Hi Debra I found out about my south Asian ancestry by having my DNA tested. The problem I have now is a brick wall trying to identify any thing about my second great grandmother, a south Asian who with my second great grandfather William saint, 1819-1876 , had my great grandfather Ralph robert saint in Lahore. My mother was born in 1921 in Dehra Dunn through the Saint line. I did two tests both were $99, 23and Me and ancestry.com. 23andme said I am 8% south Asian while ancestry was 11%. 8% is exactly what I had calculated. Interesting though is that both came back with the rest being Northern European. The difference was that 23andMe said 41% British and Irish and the rest other Northern European while ancestry said 38% Britain and 33% Irish. This is quite a discrepancy. I did find a relative through 23 and me which was interesting but through my fathers side. I don't know how I will ever learn about Ralph robert Saints mother. William had a wife and children in England so he couldn't have been legitimately married. On a happier note I found out that I am directly related to Stephen Hopkins on my fathers side. He was on the mayflower with his family and signed the mayflower compact. I big deal for Americans! I think these tests are fascinating and as more people are tested will become increasingly valuable. Kathy Wardwell > On Aug 10, 2015, at 9:39 AM, Debra Ewles via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Hello list > I have hit a brick wall in my research on my family tree and thought I might take a DNA TEST with Ancestry. Have any of the list used their service and do you think it's worth the hefty price tag > Your comments very much appreciated > Regards > Debra > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Sue First of all if what you say is correct, yes you do qualify as Anglo Indian. If you want scientific proof, you need to take the Family Finder test - Families in British India Society (FIBIS) have a DNA project at ftDNA that would suit you. See here for details - http://www.fibis.org/dna/ You don't have to be a FIBIS member to join the project, but you are more than welcome to join FIBIS as well. You might also like to watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4O1SmJOYMqs which is a video of a workshop on DNS, particularly that of Anglo Indians, that FIBIS presented at the recent WDYTYA in Birmingham. You may find that you have matches with those of us who have already tested this way. While there are still a significant number of Anglo Indians living in India - most of our families got out after Independence and now live in the UK, Australia, Canada - all over the English-speaking world. More info here - http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Anglo_Indian I hope this helps Joss

Yes, from what you have said you could be classed as Anglo-Indian if you wish. According to the Indian Government, a person who has any white heritage on the father's side and part-Indian or pure Indian on the mother's, is classed as an Anglo-Indian. However, if it is the other way about and a European woman married an Indian, then the child would be classed as Indian. For example, Sonia Gandhi's sons are classed as Indian even though she is Italian and her husband was Indian. However, formerly the term Anglo-Indian was used for people of purely white origin being born in India - like Rudyard Kipling, and the mixed-race community were referred to as Eurasian. However, at the turn of the last century Eurasians wished to be called Anglo-Indians too. The people of pure white descent born in India then began to call themselves "Domiciled Europeans." All a bit confusing what? James Sinclair jimsin12@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: india-request <india-request@rootsweb.com> To: india <india@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 8:24 Subject: INDIA Digest, Vol 10, Issue 131 Today's Topics: 1. Anglo Indian? (Sue Gutheridge) 2. Re: Anglo Indian? (pat benham) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 10:15:58 +0100 From: Sue Gutheridge <suegutheridge@hotmail.co.uk> Subject: [INDIA] Anglo Indian? To: "india-l@rootsweb.com" <india-l@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <DUB121-W171E03B53968F54AF4440AE7720@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi All, Not sure if anyone can answer this but apart from having a DNA test I wonder if I would come under the title of Anglo India or indeed have any Indian 'blood'. On my fathers side - My Great Grandfather was quarter Indian (his mother was half Indian his father white) On my fathers side his grandmother, the above wife - My Great Grandmothers mother and father were both half Indian ( they both had 1/2 Indian fathers. Their mothers were full Indian. Sorry if this is a little complicated but its the best I can explain it. Any info would great Sue

