Can anyone tell me if Moulmein (Mawlamyaing) India was a British-administered area of India in 1832. An ancestor of mine, born about that year, was seeking naturalisation in NSW in 1879 on the proviso of being a citizen of India born in Moulmein. Thank you for any assistance. Fred ..

I think that Rosemary’s message (below) exemplifies the (in-my-opinion) awful situation regarding British citizenship and nationality status as it used to be when the Home Office made their determinations on a case-by-case and often capricious basis. The British Library is PACKED with records of people from all backgrounds asking about citizenship or passports, particularly after 1947. Since members of my family were among those, I have researched many of the records and am struck by the arbitrary nature of the decisions. It is appalling. People, even siblings, with exactly the same circumstances were treated differently. One good thing about the European Union is that it forced member countries to make transparent laws about these things and to make the laws apply to everyone equally. I am not sure if the EU has been completely successful in Britain’s case, but I think things are better and much less arbitrary than they used to be. I hate to think what will happen if Britain leaves the EU. I suppose it will go back to the same old arbitrary and personal decisions about immigration and citizenship. Several members of this list have described how personal appeals had to be made to the Home Office in order to get a good resolution to the issue of their status. That system was/is completely undemocratic and unfair and creates openings for corruption, racism, sexism, and just plain prejudice. Anthea Tillyer (who was treated just like everybody else when applying for US citizenship) On Aug 17, 2015, at 9:52, Rosemary Taylor via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: My father was in the British Army, sent out from the UK to India, he met and married my mother, who was born in India of a British father. My Birth Certificate states: Born OUT of the UK, but my mother with great forethought had our births registered at the British Consul. I was able to get a British passport, but my daughter was denied entry to the UK, as she was married to an Indian citizen. I successfully argued with the Home Office, that as my father was sent to India, and did not go there of his own volition, his children had no choice but to be born in India. He registered my birth with the army, and later my mother did the same with the consul, therefore I should be deemed to have been born in the UK! The Home Office accepted my argument, an official from the Home Office rang me, apologised, and said my daughter and granddaughter would be allowed to settle in the UK.

Cathy, was your father born before 1947, when Rawalpindi was part of the British Empire? Everything I have read seems to indicate indicates that he would have had British nationality, so I would be interested to know if I have been misinterpreting things. Cheers Maureen On 16/08/2015, at 11:38 PM, cathy via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi > > I agree with Noel, no simple answer......... > > When I was born in a military hospital in Germany I had no right to British > nationality. . I have papers which say I was "stateless" > My mother was born in Ireland and my father in Rawalpindi. > > My father was furious, he was a British Army officer. He flew to England to > the Home Office and a year later he managed to get paperwork through and get > me a passport > Whilst fighting for this he discovered HE didn't have British nationality > either! His mother was born near Quetta, to a Scottish father and a mother > born in the USA to Welsh man! > His father in Darjeeling to parents also born in India. > > A real muddle..............I found out years later that I could have had > Irish nationality automatically but he wanted a British daughter. > > Cathy > Now in Devon! > > > > > >

James said: The only sure way of establishing your British Citizenship is to be BORN in the United Kingdom, or applying for British Citizenship once you have settled in the UK for the required number of years. James Sinclair jimsin12@aol.com My experience was somewhat different! My father was in the British Army, sent out from the UK to India, he met and married my mother, who was born in India of a British father. My Birth Certificate states: Born OUT of the UK, but my mother with great forethought had our births registered at the British Consul. I was able to get a British passport, but my daughter was denied entry to the UK, as she was married to an Indian citizen. I successfully argued with the Home Office, that as my father was sent to India, and did not go there of his own volition, his children had no choice but to be born in India. He registered my birth with the army, and later my mother did the same with the consul, therefore I should be deemed to have been born in the UK! The Home Office accepted my argument, an official from the Home Office rang me, apologised, and said my daughter and granddaughter would be allowed to settle in the UK. You never know until you try!! Rosemary ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello List, Dear Friends, I am trying to trace my Gt.Gt. Grandfather William Richardson. I have very little information, other than that he originally came from Claypole. Lincs. I am trying for information at the Lincolnshire Archives. Unfortunately I have very little details, other that he was a Sgt. In H.M. 69th. Regt. He served in India, and I should imagine died there. He was married to a Bridget Murtough, and again I have to presume that they were married in India. Bridget Murtough may have been born in India, and might have been married before she married William. They had a daughter Mary, who married my Gt.Gt. Grandfather Godlieb Williams. I have a date, 29th. Apr. 1830, and I presume that the place was Madras, as certainly Godlieb Williams hailed from Madras. As Gt/Grandfather William Williams having landed there in 1814 from Bristol. I think William was with the Madras Artillery. As William Richardson was a Sgt. with H.M. 69th. Regt. He must have seen some service, and I would really like to know if there are any records of his military service. Any medals? Kind regards, Geoffrey Williams Sheffield. U.K.

