John - a piece of insightful poetry. "..... traded with the salesman priest ..." ! My impetuosity will catch me out yet again but - I relate and - I like it. Wishes Sally ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> To: "Raj" <INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-L@rootsweb.com> Peccavimus by Ian R Thorpe Saturday, January 08, 2005 Peccavimus (we have sinned)

G'day folks, I posted this to a List of people in the UK, and received this very useful answer. > I don't suppose any of you happen to have a copy of the 18th May 1844 > edition of "Punch" lying around do you? > I’ll have a look in the Doctors waiting room. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

Napier wasn't famous only for his Scinde victory - he is also remembered for his resolute handling of the near-mutinous soldiers way back in 1850, seven years before the general outbreak of rebellion in 1857. Quote: *** In 1849-50 following the annexation of Punjab the Bengal Army was rocked by a series of mutinies, since the allowances for serving in foreign territory, Punjab no longer being foreign territory were abolished. A general rebellion was avoided through careful and resolute handling by Sir Charles Napier the C in C Bengal Army. Sir Charles Napier the C in C India and the C in C Bengal Army saw a Hindustani Mutiny very clearly and warned his countrymen in 1850 that "a mutiny with the sepoys is the most formidable danger menacing our Indian Empire".*** Unquote Snipped from - http://military-security-review.blogspot.com/2007/12/assessment-of-british-indian-military.html AN ASSESSMENT OF BRITISH INDIAN MILITARY RECRUITMENT POLICY IN INDIA - by A.H Amin [Ethnicity, Religion, Military Performance and Political Reliability - British Recruitment Policy and The Indian Army - 1757-1947] Saturday, December 22, 2007 ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Quoting from ''Tehelka Magazine'' Vol 4, Issue 50, Dated Dec 29 , 2007 http://www.tehelka.com/story_main36.asp?filename=hub291207The_Elite.asp *** 'The elite today are the ones who supported the British in 1857' Amaresh Misra's book on 1857 offers startling hypotheses. LAKSHMI INDRASIMHAN talks to him about his findings. *** ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Lynne, Catherine Winkworth earned quite a reputation as a translator of hymns and other books from German into English and was recognized as a notable woman writer of that period along with George Sand, Emily Bronte and others. If you type her name in books.google.com advanced search, you will see her name in hundreds of links. Arvind Kolhatkar, December 22, 2007.

Not to spoil your triumph, gents, but the fact that a woman originated the phrase was pretty much muffled by your cries of joy and chest thumping at its mere discovery!! I count 25 words mentioning this, NOT including Lynne's message. "Tchah!" [Bertie Wooster] Claire B.

She was a very clever, witty little girl.........I wonder what became of her? Cheers, Lynne. :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arvind Kolhatkar" <akolhatkar@rogers.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 3:12 AM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] ''Peccavi''-- found at last !!! > Dear Listers, > > If you enter the search term 'Peccavi' in books.google.com you will > receive hundreds of hits and a few of them refer to the Scinde story of > Ellenborough and Napier. Apparently, the journal called 'Eagle' was aware > in 1918 of the real authorship of the use of this word in the context of > Scinde in Punch. The link to this journal on the third page of > books.google.com has no preview at all, but text of the link itself has > the following brief but adequate content, which I reproduce verbatim: > < > Eagle published 1917 > p. 205 > PECCAVI. "Sir, (To the Editor of The Eagle)...that the ban (sic) mot > (Peccavi) was sent to Punch by her and an acknowledgement received by her > from the Editor... >> > > On the next page of books.google.com is a link to a book called 'Brewer's > Famous Quotations : 5,000 Quotations and the stories behind them' by Nigel > Rees. (I could not see what connection this book has with the well-known > Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, perhaps the author has selected > 5,000 entries from Brewer and researched the stories behind them.) This > book has Limited Preview. P. 369 of the this book gives some more history > of this matter. > > < > Peccavi - I have Sindh. > > 18 May 1844. Punch suggested that Caesar's 'Veni, vidi, vici' was beaten > for brevity by Napier's dispatch to Lord Ellenborough, Peccavi. ODQ > credits the joke to Catherine Winkworth (1827-78). She was a young girl, > so it was sent into Punch on her behalf. She later became a noted > translator of hymns. > > It seems, however, that the supposed remark was soon taken as genuine, > even at Punch itself. On 22 March 1856 the magazine (confusing sender and > receiver in original) included the couplet "Peccavi - I have Scinde" wrote > Lord Ellen, so proud. More briefly, Dalhousie wrote - "Vovi - I have > Oude." >> > > An aside. This also gives an interesting insight into Google's > page-ranking algorithm, about which I had read elsewhere. It appears > rather remarkable that most links about 'Peccavi' that have the > Napier-Scinde connection come near the top of the search results while > several other entries regarding repentance (the real context) come lower > down. How did Google anticipate that I was looking for the Napier-Scinde > connection? Apparently, several queries directed to Google about > 'Peccavi' were for the Napier-Scinde connection. So all such pages have > received more frequent clicks, making them rise higher in the page ranking > and appear near the top. This makes it easy for those looking for the > Napier-Scinde connection get what they want. Conversely, those looking > for other contexts of Peccavi are going to have a harder time to get what > they want! > > Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 21, 2007 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.5/1191 - Release Date: > 12/20/2007 2:14 PM > >