Sue, I think you are saying that you have a white mother, that your father's paternal grandfather was a quarter Indian and that that man's wife was three-quarters Indian. That would make your father's parent who was their child to be half Indian. Presuming all other branches of your ancestry were European, then your father was a quarter Indian and you are one-eighth. Therefore you can say you have Indian blood - or to put it in a more scientific way, you have Indian subcontinent DNA in you. I  would recommend using one of the DNA testing companies like Family Tree DNA or Ancestry to deliver a report on your admixture and to offer a large number of people who will match you, although often at some generational distance. I suppose you can call yourself Anglo-Indian, but that refers to a population group normally still living in that country. Interestingly they were often musicians. I wonder if you have any in your family? Pat Benham From: Sue Gutheridge via <india@rootsweb.com> To: "india-l@rootsweb.com" <india-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 8 August 2015, 10:15 Subject: [INDIA] Anglo Indian? Hi All, Not sure if anyone can answer this but apart from having a DNA test I wonder if I would come under the title of Anglo India or indeed have any Indian 'blood'. On my fathers side - My Great Grandfather was quarter Indian (his mother was half Indian his father white) On my fathers side his grandmother, the above wife - My Great Grandmothers mother and father were both half Indian ( they both had 1/2 Indian fathers. Their mothers were full Indian. Sorry if this is a little complicated but its the best I can explain it. Any info would great Sue                         ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi All, Not sure if anyone can answer this but apart from having a DNA test I wonder if I would come under the title of Anglo India or indeed have any Indian 'blood'. On my fathers side - My Great Grandfather was quarter Indian (his mother was half Indian his father white) On my fathers side his grandmother, the above wife - My Great Grandmothers mother and father were both half Indian ( they both had 1/2 Indian fathers. Their mothers were full Indian. Sorry if this is a little complicated but its the best I can explain it. Any info would great Sue

I found that to be true too, both for Churches and Schools. I emailed St John's Bangalore recently asking about a grave and got no response. However, some years earlier my father-in-law wrote to them (remember snail mail<bg>) with my email address in it, and we got an emailed response with the details he needed. So maybe try writing to them instead if they ignore an email. Graeme Simpson >However, many churches in India will not answer emails due to lack >of staff, (or other reasons) so it could be the same in Rangoon, >and you may need to visit to obtain copies of records. > >Cheers >Maureen

Gerald I covered this in my email of of 23 July. Here is a copy of my wording which is relevant to your question today. you should be able to trace him further as a member of the Bengal Army, either at the British Library or using FamilySearch microfilm. For details, see the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Bengal Army, section Records http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Bengal_Army#Records Cheers Maureen On 27/07/2015, at 9:01 PM, Gerry Herd via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello Listers > > > > I am researching William Morrison who I understand was a Farrier with the > Bengal Horse Artillery (early 19th Cent.) > > > > I would like to know if anyone would know where to access the regimental > records or where I can find more information > > > > Thanks > > > > Gerald Herd > > >

Hello Listers I am researching William Morrison who I understand was a Farrier with the Bengal Horse Artillery (early 19th Cent.) I would like to know if anyone would know where to access the regimental records or where I can find more information Thanks Gerald Herd --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com

