Hi List I have wondering if any body know of the family of S N Gupta, a student of A Tagore, and later the Principal of the Mayo School of Art until 1942/0. He also wrote the Catalogue of Lahore Museum in 1922. His father was also the editor, of daily Tribune in Lahore, during that time. If any body has any information on his family/friends, who can shed more light on his later life, I will be grateful. best regards Nadeem Omar

Quote **** Often mission historiography does not refer to the Protestant missionary work in India, especially in Calcutta before the arrival of William Carey in November 1793. Even the recently published Journal and Selected Letters of William Carey seems to think of Carey as the founder of Protestant mission/church in India. With all due respect and recognition to what Carey had accomplished, it must be emphasized that he was not the first Protestant missionary pioneer in India. For the sake of historical accuracy and more truthful mission historiography, the following is mentioned. Almost 150 years before Carey's arrival in Calcutta the Dutch missionary Abraham Roger, who had spent ten years (1631-1641) among the Tamils in the Dutch colony of Pulicat near Madras, published his famous work entitled Open Door to the Hidden Heathendom (1651). His fellow countryman Philip Baldaeus (1632-1671) spent two year in the Dutch colony of Nagapatnam (1660-1662), not far from the Danish colony Tranquebar. Baldaeus's famous work entitled A true and exact description of the most celebrated East-India coast of Malabar and Coromandel (1672) shows his interest in religious traditions of Tamils and Sri Lankans. Both of them had interpreters to gather religious information. Baldaeus was also interested in missionary work. However, his time in India was too short. Carey knew about the ministry of the Dutch missionaries and of Ziegenbalg in South India. His reference to Ziegenbalg is important because the Tranquebar Mission helped Carey to perceive his work in India in proper context. He knew that he was not the founder of the Protestant mission in India. **** Unquote (snip) http://www.missionstudies.org/rescue/jeyaraj.htm ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Here is another webpage on Calcutta's earlier history: http://sankalpa.tripod.com/roots/s1calroots.html ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" As I understand it, the present "Maidan" in Calcutta is part of what is left of the 'Mahratta Ditch'.

In a message dated 16/03/2008 23:53:58 GMT Standard Time, wulguru.wantok@gmail.com writes: G'day folks, Anyone with an answer, please direct it to "Edward" with a copy to The Raj , of course. Begin forwarded message: From: "edwardplayfair" <edwardplayfair@yahoo.com> Date: 17 March 2008 5:51:06 AM To: SAGongs@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SAGongs] Did Germans (Hanoverians?) serve in the HEIC forces in early 19th century Reply-To: SAGongs@yahoogroups.com I've been doing some research into Dum Dum and the Bengal Artillery in the 1820s and 1830s and have come across a Cooper Sergeant William Zeiter (who enlisted in London) and a Sergeant-Major J. Otto. Neither sound like your average British NCO, but can anyone confirm that Germans (would they be likely to be Hanoverians?) regularly served in the HEIC forces of the late Georgian period? Many thanks, Edward Playfair Yes, I have sent Edward an attachment concerning the 15th Hanovarian Regiment which landed in Madras in 1782 with the 78th Seaforth Highland Foot Regiment. I will be happy to send the same attachment to anyone else, if they contact me directly. Joan Brown

G'day folks, Anyone with an answer, please direct it to "Edward" with a copy to The Raj , of course. Begin forwarded message: From: "edwardplayfair" <edwardplayfair@yahoo.com> Date: 17 March 2008 5:51:06 AM To: SAGongs@yahoogroups.com Subject: [SAGongs] Did Germans (Hanoverians?) serve in the HEIC forces in early 19th century Reply-To: SAGongs@yahoogroups.com I've been doing some research into Dum Dum and the Bengal Artillery in the 1820s and 1830s and have come across a Cooper Sergeant William Zeiter (who enlisted in London) and a Sergeant-Major J. Otto. Neither sound like your average British NCO, but can anyone confirm that Germans (would they be likely to be Hanoverians?) regularly served in the HEIC forces of the late Georgian period? Many thanks, Edward Playfair __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1)Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe RECENT ACTIVITY 1 New Members Visit Your Group Moderator Central Yahoo! Groups Join and receive produce updates. Share Photos Put your favorite photos and more online. Yahoo! Groups Home Improvement Learn and share do-it-yourself tips. . __,_._,___ ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

Dear List, I would just like to say a BIG THANK YOU to this list for being so helpful in assisting me finding my MILLETT & CLAY & ORAM & BOBB families. The other India list so far has not responded. Do not what I am doing wrong, however I posted the exactly the same stuff I emailed you wonderful people. Thank you again. Glynis MILLETT-CLAY SOUTH AFRICA.