Does anyone out there have an illustration, in any form, of the Catholic Church in Srinagar, Kashmir please? I have a postcard picture of the Church of England one - All Saints Church if anyone is interested. In hope! Happy Christmas Peter D Rogers, Suffolk UK.

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> Now, I wonder who among us can find out this issue of Punch. It must be online somewhere. I searched but could not find it immediately. May need a deeper look. I have this edition in my collection. The reference is on page 209 Vol6, 18 May 1844, and reads: "Foreign Affairs. It is a common idea that the most laconic military dispatch ever issued was that sent by Caesar to the Horse-Guards at Rome, containing the three memorable words "Veni, vidi, vici", and, perhaps until our own day, no like instance of brevity has been found. The dispatch of Sir Charles Napier, after the capture of Scinde, to Lord Ellenborough, both for brevity and truth is, however, far beyond it. The despatch consisted of one emphatic word - "Peccavi", "I have Scinde", (sinned). " Contrary to other reports there is no cartoon or published letter and no other attribution. Best regards John

G'day Harshawardhan, On 21/12/2007, at Friday,Dec21,6:11PM, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar wrote: <<Dear John, I'm full of a great serendipitous joy as I write this, because I think I've quite unexpectedly reached the end of a long journey in search of the origins of the legendary ''Peccavi'' quote, attributed to the hero of the Scinde conquest - Napier. Public reaction to the annexation was reflected by the House of Commons, which postponed for a year the normal vote of thanks to the successful general and by Punch, which gleefully accepted a contribution from a Miss Catherine Winkworth, aged 17, suggesting that Napier's despatch to Ellenborough must have read : ''Peccavi, I have Scinde'' (sinned). [See under Foreign Affairs, Punch, May 18, 1844.] *** Now, I wonder who among us can find out this issue of Punch. It must be online somewhere. I searched but could not find it immediately. May need a deeper look. --- Harshawardhan, grinning like the Cheshire Cat.>> Shabash Harshawardhan! I typed Punch +1844 into Gogle and Google told me that there was some for sale on eBay....but it was but a red herrring..... It will surface soon, I'm sure. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

In a recent message "Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar" <bosham@gmail.com> wrote: > Dear John, I'm full of a great serendipitous joy as I write this, because I > think I've quite unexpectedly reached the end of a long journey in search > of the origins of the legendary ''Peccavi'' quote, attributed to the hero of > the Scinde conquest - Napier. Do you remember we had discussed this > quite at length many moons ago and wondered about the 'truth' of this > 'apocryphal' story? I'm glad to report that I have now found out the source, > and present it to you as my Christmas gift. The only thing that remains now > is to find out the actual (or digitised) copy of the relevant issue of the > Punch. > [snip the rest] I knew that the entry requirements for cadets at the EICS college at Addiscombe contained "...must have acquired a competent knowledge of the English and Latin grammars." (V.C.P. Hodson, Officers of the Bengal Army 1758-1834 p. xxiv) and had read of the exchange of messages. However, I had not realised that the knowledge of latin was to enable 'coded' communication :-) -- Dave Barnett Keep GMT all year

