Robert: Thanks for your information on Primitive Baptists. I have reviewed the Muddy River Baptist Assn. minutes which are on the Hamiliton Co., web site. I am interested in information on Womacks. James S. Womack was messenger to Muddy River Assn. in 1830's. What of Abraham Womack? He died 1850. Also on my father's side I have Joab Moore. H was a messenger from Bethel Creek church several times starting in 1822 until the split over Mission activity I believe in 1837. Any information deeply appreciated. Bob Moore

Hello, Wonder if anyone knows if Poplar Church (with attached cemetery) is still a functioning church and if they kept their own burial records in addition to county records. Poplar Church and Cem. are technically over the Saline County line in Gallatin Co. but many of those (including my family) who attended the church and were buried there, lived in Saline Co. Also I am assuming this is a Baptist Church. If this is not the case could someone let me know what religious affiliation it is. If this church is still a functioning church I would be very interested in contacting the current sexton/minister/reverand/keeper of the records. Thank you-Melinda Roles Jacquier

I have a Abraham WOMACK b c1810 who married a Elizabeth SHEWMAKER on 27 Nov 1831 in Pope Co, Il. I have the parents of Abraham Womack as Abraham Womack and Nancy Ann ???. The parents of Elizabeth SHEWMAKER are William SHEWMAKER and Mary Polly ADAMS. I have a daughter listed as Louisa b c1834. She married a John MORRISON. One of the surces of this is from Clarence Robertson crpcb@panamacity.com. Hope this helps Hal Ledbetter Livingston TX -----Original Message----- From: Robert L Webb [mailto:bwebb9@juno.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 5:31 AM To: ILSALINE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [ILSALINE-L] Greetings Let me check the Womack name in my database. Robert On Wed, 08 Nov 2000 06:11:43 -0600 Judy Brown <jbrown@midwest.net> writes: > Welcome to the group! Would you have information on Abraham Womack, > Circuit > Rider in Hardin Co? He was husband to Elizabeth "Betsy" "Granny" > Womack, who > donated the land for Good Hope Church and cemetery. Thank you. Judy > > >

I'm looking for death and burial information on, and descendants of, James Shook born about 1830 in Bedford County, TN. Clues lead me to believe he died between Jul 1884 and Oct 1888. In Glem Minor's Probate Index for Gallatin County, IL he lists James Shook, Box 90, however when I was at the courthouse in Shawneetown I found no James Shook in Box 90, nor James Shook listed in the death records. It was at the end of the day and I only had time to ask for Probate Box 90. I hope to go back for a visit soon. Any suggestions? On James Shook and Sarah Womack Cavens marriage record he lists his parents as Abraham Shook and Nancy Gipson(?). This is the first document I have found that names his parents. He was married about 1848 probably in TN, first wife Catherine Hart, born about 1820, Bedford Co, TN, died probably before the 1860 Federal Census. They had 4, perhaps 5 children. Nancy Jane Shook, Elizabeth Hannah Shook, Aggie Julia Shook, William "Bud" Howard Shook, and Leatha "Leak" Shook(?). Married 1861 in White Co, IL, second wife Emaline (Johnson) Pearce, 1831-1865 widow of Russian B Pearce, 1827-1858. They had 3 children: Richard Shook, Ulyses Winfield Shook, and Alexander Shook. Married 1868, Gallatin County, IL, third wife Priscilla Elizabeth (Davis) Johnson, 1830-1878. They had two children, John David Shook and Sara "Sallie" Shook. John David Shook married Jennie Blair in 1903 and they had Roy G Shook, 1904-1973, who was a Circuit Clerk in Gallatin Co, IL. Married 1881, Gallatin Co, IL 4th wife Sarah Elizabeth (Womack) Cavens, born abt 1851-died after Oct 1888. They had two children, Anna May Shook, and Horace A Shook. Sarah married Hiram H Shelby, her 5th husband on 20 Oct 1888. Thank you for any information or suggestions. Janice Knotter Janice@Knotter.com

