Mandeep Singh Bajwa wrote: > True that Kipling portrayed the times in which he lived vividly.But those > beleifs are unacceptable and by criticising him we are condemning the > racism, parchialism and politically incorrect beliefs and behaviour of that > era. Mendeep - I sympathize with your sentiments, but in this, as with other historical practices by many peoples that are now thought to be totally unacceptable, I find difficulty in condemning the populace of those times, when such thoughts and actions were certainly not considered as politically incorrect. It is the old problem of applying today's thoughts, feelings and expectations to the past, which I believe should not be done. We are approaching deep waters here that perhaps should not be navigated on this list. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon He [Pythagoras] was the great father and inventor of common sense, as Ceres was of the plow (sic), and Bacchus of intoxication. Rev. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's.

I used to be a member of this Society once upon a time. They are quite nice folks, but like all such fan clubs all over the world, they are perpetually in need of the coin of the realm - cash, the moolah, dough! No harm in trying, though. OTOH, diehard Kipling-bashers, specially in India, are likely to feel far from gruntled, if such a plan does materialize ... --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar ----- Original Message ----- from Hazel Craig There's a 'Kipling Society' in England devoted to keeping his name alive and looking after the house where he lived in England. How about getting in touch with them about saving Kipling's bungalow in Allahabad? Of course, they may already be aware of the state of affairs. Anyway, I'll do a bit of scouting around and see if the Kipling Society would be interested in helping. --- ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, I grew up watching the "Lion King" and Rudyard Kipling during my school days was never so detested as I've just heard this morning. I'm sorry that people were like that, but I am glad we've improved somewhat, don't ya think? "I hope so." --Manaia ++++ --- On Thu, 8/21/08, Haztwin@aol.com <Haztwin@aol.com> wrote: > Well done Andrew. Couldn't agree more. The opinions > and rules of one era > simply cannot be applied to > another. I like to think that we are wiser to-day having > had a lot of > practice, and what would be anathema in a bygone era > simply cannot apply using > to-day's standards. I must not go on reiterating > this opinion, so will > shut up! HC

Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar wrote: > <snip> they are perpetually in need of the coin of the > realm - cash, the moolah, dough! <snip> > Aren't we all? > OTOH, diehard Kipling-bashers, specially in India, are likely > to feel far from gruntled, if such a plan does materialize ... True enough, but however hard they may be they seem to be a dying, (or at least a shrinking), breed. It now appears less fashionable to bash his works; people are now accepting that he portrays the feelings of his times - however unacceptable some of them seem today. His: When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, And the women come out to cut up what remains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brain An' go to your Gawd like a soldier. suddenly took on a new relevance some few years ago. Yours Aye Andrew Sellon. A just and necessary war costs this country about one hundred pounds a minute; whipcord fifteen thousand pounds; red tape seven thousand pounds; lace for drummers and fifers, nineteen thousand pounds; a pension to one man who has broken his head at the Pole; to another who has shattered his leg on the Equator; subsidies to Persia; secret service money to Thibet; an annuity to Lady Henry Somebody and her seven daughters – the husband being shot at some place where we never ought to have had any soldiers at all. Rev. Sydney Smith 1771-1854, Canon of St. Paul's.

OH, dear, in my ignorance, I h\d no idea that Kipling was not an O.K guy in India. Ah well, perhaps a bit of research is due and might result in an article for an appropriate journal! HC

if more than 100 years old, has INTACH (New Delhi) been of any help? Might be a good starting place for the Kipling folks in the UK. Megan S. Mills PHD198 St Helen'sToronto CDA M6H 4A1 > From: bosham@gmail.com> To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com> Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 11:26:09 +0530> Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Kipling's Allahabad bungalow in shambles> > I used to be a member of this Society once upon a time.> They are quite nice folks, but like all such fan clubs all over> the world, they are perpetually in need of the coin of the> realm - cash, the moolah, dough! No harm in trying, though.> > OTOH, diehard Kipling-bashers, specially in India, are likely> to feel far from gruntled, if such a plan does materialize ...> > --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar> > > ----- Original Message ----- from Hazel Craig> > There's a 'Kipling Society' in England devoted to keeping his name alive> and looking after the house where he lived in England. How about getting> in touch with them about saving Kipling's bungalow in Allahabad? Of course,> they may already be aware of the state of affairs. Anyway, I'll do a bit > of> scouting around and see if the Kipling Society would be interested in > helping.> ---> > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message> >

