order by phone, fax or post, giving your credit/debit card details. We accept payment by Visa / Mastercard/ American Express / Maestro, and most other major credit/ debit cards. Tel /Fax: 0044 1225 463552. **************************************************************************************** ORDER FORM NAME: SHIPPING ADDRESS: POST/ ZIP CODE: TELEPHONE No: E - mail: Please send me copy [ies] of "TOURING IN SIKKIM & TIBET 1930" by David MacDonald at UK£10.00 per copy, plus UK £ per copy postage. PAYMENT DETAILS: I wish to pay by Credit/Debit card Card type: Card number: (N.B. if preferable; you can send the card number in two separate emails, for added security) Expiry date: Issue Number (Debit Cards Only): Card holder’s name: Cardholder’s Address (if different from above): **************************************************************************************** You can also order by post; sending a copy of this form, with a sterling cheque; made payable to Pagoda Tree Press (or alternatively, a sterling postal order made payable to Hugh A. Rayner) FORTHCOMING PUBLICATIONS: Other titles scheduled for publication in the near future: The Sportsman’s Manual In Kulu, Spiti & Lahaul By Col. R. H. Tyacke First published in India in 1893, and reprinted in 1925. Packed with sensible advice and practical travel and camping tips, and written in a chatty informal style; it is a detailed study of the landscape, culture and wildlife of the Kulu, Spiti, Kashmir, Chamba, Bara Bhagal & Lahaul regions, as they were at the end of the 19th Century; but still has much of great interest and relevance for anyone travelling in these areas today. The author, Colonel R. H. Tyacke; was a keen sportsman and notable big game hunter, and a long term resident of the Kulu Valley. He writes about the region, as it was at that time, with an unrivalled knowledge and authority. A5 format in soft covers. 76 pages, with b/w illustrations and maps. ISBN: 978-1094289-38-8. Price: £12.00 Scheduled Publication Date: August 2008. Also: Camera Shikar in Kashmir by Randolph Bezant Holmes ('Holmes of the Frontier') Scheduled Publication Date: Autumn 2008. And: The Indian Cook and Housekeeper by Flora Annie Steele. Scheduled Publication Date: Autumn 2008. Important Note: You have been sent this email because you have already been a client of Pagoda Tree Press or Hugh Ashley Rayner Antiquarian Books; or have expressed an interest in receiving our book lists and publication notifications. If this is not the case, or you wish for any reason to be removed from our mailing list; then please email me, and you will be immediately removed from all future mailings. ******************************************************** Hugh Ashley Rayner Pagoda Tree Press Publisher, Printer & Retail Distributor of Books on India, The Himalayas & Tibet. UK Distributors for CBC Publishing, Harare, Zimbabwe. 4 Malvern Buildings Fairfield Park Bath BA1 6JX England Tel/Fax: 0044 1225 463552 http://www.pagodatreepress.com ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

G'day folks, From another List. If you wander through the National Maritime Museum you will find in 'Research Guide C13', a claim to hold the following :- "British India Steam Navigation Company Records of commanders, officers, engineers, cadets and stewards 1868-1957 are contained in 40 volumes." ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.