Dear friend, I will try to reply to the part of your request which seems less likely to be controversial, and go from there. I am not sure it can be said that the Baptists dominated these areas. It may be true in certain localities, but I am sure that the Methodists were very prominent even in these earliest times, and prospered as much or more as the Baptists, probably also the Presbyterians and others, also. If there are 500 people on this list (I have no idea how many there are), I would like to still have hope of 500 friends when I finish writing. I have no desire to offend anyone on here. First, regarding slavery. I have in my hand a pamphlet history of the Miami Baptist Association (org. in 1797, near Cincinnati), written in 1880. In 1804 this Ohio group of churches took up correspondence with the Philadelphia Association (org. in 1707). The same year an association called North Bend in Kentucky requested correspondence, but it was rejected. In 1810, this history says that a letter from the Emancipating Baptist Society of Kentucky was handed in by Bro. Barrow, requesting correspondence, and it was rejected. Spencer's History of the Kentucky Baptists, Vol. 1, begin. with p. 192, has six or seven pages on Elder David Barrow, of the North Bend Association. He was an emancipation preacher, but the churches in Kentucky were not ready for that, and he was actually cast out of the association. I am not sure now, whether the churches in Ohio, agreed with Elder Barrow, and therefore rejected correspondence with the North Bend Association, or what. Maybe someone else has studied these details. I also have an article on one of these churches in Ohio, which came as a body from Virginia to Fairfield Co., Ohio, to get away from slavery in the Old Dominion, and how strongly they felt about it. Some of the Primitive Baptists in Illinois were abolitionists. The Illinois Association (in the region east and southeast of St. Louis on the Illinois side of the river) divided over slavery about this same time. The Baptists which our kind friend Jon Musgrave mentioned in connection with his comments on Liberty Church arose from a division in the Illinois Association, and were called "Friends to Humanity" Baptists, or Emancipation Baptists, because they opposed slavery and did not wish to fellowship Baptists who held slaves. I am very willing to be corrected if I should mistate this in any way. I have some old church records here, of Hurricane Church in Montgomery Co., dating back to 1818, in which the clerk refers to the subject of slavery being something which they agreed to alone because it had caused them so much trouble in Kentucky. Dr. James Simeone, of Ill. Wesleyan in Bloomington, Ill., has authored a book called "Democracy and Slavery" which came out just this year from the Northern Ill Univ Press. I received a copy as a gift due to my part in helping him prepare for a symposium a year or two ago, in Springfield, by supplying him with early writings in the form of Circular Letters published by Baptist associations in Illinois during this time frame. This subject [slavery] is not one I have done a lot of study on. All I am trying to do, is to refer you to what little source material I know about which might enlighten a person who is better able to put these things all together than I am. A friend to all of you, I hope, Robert Webb On Thu, 9 Nov 2000 14:39:13 EST HELTSLEY@aol.com writes: > Mr. Webb, > Please let me join the line of people swamping you with > questions since > you announced your acquisition of your church records. > In a nutshell, I am interested in how the Baptist Church and > other > fundamentalist institutions was able to dominate Kentucky and a good > portion > of Ill., the west and north extention of the Bible Belt, I believe. > My request might take more thought but please consider it. I'm > writing a > book on my family who lived in Kentucky (1799 to present) and in > Eldorado > (1840 to 1954) and to help understand them I need a better view of > the people > they lived with and the places they lived in. > I noticed the name T. Leo Dodd. He was my high school principal > in the > late 1940s. > I also am interested in the attitudes toward slavery as you > touched on. > Also, how my German ancestors who probably were not Baptists > when they > came to America or to the areas they settled in, such as Ky. and > S.Ill., > apparently succumbed to the majority Baptists. > Was it that simple, majority vs. minority? > And all the taboos still show even today. Dry counties, some > begrudgingly wet , alcohol wise, although moonshine has flourished. > A > critical view would be that the church people have cooperated with > the > moonshiners and the legal booze distillers to keep out the demon > rum. > The lack of public drinking no doubt has hurt tourism. The > great > merchandising giants like K mart and Wal-Mart have blasted out the > Blue Law > of Sundays. Etc. > In addition, to your comments, perhaps there is a book that > addresses > these issues. If you disagree with my questions please tell me why. > > Thank you and good luck. > > Ernie Heltsley/former Eldoradoan > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Mr. Webb, Please let me join the line of people swamping you with questions since you announced your acquisition of your church records. In a nutshell, I am interested in how the Baptist Church and other fundamentalist institutions was able to dominate Kentucky and a good portion of Ill., the west and north extention of the Bible Belt, I believe. My request might take more thought but please consider it. I'm writing a book on my family who lived in Kentucky (1799 to present) and in Eldorado (1840 to 1954) and to help understand them I need a better view of the people they lived with and the places they lived in. I noticed the name T. Leo Dodd. He was my high school principal in the late 1940s. I also am interested in the attitudes toward slavery as you touched on. Also, how my German ancestors who probably were not Baptists when they came to America or to the areas they settled in, such as Ky. and S.Ill., apparently succumbed to the majority Baptists. Was it that simple, majority vs. minority? And all the taboos still show even today. Dry counties, some begrudgingly wet , alcohol wise, although moonshine has flourished. A critical view would be that the church people have cooperated with the moonshiners and the legal booze distillers to keep out the demon rum. The lack of public drinking no doubt has hurt tourism. The great merchandising giants like K mart and Wal-Mart have blasted out the Blue Law of Sundays. Etc. In addition, to your comments, perhaps there is a book that addresses these issues. If you disagree with my questions please tell me why. Thank you and good luck. Ernie Heltsley/former Eldoradoan

