True!! Doesn't worry me if it's revisited, John.........just that it was proven long ago not to have been Napier's quip. I wish it had been, since he was a distant rellie.......but alas, the smart genes seem to have petered out very early in the piece when it comes to my family!! :))) Cheers, Lynne. :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLESNAPIERANDHIS IMPERIAL PUN > G'day Lynne, > > On 11/05/2008, at 12:27 AM, Lynne Hadley wrote: > > > Is this a case of deja vous, or have we really visited this > > before?!! :)) > > Yes, but more facts come to life as time goes by and we also have a > few new Listers. > > :-) > > > > > ooroo > > If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. > > Anon. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.15/1426 - Release Date: > 5/10/2008 11:12 AM >
G'day Lynne, On 11/05/2008, at 12:27 AM, Lynne Hadley wrote: > Is this a case of deja vous, or have we really visited this > before?!! :)) Yes, but more facts come to life as time goes by and we also have a few new Listers. :-) ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
Hi guys, Is this a case of deja vous, or have we really visited this before?!! :)) Quote: "The seizure of the province was unpopular back in England and in May 1844 a quick-witted seventeen year old girl, Catherine Winkworth, wrote in to Punch, suggesting that Napier's despatch to Lord Ellenborough should have read Peccavi - the Latin for 'I have sinned.' Cheers, Lynne. :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIERANDHIS IMPERIAL PUN > G'day folks, > > On 10/05/2008, at 11:06 PM, John Kendall wrote: > > <<The saying appeared in Punch twice, some years apart, one was the > cartoon > and (I think) the earlier was a small 1 paragraph aside. I have them > in my > Punch collection somewhere, I'll try and look it out. Nevertheless it > is > still an urban myth that Napier sent any such signal. Similarly the > provenance of Colin Campbell's signal "Nunc fortunatus sum" (I am in > Luck > now) in 1857 is also doubted.>> > > And let us not forget Lord Dalhousie.....when he annexed Oudh he is > supposed to have sent a despatch 'Vovi' - "I've vowed" - I have Oudh. > > > ooroo > > If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. > > Anon. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.14/1425 - Release Date: 5/9/2008 > 12:38 PM > >
G'day folks, On 10/05/2008, at 11:06 PM, John Kendall wrote: <<The saying appeared in Punch twice, some years apart, one was the cartoon and (I think) the earlier was a small 1 paragraph aside. I have them in my Punch collection somewhere, I'll try and look it out. Nevertheless it is still an urban myth that Napier sent any such signal. Similarly the provenance of Colin Campbell's signal "Nunc fortunatus sum" (I am in Luck now) in 1857 is also doubted.>> And let us not forget Lord Dalhousie.....when he annexed Oudh he is supposed to have sent a despatch 'Vovi' - "I've vowed" - I have Oudh. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
Quite right Lynne, it has, and can be seen in the archives. And just to put this to bed once and for all, the following is from the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations: "11.113 Catherine Winkworth 1827-78 Peccavi-I have Sindh. Of Sir Charles Napier's conquest of Sind (1843). Pun sent to Punch, 13 May 1844, and printed as 'the most laconic despatch ever issued', supposedly sent by Napier to Lord Ellenborough, in 'Punch' vol. 6, p.209, 18 May 1844. N. M. Billimoria 'Proceedings of the Sind Historical Society' 2 (1938) and 'Notes & Queries' (1954) p. 219." Best regards John -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lynne Hadley Sent: 10 May 2008 15:27 To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIERANDHIS IMPERIAL PUN Hi guys, Is this a case of deja vous, or have we really visited this before?!! :)) Quote: "The seizure of the province was unpopular back in England and in May 1844 a quick-witted seventeen year old girl, Catherine Winkworth, wrote in to Punch, suggesting that Napier's despatch to Lord Ellenborough should have read Peccavi - the Latin for 'I have sinned.' Cheers, Lynne. :)) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> To: <india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:21 PM Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIERANDHIS IMPERIAL PUN > G'day folks, > > On 10/05/2008, at 11:06 PM, John Kendall wrote: > > <<The saying appeared in Punch twice, some years apart, one was the > cartoon > and (I think) the earlier was a small 1 paragraph aside. I have them > in my > Punch collection somewhere, I'll try and look it out. Nevertheless it > is > still an urban myth that Napier sent any such signal. Similarly the > provenance of Colin Campbell's signal "Nunc fortunatus sum" (I am in > Luck > now) in 1857 is also doubted.>> > > And let us not forget Lord Dalhousie.....when he annexed Oudh he is > supposed to have sent a despatch 'Vovi' - "I've vowed" - I have Oudh. > > > ooroo > > If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. > > Anon. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.14/1425 - Release Date: 5/9/2008 > 12:38 PM > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