G'day Harshawardhan, On 16/03/2008, at 5:28 PM, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar wrote: <<Here is a nicely presented website on Calcutta - something our leader John as well as Molly and many others might like to see: http://cityofpalaces.tripod.com/ By the way, did you know that at one time during the Company Rule, Calcutta was disparagingly known as The Ditch? Here is the reason: the nickname was derived from the term ''Mahratta Ditch''. While searching my Hobson-Jobson for something, I came across the entry for ''Mahratta Ditch'' in Calcutta - a defensive moat built in 1742, which almost corresponded with the Cicular Road of the later era.>> A nice story. As I understand it, the present "Maidan" in Calcutta is part of what is left of the 'Mahratta Ditch'. The ditch was constructed whilst Calcutta was still relatively new. Some 'native house' were/had to be removed in order to give the cannons of Fort William a clear view of the enemy. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.

Dear Listers, The Mahratta Ditch is the Lower Circular Road, now called Acharya Jagadish Chandra Basu Marg or AJC Basu Marg. One of my forebears, Bhaskar Ram Kolhatkar, aka Bhaskar Pandit as he was a Brahmin, was the chief lieutenant of Raghuji Bhosle in the affairs of Bengal in the 1740's. He went into Bengal several times to collect the chauth and the sardedshmukhi (one fourth and one tenth parts of the revenues respectively) for which the Marathas had received sanads from the Mughal emperor in Delhi. Of course, the Mughal emperors themselves had become weak by then and their nominal subordinates in far-off provinces would avoid doing what they were asked to do by the master in Delhi. The collection could be effected only through use of strong arm methods, which made the Marathas extremely unpopular among the Bengali population. Aliverdi Khan invited Bhaskar Ram for a meeting to negotiate over the Maratha demands. Bhaskar Ram with 11 assistants went to the appointed place. After the entered the tent, Aliverdi Khan had the ropes cut and Bhaskar Ram and his associates were cut down to the last man. This happened in 1744. This incident has been made the subject of poems and romances in Bengali literature. There was a play on the Bengali stage in 1923 in which Bhaskar Pandit was cast as a noble and resolute but tragic hero - no doubt reflective of the Hindu-Muslim division of the society that had become a part of the life in India by that time. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, March 16, 2008.

Oh, oh -- I think I made a bloomer. I didn't make myself clear when I wrote the following: **** The natives had sought and obtained the Company's permission to construct this ditch at their own expense, so that they could protect themselves from Mahratta looters. ***** (see my previous mail on this topic.) What really happened was like this: in 1742, Meer Habib joined hands with the invading Mahratta forces led by Bhaskar Rao and together they began to systematically destroy the Bengal countryside. Thereupon, the ''wretched inhabitants (locals) crowded into the foreign factories, and more especially to Calcutta, for protection from this storm, and the President [of the English factory] got permission of the Nabob to surround the Mahratta Company's territory with an intrenchment.'' THIS was the Ditch. NOW it is OK. Sorry for the confusion. ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Here is a nicely presented website on Calcutta - something our leader John as well as Molly and many others might like to see: http://cityofpalaces.tripod.com/ By the way, did you know that at one time during the Company Rule, Calcutta was disparagingly known as The Ditch? Here is the reason: the nickname was derived from the term ''Mahratta Ditch''. While searching my Hobson-Jobson for something, I came across the entry for ''Mahratta Ditch'' in Calcutta - a defensive moat built in 1742, which almost corresponded with the Cicular Road of the later era. The natives had sought and obtained the Company's permission to construct this ditch at their own expense, so that they could protect themselves from Mahratta looters. The name itself is a dubious testimony to the awe and dread created among the hapless Bengali baboos of Kolkaataa by the then almighty army of the Mahratta (Maratha) kings of NAGPUR - Nagpore. Yes, for ten years in a row, the Bhonsala kings of Nagpur (related to the Bhonsalas of Poona) had let loose a reign of terror on the eastern and south-eastern portion of the land between Nagpur in central India and Calcutta. Every year powerful bands of their armed warriors rode up to Calcutta, and like a cat among the pigeons killed hundreds of the locals, and looted, ransacked, stripped their lands bare. The Nagpur gangs had become so strong that the Bengalis had even stopped to offer any token resistance. The ''Mahratta Ditch'' was but a feeble attempt to keep them at bay - if possible. (Kind of a last-ditch attempt?) Those Maratha marauders were called 'Baar-geers or bargees'' and EVEN TODAY rural mothers in Orissa and Bengal invoke their name to quieten a particularly fractious child. ''Keep quiet or the bargees would come and take you away'', they say. Today, of course, the Marathas are no longer a force to reckon with in federal politics. Even in Nagpur, nobody remembers those dark deeds of their ancestors. Young children don't know that our city was once the seat of a mighty kingdom. Sic transit gloria mundi, eh? See also http://cityofpalaces.tripod.com/history.htm and http://cityofpalaces.tripod.com/history2.htm ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Somewhat sweeping to claim that the '"indifference" of Lord Dalhousie to Indian cultural and religious traditions , pre 1857, was responsible for the demise of the British Empire, 90 years later -' ( I paraphrase) ................ not to mention of course two world wars and the post war British move to the Left - or the post war pressure of the rising American Empire, ( only recently free of debt to USA incurred during WW2). A pity such wild over simplifiaction ( which may have sounded brave in the smoky junior common room of SOAS circa 1960, or perhaps some Calcutta coffee house) is allowed to mar an otherwise interesting site. At 03:28 AM 16/03/2008, you wrote: >Here is a nicely presented website on Calcutta - something our >leader John as well as Molly and many others might like to see: >http://cityofpalaces.tripod.com/