G'day folk,s Just been listening to Joanna Lumly, she was on one of Parkisons shows. Parky: You were a child of the Raj weren't you? JL: I was born in ... [Srinagar - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_Lumley] Parky: Its interesting, we've had quite a few people who had that similar background - in growing up in India. And, it seems to me that it produces a remarkable child, a remarkable person, much more self- sufficient, resilient, with a different kind of approach to life than any other people. It is discernible. JL: It is. Parky: Very much so. JL: I wonder if how much of it is to do with traveling which was immense because you never flew anywhere in those days. You always went on long boat journeys. And lots of time on your own. So, time for mucking about, you always had the great benefit of hearing different languages spoken fluently by people who were of that of that language. Of understanding and hearing the different religions you know, the muezzin calling the, their temple bells, you had a sense of a larger world. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

Dear John, I'm full of a great serendipitous joy as I write this, because I think I've quite unexpectedly reached the end of a long journey in search of the origins of the legendary ''Peccavi'' quote, attributed to the hero of the Scinde conquest - Napier. Do you remember we had discussed this quite at length many moons ago and wondered about the 'truth' of this 'apocryphal' story? I'm glad to report that I have now found out the source, and present it to you as my Christmas gift. The only thing that remains now is to find out the actual (or digitised) copy of the relevant issue of the Punch. No point in telling you how I accidently stumbled upon this last night, while reading a book I'd recently purchased at a used-books sale. I almost felt like shouting Eureka - although I was not in the tub, but on my bed and fully dressed in my pyjama-suit. :) OK, so here is the low-down, according to the book I was reading: *** Sind, the territory lying between the Punjab and the sea, was annexed in 1843 by Lord Ellenborough, Sir Henry Hardinge's predecessor as Governor-General; this gave Britain control of the Indus, and an important buffer against possible Moslem invasion from the North-West. It was a cynical piece of work, in which Ellenborough goaded the Sind Amirs by forcing an unacceptable treaty on them; when this provoked an attack by the Baluchi warriers, Sir Charles Napier promptly conquered the country, winning the battles of Miani and Hyderabad. Public reaction to the annexation was reflected by the House of Commons, which postponed for a year the normal vote of thanks to the successful general and by Punch, which gleefully accepted a contribution from a Miss Catherine Winkworth, aged 17, suggesting that Napier's despatch to Ellenborough must have read : ''Peccavi, I have Scinde'' (sinned). [See under Foreign Affairs, Punch, May 18, 1844.] *** Now, I wonder who among us can find out this issue of Punch. It must be online somewhere. I searched but could not find it immediately. May need a deeper look. --- Harshawardhan, grinning like the Cheshire Cat. ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Dear Listers, If you enter the search term 'Peccavi' in books.google.com you will receive hundreds of hits and a few of them refer to the Scinde story of Ellenborough and Napier. Apparently, the journal called 'Eagle' was aware in 1918 of the real authorship of the use of this word in the context of Scinde in Punch. The link to this journal on the third page of books.google.com has no preview at all, but text of the link itself has the following brief but adequate content, which I reproduce verbatim: < Eagle published 1917 p. 205 PECCAVI. "Sir, (To the Editor of The Eagle)...that the ban (sic) mot (Peccavi) was sent to Punch by her and an acknowledgement received by her from the Editor... > On the next page of books.google.com is a link to a book called 'Brewer's Famous Quotations : 5,000 Quotations and the stories behind them' by Nigel Rees. (I could not see what connection this book has with the well-known Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, perhaps the author has selected 5,000 entries from Brewer and researched the stories behind them.) This book has Limited Preview. P. 369 of the this book gives some more history of this matter. < Peccavi - I have Sindh. 18 May 1844. Punch suggested that Caesar's 'Veni, vidi, vici' was beaten for brevity by Napier's dispatch to Lord Ellenborough, Peccavi. ODQ credits the joke to Catherine Winkworth (1827-78). She was a young girl, so it was sent into Punch on her behalf. She later became a noted translator of hymns. It seems, however, that the supposed remark was soon taken as genuine, even at Punch itself. On 22 March 1856 the magazine (confusing sender and receiver in original) included the couplet "Peccavi - I have Scinde" wrote Lord Ellen, so proud. More briefly, Dalhousie wrote - "Vovi - I have Oude." > An aside. This also gives an interesting insight into Google's page-ranking algorithm, about which I had read elsewhere. It appears rather remarkable that most links about 'Peccavi' that have the Napier-Scinde connection come near the top of the search results while several other entries regarding repentance (the real context) come lower down. How did Google anticipate that I was looking for the Napier-Scinde connection? Apparently, several queries directed to Google about 'Peccavi' were for the Napier-Scinde connection. So all such pages have received more frequent clicks, making them rise higher in the page ranking and appear near the top. This makes it easy for those looking for the Napier-Scinde connection get what they want. Conversely, those looking for other contexts of Peccavi are going to have a harder time to get what they want! Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 21, 2007