Hi Char, Thanks for the response. What I really desperately need, hopefully from Wesley records, is to verify the middle name of my maternal grandfather, T.D. (Thomas Delano) Morris. Our cousins believe the name was "Delton"although our mother told us it was "Delano." TD and his first wife, Elnora Shaver, and second wife, Nannie Bradshaw, probably are buried there in Wesley Chapel Cemetery although one hot August afternoon during my visit there this summer I couldn't find them. I have found T.D.'s in the past. It had no middle name on the stone. I'm hoping it does on church records. Of course, if my great- grandfather, John F. Morris, and his wife, Hester A. McClendon???sp??? were buried there that would be a great bonus. They should be buried around Eldorado. John died in Eldorado from Civil War illness Feb. 17, 1863. Don't know when Charlotte died or where she was buried. Also, I have no info on what happened to my gr-gr-grandfather (John's father), William Morris and wife, Charlotte. They came to Eldorado from Tenn. in about 1840. Nor do I know the whereabouts of T.D.'s brothers, (John's sons), Joseph L., Virgil M., and William C. John's bros.Owen M. and William W. also served with him in the Eldorado military unit but we've lost track of them too. Don't be overwhelmed by this, please. I'm really not requesting as much as the bulk suggests. It's like putting my thoughts on paper for the future while I'm at it. The primary thing I'm searching for is the middle name of grandfather T.D. Thanks again, Ernie Heltsley/Former Eldoradoan

Ernie Heltsley....please email me privately. char1@midwest.net

In the 1920 Saline County Census book there is a George Hansleman 38 yrs --wife Mary 33 with following children Guy E 12, Lula M 9, Lawrence F. 7, Floid A. 5, and Mary E. 2 . They lived at or in Eldorado and Broughton Road. This was the only Hanselman in the census. hope this helps. Patricia Mitchell Joliet, IL

Thanks Trev, I believe I saw Plainview as one of the census districts of Saline County sometime ago but forgot to find out where it was. Ernie Heltsley/ Former Eldoradoan

>From an old map (I think 1876?) Plainview was a township in the very north east corner of Saline Co.. Texas City post office was located there. Hamilton Co located to it's north border, Gallatin to it's east border, and Eldorado to it's south border. Best Regards, Trev ----- Original Message ----- From: <HELTSLEY@aol.com> To: <ILSALINE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 08 November, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [ILSALINE-L] LOOKING FOR DEATH/BURIAL OF MY GRANDFATHER/GRANDMOTHER Ms. Crawley, Sorry, I can't help you, but maybe you could help me. Did Charley Thomas Scott tell you of any of his experiences while living in Eldorado. If so, I would appreciate your telling me about them. I am writing a book on Eldorado and my family's former home. Did he say any good things or bad things happened to him or his neighbors? Is Plainview around Eldorado? Have a good day. Ernie Heltsley/Tucson

