To members of the RAJ List - I should have sent my request to this List rather than the India List which is in the main, for people chasing their genealogy. The email below was sent to another List got up by John F and which concerns our two schools vis Dow Hill and Victoria. Sally Stewart > Hello ! > > I so thoroughly enjoyed the following account. I hope you will too. I > wrote to Moira expressing my appreciation and saying that I hoped with, > co-operation from other people, to compile a collection of train travel > experiences from those of us who 'enjoyed' the magic of steam train travel > in India of the years mentioned in the subject heading. > > Moira was gracious in her response and said that I could use her little > story explaining that she travelled third class because her mother, a > single > parent, earned a very modest income as a teacher in 'those' days. Moira > now > lives in the USA. I hope to glean more train stories from her. > > I hope very much that I'll get more responses as those of our generation > which fit the period, are 'er .... still taking journeys - one way (!) and > the opportunity to record our rather unique experiences will be lost. > > Any little yarn submitted can be edited and returned to you for final > approval so that your own unique style will be, in the main, retained. > P.S Those of us who used the Darjeeling Hill Rly will each remember their > own and unique > response to the same journey taken and it WILL be of interest. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Moira Breen" <moirabreen@sbcglobal.net> > To: "India" <india@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 7:50 AM > Subject: [INDIA] Train Travel in India in the 20's, 30's and 40's > > >> The South Indian railway had 4 classes! First, second, intermediate and >> third. As school children we travelled together in groups of 20 escorted >> by one woman in an enormous third class compartment. It had wooden >> benches >> and lots of room for all of us. We left Madras in the evening and sat up >> all night; next morning we were given a sandwich by our escort before the >> train arrived in Mettapalyam where we transferred to small compartrments >> in the little hill train, now considered one of the wonders of the world. >> Three hours later and over 7000 feet high, we were in Lovedale and all >> the school children tumbled out of the little carriages with our small >> suitcases and walked up the hill to to the school hospital where we were >> examined by the school doctor and nurses to make sure we did not have >> scabies or lice and then allowed to proceed to our schools - girls and >> boys being housed separately. The matron met us in school where we were >> given clean clothes and hot baths. Ten >> months later we went home ands the reverse took place. Again we had a >> sole >> woman escort and a group of about 20 children. >> As a young woman and adult I often travelled alone on the Indian >> railways >> and always third class. On each train there was just one woman's third >> class compartment - which was clearly marked showing an Indian woman in >> Indian headress. The rest of the third class carriages were for men. >> Second and First class carriages were few in number. Whole families >> travelled together going to a fair or festival or a family wedding. While >> waiting for the train, muslim women would be covered completely from head >> to toe in a white bourka which had slits for their eyes. All the women >> and >> children and the baggage would be put into the one woman's compartment on >> the train where we were packed like sardines. The men of the family >> would >> make sure their women and children were safe and then they went to the >> bigger men's compartments where they sat in comfort - no babies and no >> baggage. But when the train stopped at the next station, they would come >> to check on their women-folkd and children >> in the women's compartment. As soon as the train left the station, off >> came the white bourkas and I would see the women dressed in gorgeous >> Indian costume, and wearing the most exquisite jewellery - necklaces and >> bangles . Hindu women did not wear the bourka. If I was on an overnight >> trip from Madras to Banagalore, I sometimes was able to clamber up onto >> the luggage compartment and spend the night there overlooking the >> crowded >> passengers on the seats below. If I was on a short trip of a couple of >> hours, I often went into the third class carriage - for both men and >> women - as there was much more room and I sat with the men who were >> always very polite.But no Indian woman would be in the compartment with >> the men. >> I often wonder why the South Indian Railway only had one woman's >> compartment on the whole train as it was always crowded, with women, >> children, babies and baggage. Of course there was no air-conditioning and >> no fans! >> Moira Breen >> USA