the plot thickens In the 1809 edition of the annual army list (WO 65/59) there is a Captain Garrett Fitzsimmons in the 17th foot. I can see the first and last name are not quite right, but it is interesting that the surname is close in the same reg't. Ed of Falcon -----Original Message----- From: "Bernard Pavillon"@gmail via Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2015 4:59 PM To: INDIA@rootsweb.com Subject: [INDIA] Subject : HARRIS, 1812-1816 Ghazeepore /INDIA@rootsweb.com <mailto:INDIA@rootsweb.com>/ /Subject : HARRIS, 1812-1816 Ghazeepore/ /Maureen, Ed,/ /Thank you for your answers./ /Regarding Mary, Rebecca, George, I found on India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947, "database, FamilySearch./ /I did not know that Robert Harris Was a '' private '' in the 17th Foot. Maybe is it possible to find the same information (private) for Rebecca and George Harris, or other information if you have access to findmypast? I do not know how to get ////«The image for the 1812 baptism for Mary, which is on findmypast» / /; thank you if you can email me./ /What does '' private '' for the army?/ /I found a Robert H. born in 1786, another was born in 1783 (parish of Writtle): what is the good?/ /I have copies of the extract Wedding in Burbage and Paris, as well as the «Etats de Services» Death and Testament, (French Archive) Garret Luther Fitzsimons./ /In the English archives, see http://www.royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/have-you-a-tiger// /Fitzsimmons, Garrett/ /Rank: Major/ /Biography: Commissioned as Captain in 17th Foot 05/25/1803. Still serving as Captain as at 1805. Was serving with the Regiment as Major as at 1815./ /Regards / /bernard.pavillon@gmail.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello List Bernard, a private is the lowest rank of all in the Army, it is the rank of the common soldier when he joins the Army. The service record on findmypast indicated Robert Harris was a private for his entire Army service You can buy credits on findmypast and pay for sufficient credits to download the records you want. The record for the son George did not give any details of the father's occupation. I did not see a record for Rebecca on findmypast, but perhaps it is there of you spend time searching. I think it most unlikely that the widow of a private would marry a major and suspect the women involved are different people. Cheers Mauren On 27/07/2015, at 8:59 AM, "\"Bernard Pavillon\"@gmail via" <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > /INDIA@rootsweb.com <mailto:INDIA@rootsweb.com>/ > > /Subject : HARRIS, 1812-1816 Ghazeepore/ > > > /Maureen, Ed,/ > > /Thank you for your answers./ > > /Regarding Mary, Rebecca, George, I found on India Births and Baptisms, > 1786-1947, "database, FamilySearch./ > > /I did not know that Robert Harris Was a '' private '' in the 17th Foot. > Maybe is it possible to find the same information (private) for Rebecca > and George Harris, or other information if you have access to > findmypast? I do not know how to get ////«The image for the 1812 baptism > for Mary, which is on findmypast» / /; thank you if you can email me./ > > /What does '' private '' for the army?/ > > /I found a Robert H. born in 1786, another was born in 1783 (parish of > Writtle): what is the good?/ > > /I have copies of the extract Wedding in Burbage and Paris, as well as > the «Etats de Services» Death and Testament, (French Archive) Garret > Luther Fitzsimons./ > > /In the English archives, see > http://www.royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/have-you-a-tiger// > > /Fitzsimmons, Garrett/ > > /Rank: Major/ > > /Biography: Commissioned as Captain in 17th Foot 05/25/1803. Still > serving as Captain as at 1805. Was serving with the Regiment as Major as > at 1815./ > > /Regards / > > /bernard.pavillon@gmail.com/ > > > ------------------------------- >

/INDIA@rootsweb.com <mailto:INDIA@rootsweb.com>/ /Subject : HARRIS, 1812-1816 Ghazeepore/ /Maureen, Ed,/ /Thank you for your answers./ /Regarding Mary, Rebecca, George, I found on India Births and Baptisms, 1786-1947, "database, FamilySearch./ /I did not know that Robert Harris Was a '' private '' in the 17th Foot. Maybe is it possible to find the same information (private) for Rebecca and George Harris, or other information if you have access to findmypast? I do not know how to get ////«The image for the 1812 baptism for Mary, which is on findmypast» / /; thank you if you can email me./ /What does '' private '' for the army?/ /I found a Robert H. born in 1786, another was born in 1783 (parish of Writtle): what is the good?/ /I have copies of the extract Wedding in Burbage and Paris, as well as the «Etats de Services» Death and Testament, (French Archive) Garret Luther Fitzsimons./ /In the English archives, see http://www.royalleicestershireregiment.org.uk/have-you-a-tiger// /Fitzsimmons, Garrett/ /Rank: Major/ /Biography: Commissioned as Captain in 17th Foot 05/25/1803. Still serving as Captain as at 1805. Was serving with the Regiment as Major as at 1815./ /Regards / /bernard.pavillon@gmail.com/

Hello List Noel, great searching results. Jon, if you wanted to follow up possible Jewish connections, one possible avenue is the Synagogue in Bombay, which is ongoing. http://www.jacobsassoon.com and there are contact details on the website. However, it is a sad fact that very few churches etc in India actually reply to a mail/email enquiry, and require you to visit in person to find out information. Cheers Maureen On 26/07/2015, at 12:27 PM, Noel Clark via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > …. > None of the above may be directly helpful in solving the mystery of John > Topper and Eva Foorman, but I suggest that it indicates that Eva was of > Jewish origin. > > > >