Friends, Having received a private inquiry about early members at Bankston's Fork, I will submit the following for your consideration. The Bankston's Fork church I was referring to, was organized in about 1818 or 1819, and its charter members are unknown at this time, as far as I know. Most of the names of its members of which I have knowledge were learned as follows: they were dismissed from Bankston's Fork to organize Bethel's Creek, Ten Mile, Middle Fork of Saline (Old Ruff), and Lick Creek. Some names are also proveable, from the minutes of the Muddy River Association which lists the messengers from each church annually, and of course Bankston's fork are given as well as the others. Ralph Harrelson's proof (of the error made by Elder T. Leo Dodd in his history of Brushy Fork church) was derived from the fact that Brushy Fork Church, near Harco, was listed as a member of Muddy River Association from 1843 or so, and Bankston's Fork was listed or mentioned later than that date, and since Bankston is known to have existed after Brushy was formed, Brushy could not be a continuation or reorganization of Bankston. I agree with this, and my notes indicate that Bankston's Fork church dissolved in 1849. The Bankston church you are referring to was evidently organized later with the same name, but has no claim (to the best of my knowledge) to any connection as to date of constitution, with the earlier Bankston church of 1820 date. I have a list of over 75 names of people who were early members at Bankston's Fork church in my database, who were lettered out to form other churches of which the records do exist. BTW, regarding the emancipation baptists, may I add, that there was a division among the Baptists of Kentucky, and Illinois, over [NOT whether slavery was wrong or not, but RATHER, should they fellowship Baptist churches who allowed their members to hold slaves.] Everyone knows, that Baptists in Virginia held slaves, and many in Kentucky also held slaves, and many of those people who opposed slavery strenously moved to Illinois, Ohio, and took an anti-slavery position. Some of the early Primitive Baptists in Illinois who were principal actors in the division over "missions" were at the same time strong voices and votes AGAINST slavery in the legislature. Not all Illinois PB's were opposed to slavery, but most of them were against non-fellowshiping all the Baptists in Kentucky who had slaves. I have done a lot of serious study of these early churches in southern Illinois, as they are crucial to an understanding of what really happened among the Baptists of Illinois. I am open to correction, as I just want to know the facts as they really are. Sincerely, Robert Webb ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

I'm till researching for information on the Simon Hanselman family and his children Simon, George, Mary. George in particular he married Mollie Simpson of Eldarado 8-10-1902 They had a son Claudy Clay, Mollie died son was raised by someone else, possibly a relative. Some names that keep coming up on paper work are......John Pappins or (Paffins) Minister Charley Harris......C.E. Wiggins, and Benjamin Simpson and Anna Maria , Stella Simpson and Daniel Johnson....Viola Simpson and Albert Karnes.....Sallie Simpson and Finis Eubanks. Any information on any of these people would MAYBE be of help to me to find out what happened to the son of George and Mollie Hanselman. His name was changed to George Joseph Hanselman. Thanks

Ernie Heltsley, The pastor of Wesley Chapel Methodist Church is Rev. Ron Johnson who lives in Equality I am a board member of the cemetery and a member of the church. Email me privately and I'll try to help. char char1@midwest.net -----Original Message----- From: HELTSLEY@aol.com <HELTSLEY@aol.com> To: ILSALINE-L@rootsweb.com <ILSALINE-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 10:24 PM Subject: Re: [ILSALINE-L] Liberty Baptist Church >Forgive my butting in, please, but could someone tell me who I can contact >who has the records of Wesley Chapel (Methodist) Cemetery, north and east >of Eldorado where my grandfather, Thomas D. Morris, and others are buried? > A telephone number would help. Who is the pastor? > > Thanks, > > > Ernie Heltsley/Tucson > >

Jon Musgrave, Thank you for the information, I sure would like to read or obtain a copy. I understood they had a fire and all the records burnt. Phil Russell

Forgive my butting in, please, but could someone tell me who I can contact who has the records of Wesley Chapel (Methodist) Cemetery, north and east of Eldorado where my grandfather, Thomas D. Morris, and others are buried? A telephone number would help. Who is the pastor? Thanks, Ernie Heltsley/Tucson

