Manaia - truth is that alternative spellings are acceptable and which spelling is preferred will often depend on tradition, community and culture. We had a similar debate in the Sydney Morning Herald (a daily newspaper here, see www.smh.com.au) recently about the spelling of veranda, or should it be verandah?** Like Maharaja/Maharajah - dictionaries give both spellings as acceptable. Since my earlier post, I have located my other dictionary, Lewis, see below, and he says: (note spellings reproduced as is but without diacritical marks): Maharaja(h) [17C. S. maha, 'great' + raja, 'sovereign'.] Indian prince: Maharaj (1826). A title of some Indian princes. So, Maharani, a Maharajah's wife (rani, 'queen', 'princess')(1855). [OED; Fryer, A New Acct of E.India & Persia (1672-81; ed.1698)] So, while I sympathise with your problem (and thank you for sharing the Palagi/Papalagi debate with us)I think spellings with and without the final 'h' are equally correct and a matter of preference for the writer and, maybe of more importance - the reader!! For anyone interested in meaning and spelling of words that have moved from the Indian sub-continent into the English language, I recommend two books: Ivor Lewis "Sahibs, Nabobs and Boxwallahs" A Dictionry of the Words of Anglo-India, pub OUP, Delhi 1997 And Henry Yule & A C Burnell: "Hobson-Jobson: The Anglo-Indian Dictionary" - first published 1886 (I have a Wordsworth paperback edition from 1996) However, this is also available on-line and searchable at: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/hobsonjobson/ , also on Bibliomania http://www.bibliomania.com/2/3/260/frameset.html (along with some other reference dictionaries - this is a new one to me awaiting exploration) **Incidentally the Veranda(h) question is even more complex as Lewis gives original spellings ass: varanda; baranda; as does Hobson-Jobson, but adds for good measure the following examples : 'feerandah','viranda', 'voranda'. Problems with changing spellings of words largely arise as a result of phonetics and limited literacy - so a literate person(1) scribes what he hears another person (2) say - but person 2 is not only unable to read or write (or spell!) but also has a thick accent from another place. Voila - a new spelling for an old word! While this may account for the v/b dichotomy and variation in vowels, I realise it does not help with the addition of otherwise of a final h. Apologies for waffling on at such length. Sylvia > -----Original Message----- > From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Manaia Alofa > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:30 AM > To: Mandeep Singh Bajwa; india-british-raj@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] V&A Museum Presents: > Maharaja: theSplendour of India's Royal Court > > "Tremendous gratitudes Mandeep, Sylvia, and -H!" > > If I may express my thoughts on your dear comments a little further. > > I truly wish to know what is correct and/or culturally > correct in using 'maharaja' as I am having heated discussions > with family members as well as ones who are married into the > family re certain words of the culture in reality gets > confused/distorted eventually ending up as a new word with > new meaning and new spelling and old/original word(s) become defunct. > .... > > In the Samoan culture the derogatory word for > White-Man/whitey/white-face--I guess if one has imaginary > inclination there can be more--is the Samoan word > "Palagi"=PAH/lahng/knee. > > Recent discussion with my grandmother: > > Gran' why can't I ever find the word 'palagi' in the Samoan > dictionary? > > "Eh? Papalagi? NOT palagi! Manaia. <sigh> Papalagi does not > mean "white man". Papa=paw/paw means chief. Lagi=long/knee > means sky. When Samoans first seen the > colonists/missionaries--I guess--they thought GOD drop from > the sky. That is original meaning for "papalagi". Then it got > shortened because the Samoans... well, shall we say were > "short" with the missionary group. So, today they are known > as 'palagi' not a good word. Remember it is like what > happened with the 'palagi' Margaret Mead. We tell her one > way/one word but we mean for her not to know the Samoan way. > > Grin. My anthropology professor says "I don't doubt what your > grandmother says is not far from the Truth!" > ....