I remember my aunt who was born near Lahore in 1913 had to toddle down to the Pakistan High Commissioner's office in London each time she needed to renew her British UK passport, even into the 1990s! Nick On 17 August 2015 at 04:30, Lyn Smith via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hello listers, > > My 3xgreat grandfather was born in 1852, to British-born mother and father > who had married in Lahore in 1848. Father in the EIC. > > It had never occurred to me that he would be Indian! It was probably never > an issue he had to deal with, but you have all made me wonder! > > Any comments? > > Lyn > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

I have found this marriage in the Madras church records: On 17 February 1896 at Our Lady of Victories Church, Kolar Gold Fields Samuel Walters, age 23, bachelor, turner, Eurasian, Coromandel Camp, son of Samuels Walters and Bridget Anthony, age 15, spinster, Eurasian, Nundydroog, daughter of Edward Anthony Witnesses: F N Fernandez and E McMahon I think that Bridget was the daughter of James Edward Anthony and Annie Elizabeth de Silva who married in 1881. Annie married a second time, in 1891, to William Henry Gilbert. I am trying to connect this Bridget with a Bridget who later married James Smith who died in a mining accident at the Kolar Gold Fields in 1909. There does not appear to be a record of this marriage. Does anyone know anything about any of these people? David Railton

Hi Maureen Yes Daddy was born in 1922 in Pindi. His mother May Charlotte Nye Picton Clark was born in Sibi and her father was John Clark born in Glasgow and mother Justina Picton Davies Born in Charlottesville USA to Welsh and Scot parents. May Married William James Cox who was born in Darjeeling and his father was Harry , a driver on the DHR born in Calcutta and Jesse Frampton born In Rawalpindi. No idea why Daddy had problems - he had been in the military straight from school and travelled on military papers apparently. First came over to England in 1944 with the RA to join the Airborne Parachute regt , went to Palestine and eventually was sent to Germany where I was born in 1960. It was only when we were coming back to the UK in 1961/62 and he tried to get me a passport he had problems. They added me to his passport and in big letter it says STATELESS ! My two brothers were born in England in 54 and 55 and had no problems at all. Ron now lives in Canada and has a Canadian passport and Jonathan has dual nationality and travels on his Irish passport. So I am the only one still with a British passport. Best wishes Cathy -----Original Message----- From: Maureen Evers [mailto:maureen.evers@bigpond.com] Sent: 17 August 2015 07:07 To: cathy; india@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INDIA] re Citizenship Cathy, was your father born before 1947, when Rawalpindi was part of the British Empire? Everything I have read seems to indicate indicates that he would have had British nationality, so I would be interested to know if I have been misinterpreting things. Cheers Maureen On 16/08/2015, at 11:38 PM, cathy via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote:

I too was denied a British Passport when I wanted to immigrate from India to the UK. Although my father was British, and so was his father, they were both born in India - so 3 generations born in India did not qualify for British citizenship. Then I was surprised when the Indian passport authorities denied me an Indian passport, on the grounds that I was born in India when it was still part of the British Empire! I was offered a certificate to say I was "stateless" but was warned by the UK High Com that if I was stateless, I would not be able to immigrate to the UK because the immigration scheme was only open to British Commonwealth citizens! I was between a rock and a hard place. However, when my father confirmed that he had travelled to the UK on a British EMPIRE passport, I was granted an Indian passport on these grounds. The rule seemed to be that if you remained on in India for three years after Independence, and didn't register as a British Subject, all former British Subjects were able to apply for an Indian passport. This British Subject status seemed to have no value, as thousands of Kenyan and Ugandan Asians who held British Subject passports were expelled from those countries, and some argy-bargy followed as to whether they should be allowed to settle in the UK, as India refused to have them back, saying they were British Subjects and the UK should have them. The Falkland Islanders are in the same situation as their British Subject status has been revoked, and replaced with something else. Also there are thousands of Hong Kong Chinese who held British Subject passports, and seem to be in no-man's-land regarding their national status. They would not be allowed to settle in the UK as former British Subjects. The only sure way of establishing your British Citizenship is to be BORN in the United Kingdom, or applying for British Citizenship once you have settled in the UK for the required number of years. James Sinclair jimsin12@aol.com James Sinclair jimsin12@aol.com