Thanks, Ali for the information.I thought the Guides and other Piffer (Punjab Irregular Frontier Force) units were raised from the remnants of the Sikh armies after their defeat in the First Anglo-Sikh War.While their Pathans could've been from Mardan and other Frontier areas, the Sikhs, Punjabi Mussalmans and Dogras would've been from areas falling in Punjab.Inany case recruitment would've been well nigh impossible from the inner city areas of Lahore or any other city. Your brother in law ? The same gentleman who commanded the President's Body Guard at one time ? Mandeep On 15/03/2008, Ali Khan <salem@comsats.net.pk> wrote: > > > According to my brother in law who commanded Guides Cavalry, as did his > father, Guides was raised as two troops of Cavalry and two companies of > Infantry, in 1846. It was known as the Corps of Guides and according to my > source, it consisted of all the ruffians and badmashes of the Mardan area. > Lt.Harry Lumsden was the founder. The numbers of the units given in the > article are not correct. Guides usually recruited in the Mardan area of > the > Nothwest frontier. Mardan is considered to be the Wild West of the region. > It > seems unlikely that so many of the Guides soldiers were from the inner > Lahore > city. The actual narrative of the fighting in Kabul is accurate.Perhapsthese > soldiers were in a different unit which fought in some other action on the > Frontier, of which there were many > Ali > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

According to my brother in law who commanded Guides Cavalry, as did his father, Guides was raised as two troops of Cavalry and two companies of Infantry, in 1846. It was known as the Corps of Guides and according to my source, it consisted of all the ruffians and badmashes of the Mardan area. Lt.Harry Lumsden was the founder. The numbers of the units given in the article are not correct. Guides usually recruited in the Mardan area of the Nothwest frontier. Mardan is considered to be the Wild West of the region. It seems unlikely that so many of the Guides soldiers were from the inner Lahore city. The actual narrative of the fighting in Kabul is accurate.Perhaps these soldiers were in a different unit which fought in some other action on the Frontier, of which there were many Ali