I am wondering if there anybody on this list going on the upcoming tour to India? I would appreciate contact with anybody who is - OFF list please. ie - email to my personal address. Thanks Flavia

Dear Listers, >From Harshawardhan's recent post on this topic: << He said he had also approached Mishra in 1985. "I finally entered into an agreement with a private developer, Kamzor Varg Evam Karmachari Sahkari Grih Samiti, and sold off 70 percent of the land," said Tandon. >> What an irony! The bunglow where once lived a man considered by many to be the exemplar of the Sahib, will now house 'Kamzor Varg Evam Karmachari' (translation: the Weaker Sections of the Society (as they are called in Indian officialese) and Servants! 'kaalaaya tasmai namaH' or 'Bend before the God of Time' as the 7th century poet Bhartrihari said in Sanskrit! Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, August 20, 2008.

Antiquity at its best Monday, Dec 23, 2002 From http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/mp/2002/12/23/stories/2002122300660100.htm Visakhapatnam is fortunate to have many churches but there is one church that deserves special mention. This church is located 18 km. from Visakhapatnam in the coastal town of Bheemunipatnam. It is the St. Peter's Church that was consecrated in 1864. Its architectural splendour, location and the history connected with it make it stand apart. This church was constructed at the time when a small European community comprising 80 persons inhabited this picturesque coastal town. The Dutch, who were present there since 1750, ceded the town to the British in 1825. But until 1840, there was practically no activity either militarily or commercially. It was only after George Russell took it over, the town began to attract European capital. Many big firms, including the Arbuthnot and Company opened up their agency offices and this town housed a regular port of call for ships sailing between Madras and Calcutta. This facilitated the growth of inland trade also. Till 1858, the chaplains of Vizagapatam used to visit occasionally the small community of European merchants and hold the service at the Magistrate's cutcheri. The seed of building an exclusive church for the community was sown in the minds of the young merchants by John Griffith, the then Chaplain of Vizagapatam. (more) --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Rudyard Kipling's Allahabad bungalow in shambles Allahabad, June 08, 2008 A bungalow close to Allahabad University where Rudyard Kipling - the renowned author of such classics as Kim and The Jungle Book - lived for a year in the late 19th century is now in a shambles. With successive governments in the northern Indian state of Uttar Pradesh and Allahabad University turning down requests from the bungalow's owners to purchase it, it is gradually collapsing for want of upkeep. A major portion of the land where it was built has already been sold off. Kipling had lived in the bungalow, located on 1,300 square yards of land next to the Motilal Nehru Road, from 1888 to 1889 when he was assistant editor with the Pioneer newspaper in Allahabad. "If I recall correctly, as vice chancellor of Allahabad University, I had written a letter to the University Grants Commission in 1985 to provide funds to get the land and the bungalow," R.P. Mishra, former vice chancellor of the varsity, told IANS on phone from Delhi. After Mishra left the university, there was no follow-up. The owner of the land, Sudhir Tandon, too asserted that he had approached the state government and the university authorities many times to buy the place at a reasonable price but they did not seem to be interested. "I approached Gopal Mehrotra, the then principal secretary to chief minister Narayan Dutt Tiwari, himself an alumnus of Allahabad University, and submitted my proposal to sell the land to the government in 1989," Tandon told IANS. He said he had also approached Mishra in 1985. "I finally entered into an agreement with a private developer, Kamzor Varg Evam Karmachari Sahkari Grih Samiti, and sold off 70 percent of the land," said Tandon. He clarified that the bungalow stood on the remaining 30 percent of the land, which has not been sold so far. Tandon said, "I feel strongly for a personality like Kipling and understand the bungalow's importance. I will sell it if the government approaches me." The former vice-chancellor and Tandon are not the only ones to have written to the authorities. Successive principals of the Government Nursery Training College, which was run from the bungalow till 2007, had written over a dozen letters to the government and the university, requesting them for the building's upkeep. When contacted, the present acting Finance Officer of Allahabad University, J.N. Mishra, told IANS, "I don't have any idea about this land. Contact the university registrar." Registrar Firdau Wani said, "I am on leave, I can't comment on it." http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=a30fa256-3d73-4cc3-8d5e-0fda8d495626&MatchID1=4739&TeamID1=8&TeamID2=6&MatchType1=2&SeriesID1=1195&PrimaryID=4739&Headline=Rudyard+Kipling's+Allahabad+bungalow+in+shambles&strParent=strParentID --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Be glad to help. msb On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar < bosham@gmail.com> wrote: > Mandeep, can you help Paramvir Singh Chattwal? > > --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > > Sikh rodeo star hunts for hero Hounslow ancestors > By Robert Cumber > > Aug 18 2008 > > A self-styled 'cowboy in a turban' has ridden into Hounslow to learn more > about his great great grandfather's proud military history. Paramvir Singh > Chattwal, of central Hounslow, who claims to be the world's only Sikh > rodeo star after taking up the sport while living in Texas has hung up his > spurs for now to track down information about his decorated forefather, > who he believes died in or around the borough. > > Paramvir has already spent years researching the life of Risaldar Major > Sher Singh Sirdar Bahadoor, who was an original member of the Punjab > Frontier Force, formed in 1849. > > He was amazed to discover his relative was the only Sikh chosen to > represent the regiment at Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee celebrations > in 1887 when he was still serving at the ripe old age of 74. He fought > for the British in the Indian Mutiny of 1857 and in the AfghanWars, where > his bravery saw him made a Companion of the Indian Empire(CIE). > > But Paramvir believes he earned his peers' respect by escorting the > Koh-i-noor diamond, then the largest in the world, on a perilousmission > across India to Calcutta before it became part of the British Crown Jewels > in 1877. > > "I couldn't believe he'd been breaking social barriers in 1887 by mixing > with the British aristocracy and five generations later I'm doing the same > by taking up rodeo," said Paramvir. > > The 34-year-old horse breeder is determined to find out where his > grandfather stayed and get in touch with any descendants of the British > leaders like Sir Sam Browne, General F S Roberts and Sir Dighton Probyn. > > If you know anything about the history of the Punjab Frontier Force or > where > Risaldar Bahadoor may have been stationed, call 020 8538 2227 or email > robertcumber@trinitysouth.co.uk > > > http://www.hounslowchronicle.co.uk/west-london-news/local-hounslow-news/2008/08/18/sikh-rodeo-star-hunts-for-hero-hounslow-ancestors-109642-21552703/ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

