Hello List Bev said: I hope this question isn't too off topic but with Christmas coming up I wondered whether any listers had suggestions for books that are a good read on the subject of the British in India 17/1800's? My family in India were within the Bengal Presidency/NWP areas, living in many of the major towns from and west of Allahabad & Delhi into what is now Pakistan (Rawlpindi, Lahore, Sukkur & Chaman).And going as far north Simla & Dalhousie. So life and information around these areas are my key focus of interest. Books that include photos of e time would also be of particular interest. The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Life in India http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Life_in_India includes a link about a book called Mehtars and Marigolds by Barbara Dinner 2009, about four generations of her family from 1874, starting in Simla. There is also a link about a book "Farewell Raj: Witness to End of Empire" by Tony Hearne There is also the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Society Reading List http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Society_reading_list For other reading list pages, see http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Category:Recommended_reading or http://tinyurl.com/23a3pww The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Photographer has a section on books http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Photographer Richard mentioned books by Kipling. Many of these are available to read online in the FIBIS Fibiwiki page Rudyard Kipling http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Rudyard_Kipling Cheers Maureen (Sydney)

I suggest Dennis Kincaid. British Social Life in India 1608-1937 Margaret MacMillan. Women of the Raj J.K. Stanford. Ladies in the Sun: The Memsahib's India 1790-1860 Hilton Brown. The Sahibs: The Life and Ways of the British in India as recorded by Themselves There are many others, but these are just a few from my library. Hope this helps. Keith Smith

Beverley I have researched that timeline myself. Some good books are: A Squire of Hindoostan by Narindar Saroop which is the life and times of William Linaeus Gardner, who raised Gardner's Light Horse and fought with Holkar and the Brits. Hindustan under Free Lances. A history of mercenaries in India between 1775 and 1825. I think it's by H G Keane. The FIBIS have copies of Narindar Saroops book. Gardner's life was extremely interesting. The biography is a tad sentimental given mr Saroops connection to the regiment but it is a good read. They are old bur can be found thru Amazon. Regards Richard Hayter Sent from my iPhone On 9 Dec 2010, at 11:48, Beverley Jarvis-Pearson <jarvispearson@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Hi List, > > I hope this question isn't too off topic but with Christmas coming up I wondered whether any listers had suggestions for books that are a good read on the subject of the British in India 17/1800's? > > My family in India were within the Bengal Presidency/NWP areas, living in many of the major towns from and west of Allahabad & Delhi into what is now Pakistan (Rawlpindi, Lahore, Sukkur & Chaman). > An going as far north Simla & Dalhousie. > So life and information around these areas are my key focus of interest. > Books that include photos of e time would also be of particular interest. > > To date I have read a few books that cover the Mutiny in general and also White Mughal (fictional/historical) but would love any recommendations to put on my Christmas wish list. > > And to end this email, I just wanted to say thank you all listers who have helped answer questions I have posted this year (too many to mention) and wish you all a very Merry Christmas. > > Bev > (in UK researching India family names: ELLISON, ROBBINS, HINE, BERESFORD, BLYTH, MADDEN, NAVIN & REA) > ===== India Mailing List ===== > > Families in British India Society: http://www.fibis.org > > > Archives for this list can be found at: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=INDIA > and at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/INDIA > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > For more information please call First4IT on 01423 859370 > >

One of my favourites is 'Traveller's India' edited by H K Kaul. It is not about the British in India but about the British view of India. It is a collection of short extracts from the works of British and other writers of the 15th to 20th centuries under about 400 different topic headings. Excellent as a work of reference or as a book just to dip into over and over again. Reasonably priced new and second hand copies are available from internet book sellers. David