I wish to fill gaps in the life of Christopher Dowdall. The India Office Records L/MIL/12/113] contain the following details: Entered the Service: 1854 Surname: Dowdall Forename(s): Christopher Rank or Situation Private 2nd European Light Infantry Regimental Number: 2249 Occupation before Enlisting: Labourer Town and County: Dublin, Dublin Where first enlisted: Dublin Date of Attestation: 14 August 1854 Term of enlisted service: 10 years In what ship arrived from Europe, or Service Entertained: York Year of Arrival or When that service entertained: 1854 On 18 January 1864 he enrolled at Melbourne, Australia, with the Melbourne Contingent of Taranaki Military Settlers. He received a land grant in New Zealand in return for military service. He died of natural causes in Hawera, New Zealand on 22 June 1873, and was buried in the Hawera Cemetery. What information is available about the time he spent in in India? How and when did he get to Australia? Thanks. Paddy

I think we have to be careful about understanding the difference between nationality and citizenship; the two words should not be thought of as interchangeable although, unfortunately, many authorities do just that! I agree with Maureen that a child born in a British-administered area of India in 1893 would have acquired British nationality by virtue of being born wthin British territory, because nationality is a territorial concept. However, I am not convinced that such a child would have been deemed a "British citizen" and enjoy the "rights" of British citizenship, such as residence in the United Kingdom and electoral franchise. Citizenship is a political concept rather than a territorial one. The laws for the UK have been changed many times, as pointed out in the Wikipedia article, and 1893 falls between 1870 and 1914; various changes were made in both years. Annoyingly, the Wikipedia article also brings in the concept of being a "British subject", and this is covered in another Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship. At this stage I'm not convinced that there is a simple answer to your question.

Anyone born in India during British rule was a British Subject, even ethnic Indians. Those of British parentage too were considered British Subjects, and not British Citizens. The laws are complex, but to my understanding, if your father was a British Citizen (i.e. born in the UK) you might be classed as such, but I'm not at all sure about this. James Sinclair jimsin12@aol.com -----Original Message----- From: india-request <india-request@rootsweb.com> To: india <india@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, 16 Aug 2015 8:14 Subject: INDIA Digest, Vol 10, Issue 139 Today's Topics: 1. Citizenship (Eardley Downling) 2. DNA (Warren B Abbott) 3. Re: Citizenship (Anthea Tillyer) 4. Re: Citizenship (Maureen Evers) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 17:45:25 -0400 From: Eardley Downling <ehdowling@sympatico.ca> Subject: [INDIA] Citizenship To: <india@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <BLU436-SMTP141F379B569640FDB250F2ACC7B0@phx.gbl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Greetings! A child born in Calcutta in 1893, Father British mother Indian or other. Is the child a British Citizen. Any difference if the child is male or female. What if the Mother is British. Regards E.P.Dowling ------------------------------

Hi I agree with Noel, no simple answer......... When I was born in a military hospital in Germany I had no right to British nationality. . I have papers which say I was "stateless" My mother was born in Ireland and my father in Rawalpindi. My father was furious, he was a British Army officer. He flew to England to the Home Office and a year later he managed to get paperwork through and get me a passport Whilst fighting for this he discovered HE didn't have British nationality either! His mother was born near Quetta, to a Scottish father and a mother born in the USA to Welsh man! His father in Darjeeling to parents also born in India. A real muddle..............I found out years later that I could have had Irish nationality automatically but he wanted a British daughter. Cathy Now in Devon!

Interesting details via link. Hope all is well with you all. Cheers Pete Sent from my iPad > On 16 Aug 2015, at 10:49, Lorraine Sherry via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > The Lost Cousin newsletter explains DNA testing understanding its myths. > Follow the links > > http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/midjul15news.htm > Salaams to all, > So with all the recent info on DNA testing, who gives the most > believable and reliable test? I can't decide, please give me your opinion. > And as to cost, which one would be most "cost effective" so to speak. > Warren Abbott > Ontario > Canada > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The other complexity is that the right to enter British territory has never mapped precisely onto "British citizen" or "British subject status” (I gather that there were no general controls over immigration to Britain until 1914). Mark > On 16 Aug 2015, at 11:39, india-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_subject>