There's a 'Kipling Society' in England devoted to keeping his name alive and looking after the house where he lived in England. How about getting in touch with them about saving Kipling's bungalow in Allahabad?. Of course, they may already be aware of the state of affairs. Anyway, I'll do a bit of scouting around and see if the Kipling Society would be interested in helping. His home in England is called "Bateman's". Hazel Craig

07 August 2008 Armenian Merchant Information Networks, 1600s-1800s ''The latest issue of the Journal of World History (vol. 19, no. 2) leads off with an article that somehow caught my fancy. Whitman College professor Sebouh Aslanian writes on "The Salt in a Merchant's Letter": The Culture of Julfan Correspondence in the Indian Ocean and the Mediterranean (Project MUSE subscription required). Here's a bit of the introduction (omitting footnotes and page numbers).'' snipped from http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2008/08/armenian-merchant-information-networks.html --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Mandeep, can you help Paramvir Singh Chattwal? --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar Sikh rodeo star hunts for hero Hounslow ancestors By Robert Cumber Aug 18 2008 A self-styled 'cowboy in a turban' has ridden into Hounslow to learn more about his great great grandfather's proud military history. Paramvir Singh Chattwal, of central Hounslow, who claims to be the world's only Sikh rodeo star after taking up the sport while living in Texas has hung up his spurs for now to track down information about his decorated forefather, who he believes died in or around the borough. Paramvir has already spent years researching the life of Risaldar Major Sher Singh Sirdar Bahadoor, who was an original member of the Punjab Frontier Force, formed in 1849. He was amazed to discover his relative was the only Sikh chosen to represent the regiment at Queen Victoria's Golden Jubilee celebrations in 1887 when he was still serving at the ripe old age of 74. He fought for the British in the Indian Mutiny of 1857 and in the AfghanWars, where his bravery saw him made a Companion of the Indian Empire(CIE). But Paramvir believes he earned his peers' respect by escorting the Koh-i-noor diamond, then the largest in the world, on a perilousmission across India to Calcutta before it became part of the British Crown Jewels in 1877. "I couldn't believe he'd been breaking social barriers in 1887 by mixing with the British aristocracy and five generations later I'm doing the same by taking up rodeo," said Paramvir. The 34-year-old horse breeder is determined to find out where his grandfather stayed and get in touch with any descendants of the British leaders like Sir Sam Browne, General F S Roberts and Sir Dighton Probyn. If you know anything about the history of the Punjab Frontier Force or where Risaldar Bahadoor may have been stationed, call 020 8538 2227 or email robertcumber@trinitysouth.co.uk http://www.hounslowchronicle.co.uk/west-london-news/local-hounslow-news/2008/08/18/sikh-rodeo-star-hunts-for-hero-hounslow-ancestors-109642-21552703/