Friday, December 14, 2007 RETHINKING THE DAYS OF TURBULENCE The Great Partition: The MAKING of India And Pakistan By Yasmin Khan Viking Rs 495 http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071214/asp/opinion/story_8660646.asp ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

This is a copy of a message that I sent to the INDIA-L list: In my earlier listing (11 November 2007) of my ggf John Daniel Harvey, I wrote that he lived in Ferozepore, Assam. The baptism records for his son (Ashley Edwin Dunbar Harvey 1873-1941) indicate that it was not Ferozepore, Assam but FERZEPORE, ASSAM. I presumed that there had been a mistake in transcription. My difficulty is that (using Google) I cannot find Ferzepore, Assam and Google suggests Ferozepore, which is in the Punjab. Is (or was) there such a place as Ferzepore, Assam? I understand that Ferozepore means 'no place.' Am I right? I also notice that my heading was John Daniel Harvey - last half of eighteenth century; it should, of course, have been John Daniel Harvey - last half of nineteenth century. Apologies to fellow listers. For information, this is a recent message that I had from Lawrie Butler: I checked Bengal reference N/1/205/9 which was an Adult Baptism at St James Ch., Calcutta.Bapt 11 Sep 1888, born 18 May 1873 Ashley Edwin Dunbar HARVEY son of John Daniel & Dina Matilda Harvey of Ferzepore, Assam; Superintendent, Deputy Commissioner's Office; Walter Kitchin, Chaplin. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, (Baffled) Mike Richards

Dear Listers, I just saw a recent Indian movie called 'Chuk De India' and recommend it to the List. It is about a rag-tag team of women field hockey players selected to represent India in a world series. Nobody, from the sports administrators to the players themselves, believes that they have any chance to shine. Kabir Khan, played by the actor Shah Rukh Khan, is a one-time captain of the Indian Men's team. He has been driven out of the game because several years ago in a crucial India-Pakistan match he lost a penalty stroke and the match and was suspected of secretly helping Pakistan. Kabir Khan takes up the position of the coach of the Women's team because there is no other taker for it. Under his sometimes harsh but inspired training the Indian team wins the world championship, after defeating strong teams like the Australian and the English. The upper layer of the subtext of the film is that Indian women are capable of doing anything that men can do. At a deeper layer the film says that if Indians rise above their petty personal ambitions and myriad internal divisions, which were the cause of India's historic downfall and its colonial past, India can stand up against any other power in the world as an equal. The film reflects the growing confidence of India as a strong nation on the world stage. Happily, though the film is made for the entertainment of the general masses, it is entirely free of the usual commercially inspired cant and stereotypes of characters and concentrates only on the task in hand! The DVD that I saw had English, French and German subtitles. The title 'Chuk De India' initially made no sense to me. I found from the internet that 'Chuk De' is a colloquial Punjabi expression meaning 'Cheer Up'. Another recent good Indian movie is 'Gandhi My Father'. It tells the little known story of one of Gandhiji's sons, Harilal. Overshadowed by his father, he goes from one failure in life towards another, causes immense anguish to his parents and dies a destitute's death in Bombay a few days after Gandhiji falls to the assassin's bullet. It is an excellent film and treats both Gandhiji and Harilal with sympathy. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 10, 2007.

An interesting lookback on German strategy during WW II. Many photos. By SGM Herbert A. Friedman (Ret.) ** The Germans prepared a number of leaflets against the Indian troops of the British Army reminding them of their persecution at home and telling them of the Indian troops who had come over to the Axis in an attempt to win their independence. The leaflets are not particularly colorful although some have attractive images. Many are simply text in the various languages of the Indian subcontinent. ** http://www.psywarrior.com/AxisPropIndia.html ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India