Hi Ann, Thanks for the personal recommendation, exactly what I was looking for. Arvind the Google Books suggestion is a good one but in this instance I am looking to buy some books rather than view online - I thought books read by others would be a good starting point as I can and do spend hours just trawling through Google Books for ancestry name mentions. Fun and frustration all at the same time :) Maureen - thanks for the pointer back to FIBIS there are certainly a couple of books on the reading lists that are now in my Amazon basket :) Bev > Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 12:19:47 +0000 > From: achidley01253@btinternet.com > To: india@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [INDIA] Book Recommendations > > If you can get your hands on: > > "Plain Tales from the Raj" edited by Charles Allen the illustrated version or > the paperback of the same name. > If you have a choice go for the illustrated version, if you can afford it, both! > > Also by Charles Allen > Raj a Scrapbook of British India 1877-1947 > > The above book includes a synopsis of a 1917 film as follows, the spelling > mistakes are copied from the narrative: > > The Golden Beetle:- A thrilling drama of 3 parts, 5000 feet long. Some > important scenes of the subject:- George was captured in a temple under the cave > of the high mountains, and taking out the blood from his arm writes a massage > for help on a piece of his shirt. An eagle while taking away the massage was > shot by Murray, who dares to the rescue of George by reading the same message. > The fight on horse back and thrilling pursuit. Murray was burried alive in the > jungle upto his shoulders, and while, being eaten by wild eagles, saved by two > Indian hunters. George was escaped by Murray from the high mountanous caves, by > the acrobatic feet of 4 men descending a precipice in human ladder fashion, and > while going to London their boat was under the mercy of the waves by an > accidental storm in the sea. However they landed on a mountain, where they > suffered by the amazing adventures of Lions. They reached London by the help of > a steamer, and while going home, George was again kidnapped by Golden Beetle > clan, was tied, merciless on the railroad. An express train crossing over his > body and with many other thrilling and sensational scenes, which makes the > audiance to stand thair hairs on end, this story, ends with happy results. > > They just don't make em like that any more! > ===== India Mailing List ===== > > Families in British India Society: http://www.fibis.org > > > Archives for this list can be found at: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=INDIA > and at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/INDIA > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

If you can get your hands on: "Plain Tales from the Raj" edited by Charles Allen the illustrated version or the paperback of the same name. If you have a choice go for the illustrated version, if you can afford it, both! Also by Charles Allen Raj a Scrapbook of British India 1877-1947 The above book includes a synopsis of a  1917 film as follows, the spelling mistakes are copied from the narrative: The Golden Beetle:- A thrilling drama of 3 parts, 5000 feet long.  Some important scenes of the subject:- George was captured in a temple under the cave of the high mountains, and taking out the blood from his arm writes a massage for help on a piece of his shirt.  An eagle while taking away the massage was shot by Murray, who dares to the rescue of George by reading the same message.  The fight on horse back and thrilling pursuit.  Murray was burried alive in the jungle upto his shoulders, and while, being eaten by wild eagles, saved by two Indian hunters.  George was escaped by Murray from the high mountanous caves, by the acrobatic feet of 4 men descending a precipice in human ladder fashion, and while going to London their boat was under the mercy of the waves by an accidental storm in the sea.  However they landed on a mountain, where they suffered by the amazing adventures of Lions.  They reached London by the help of a steamer, and while going home, George was again kidnapped by Golden Beetle clan, was tied, merciless on the railroad.  An express train crossing over his body and with many other thrilling and sensational scenes, which makes the audiance to stand thair hairs on end, this story, ends with happy results. They just don't make em like that any more!

I'd recommend the poems and short stories of Rudyard Kipling if you haven't already read them... Richard x ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverley Jarvis-Pearson" <jarvispearson@hotmail.com> To: <india@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:48 AM Subject: [INDIA] Book Recommendations > > Hi List, > > I hope this question isn't too off topic but with Christmas coming up I > wondered whether any listers had suggestions for books that are a good > read on the subject of the British in India 17/1800's? > > My family in India were within the Bengal Presidency/NWP areas, living in > many of the major towns from and west of Allahabad & Delhi into what is > now Pakistan (Rawlpindi, Lahore, Sukkur & Chaman). > An going as far north Simla & Dalhousie. > So life and information around these areas are my key focus of interest. > Books that include photos of e time would also be of particular interest. > > To date I have read a few books that cover the Mutiny in general and also > White Mughal (fictional/historical) but would love any recommendations to > put on my Christmas wish list. > > And to end this email, I just wanted to say thank you all listers who have > helped answer questions I have posted this year (too many to mention) and > wish you all a very Merry Christmas. > > Bev > (in UK researching India family names: ELLISON, ROBBINS, HINE, BERESFORD, > BLYTH, MADDEN, NAVIN & REA) > ===== India Mailing List ===== > > Families in British India Society: http://www.fibis.org > > > Archives for this list can be found at: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=INDIA > and at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/INDIA > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3304 - Release Date: 12/08/10 >

Hi List, I hope this question isn't too off topic but with Christmas coming up I wondered whether any listers had suggestions for books that are a good read on the subject of the British in India 17/1800's? My family in India were within the Bengal Presidency/NWP areas, living in many of the major towns from and west of Allahabad & Delhi into what is now Pakistan (Rawlpindi, Lahore, Sukkur & Chaman). An going as far north Simla & Dalhousie. So life and information around these areas are my key focus of interest. Books that include photos of e time would also be of particular interest. To date I have read a few books that cover the Mutiny in general and also White Mughal (fictional/historical) but would love any recommendations to put on my Christmas wish list. And to end this email, I just wanted to say thank you all listers who have helped answer questions I have posted this year (too many to mention) and wish you all a very Merry Christmas. Bev (in UK researching India family names: ELLISON, ROBBINS, HINE, BERESFORD, BLYTH, MADDEN, NAVIN & REA)

Beverley, If you do not mind reading books off the computer screen, you could visit books.google.com and fish out full-view digitalized books available there by inputting suggestive words in the search box. I tried 'reminiscences Indian official' and got several thousand hits. You could then quickly go through the list and select what interests you. Arvind Kolhatkar, Toronto, December 09, 2010.