A correction. I must be getting a bit senile! I have just looked back at the DNA test I took a couple of years ago and find that it was with Family Tree, and not with Ancestry as I had thought, so I will no doubt be sent almost the same information, but concentrating on the maternal side this time. What is difficult is understanding exactly what on earth all the information means. It is not at all clear and may not be worth the expense. If I find anything at all about any Indian DNA I will let you all know. Dian

Friends I thought I would jump in here in hope of helping a bit on the DNA question. Warren asks who gives the most believable and reliable test. Well, from my experience all the testing companies deliver sound scientific lab results. It's not a question of reliability as they will all show you the same thing. Where there can be differences it is in the area of interpretation and the system of showing all the people whom you match. I have tested with Family Tree DNA, both maternal (mtDNA) and paternal (Y-DNA) - and autosomal, which is called Family Finder on FTDNA. The mtDNA and Y-DNA are mostly of interest to show you geographical historic origins down your direct male-only and female-only lines. Don't expect to easily solve any family tree mysteries through these as although you will receive many pages listing other people who match you, the common ancestor you have with even close matches can be several centuries in the past. For immediate family questions, the autosomal test is far more interesting and can solve things for you if you are lucky. The point is that the autosomal test looks at the whole mix of all the family lines within you. It will help if you can persuade any of your known 1st, 2nd, or 3rd cousins to test too. When the matches come in it helps to have your cousins there, as if any match is in common with them it will identify which part of your family they link to. In order to maximise the number of possible matches some people test with all the three main companies. However there is a wonderful new free resource called GEDmatch to which you can upload your results from any company. It means that although I was with FTDNA I can compare myself on GEDmatch with results from Ancestry.com. The downside is that it depends on people having taken the step of uploading to the site. However through that site I have discovered provable 3rd cousins with shared great-great-grandparents. These are now friends in regular email contact with me and each other. Pat Benham benhampat@yahoo.co.uk ------------------------------------------- On Sat, 15/8/15, Warren B Abbott via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: Subject: [INDIA] DNA To: "India Message" <INDIA-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Saturday, 15 August, 2015, 23:33 Salaams to all,     So with all the recent info on DNA testing, who gives the most believable and reliable test? I can't decide, please give me your opinion. And as to cost, which one would be most "cost effective" so to speak. Warren Abbott Ontario Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Warren All these tests are expensive and after my Ancestry test I did wonder if it was worth the trouble. They told me I was Rather a large number of strange people got in touch with me as they had a distant relationship discovered by their DNA testing. One Canadian, however, was related to me distantly through my paternal Scottish grandparents. No-one turned up with an Indian connection, and I already knew that I had a small percentage of Indian DNA (in fact I mentioned India when I applied). I gave up for a while and then I heard that the Familysearch tests were reliable, so have applied for a mtDNA test, hoping that I would at least find out which part of India my maternal 3xGt Grandmother came from. Yes, it is expensive, and I may not get anywhere at all, as far as an Indian connection is concerned, but I'll let you all know if it is any help. Has anyone found a DNA test useful for Indian ancestors? Dian > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2015 18:33:45 -0400 > From: "Warren B Abbott" <wbabbott@muskoka.com> > Subject: [INDIA] DNA > To: "India Message" <INDIA-L@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <55CC2EB74D9C4B1198C2B78C930968DF@warrene5f78b6f> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Salaams to all, > So with all the recent info on DNA testing, who gives the most > believable and reliable test? I can't decide, please give me your opinion. > And as to cost, which one would be most "cost effective" so to speak. > Warren Abbott > Ontario > Canada

Hello List Eardley, my understanding is that as Calcutta in 1893 was part of the British Empire, the child would have British citizenship who ever the father or mother was. If the birth had been in a Princely State, not part of the British Empire, the child's nationality would have been the same as the father's. There is a Wikipedia page “History of British nationality law”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_British_nationality_law Cheers Maureen On 16/08/2015, at 7:45 AM, Eardley Downling via <india@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Greetings! A child born in Calcutta in 1893, Father British mother Indian > or other. Is the child a British Citizen. Any difference if the child is > male or female. What if the Mother is British. > > Regards > > E.P.Dowling > >

The Lost Cousin newsletter explains DNA testing understanding its myths. Follow the links http://lostcousins.com/newsletters2/midjul15news.htm Salaams to all, So with all the recent info on DNA testing, who gives the most believable and reliable test? I can't decide, please give me your opinion. And as to cost, which one would be most "cost effective" so to speak. Warren Abbott Ontario Canada ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message