G'day folks A book by Charles Allen, You might like to know that Kipling Sahib: India and the Making of Rudyard Kipling 1865-1900 will be released on 4 September 2008. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

Thanks for this site Harshoo ... > IF, by chance, some of you are not aware that the Imperial > gazetteer of India, [1907 - 1909], contains several grand old > photos of Calcutta (in the chapter on that city), here is the > link to view them online: > > http://www.payer.de/quellenkunde/quellen1603.htm However, I believe that the pictures do not come from the Imp. Gaz.India, but from Montague Massey's book "Recollections of Calcutta for over Half a Century" published in 1919 for the Red Cross. I have just downloaded this from Microsoft's Internet Archive, using the link given on the page above: http://www.archive.org/details/recollectionsofc00massiala . I think the author of the web page has drawn from the Imperial Gazetteer for textual information.It appears that part of the Gazetteer has also been digitised by Microsoft, though for most purposes I think a better place to access this is on the University of Chicago's Digital South Asian Archive: see: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/ (there's lots more to explore as well) Another good resource site for all things South Asian (though distinctly academic) is still SARAI (South Asian Resource Access on the Internet) http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/southasia/cuvl/ Sylvia

Sunday , May 11 , 2008 Cartographer's Calcutta http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080511/jsp/calcutta/story_9248219.jsp --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Saturday, August 9th, 2008 1824 First-Hand Hookah in Calcutta,India http://www.thehookahlounge.org/2008/08/09/1824-first-hand-hookah-in-calcuttaindia/ --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Aug 29th, 2008 Sati, Gender and Colonialism by Nathaniel Mehr (Editor of the London-based online current affairs magazine London Progressive Journal) **** The word Sati itself connotes both the practice of widow self-immolation, and a normative judgement on the dutiful widow herself. ("Sati" means "good woman" in Hindi). Yet the debate on Sati is by no means confined, in its scope, to a discourse on the rights of women, as the historical circumstances in which Sati was finally prohibited - by an Imperial regime in 1829 - have ensured that the issue is also irretrievably intertwined with an essentially colonial discourse. The debate on Sati therefore brings into focus a remarkable diversity of complex relationships and power struggles, requiring an examination of feminist, colonialist and nationalist perspectives. **** [snip] http://subalternstudies.com/?p=526 --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

This goes to prove that the List Admin is a chap who must forever be held in awe ... (GRIN) I take this opportunity to thank everybody who sent me encouraging and congratulatory messages both on and off list. Much appreciated. I'll try to do my best, till John resumes the controls. -- Harshawardhan ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <<<< Bill Stabler wrote: > John - I join Sally in asking, "How do you freeze mango?" I didn't want to get on the wrong side of the new Admin so I only posted my response to Sally.

In a recent message "Vanya Orr" <orrvanya@gmail.com> wrote: > This might be of interest to other people' with Indian roots.. If you > grandparents or great grand parents were born in India and you can get all > thebirth certificates & other documents needed, You can get a card which > confers almost Indian status. You dont need to apply all the time for a visa > & there are business benefits as well. But you have to satisfy the > criteria. Vanya > 2008/8/26 Sylvia Murphy <sylcec@ihug.com.au> Would this also apply to those of european descent? My wife has at least two generations of direct ancestry who were born in India. I can also trace a related line back to John Zephania HOLWELL of 'Black Hole' infamy. -- Dave Keep GMT all year

rEGARDING tHEON WILKINSON, FOUNDER OF b.a.c.s.a. Regarding Theon Wlkinson, founder of the British Associaion for Cemeteries in India, and his wife Rosemary, sadly they have both died fairly recently. I was lucky enough to have the first edition of my book 'Under The Old School Topee' published by that wonderful organisation, and I shall never forget Theon and Rosemary. As far as I know, B.A.C.A. meetings in London continue to take place once a year and a BACSA 'do' is a wonderful way of meeting 'Old Koi Hais' from all walks of British Raj life as well as younger people who work in the independent India of to-day. Needless to say, BACSA members still carry on the good work of visiting British cemeteries in India and assisting in their preservation. Hazel Craig ,

I've been waiting for someone to buy into this question .... > Once again (and again) I come with "simple" questions in > hopes that I may get a "simple" answer. > > All my pre-adolescent and adult livelihood, I've only been > made aware of the spelling "maharajah" never have I seen "maharaja". > > What happened to the "H" at the end? I went to my trusty Hobson-Jobson which is not very helpful as it does not include the word at all!! However it does have RAJA or RAJAH if you prefer - both spellings offered, but the origin is apparently Sanskrit with Raja meaning King. The author notes the degeneration of application to humbler dignitaries, petty chiefs or large Zemindars (the mind boggles as it tries to visualise them lined up together!!!) However, also noted are the various other forms of the word in various vernacular applications: Rai, Rao, Rana, Rawal, Raya (apologies - am not able to apply the accent marks to the vowels). Checked the OED for Maharaja(h) - it prefers the spelling sans h, but allows either. Next? Sylvia