Maureen Said The Family Search beta site is https://beta.familysearch.org. (At one time it was slightly different). Scroll down the page a bit and click on Asia and Middle East. This will take you to a page where there are links for India Baptism, Marriages and Burials. Thank you Maureen. Up and running again. Regards Michael Quin-Conroy

Hello List Michael said: I have been experiencing problems with my searches of late, in that I get no response. I have tried refreshing the site to no advantage. Am I alone in this or is there a problem with the site. The Family Search beta site is https://beta.familysearch.org. (At one time it was slightly different). Scroll down the page a bit and click on Asia and Middle East. This will take you to a page where there are links for India Baptism, Marriages and Burials Cheers Maureen (Sydney)

Can anyone on the List inform me if there is somewhere that has recorded the deaths that occurred during the Japanese invasion and occupation of Burma. I am particularly looking for my grandfather, Arthur Cornelius, his son, Donald and his sister Mabel George. Mabel's husband, Clarence, is listed in the casualties of the trek. The only information that I have is from my aunt who as a young girl managed to get the last plane out with her mother, Lena Cornelius. They said that Chinese pilots brought Mabel's cases but were unable to communicate what had happened to her. Thank you, David Cornelius

Greetings, I am looking for information about my grandfather Eric Parker. He joined the Indian Army in 1918 and was posted to the Corps of Guides. He was in Afghanistan in 1919 and Waziristan in 1920. In 1921 he was sent to Tibet as Captain of the 90th Punjabis where he was the Escort Commander for the British Trade Agent at Gyantse. He returned to India in 1922. He married Minnie Armstrong 2 Jan 1923 in Calcutta . By this time he had left the army and they both returned to Yatung, Tibet to run a trading post. They returned to Madras in 1925 where he was a manager of a tea factory. I have no more information about what he did until 1940 when he apparantly returned to the Indian Army. According to his personal writings he was sent to the Adjutant General's branch of Army headquarters. He was then sent to Poona in 1944 as AAG and then to Bombay in 1946 also as AAG and was there during the Indian Naval Mutiny. I have some information about his time in Tibet but virtually no information about his time in India. I live in Canada so I do not have access to the British Library. I was wondering if anyone could advise me or point me in a direction so I might at least be able to confirm some of the information I have. Or maybe have some ideas on where I could look for further info. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you, Ann

Hello List Previous correspondence has been under the title Fatehgarh and the mutiny by F. R Cosens; 1 edition; First publish... Eileen has indicated that William Wilks was a private in the 13th Foot at the time of the Mutiny. Has she checked out British Army records, in particular soldiers discharge records available on Find My Past? The FIBIS Fibiwiki page British Army has details http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=British_Army The FIBIS Fibiwiki page 13th Regiment of Foot has a history of the Regiment to 1867 http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=13th_Regiment_of_Foot Eileen does not indicate whether William Wilks was still in the Army when he went to Lhasa and what possible date range applies The FIBIS Fibiwiki page Tibet http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=Tibet has details of a book "Britain and Tibet 1765-1947: A Select Annotated Bibliography" which may possibly refer to the British Dignitary held in Lhasa. Another possibility which may refer to the British Dignitary, is a book mentioned on the FIBIS Fibiwiki page "People in the North West and nearby countries" http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php?title=People_in_the_North_West_and_nearby_co untries called Tournament of Shadows Cheers Maureen (Sydney) -----Original Message----- From: india-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:india-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Robert Goodlad Sent: Tuesday, 7 December 2010 10:51 AM To: india@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [INDIA] Fatehgarh and the mutiny by F. R Cosens; 1 edition; First publish... Dear Tim, Thank you so much for your Email.You were quite right in thinking that my asking for information was more of a general nature. William Wilks did fight in the Indian Mutiny and was awarded the Mutiny Medal, his Number was 2975 , the top one you mentioned. He was present at Balwah 17th to 25th April 1858. At the capture of Fort Nugger 29th April 1858.Present at the action at Almora 9th June 1858 and present at the action at Toolsepore 23rd December 1858. The reason I got in touch with you was hoping that you might be able to help me. William Wilks was given a very large mansion in Jalapahar,. Darjeeling 'For some special services rendered to the British Government'. My father, unfortunately he is not alive anymore, always told us that William went in disguise into Lhasa, Tibet to rescue a British Dignitary who was being held prisoner there. They were betrayed and imprisioned but managed to escape and all of them returned to India'.I have tried to find out anything about ! this incident but have had no luck. So when I read your Email, I thought 'give it a try you never know' . I hope you don't mind. Keeping my fingers crossed. Looking forward to your reply. Eileen