Further to my previous mail on civilian camp followers, I think I should also mention this: the lot of these hangers-on and tagalong dependants was not always a help to an army. One of the most moving descriptions of the plight of the camp followers when the army is retreating in haste for some reason, can be found in the George MacDonald Fraser's first Flashman book, ''Flashman''. This narration is in turn based on the real-life journal maintained by the redoubtable Lady Sales. (This journal is online at Google books, full view.) A Journal of the Disasters in Affghanistan, 1841-2 By Florentia Wynch Sale http://books.google.com/books?id=uXYIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=lady+sale&as_brr=1 During the First Afghanistan War in 1842, a British force of 4,500 troops, accompanied by roughly 10,000 camp followers, began the long and arduous retreat from Kabul. Seven days later a lone horseman, Surgeon William Brydon, reached the walls of the British garrison at Jellalabad, some 60 miles east of Kabul, as the crow flies. The account of the retreat is one of suffering and heroism. http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm Also see : Camp followers (Pindaris) with the Maratha armies - http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9060068/Pindari#258440.hook The Pindaris followed the Maratha bands who raided Mughal territory from the late 17th century. With the collapse of the Mughal empire in the 18th century, these camp followers organized themselves into groups, each usually attached to one of the leading Maratha chiefs. [Main entry - http://www.britannica.com/eb/topic-363851/Maratha ] The Pindaris later became a headache as their strength grew and it was left to the Britons like M. Elphinstone (who was stationed in Nagpur in the 1820s) to vanquish them effectively. Then we have this: Civilians in battle: Camp followers often fulfilled valuable roles during campaign, and were susceptible to attack during or after a battle. Braddock sent the camp followers back in 1755, mainly as they were slowing his progress. As the baggage train was destroyed during the battle, his actions probably saved many of the women who were following their husbands into battle. It is difficult to judge how many women and children were killed in the aftermath of battles during the French and Indian War, as they were not included in the official counts and casualty reports. When the battle was a siege, of course, it was much more difficult to protect the camp followers after the fall or surrender, of a fort or settlement. Even when an agreement laying out the terms of surrender had been made, commanders could not always force all their troops to comply with the terms. The aftermath of Fort William Henry in 1757 is the most infamous incident of this type, when militia and allied American Indians, possibly drunk on captured rum, massacred all the camp followers as they marched out of the fort. [Empires Collide The French and Indian War 1754-63] http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=T2199~per=12~view=extract The modern era -- Armies have always had civilians along, to perform support functions. The historical term is "camp followers." In times past, the ratio of civilians to soldiers was often much higher, like eight civilians for every one soldier. Only the most disciplined armies (like the ancient Romans at their peak), kept the ratio closer to one to one. But when conscript armies became common in the 19th century, it was suddenly cheaper to replace many of those civilians with conscripts (who were paid a nominal wage.) Now that armies are going all-volunteer, it's gone back to the old days, where it's cheaper to have civilians perform a lot of support jobs. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htatrit/articles/20070523.aspx Finally, we have this mail by Kerrie sent to the INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-L on 18 Feb 2005: It was the capture of Madras by the French in 1746 and of Calcutta in 1756, which led to the influx of soldiers, both Company's and Royal troops and with them of European women and camp followers. The 39th Foot (The Dorset Regiment) had formed part of Clive's small force of 3,000 Europeans and sepoys; by 1790 there were 6,000 Regulars under the Company's command. They would remember Clive also for the Military Fund he set up in 1770 for the widows of officers and men who lost their lives in the service of the Army in India. http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ/2005-02/1108773547 ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

Dear Listers, Some more info has become available after Harshawardhan's and my mail about the Ghadr Movement and Dr. P.S.Khankhoje, a member. His days a student in the Oregon Agricultural College in around 1909-12. http://www.oregonmm.org/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=50&Itemid=48 http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft567nb3f6&doc.view=content&chunk.id=d0e11034&toc.depth=1&anchor.id=0&brand=eschol http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jjannink/Teaching/SusAg600_Spr2006/MatchettMexicoUSAMaizeImprovement.pdf About the Ghadr Movement and the unsympathetic attitude of the American authorities towards it. http://www.overseasindian.in/2006/oct/news/11media3.shtml This contains a reference to Khankhoje and his attempts to acquire military training at the Tamalpais Military Academy. Khankhoje remembered in a speech by the President of India http://presidentofindia.nic.in/bqsp100907.html More info on P.S.Khankhoje at http://www.arteenchicago.com/shanti.html, a website about his granddaughter, who lives in Chicago. Here we learn that the British tried to have him extradited to India but the Mexican Government refused the request. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, March 14, 2008.

This seems a tenuous claim at best.While the Guides Cavalry and Guides Infantry exist even to this day, these Regiments never used the numbers indicated.Nor were they ever associated with Lahore.And I don't recall the British ever recruiting soldiers for fighting regiments from the urban areas.Recruits always came from villages. Mandeep Singh Bajwa Chandigarh India ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar" <bosham@gmail.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 8:41 PM Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Lahore Nama > Snipped from > http://lahorenama.wordpress.com/2008/03/10/lahore-lahore-aye-maaut-maaut-aye/ > > March 10, 2008 > > 'Lahore Lahore Aye, Maaut Maaut Aye' > > Quote *** They belonged to different mohallahs of the old walled city > of Lahore. In one fateful day, on the Third of September, 1879, the city > lost 41 sons out of 69 killed. Their great grand children, now old men > in their eighties, remember the respect they once commanded. They had > a nameplate outside Mohallah Qassaban, inside Delhi Gate, that was > removed in the 1920s after Jallianwala. They were the cannon fodder > of the British Empire, unsung, forgotten, the ones who never came back. > > The story of the 41 soldiers belonging to the old walled city out of the > 69 Indians who never returned from Kabul in 1879 was told for years. > The (Kabul) Residency was set up in July 1879, and a small detachment > of cavalry and infantry belonging to the 21 Guides Cavalry and 48 Guides > Infantry, elite regiments belonging to Lahore, were sent as a security > measure. > > On the 3rd September 1879, without warning, Afghan soldiers attacked > the Residency and were joined by almost the entire civilian population > of Kabul. *** Unquote > > ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > Nagpur, India > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Friday, Mar 14, 2008 LONDON: Tens of thousands of Indian nationals living in Britain may be stripped of their traditional right to vote and to contest in British elections under plans to radically revamp the country's citizenship regime. Ancestry" visas off The proposal comes amid protests over plans to discontinue "ancestry" visas for citizens of Commonwealth countries such as New Zealand and South Africa as part of a shake-up of immigration laws. [snip] http://www.hindu.com/2008/03/14/stories/2008031455961400.htm ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