John Feltham wrote: > <snip> > This usually takes me about three of four afternoons to do. > > I have enough to last until the next season which isn't far off. The > mangos are now little balls on the tree outside my house. Lots of them. > Some mango crop! Sounds as if you need a couple of dedicated freezers. It reminds of breakfast on the veranda, starting with huge slices of paw paw (sometimes with honey over), and reaching out over the rail to pluck a lime to squeeze over it. Why, I wonder, in the UK, does one never see a paw paw larger than a dough-nut? Yours Aye Andrew Sellon If the whole of life were as an Olympic game – if we could go on feasting and dancing to the end, - this might do; but it is in truth merely a provision for the little interval between coming into life and settling in it. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's.

G'day Bill, On 28/08/2008, at 9:07 AM, Bill Stabler wrote: > John - I join Sally in asking, "How do you freeze mango?" > Please put us out of our misery! I didn't want to get on the wrong side of the new Admin so I only posted my response to Sally. Here is what I sent. > How do you freeze mangoes please ? Do you need to peel and > slice ..... pulp perhaps ? Just take the the cheeks off and then criss-cross the cheeks with a sharp knife - about half an inch cubes. I then skin the centre and slice off what I can. I then just give the stone a squeeze to get the remainder of the juice and pulp. I use ziploc plastic bags and put in between 250 to 300 grams per bag. And then lying them on their side fill up one the lower freezer boxes This usually takes me about three of four afternoons to do. I have enough to last until the next season which isn't far off. The mangos are now little balls on the tree outside my house. Lots of them. ooroo Bad typists of the word, untie.

>What happened to the "H" at the end?< The answer to this question is: It went out with the British along with Rama, Muttra,Punjaub,Seekhs,Nabob,Ghandi,Partaub,Cashmere and other such gems.<grin> Mandeep On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Manaia Alofa <manaiaalofa@yahoo.com>wrote: > "Thanks! -H" > > Once again (and again) I come with "simple" questions in hopes that I may > get a "simple" answer. > > All my pre-adolescent and adult livelihood, I've only been made aware of > the spelling "maharajah" never have I seen "maharaja". > > What happened to the "H" at the end? > .... > > As I am not a fan of Google I really would like a straight-forward answer > to come from the people of Mughal or those with Mughal experiences or those > who don't give a hoot and would like to share Mughal stories. > > Google has so many "snippets" of so many cultures and so very entertaining. > But when reading my culture it can be "mis-leading", esp. when I'd "lived" > my culture's way of Life. > > So, my thirst for another's culture can be "abrupt?" as I do not have all > the time in the World. > > Is Mughal like that of Royalty of Britain? > > --Manaia > > ++++ > > --- On Wed, 8/27/08, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar <bosham@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > EXHIBITION ANNOUNCEMENT > > > > Victoria & Albert Museum London > > > > 10 October 2009 - 17 January 2010 > > > > The word 'maharaja' (literally 'great > > king') conjures up images of > > fantasy and spectacle. The heyday of the maharajas began in > > > > earnest after the collapse of the Mughal empire in the > > early 18th > > century. > > > > The exhibition will open with this period of chaos and > > adventure > > and will close at the end of British rule in 1947, when > > Indian > > princes acceded their territories into the modern states of > > India > > and Pakistan. > > > > The show will explore the extraordinary culture of princely > > India, > > showcasing rich and varied objects that reflect different > > aspects > > of royal life. The exhibits will include both Indian and > > Western > > works, featuring paintings, photography, textiles and > > dress, > > jewellery, jewelled objects, metalwork and furniture. These > > > > sensational works will be explored within a broader > > historical > > context of princely life and ideals, patronage, court > > culture > > and alliances. > > > > > http://www.designtaxi.com/news.jsp?id=20632&monthview=0&month=8&year=2008 > > > > --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