I have been experiencing problems with my searches of late, in that I get noe response. I have tried refrewshing the site to no advantage. Am I alone in this or is there a problem with the site. Regards Michael Quin-Conroy

Hi Michael I have found this problem several times. I think they must move the info around the servers so bookmarks don't work. I've reloaded as follows, Births/baptisms India https://beta.familysearch.org/s/collection/show#uri=http://pilot.familysearc h.org/records/trk:/fsrs/c1584960&hash=MPAfKvgWGXfZ5STyuqUCQxOVNk8%253D deaths/burials India https://beta.familysearch.org/s/collection/show#uri=http://pilot.familysearc h.org/records/trk:/fsrs/c1584968&hash=MPAfKvgWGXfZ5STyuqUCQxOVNk8%253D Marriages India https://beta.familysearch.org/s/collection/show#uri=http://pilot.familysearc h.org/records/trk:/fsrs/c1584967&hash=MPAfKvgWGXfZ5STyuqUCQxOVNk8%253D hope these work for you. Liz Researching Chater or Armenians in India and Hong Kong in 2010? Please go to www.chater-genealogy.com.

Hello List There have been several gatewayed messages on the India List recently. These messages say: This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list... The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board. Gatewayed means copied, so the India List is receiving copies of queries relating to India which were originally placed on a Message Board. As the person who wrote the message probably doesn't belong to the India List, if you send a reply to the India List they probably won't see it. So if you want them to read your reply, you need to place your reply directly on the Message Board. With gatewayed messages there is a Message Board URL in the middle of the India List posting that starts off boards.rootsweb.....Click on this link, it will take you through to the Message Board. However, before you can reply to the message you must be registered. If you have current, or past registration with Ancestry.com your details will be the details you used then. If, as applied to me, I had past details with Ancestry.com, but couldn't remember them, you need to do extra steps. I found the instructions not very clear and it took a while before I registered and could actually reply to the message. However, once you have registered, you do not need to enter any details when you reply to any future queries which are gatewayed to the India List. You just simply click on the Message Board URL in the middle of the India List post and write your reply. So, if you have taken the trouble to write a reply, take the extra step and write your reply directly on the Message Board, otherwise it is likely the person who wrote the original query may never see your reply. Cheers Maureen (Sydney)