Someone on the List, had inquired about American bases in India. The link below will be quite helpful in their research. _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Burma_India_Theater_of_World_War_II_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Burma_India_Theater_of_World_War_II) Charles Dique ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)
Esther wrote: > Does anyone have information on the American army bases in India working > for > the British Military during the British Raj? Were there American army > based > in Allahabad, Chunar and Dum Dum in Calcutta. Were there more of them in > India during the British raj all working for and with the Brtish Military. I understand that today's Chennai Internation Airport was formerly an airfield constructed by the U.S. forces during WW2. This is right alongside St. Thomas' Mount which was a very significant Indian Army station. I imagine that a few American soldiers were based there too. Good Hunting! Peter Bailey Chairman Families in British India Society www.fibis.org
BISN - of course! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 9:53 PM Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Tales from the Raj >From another List. I recall a tale told about a gharri horse in Calcutta. A group of E/Os (who else!) were walking back to their ship berthed in Kidderpore Dock when they spied a lone gharri (Victoria) parked up with the gharri wallah asleep and the horse munching hay. They unlimbered the horse, led it to the gate, through the gate, back to the vicinity of the gharri. The horse was then reconnected to the gharri with the forks through the fence. All this without the gharri wallah waking up. Regrettably, the tale does not include the outcome once the gharri wallah had woken up to find he and his gharri one side of the fence and his horse on the other. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
From another List. I recall a tale told about a gharri horse in Calcutta. A group of E/Os (who else!) were walking back to their ship berthed in Kidderpore Dock when they spied a lone gharri (Victoria) parked up with the gharri wallah asleep and the horse munching hay. They unlimbered the horse, led it to the gate, through the gate, back to the vicinity of the gharri. The horse was then reconnected to the gharri with the forks through the fence. All this without the gharri wallah waking up. Regrettably, the tale does not include the outcome once the gharri wallah had woken up to find he and his gharri one side of the fence and his horse on the other. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
Yet another story on Calcutta: HISTORY AND MARKS OF HAMILTON & CO. CALCUTTA Snipped from http://www.ascasonline.org/articoloGG59ING.html Visit the webpage for full text and images fromthe past. ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India ========================== Robert Hamilton (1772-1848) arrived in India and started work in Calcutta in 1808. He opened his Jewellery and Silversmithing shop at 5 Tank Square in 1808 under licence from the East Indian Company. In 1811 the business moved to 7 Court House Street, where it remained until 1973 when it finally closed. Needing capital to expand the business Robert Hamilton took two partners, Henry and James Glazbrook in 1811. Robert Hamilton's interest ceased in 1817, and he dedicated the latter part of his life to collecting paintings, including works by Rubens, Velazquez and Holbein. During the subsequent years the business had many partners including: Henry and James Glazbrook, James Middleton, George Thoerpe, Charles Galliards, Alexander Rogers II, Henry Augustus Woolaston, William , Joseph, John and George Farrell Remfry, Robert John Dring and Thomas William Brookes. H&Co opened branches in other parts of India: Bombay (1833-36 and from 1868); Delhi and Simla (1865 onwards). [snip]
Hi Esther, Definitely not in Chunar. Did not see them in Allahabad. Yes in Calcutta. Phillip
More tales of the Raj!! Father told me that on more than one occasion they managed to entice a animal, usually a donkey or goat, into a lift/elevator in the very best hotel in Bombay and leave it on the roof...He didn't tell me how many glasses of interesting liquid they- not the donkey- had consumed before the event Peter D Rogers, Suffolk UK ---------------------------------------------------------- Driving down a country road at night very often one got stuck behind a bullock cart with the driver fast asleep. The cows or bulls would pull the cart and walk right in the middle of the road. We would get hold of the cow and turn them with their cart around back in the opposition direction. Unfortunately we never had the pleasure to see the expression and surprise on the face of the cart driver when he woke up to find himself back in the place where he had originally started his journey. Joyce Munro
No story forthcoming John ! Sounds from your remarks, intriguing. Wishes Sally > G'day folks, > > Can anyone vouch for the veracity of this story please?