<<<<<< I doubt if a Pakistani propaganda site can be trusted to do an impartial analysis of Gandhi's life, work and legacy. ---- Mandeep Singh Bajwa > http://rupeenews.com/2008/03/08/the-unknown-gandhi-his-military-service-debunking-the-movie-shedding-light-on-support-for-colonialism-empire-racism-and-hindu-religious-dogma/ ======================================================== Mandeep, it's simply another point of view - not necessarily true or accurate in every respect. There are thousands of Indians who also don't rate Gandhi too highly. The Hindu Mahasabha-wallahs, for instance. One of their card-holder members was a famous Marathi author of yesteryears - the late Pu Bhaa Bhaaway (P B Bhave). He never missed a chance to denigrate Gandhi. He was a fiery orator and rather scurrilous journalist. He used to blame Gandhi with a passion for the partition of India and wrote columns against him, between 1940 and 50. One of Bhave's famous pieces of those times is entitled ''Sahdevaa, jaraa agni aan'' (Sahdev, bring some fire). It's a literary masterpiece -- ostensibly, a lament. Yudhi'sh'thir, the first of the five Pandav brothers (from the epic Mahabharat), asks his younger brother Sahadev to bring him some fire, so that he (Yudhi'sh'thir) can burn alive the impotent and helpless seniors and elderly relatives like Bhi'shm, who had watched without protest the attempt to forcibly disrobe (''vastra-haran'') Draupadi (wife of the Pandav bothers - it was a polyandrous marriage) by Du'shaasan (one of the 100 Kaurav brothers - paternal cousins of the Pandavas) at the Royal Court in broad daylight and in front of the King himself and hundreds of his cowardly courtiers. He also wants to burn Du'shaasan's hands for touching Draupadi's saree. Bhave masterfully used this ancient episode as an extended metaphor or allegory to denounce Gandhi for being a mute spectator while India was being partitioned. In an editorial around the same time, for his journal ''Aadesh'', he lampooned Gandhi as a senile sex-starved pseudo-saint who ''everyday roams naked in the comapny of two naked young girls to see how much control he has over his sexual instincts'' (as he was just then experimenting with self-imposed celebacy). Bhave said he wasn't against the experiment per se. But he objected to its timing. It was shortly after 15 August 1947, Bengal was burning, but instead of using his influence to pacify the riotous mobs, Gandhi was indulging in this senseless, untimely experiment - and what's more, gloating over it in public, according to Bhave. Well, what I'm saying is, all this is old stuff. So let's just be objective, and hear the other side also (''audi alteram partem'', as we lawyers say). The other side may not be true or correct, but let's leave it at that. After all, all this is in hindsight, and whatever is said, it doesn't have to affect our own opinion or point of view. I think, to someone like me - born in independent India and years after Gandhi's death, this seems to be the ideal way to understand history. ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India

> Quote: > > *** The year is 1857 and the First Indian Rebellion is at its > full force. This blog will transport you back 150 years and > give you a daily update on the state of the Uprising. Fully > supported by the authentic drawings from the same era and > enhanced by the modern multimedia tools. *** > > Unquote > > http://www.1857mutiny.com/ > It is quite an attractive site with some great ideas. Having said that they have rather pillaged my own pages on the Mutiny without any accreditation or recognition. I don't really mind people borrowing and using out of copyright images that I myself have used, but it would be nice to be asked. It is an interesting idea to approach a historical event in this blog format, so do go and take a look at it. Stephen Luscombe stephen@britishempire.co.uk http://www.britishempire.co.uk

A new online book (with multiple references to the British presence in that city): Culture and Power in Banaras Community, Performance, and Environment, 1800-1980 Edited by Sandria B. Freitag UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS Berkeley · Los Angeles · Oxford http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?docId=ft6p3007sk&chunk.id=0&doc.view=print ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India