August 27. 2008 The end of Empire by Hugh Purcell (author of After the Raj: the Last Stayers-On and the Legacy of British India, published by The History Press.) Snipped from http://www.thenational.ae/article/20080828/ART/389281423/-1/NEWS Quote: On my frequent visits to India over the last 40 years, I have often wondered what happened to the Raj - a word used after the British left India in 1947 to stand for the British rule and its legacy. It did not just disappear. On my first visit in 1964 there was still a thriving British commercial community in Calcutta and British planters still dominated the tea gardens. Over the hill stations and former British clubs hung a mist of Raj nostalgia. All that has disappeared, except among enclaves of Anglo-Indians (descendants of a white father and Indian mother) who still yearn for Great Britain, a country they have probably never seen. But you need not look far to find the legacy of the Raj; the Indian heritage industry taps into it, the Indian armed forces keep alive its traditions, the Indian Christian churches sing its hymns, the wonderful Indo-British language still comes up with new words. Above all, there are still a few remarkable survivors living in India connecting the present with the past. They grew up in India, did not go home to Britain when India became independent in 1947, but lived the rest of their lives within the new nation. Now there are probably no more than 50 or so left (excluding Anglo-Indians) out of a population of 1.2 billion. For my book, After the Raj, I tracked down a dozen of them living throughout the country. Three of them, whose combined age amounted to 262, have passed away since I interviewed them. Indians call these men and women who never left the koi hais (meaning "anyone there?") and the women mems, short for memsahibs. A reference book, Hanklyn-Janklin, a dictionary of the Indo-British language written by Nigel Hankin, one of those who stayed on after 1947, says koi hai is "the call with which, in British days, masters were alleged to summon their servants. Hence 'an old koi hai' means a long-term European resident of India." The men and women I interviewed are all associated with the legacy of British rule. I met a boxwallah or two (businessmen), a tea planter, a missionary, a linguist, a tiger hunter and Indian Army officer, a taxidermist, three Anglo-Indians, the famous BBC Indian correspondent Sir Mark Tully, who has lived his life in India, and the manager of a once exclusive British club. Lastly, and fittingly, I met the founder of the British Association of Cemeteries in South Asia, which preserves the records of those who never left, and whose remains are buried in India. Unquote --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

IF, by chance, some of you are not aware that the Imperial gazetteer of India, [1907 - 1909], contains several grand old photos of Calcutta (in the chapter on that city), here is the link to view them online: http://www.payer.de/quellenkunde/quellen1603.htm --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

----- Original Message ----- From: "Manaia Alofa" Once again I come with "simple" questions in hopes that I may get a "simple" answer.All my pre-adolescent and adult livelihood, I've only been made aware of the spelling "maharajah" never have I seen "maharaja". What happened to the "H" at the end? ================================.... I'll answer just one of your questions, Manaia, and wait for the input on other points from our erudite members. As I said while discussing the word bhishti, there were no formal or standardised universal rules of transliteration in those days, and people used to spell a word as they heard it. If that word was more in use, the spelling most commonly favoured was accepted. Maharaja is a Sanskrit word - Maha is big, mighty and raja is king. In India, the letter A is used to denote the sounds of both U(mbrella), and AA (as in baa baa black sheep). We know the difference instinctively, but to the westerners, it was a problem. So they wrote Umbala and not Ambala. Maharaja sounds thus: mu-haa raa-jaa. Now this long aa sound is also written as ah, to show that it is neither the 'u' sound in umbrella or the 'a' sound in bat. So, aa and ah mean the same. Since we cannot send HTML mails to this list, you'll have to be satisfied with this. Otherwise, I'd have shown you the exact symbols and diacritical marks. If you are feeling particularly adventurous, search google books (Full view) for several great works that were written in the 19th century by resident British linguists in India to teach the new arrivals how to speak/write Hindi or Hindustani properly and fluently. They contain all such information with charts and illustrations. --- Harshawardhan