G'day folks, Can anyone vouch for the veracity of this story please? "My recollection is that it was at the Calcutta Club - but I was not aware that there were two there. It was reported that the horse was led into the bedroom occupied by a sleeping Engineer Superintendent, and left there munching hay till the Super woke." ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
Driving down a country road at night very often one got stuck behind a bullock cart with the driver fast asleep. The cows or bulls would pull the cart and walk right in the middle of the road. We would get hold of the cow and turn them with their cart around back in the opposition direction. Unfortunately we never had the pleasure to see the expression and surprise on the face of the cart driver when he woke up to find himself back in the place where he had originally started his journey. Joyce Munro On Behalf Of John Feltham Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 12:53 PM Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Tales from the Raj From another List. I recall a tale told about a gharri horse in Calcutta. A group of E/Os (who else!) were walking back to their ship berthed in Kidderpore Dock when they spied a lone gharri (Victoria) parked up with the gharri wallah
Snipped from www.yorku.ca/furedy/papers/ko/rtcalcu79.doc "Retail Trade in Calcutta." Capital, Vol 183, No. 4587, December 24, 1979, pp 4-10. RETAIL TRADE IN CALCUTTA Offshoot from the land of shopkeepers by CHRISTINE FUREDY THE foundations of the modern retail trade of Calcutta were laid by British tradesmen who established businesses primarily to serve the needs of the European population of Bengal from the late 18th century. >From a miscellany of small shops and services grew a complex retail sector which made Calcutta the centre of 'modern' retail trade in India, for Calcutta's sector was larger and more diversified than those of other urban areas such as Bombay and Madras. From Calcutta retail trading relationships can be traced in the 19th century throughout the towns, cantonments, hill stations and plantations and even beyond India to towns and cities in China, East and North Africa and South East Asia. Some of Calcutta's famous early retail firms still persist although most have vanished. Nevertheless, several aspects of Calcutta's retail sector today can only be understood in the light of its colonial development. ======================== ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Pakistan's garrison state legacy By Ishtiaq Ahmed The News, August 04, 2007 In his seminal work, The Garrison State: The Military, Government and Society in Colonial Punjab, 1849-1947 (New Delhi and London: Sage Publications, 2005) Tan Tai Yong, a prominent historian of the colonial Punjab era, at the Institute of South Asian Studies, National University of Singapore advances the thesis that Pakistan, not India, is the heir to the garrison state legacy of British colonial rule. A garrison state is one which relies heavily on its fortification and military prowess to ward off internal and external threats. The author asserts that when the British conquered the Punjab in 1849, the policy adopted was to excluding Punjabis, especially Sikhs, from military duty because it was feared that they could be a threat to their interests. However, the 1857 uprising led by north Indian purbiyas forced a change of policy, and the Sikhs as well as Muslims from the western districts were mobilised to crush that rebellion. The 1857 trauma made the British fully aware of the fact that they ruled India by the force of arms and could hold on to it also by the same token. Therefore they must build a strong and formidable military apparatus. However, given the harsh climate and other difficulties a large fighting force comprising European troops could not be maintained permanently. The British Indian Army had to be recruited locally. Moreover, from the second half of the 19th century the fear of a Russian advance into India began to haunt British strategic planning. Because of its geographical location, Punjab became the natural frontline province from where the British took part in the Great Game against perceived Russian and later German threats. A theory of 'martial races' was devised to raise a strong, but dependent army. The groups chosen were: The Khalsa Sikh Jats, especially those of the Manjha region around Amritsar, Muslims tribes such as the Ghakkars, Janjuas, Awans and Tiwanas of the Salt Range tract including Rawalpindi, Jhelum and Shahpur districts, smaller numbers of Hindu Jats of Rothak and Hissar in southeastern Punjab (present-day Haryana), and some Dogras from Kangra. The three major groups faced acute economic hardship in their districts -- overpopulation and land fragmentation in the Manjha, scarce and poor quality land in the rain-fed broken hills of the Salt Range, and recurring famines in the southeastern districts where the Hindu Jats were located. Moreover, historical enmity existed between the Sikhs and the Muslims of the Salt Range because Maharaja Ranjit Singh had inflicted defeat on their elders and curtailed their power. These three groups did not share strong fraternal bonds and were