Hello List Bernard. The image for the 1812 baptism for Mary, which is on findmypast, advises that Robert Harris was a private in the 17th Foot. There is also a military record on find my past, with images. He was discharged 18 July 1823 due to long service (25 years and 4 months I think it says), and was then age 40 and was born in the parish of Writtle? in Essex. He possibly may have received some extra tears for being India, for elsewhere it says he served in the Army 19 years and 350 days after the age of eighteen On another page it says (I thinK) Deceased DD 12-6-41 (DD perhaps is date of death) Another page says enlisted 17th Foot 13 December 1810 at the age of 28, previously was in Artillery…? from 5th August 1803 and served in the Army 19 years and 350 days after the age of eighteen Given he was a private the whole of his service, I am surprised his widow later married a Major. Also the possibility that Robert Harris ,retired private, may have died in 1841. Are you sure you have the same Mary Webster? Cheers Maureen On 26/07/2015, at 8:45 PM, "\"Bernard Pavillon\"@gmail via" <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: /Subject : 17th Foot - India 1812-1816(?) – The missing man Robert Harris : Soldier ? Officer? Birth (1780-1790?) ? Death?/ /[3 children born in India : Mary Harris (B1812-08-09_Fort William) Rebecca Harris (B1813-11-24_Ghazeepore) George Harris (B1816-01-01_Ghazeepore)]/

There is a book on the subject of Jews in India: 'Jews of the Raj' by Mavis Hyman. I don't see the surname Foorman in the index but the book may be of interest. David Railton -----Original Message----- From: india-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Maureen Evers via Sent: 26 July 2015 14:59 To: india@rootsweb.com; jon@topper.me.uk Subject: Re: [INDIA] John TOPPER etc. Hello List Noel, great searching results. Jon, if you wanted to follow up possible Jewish connections, one possible avenue is the Synagogue in Bombay, which is ongoing. http://www.jacobsassoon.com and there are contact details on the website. However, it is a sad fact that very few churches etc in India actually reply to a mail/email enquiry, and require you to visit in person to find out information. Cheers Maureen On 26/07/2015, at 12:27 PM, Noel Clark via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > .. > None of the above may be directly helpful in solving the mystery of > John Topper and Eva Foorman, but I suggest that it indicates that Eva > was of Jewish origin. > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

/INDIA@rootsweb.com <mailto:INDIA@rootsweb.com>/ /Subject : HARRIS, 1812-1816 Ghazeepore/ /Hello List,/ /Subject : 17th Foot - India 1812-1816(?) – The missing man Robert Harris : Soldier ? Officer? Birth (1780-1790?) ? Death?/ /[3 children born in India : Mary Harris (B1812-08-09_Fort William) Rebecca Harris (B1813-11-24_Ghazeepore) George Harris (B1816-01-01_Ghazeepore)]/ /Robert Harris M1811-05-21 Marriage Burbage (near Leicester) Mary Webster - my GGGGGmother - / /Mary Webster(widow) second marriage Luther Fitzsimons - M1831-05-07_Paris English Embassy [Luther Fitzsimons - the 17th Foot Major 1815]/ /Thank you for any help. Regards Bernard PAVILLON (France) bernard.pavillon@gmail.com/

Just a few points on this topic. - I cannot see any reference to the railway company on the FindMyPast marriage record for John Topper. - there is an additional record on FMP for the White/Swartzes marriage. It is dated 29th November 1910 and it corrects the groom's name to "Gilliss White." It also clearly shows the date of the original marriage to be 10th March 1908. - There's a 1918 marriage on FMP marriage for an Alick Shikman (son of Joseph), Railway Foreman or Fireman to Sonie Beelick(?). Suggest this might be Elick Shikman. - On Ancestry there's the burial of an Alec Joseph Shikman in Mumbai 18th October 1961, and of Sosel, Mrs. Shikman 2nd August 1958, from the Knesset Eliyahoo Synagogue, Chinchpokli Cemetery, with a note that the records were very hard to read. Chinchpokli is a Jewish Cemetery http://jewishphotolibrary.smugmug.com/ASIA/ASIAcentral/INDIA/MAHARASHTRA/INM umbaiChinchpokliJewishCem/i-CzJJC6b The synagogue was Orthodox Jewish, and both it and the synagogue in Poona were instituted by Jews from Baghdad. Suggest that these burials could be the records for Alick Shikman and his wife. - There's an on-line Jewish Cemetery Inventory at http://www.jewishgen.org/databases/cemetery/tree/cemlist.htm but I've never had any need to register and search it, but it might be useful. None of the above may be directly helpful in solving the mystery of John Topper and Eva Foorman, but I suggest that it indicates that Eva was of Jewish origin.