If General Napier dispatched his message in 1842 then Punch could not have been the origin of the saying. They published their Cartoon/caricature two years later in 1844 Joyce Munro -----Original Message----- bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Kendall Sent: 10 May 2008 14:08 Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIERAND HIS IMPERIAL PUN Sadly and urban myth. Punch was the origin of the saying. J -----Original Message----- Sent: 10 May 2008 08:12 Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS IMPERIAL PUN A new write-up on SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS IMPERIAL PUN May 9, 2008 http://cambridgeforecast.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/sindh-and-sinned-gener al-c harles-napier-and-his-imperial-pun/ ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ NOD32 3086 (20080508) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.14/1425 - Release Date: 09/05/2008 12:38 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.14/1425 - Release Date: 09/05/2008 12:38
The saying appeared in Punch twice, some years apart, one was the cartoon and (I think) the earlier was a small 1 paragraph aside. I have them in my Punch collection somewhere, I'll try and look it out. Nevertheless it is still an urban myth that Napier sent any such signal. Similarly the provenance of Colin Campbell's signal "Nunc fortunatus sum" (I am in Luck now) in 1857 is also doubted. Best regards John -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of MunroZoo Sent: 10 May 2008 13:32 To: - Rajlist - Rootsweb Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIERAND HIS IMPERIAL PUN If General Napier dispatched his message in 1842 then Punch could not have been the origin of the saying. They published their Cartoon/caricature two years later in 1844 Joyce Munro
Sadly and urban myth. Punch was the origin of the saying. J -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Sent: 10 May 2008 08:12 To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS IMPERIAL PUN A new write-up on SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS IMPERIAL PUN May 9, 2008 http://cambridgeforecast.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/sindh-and-sinned-general-c harles-napier-and-his-imperial-pun/ ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
May 10, 2008 Snipped from http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23666767-5002031,00.html JOURNEYS: THE SPIRIT OF DISCOVERY: The Times Atlas of World History is a record of the impermanence of human and political borders, writes Murray Laurence IN Imperium, his account of the disintegration of the Soviet empire, the great Polish reporter Ryszard Kapuscinski writes, "At the approach to every border, tension rises within us; emotions heighten. The Times Atlas of World History is an extraordinary record of the impermanence, instability and arbitrariness of the world's human and political borders. On every page there is a map that illustrates the expansion of the territory of one group of humans and the inevitable contraction of another's. We know without reading the accompanying text that such movement in frontiers would have involved pillage, rape, torture, calamity and death often on an unimaginable scale. The borders thus grasped would be assaulted anew at any time by the previously vanquished, ambitious or thwarted relatives of the current possessor of the territories, or by some new more formidable invader, causing more terror, destruction and flight. Choosing a country where I have wandered, I look at the entry on the Mughal Empire and the growth of British power in India, covering the 16th and 17th centuries. It depicts the expansion of the Mughals under Akbar and Shahjahan, and up until the death of Aurangzeb in 1707 by which time the Maratha Hindus, as well as Persians, Afghanis and European trading powers had the Mughals facing almighty assaults on multiple fronts. The expansion and then retreat of the Mughal borders involved battles on a gigantic scale. We know from reading William Dalrymple's scholarly works that armies comprised thousands of elephants, which suggests the carnage involved, as well as the cataclysmic disruption to the lives of innocents. The saying was "the Ruler of Delhi is the same as the Lord of the Universe", attesting to their supposed immanence. Oddly, this brings to mind the verse by Irish poet Patrick Kavanagh, Inniskeen Road: July Evening, which ends, "A road, a mile of kingdom, I am king/of banks and stones and every blooming thing" but I feel that Kavanagh's territory is not of a dimension that would have impressed a Mughal. Still, in 1803, Shah Alam II, defeated by the armies of Arthur Wellesley (later the Duke of Wellington), sought the protection of the British, leaving India in the hands of the British East India Company. Granted, Akbar and his successor kings did leave a colossal heritage in art, including, in an ironic touch, the miniature painting and boundless architectural wonders, not much of it wreckage at the time, but in meditating upon the expansion and disintegration of the borders of their universe, and the fortunes of their subjects, we appreciate the meaning of Kapuscinski's words. ============================ ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
A new write-up on SINDH AND SINNED: GENERAL CHARLES NAPIER AND HIS IMPERIAL PUN May 9, 2008 http://cambridgeforecast.wordpress.com/2008/05/09/sindh-and-sinned-general-charles-napier-and-his-imperial-pun/ ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Dear Listers, The 'Peccavi' urban legend appears to have a life of its own! It has been discussed several time here in this List. The last time was as recent as December 2007... Arvind Kolhatkar, May 10, 2008.