recruited in different companies and regiments but with the overall unified command of British officers. Besides such careful selection of 'class' and 'military districts' the British evolved a sophisticated system of rewarding those connected to the army. Regular pay and allowances, land grants, especially in the canal colonies of western Punjab, pensions and other economic benefits were available to the soldiers as well as those who helped recruit them. These included the tribal and clan leaders, village headmen, zaildars, sufedposhs and other men of influence in the rural areas. Titles such as khan bahadur, nawab and even sir were conferred on them. During World War I Punjab supplied some 60 per cent of the total soldiers raised from India and during War II one-third. Through the Land Alienation Act of 1900, the British made sure that its rural support base in the Punjab was safeguarded against moneylenders and rising urban entrepreneurs. In political terms too a rural bias was present in the electoral reforms of 1919 and 1935. The constituencies were formed in a manner that members from the rural areas constituted the majority. The right to vote was limited by property and land tax qualifications. Simultaneously the government maintained the threat of cancellation and confiscation of titles and land grants if their bearers did not cooperate in supplying soldiers to the Indian Army and in containing trouble in their areas. A conflict with the Sikhs broke out in the 1920s over the control of gurdwaras. It resulted in some casualties but was resolved with the orthodox Sikhs being given the charge of their holy places. The political linchpin of British rule in the Punjab was the Unionist Party founded by Sir Fazl-e-Hussain (died 1936) and later led by Sir Sikander Hayat Khan (died 1942) and supported by Sir Chhottu Ram (died 1945), the leaders of Hindu Jats. The Punjab Unionist Party enlisted the support of the Sikh Khalsa Nationalist Party representing loyalist Sikh landlords. This coalition ruled the Punjab. Nationalist and revolutionary forces found little support in the Punjab. Therefore despite many efforts the Congress Party failed to develop a mass base. However, the Unionist model began to crumble and the garrison state crack when the Muslim League entered Punjab politics in the 1940s with its slogan of Pakistan. Hitherto the Punjab Muslim League was a minor player. It enjoyed the support mainly of the Muslim intelligentsia and some urban professionals. >From 1943 onwards it began loudly to blame the successor of Sir Sikander, Sir Khizr Tiwana, of betraying Muslim interests by opposing the demand for Pakistan. More importantly, it joined hands with the British in the war effort, offering to use its influence to help recruit soldiers from the towns and cities of Punjab and from a social base that included castes hitherto not included among the martial races. Supply of soldiers from the rural areas, the stronghold of the Unionists, had been declining as World War II dragged on. The British increasingly began to recognise the Muslim League as the main representative of Muslims of India. Moreover, challenges to Khizr from disgruntled colleagues resulted in splits and desertions in the Unionist Party. By the election of 1946 the former Punjab Unionist Party had virtually become the Punjab Muslim League as almost all the Muslim landlords had joined the latter. Thus when Pakistan came into being in August 1947, the Muslim League was no longer the party of the erstwhile Muslim intelligentsia or progressive reformers who wanted to create an egalitarian Islamic utopia; it had become a party of conservative landlords. Moreover, the Pakistani Punjab emerged as the most powerful province and the sword arm of the new state. The Pakistani army was essentially a Punjabi army. Both such factors combined to pass on the legacy of the garrison state to Pakistan, argues Tan Tai Yong. The book is a painstaking and meticulous research undertaking based on extensive use of government documents. Such works deserve to be translated into Urdu and made available to the wider public. The author is a visiting senior research fellow at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS), National University of Singapore on leave from the University of Stockholm. Email: isasia@nus.edu.sg http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/news-24/ =============== ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Joyce, Interesting story there! But you also say: <The cows or bulls would pull the cart...> Cart-pulling, and also other agricultural work, is exclusively for bullocks. Cows are never yoked. They are kept only for milk and for breeding more cows and bullocks. After they become old, they are usually just allowed to live out their days. As you know, eating beef is almost unknown in India. Those who do so have to be secretive about it as most Indians are very sensitive on this issue. Even Indians living in other countries normally avoid eating beef. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, March 25, 2008.
What is the ruling on what records you can view? Someone got me my grandfather's records but now they are only available to next of kin?