"Tremendous gratitudes Mandeep, Sylvia, and -H!" If I may express my thoughts on your dear comments a little further. I truly wish to know what is correct and/or culturally correct in using 'maharaja' as I am having heated discussions with family members as well as ones who are married into the family re certain words of the culture in reality gets confused/distorted eventually ending up as a new word with new meaning and new spelling and old/original word(s) become defunct. .... In the Samoan culture the derogatory word for White-Man/whitey/white-face--I guess if one has imaginary inclination there can be more--is the Samoan word "Palagi"=PAH/lahng/knee. Recent discussion with my grandmother: Gran' why can't I ever find the word 'palagi' in the Samoan dictionary? "Eh? Papalagi? NOT palagi! Manaia. <sigh> Papalagi does not mean "white man". Papa=paw/paw means chief. Lagi=long/knee means sky. When Samoans first seen the colonists/missionaries--I guess--they thought GOD drop from the sky. That is original meaning for "papalagi". Then it got shortened because the Samoans... well, shall we say were "short" with the missionary group. So, today they are known as 'palagi' not a good word. Remember it is like what happened with the 'palagi' Margaret Mead. We tell her one way/one word but we mean for her not to know the Samoan way. Grin. My anthropology professor says "I don't doubt what your grandmother says is not far from the Truth!" .... Am I to accept it is appropriate/correct for one word used in its original form thousands of years ago and now also can be appropriate/correct used another way hundreds of years young ago today? Nay, I say. Most likely because I am not one to follow. How much of the British Empire is accepted and how much is not today? Is there truly 'like' for their borrowed ways? And the 'borrowed ways' does that make you feel still Indian or British? --Manaia ++++ --- On Thu, 8/28/08, Mandeep Singh Bajwa <msbajwa@airtelmail.in> wrote: > >What happened to the "H" at the end?< > > The answer to this question is: It went out with the > British along with > Rama, Muttra,Punjaub,Seekhs,Nabob,Ghandi,Partaub,Cashmere > and other such > gems.<grin> > > Mandeep

This might be of interest to other people' with Indian roots.. If you grandparents or great grand parents were born in India and you can get all thebirth certificates & other documents needed, You can get a card which confers almost Indian status. You dont need to apply all the time for a visa & there are business benefits as well. But you have to satisfy the criteria. Vanya 2008/8/26 Sylvia Murphy <sylcec@ihug.com.au> > Interested to read Vanya's request and also VERY curious. What on earth is > a PIO Card? Have never heard of such a thing (but then that may not be > surprising as here I am hanging on to the bottom of the world ....) > > I was under the impression that official Baptismal Certificates, and > certainly the certificates produced by the India Office were accepted in > place of birth certificates, where none existed. > > Sylvia > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Vanya Orr > > Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 4:25 AM > > To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] PIO cards > > > > Dear friends have any of you any advice for someone getting a > > PIO (Person of Indian Origin) card§ I have -6 weeks in Uk to > > get one... I am worried that it will take a month to process > > & then I will discover that there is something not right & > > will have to start all over again. It isnt possible to get > > birth certificates for grandparents born in 1866 _--_ just > > church records of christenings,, Is there anyone who can > > pass an eye over documents _ a facilitator, that can help? > > Does such a person exist? I know there are such people for > > visas.... Vanya from Nilgiris & UK > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

John - I join Sally in asking, "How do you freeze mango?" Please put us out of our misery! Bill.

and Exceptions: as in a Scottish officer in Italy in WWII scolding in Punjabi -- "It's a prayer day! & I see you've been smoking tobacco. I will write to all your parents!" (Cdn Sikh undergrad taped his great uncles, several years ago... fascinating stuff & I wish I could locate him now. 'Should be transcribed/published.) Ditto, a student whose relation known as 'Scotch-Anty' observed two religious calendars ... daughter & grand daughter of Indian Army officers, what else. Megan S. Mills PHD198 St Helen'sToronto CDA M6H 4A1 > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 20:23:43 +0530> From: msbajwa@airtelmail.in> To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] {Spam?} Now THIS is nostalgia ...> > I'm sure many Brits enjoyed or at least recognised Holi for what it> was.Masters of course represents the views of that period among a definite> set of people who were likely to take a corporate view of things.I find many> veterans of the Raj surprised to see Sikh, Muslim or Christian officers> leading prayers in Hindu temples in Army units in modern times. In their day> it was unthinkable for British officers to join their troops in their> religious or social activities.1857 had a lot to do with it.> > Anyway Holi's a lot of fun !> > Mandeep> > On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 8:05 PM, John Feltham <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com>wrote:> > > G'day mandeep,> >> > On 28/08/2008, at 12:18 AM, Mandeep Singh Bajwa wrote:> >> > << A capital idea.John Masters wrote in 'Bugles and a Tiger' that Holi> > was> > looked down upon by British officers because of its noisy revelry.It was> > 'not considered quite quite'.> >> > > They took no part in it at all. What great fun they missed out on !> >> > Not all of them - I know of at least one who did! :-)> >> >> >> > ooroo> >> > If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door.> >> > Anon.> >> >> >> >> > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to> > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message> >> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message> >