----- Original Message ----- From: "Sylvia Murphy" Maybe it would be a good idea to see if any of the other European nations provide similar information about their consular activities in India. ================= Pending that, we can make some search - research on our own. Here are some Italian connexions, of course, on different themes. 1 Italian POWs in India, 1944 06 April 2006 One of the most intriguing organized units involved in road building [in India] was the Italian Auxiliary Pioneer Corps. This was raised from so-called Italian 'co-operators'. During 8th Army's campaigns against the Italians in 1941 and 1942, thousands of Italians had been brought to POW camps in India as they could not be taken to Britain. At first, the Italians were something of a nuisance in a jocular sort of way. They were adept at spreading anti-Allied propaganda to the Indian population - for example on the backs of cigarette packs with one or two cigarettes left in them. British military intelligence was particularly struck by one jape. The POWs had fabricated an Italian fascist flag from old clothes. They captured a vulture which flew into their compound and tied the flag to it. The unfortunate bird was seen flapping around the surrounding villages for hours displaying the insignia of Mussolini's new Roman Empire. After the fall of the dictator and the German invasion of Italy, however, many Italian soldiers who were not committed fascists agreed to work on the Allied side. The valleys of Assam were alive with the sounds of the songs of Sorrento. SOURCE: Forgotten Armies: Britain's Asian Empire & the War with Japan, by Christopher Bayly and Tim Harper (Penguin, 2004), p. 426 http://faroutliers.blogspot.com/2006/04/italian-pows-in-india-1944.html 2 Tipu had in him Italian Renaissance 17 August 2008 By Tarique Anwar and Md. Ali, TwoCircles.net, (In an exclusive talk with TwoCircles.net Dr. B. Shaikh Ali, a renowned historian, an authority on Haider Ali and Tipu and former vice-chancellor of Mangalore and Goa universities, elaborated on neglected but shining aspects of Tipu Sultan: his personality, rule, his secular credentials and most significantly his resistance to the British expansion in India.) "In the field of historical movements, Italy gave Renaissance, Germany gave Reformation, France gave Revolution and India gave Tipu Sultan who blended in himself all these three movements." This is how Dr. B. Shaikh Ali, the renowned historian and an authority on Haider Ali and Tipu Sultan describes Tipu Sultan's multifaceted personality and his overall contribution to Modern India. http://www.twocircles.net/2008aug17/tipu_had_him_italian_renaissance_german_reformation_french_revolution_dr_b_shaikh_ali.html 3 Also see - British Italian Legion At the outbreak of the Crimean War Britain had difficulty expanding the army because of the policy of voluntary enlistment. As a result, foreign mercenary troops were recruited for service in the Crimea, forming the British German legion, British Swiss Legion and British Italian Legion. This move was unpopular at home and abroad, so the British government was anxious to disband the legions as soon as possible after the Crimean campaign. The East India Company declined to employ the men to strengthen its force in India, and there was opposition to the idea of retaining highly paid foreign troops in Britain for garrison duties. In most cases, repatriation was out of the question as their respective governments were reluctant to readmit legionaries who had served a foreign state. As a result, many legionaries settled in the colonies. Those who could afford to support themselves for a while opted for North America, but most were pressed into joining the military settlement scheme in Cape Colony. http://yourarchives.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php?title=The_British_German_Legion%2C_British_Swiss_Legion%2C_British_Italian_Legion =============== --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar

Approximately 5,000 Indian soldiers volunteered to serve with the Hind Legion and fight for Indian independence.The Germans however had different ideas and used them for occupation/garrison duties in France. They fought during the Normandy Campaign and subsequent battles in France. At the end of the war I believe over 200 of the Azad Hind Legion soldiers were shot out of hand by French troops. Mandeep Bajwa On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar < bosham@gmail.com> wrote: > Snipped from http://www.feldgrau.com/azadhind.html > > Indian Volunteers in the German Wehrmacht > > *** Agitation for the end of British rule in India had existed for decades > prior to the outbreak of the Second World War. Therefore it was logical > for the Axis powers during WWII to attempt to capitalize on anti-British > sentiments by attempting to recruit a military force from disaffected > Indian prisoners-of war captured while serving with the British > Commonwealth > forces in the North African campaign.*** (More) > > --- Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Anglo-Indians defy stereotypes By Soutik Biswas BBC News, Calcutta Calcutta has a large Anglo-Indian community Tumbledown Bow Barracks, a near century-old red brick housing block in a back alley in the eastern Indian city of Calcutta, has not changed much for its third generation resident Kimberley Gomes. Many of its Anglo-Indian residents still feast on pork vindaloo, listen to Engelbert Humperdinck on the few remaining turntables, and swap tales on lazy afternoons sitting on their slatted verandas. Please,click on, for details: "Anglo-Indians defy stereotypes http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6932623.stm"

In 1922 I strongly doubt that Madeira would have been en route to India. Ships from Britain and N W Europe would have headed through the strait of Gibraltar, through the Mediterranean to Suez and through the canal. Going back to the days of sailing ships before the overland routes were discovered, then yes, ships may well have stopped at Madeira. Now I can sit back and wait to be shot down in flames by all the people whose ships stopped at Madeira on the way to India! Cheers Sylvia > -----Original Message----- > From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > David Railton > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:26 PM > To: INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ > Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] Shipping route to India 1922 > > It has been suggested to me that someone who travelled from > England to Madeira in 1922 may have been on the first stage > of a voyage to India. The ship she disembarked from at > Madeira went on to Buenos Aires. > > I don't have information on shipping routes at that time but > I would imagine that it would be an unusual route to take. > Can anyone tell me if there were passenger services from > Madeira to India in the 1920s? I imagine that if there were > any they would be very infrequent. > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the message >

Thanks for this link Harshoo - in English too! - it's a pity that they only provide a list of the Consuls General from 1854. I wonder if there is a list available, together with other staff in the pre-war period. Maybe it would be a good idea to see if any of the other European nations provide similar information about their consular activities in India. My errant grandfather's 3rd wife whom he married in 1929 in Calcutta was Italian, I think, - Madeleine Lina Balbis, daughter of Vincenzo Balbis. That marriage like the earlier two probably also ended in divorce, but have often wondered if she belonged to staff of one of the consulates in Calcutta. Sylvia > -----Original Message----- > From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of > Harshawardhan_Bosham Nimkhedkar > Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 3:19 PM > To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com > Subject: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] History of the German Consulate > in Calcutta > > History of the Consulate General in Calcutta

This thread reminds me of a subject that is of interest to me. Does anyone know anything about any German influence on the Anglo-Indian community in India, more particularly Bombay, in the 1930s? David -----Original Message----- From: india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-british-raj-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sylvia Murphy Sent: 18 August 2008 10:39 To: india-british-raj@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INDIA-BRITISH-RAJ] History of the German Consulate in Calcutta Thanks for this link Harshoo - in English too! - it's a pity that they only provide a list of the Consuls General from 1854. I wonder if there is a list available, together with other staff in the pre-war period. Maybe it would be a good idea to see if any of the other European nations provide similar information about their consular activities in India. My errant grandfather's 3rd wife whom he married in 1929 in Calcutta was Italian, I think, - Madeleine Lina Balbis, daughter of Vincenzo Balbis. That marriage like the earlier two probably also ended in divorce, but have often wondered if she belonged to staff of one of the consulates in Calcutta. Sylvia