Can someone from the list help me with where I could write to get the service record of someone who served the British military in India during the British Raj in 1930 - 1940 till independence of India. thanks Esther
The Indian Mutiny of 1857 by Colonel G. B. Malleson, C.S.I. Author of 'The Decisive Battles of India,' 'History of the French in India,' 'Life of Lord Clive', 'The Battlefields of Germany,' 'Ambushes and Surprises,' etc., etc. With Portraits and Plans Seeley and Co., Limited Essex Street, Strand, London 1891 An HTML copy of this book is online at http://ftp1.us.proftpd.org/hyperwar/WH/XIX/India-1857/index.html#index ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Sardhana Fair Sardhana is situated 20 kilometers from the Meerut Town. The place Houses a famous Catholic Church built in the year 1822 by Begum Samru. Tradition has it that Sarkat, a Raja, founded the place and remained in the possession of his descendants till the advent of the Muslims. In 1778 Walter Reinhardt was assigned the Jagir of Sardhana but on his death in the same year the estate passed into the hands of his widow, Begum Samru. Begum Samru also Called Begum Sombre and had nicknames such as Zebunissa, Farzana and Joanna, started her career as a Nautch girl in 18th century India. Later on, she played a very crucial role in the politics and power struggle in 18th and 19th century India. She was the head of a professionally trained mercenary army, inherited from her European mercenary husband, Walter Reinhardt. She is also regarded as the only Catholic Ruler in India. Every year on the 1st Sunday of the month of November a large feast is held in honor of Mother Mary. Devotes and history lovers gather in a large numbers to see not only the wonderful shrine but also the fine palaces built in Italian style around the church by Begum Samru. The festival is marked by an Indian style Carnival that has become very popular in recent years. There are lots of traditional performances too. http://www.bharatonline.com/uttar-pradesh/fairs-festivals/sardhana-fair.html ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Hi David, Well, the best bet must be the British Library, India Office: http://www.bl.uk/collections/orientalandindian.html where they hold the Histories of the Indian Army Service Corps in a set of 5 volumes of which I used these: 'History of the I.A.S.C.' Vol 3 by B.M.Majumdar OIOC ref IOL T17962 Vol III & IV by V.J.Moharir OIOC ref IOL T43127 and perhaps more importantly, all surviving Indian Army Service Records, which they used to research for free. They are a smashing bunch there, and remarkably helpful and enthusiastic, with endless archives of Army lists, maps and photos plus 'Hodgson's Index' and really its a great big gold mine for this sort of research. There is also a Births, Marriages and Deaths index there for India, Most of the officers who volunteered for this Corps were individulists - they liked the freedom to run their own show, etc., by and large independant from Corps HQ and on attachment to other units. If your man was ex-British army before be commissioned into the Indian Army, his British Army records will be found at the MoD http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/militaryhistory/army/ and http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html another site which I have not had time to explore, is: http://www.movinghere.org.uk/galleries/roots/asian/servicerecords/servicerecords.htm which could prove very useful. Look forward to hearing from you and helping where possible, Chris, -- Original Message -----> From: "David Railton" <railton.david@btinternet.com>> To: "INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ" <INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 9:32 AM> Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Indian Army Records - WWII>>>> Can anyone please tell me if I am likely to find any information onsomeone>> who was commissioned into the Royal Indian Army Service Corps in WWII inthe>> India Office records: "L/MIL: India Office: Military Department Records>> 1708-1959"?>>>> If such information is likely to be found there what details would it>> provide? Would it, for example, show next of kin and date of leaving>> service?>>>> Should I be looking elsewhere? Does the PRO have Indian Army records?>>>> David>>>>>> ------------------------------->> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an e! mail toINDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' withoutthe quotes in the subject and the body of the message>>>>>> -->> No virus found in this incoming message.>> Checked by AVG.>> Version: 7.5.519 / Virus Database: 269.21.8/1340 - Release Date:23/03/2008 18:50>>>>>
Can anyone please tell me if I am likely to find any information on someone who was commissioned into the Royal Indian Army Service Corps in WWII in the India Office records: "L/MIL: India Office: Military Department Records 1708-1959"? If such information is likely to be found there what details would it provide? Would it, for example, show next of kin and date of leaving service? Should I be looking elsewhere? Does the PRO have Indian Army records? David