Hello List Angela, you could try contacting the Catholic Archdiocese of Rangoon http://www.yangonarchdiocese.org However, many churches in India will not answer emails due to lack of staff, (or other reasons) so it could be the same in Rangoon, and you may need to visit to obtain copies of records. Cheers Maureen On 24/07/2015, at 6:28 AM, angela etwaroo via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Has anybody had any luck obtaining certificates from St Mary's Cathedral in Rangoon. > Who do you write to and how do you make payment. > Thank you for any help. > Angela (Monteen) Etwaroo >

“Fuhrmann” is an ordinary German word for “driver”, and “Foorman” looks like an anglicisation of this. I suspect it is a typical name of the kind adopted by Jews when obliged to take German surnames by the Austrian law of 1787 or the subsequent similar legislation in the other German states. Best wishes Mark O'Sullivan

Hello List Jon, both the Hopper and White marriage records are available as images on find my past. Both marriages appear to have been performed in, or by, the Office of the Marriage Registrar. The White marriage record is as follows: 10th /(18th ?) March 1908. Married in the Office of the Marriage Registrar Poona.The groom George White was a Foreman GIPR, of Bombay. The bride Polly Swartzes was of Poona. Witnesses W Townsend and Elick Shikman. The fact that both marriages were in the Office of the Marriage Registrar suggests that the couples were not both Anglicans, Roman Catholic or belonged to the Church of Scotland. One or both were possibly not Lutheran, as at least some Lutherans attended the Church of Scotland. Both grooms were employed by the GIPR. The impression I get is that people came from all over the world to be employed on the railways. The brides Eva Foorman and Polly Swartzes could have been children of other railway employees and perhaps born anywhere in the world. I do wonder whether there is some Jewish connection- perhaps others may be able to comment whether they think the name of one of the witnesses at the White marriage Elick Shikman sounds Jewish. However, even if there is a Jewish connection, I cannot suggest anything from a records perspective, apart from the fact that there were synagogues in both Bombay and Poona. Cheers Maureen On 24/07/2015, at 2:09 AM, Jon Topper <jon@topper.me.uk> wrote: > Hi Maureen, > > Thanks for replying. > > When he married in 1911, John Topper was employed as a railway guard. The certificate suggests they were married in the "Office of the Marriage Registration, Bombay", if I'm reading the handwriting correctly! I don't see any mention of a church on that paperwork. http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=234112 > > The White/Swartzes wedding took place between 1906 and 1911 (I don't know where I got that 1930 date from), in Poona: http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_detail.php?id=233016 - this appears to be an index transcript rather than scans of the original certificate, so I don't know the specific church or George's occupation at this point. > > > > Jon >

Hello List Desmond, the death registration details would be held by the Kolkata Municipal Corporation, nothing to do with Delhi. https://www.kmcgov.in/KMCPortal/jsp/KMCBirthDeathHome.jsp However, I have never heard of anyone being able to obtain a copy of a certificate by mail/email. The only cases I have heard about have been as a result of a personal visit, (and this was elsewhere in India, not in Kolkata}. Depending how the records are stored, you may also need to know the area of Calcutta he died in. If you are willing to spend money, you could investigate whether a company such as YourManIn India, which has a document procurement service, could act on your behalf. https://www.yourmaninindia.com/index.php. Please note I have never used this service myself, but heard about it some years ago from someone who also had not personally used it. Most churches/institutions in India will not respond to mail/emails. You are very lucky if you receive a reply. Cheers Maureen On 23/07/2015, at 7:37 PM, desmond mardle via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I have at last ascertained the place where my maternal grandfather, Sydney O'Hara Dawes is buried which is the Lower Circular Road Cemetery, Calcutta. Thanks to Beverly of FIBIS, she was able to inform me that the appropriate Pottah No is 5445/64 0.5.1935 and that he was interred on 2.6.1966. This information was confirmed by the Christian Burial Board. > My quest was to now try and get a copy of the death Certificate for Sydney. I have emailed the the Registrar General, India, in Delhi. Unfortunately, no reply. Naturally, I also requested information from the CBB..no reply,not even address of where I might get a Death Certificate for Sydney. > Previously, I'd given information to 'rootsweb' suggesting that Sydney had died about 1945/6. How far out can one get? > I'm now requesting help to acquire a Death Certificate for Sydney, born Madras 1878, died 1966, Calcutta. Appreciatively, Desmond Mardle. > >