Oops! Sorry, I inadvertently clicked on 'send' instead of 'file' to 'save as draft'. So I did not complete my posting. So I will have to take it up where I left off: "... And —" finish it properly - after I've done what I was going to do when I intended to save it as a draft only. In other words: to be continued.... —and very soon I hope! Robin On 04/12/2010 5:19 AM, Noel Clark wrote: > Throwing in my two-pennyworth here, I think that it is a mistake not to > check the primary records for something that might have been omitted in a > transcription. > > For example, reference to the India Office Family History Search database > shows that when Margaret was baptised at Cawnpore on 23rd December 1813 her > father was 'Lt.& Adj., 4th N.I..' So that is something more than just > 'Lieut. Hay.' > > Also, when she married Thomas Sewell, Capt. 11th Regt. N. I. at Calcutta > Cathedral on 6th May 1828, her status was 'Under age' and her father was 'J. > Maj. 66th N. I.' > > Unless you look you never know what might be scribbled on a page of a > register somewhere. > > I would have thought that it was also worth checking the bond document held > in the BL with the reference Z/O/1/9 No. 5480. > > Noel > > ===== India Mailing List ===== > > Families in British India Society: http://www.fibis.org > > > Archives for this list can be found at: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=INDIA > and at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/INDIA > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Thank you for this, Noel This bit of additional information you have so kindly passed on to me does indeed conform with the details in Hodson's /Officers of the Bengal Army/, for Peter Martin Hay, who had been posted as Lieut. to the 9th N.I. in 1804, was made Adjt. of the 2nd Light Infantry Battalion in 1809 and was Adjt. of the 1/4th Native Infantry from 21 Sept 1809 until 4 May 1815. What remains confusing, however, is the very fact that she was baptised at Cawnpore on 23rd December, 1813. And I will have to follow your recommendation to have a look at the original record (or at least a microfilm copy of same). If the IGI is to be trusted on this, there should be an additional note there to the effect that she was born on 22 July, 1811. But even assuming that to be correct, there are still a couple of other records that suggest a certain difficulty in her (and even perhaps her father) being present in Cawnpore in December of 1813. The first of these is a statement made by Thomas Ker (or Carr as his name is spelt in the report). Mr. Thomas Ker was the husband of her aunt (and namesake), Margaret Susannah née Hay. And he was testifying before a Sheriff's Court hearing a suit for damages, in which the plaintiff was the then Major Thomas Sewell and estranged husband of his wife's niece. They were divorced in 1842. The following is an excerpt from an article reporting on this, which appeared in the Dec 1st., 1841 edition of /The Times/: /SHERIFFS' COURT, Red Lion-square, Nov./30. (/Before Mr. Under-Sheriff/ Burchell.) sewell, v. farmer.---crim. con. ... Mr. Thomas Carr examined.---I reside in Oxford-terrace, New-road.Mrs. Carr is the aunt of Mrs. Sewell, who is about 32 years of age.Mrs. Sewell was brought up by me.She came from India to England in 1811, when she was a child, and having finished her education in this country she returned with her mother-in-law to India in 1825. .... Unfortunately I have found no record of the child, Miss M. S. Hay travelling on any vessel from India to England between 1811 and 1825. In fact Mr. Thomas Ker (Carr) was mistaken in saying she returned to India with her mother-in-law in 1825. She did not marry Thomas Sewell until 6 May, 1828, /after/ she had actually returned to India with her stepmother in 1826. And there is that bond record (no. 5480 - which you referred to) for the Bengal Presidency (seen on FIBIS) of her ("Miss Marg't S. Hay") being a passenger along with her stepmother ("Mrs. Mary Hay") - the Authority of the Court dated: "3 May 1826" and the bond itself dated: "23 May 1826." So he may well have been equally mistaken about the date 1811 for her arrival in England. The second somewhat inconvenient and puzzling detail is a record (also on FIBIS) of her father ("Lieut. P. Hay 9th Regt. N.I.") having travelled himself from Calcutta in February of 1813 and in the company (presumably) of /another/ child, "Miss Charlotte Hay." It does not say what their destination was. Though some other passengers on the same HC Ship /Castle Huntle/y were bound for St. Helena. I have been quite unable to find any record of Patrick Martin Hay having had a daughter named Charlotte. Just as I have been unable to find the name of Margaret Susannah's mother or what became of her. Of course this passage aboard the good ship /Castle Huntley/ out of Calcutta in February 1813 does not constitute any serious impediment to Lieut. & Adjt. (Patrick Martin) Hay's presence ten months later in Cawnpore for the christening of his /other/(?) daughter Margaret Susannah. But I have found no record of his returning to northern India within that time frame. Though there is a record (on FIBIS) of "Lieut. Hay" having travelled aboard the HC Yacht /Phoenix/ from England via Madras to arrive in Calcutta in August of 1816. And On 04/12/2010 5:19 AM, Noel Clark wrote: > Throwing in my two-pennyworth here, I think that it is a mistake not to > check the primary records for something that might have been omitted in a > transcription. > > For example, reference to the India Office Family History Search database > shows that when Margaret was baptised at Cawnpore on 23rd December 1813 her > father was 'Lt.& Adj., 4th N.I..' So that is something more than just > 'Lieut. Hay.' > > Also, when she married Thomas Sewell, Capt. 11th Regt. N. I. at Calcutta > Cathedral on 6th May 1828, her status was 'Under age' and her father was 'J. > Maj. 66th N. I.' > > Unless you look you never know what might be scribbled on a page of a > register somewhere. > > I would have thought that it was also worth checking the bond document held > in the BL with the reference Z/O/1/9 No. 5480. > > Noel > > ===== India Mailing List ===== > > Families in British India Society: http://www.fibis.org > > > Archives for this list can be found at: > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=INDIA > and at: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/INDIA > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to INDIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: Paul_NN8NN Surnames: Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.asia.india.general/2560/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I recently discover a KANKULA Family living in the above town. I need to have someone contact them and find out they obtained their surname. I'm also looking for family e-mail addresses. Paul Kankula kankula@bellsouth.net Seneca, SC, USA Important Note: The author of this message may not be subscribed to this list. If you would like to reply to them, please click on the Message Board URL link above and respond on the board.