HI Arvind: It's all an -H follow-up... "hi" -H!! "hi" John!! --Manaia ++++ --- Arvind Kolhatkar <akolhatkar@rogers.com> wrote: > Dear Listers, > > The 'Peccavi' urban legend appears to have a life of > its own! > > It has been discussed several time here in this > List. The last time was as recent as December > 2007... > > Arvind Kolhatkar, May 10, 2008. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
Time Travel with The Kohinoor - World's Most Precious Diamond A DTC FILM: *** The animated story of the world's most famous Kohinoor diamond, that begins in a prehistoric volcano near Golconda in south India, moving up from ancient mine slave to his master and the first ever recorded owner was Mahlak Deo, the Raja of Malwa in the year 1305 and so on, down the Mughal dynasty, the Persian empire, the Sikh rulers, the Queen of the British Empire, playing musical chairs down her long family tree and finally ending up at the Tower of London, where the Kohinoor is on display today. The animation style used is inspired by ancient Indian cave art that used simple lines with dramatic punctuations to illustrate the high points. The story of a diamond that lives beyond every one of its owners, beyond generations, beyond family trees, beyond empires and beyond millenniums. A diamond is forever. *** http://videos.nighi.com/video/video/show?id=549954:Video:39674 ----- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India
Today the ODNB LIFE OF THE DAY has published the life of Colin Mackenzie, which will be online for free viewing for the next seven days, at http://www.oxforddnb.com/view/lotw/2008-05-08 -------- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Nagpur, India Some highlights: Mackenzie, Colin (1753-1821), military engineer and surveyor, was born at Stornoway, Isle of Lewis, in the Outer Hebrides. Little is known of his early life. Mackenzie was appointed comptroller of customs in Lewis, but took leave (to January 1783), seeking service in India. He was appointed ensign in the East India Company's infantry on 16 May 1783 and almost at once transferred to the engineers. He was promoted lieutenant (1789), captain (1793), major (1806), brevet lieutenant-colonel (1809), regimental lieutenant-colonel (1810), and full colonel (1819). After surveying in Dindigul (1784) and Nellore (1787), in 1788 Mackenzie conducted a survey of roads across a large tract of the northern Carnatic, at his own expense. In 1798-9, in the last war against Mysore, Mackenzie's knowledge of the country, plus his advance surveying, quickened the Hyderabad army's long march to join Arthur Wellesley. At Seringapatam a near ambush cemented his friendship with Wellesley, who claimed he 'never saw a more zealous, a more diligent, or a more useful officer'. Mackenzie's 'bravery and sangfroid in action were proverbial', and his engineering played a crucial part in the defeat of Tipu Sultan. Mackenzie held a sinecure in Madras, to arrange and analyse his materials and prepare maps and reports (1808), and was appointed Madras surveyor- general in 1810, with overall control despite a disagreement over military surveying with the quartermaster-general, Valentine Blacker. in 1815 was appointed surveyor-general of India. Mackenzie's concerns with surveying in depth and with history and religion, and his lack of Indian languages, brought him into close contact with Indian informants and collaborators. Although he produced historical memoirs, catalogues, notes, drawings, and paintings, Mackenzie and his collaborators did not publish much. Among others, Arrowsmith's Atlas (1822), and that of John Walker (1825), incorporated Mackenzie's work. His chief contributions were the preservation of materials, and the development of the survey as an important institution of government. ===============================
> Yes please - I'd like a copy of Virtual Verandah. Please send me > details. > Hazel Craig May I add my own interest. Thank you Sally Stewart
Hello again Further to emails re Park Mansions - it was no: 57 Park Street when we lived there 1940s. I guess there must have been odd numbers on that side of the street starting from Chowringhee ? Wishes Sally
G'day folks, Ca anyone assist Shirley please? Begin forwarded message: From: "Shirley Abraham" <abraham.shirley@gmail.com> Date: 7 May 2008 9:17:24 PM To: "John Feltham" <wulguru.wantok@gmail.com> Subject: Re: McCluskieganj Hi John, Thanks again. Your input was helpful. by any chance, will you have a recent email for Dick McCluskie and Ronnie Johnson? I have mailed them both on older addressees, and the emails are bouncing back. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
G'day Sally, On 07/05/2008, at 8:02 PM, karoo wrote: <<I have a photograph of Park Mansions taken 1980 if anyone would like me to email a scanned copy.>> Yes please Sally. ooroo If you don't hear the knock of opportunity - build a door. Anon.
Hello Sally I would very much like to see a photograph of Park Mansions as I believe that my husband's grandparents may have lived there in the 1930s. Thanks for the offer. Kind regards Gay -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of karoo Sent: Wednesday, 7 May 2008 8:03 PM To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Park Mansions I have a photograph of Park Mansions taken 1980 if anyone would like me to email a scanned copy. Sally Stewart ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I have a photograph of Park Mansions taken 1980 if anyone would like me to email a scanned copy. Sally Stewart