Robert, Wilson Frost VanCleve was with the Cedar Creek Baptist Church, the Hopewell Baptist Church and I believe that is only two in Ill. He was one of the organizers of the Murray Baptist Church in Calloway Co., Ky. At 07:15 PM 11/8/00 -0600, you wrote: >This name is not in the records of Grand Pier church, Pope Co., or Big >Creek, Hardin Co. I haven't been able to obtain the records of Little >Flock at Ozark in Johnson Co., or Rock Spring near Simpson in Johnson Co. > A Mr. Kerley had the records I think, a few years ago, of Rock Spring >(the building and cemetery are still there as far as I know), but I don't >know where they are now. We of course would love to obtain a copy. We >have a fund set aside to microfilm or zerox the records of any Illinois >PBC at no charge to the church. > Robert Webb > >On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 21:11:57 -0600 "James R. Griffin Sr." ><jrgsr@shawneelink.net> writes: >> Robert, If you come across any records for Wilson Frost VanCleve in >> Pope >> and Johnson county, please >> let me know. Thanks. >> >> >> >> >> At 05:53 PM 11/7/00 -0600, you wrote: >> >Friends, >> > Earlier today I subscribed to this forum, so I have no >> knowledge of >> >what has been or is being discussed here, and hence, if I say >> anything >> >which seems to be an intrusion, please pardon me. Will just say >> that my >> >Webb family came to Illinois before it was a state, and I am a >> sixth >> >generation Primitive Baptist, of which four generations (myself >> included) >> >have been ministers, and I have been untiringly interested in >> church >> >history since age 18, and now conduct a religious library which has >> >records of our churches all over Illinois and a dozen other states, >> and >> >am writing a book on the same subject. Have just recently obtained >> the >> >records of the Grand Pier church in Pope Co., and part of the >> records of >> >Big Creek church which existed from 1806-1837 in what is now Hardin >> Co. >> >I hope to obtain a few more records of Saline Co. PBC's. >> > Robert Webb - Carthage, Illinois (Hancock Co) >> >________________________________________________________________ >> >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >> >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >> >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >> >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. >> > >> > >> > >________________________________________________________________ >YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! >Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! >Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: >http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. > >

Hi, Jon! Nice to know you are on this list. I have several of Ron Nelson's works, and also several of Ralph Harrelson's. I met him a few years ago when he attended a meeting where I was invited to preach. He was a thorough historian, and through him I learned that Brushy Fork church was organized in 1843, not 1820 as had been published (as though it were a continuation of the Bankston's Fork church). The coin has now flipped, as I recently obtained part of the early records of the Big Creek Church in Hardin county, and have written an article for our PB Library Quarterly and for my book, about this church, which will show that the First Baptist of Elizabethtown could NOT have been a continuation of Big Creek, (and therefore the oldest Baptist church in Illinois), as has been published. We are all very prone to make mistakes if we rely on information that is not substantial proof. I am willing to discuss this in a measured way and not make any sweeping conclusions until all the facts are in, but it appears fairly certain to me at this point. Elder Robert Webb On Wed, 8 Nov 2000 19:47:00 -0600 "Jon Musgrave" <jmusgrave@onecliq.net> writes: > Phil, > > The church published its history in the fall of 1996. Ron Nelson and > the > late Ralph Harrelson authored it. Liberty started out as the first > Emancipation (anti-slavery) Baptist church in southeastern Illinois. > I do > not know if the church has any more copies available for sale. > > Jon Musgrave > www.IllinoisHistory.com > ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Hi all, Great new portal site just for us researchers! It's called "GenealogySpot" and is from the same folks who put out "LibrarySpot". The URL is http://www.genealogyspot.com Bill Cribbs WebWide Surname Locator http://www.geocities.com/cribbswh/surnames/ Obituary Links Page http://www.geocities.com/cribbswh/obit/ Obituary Archive Search Engine http://www.obitcentral.com/obitsearch/ Local Obituary Search Engines http://www.obitcentral.com/obitsearch/other.htm Family Surname Obituary Archives http://www.geocities.com/cribbswh/obit/famobit.htm Canadian Obituary Links Page http://www.geocities.com/cribbswh/obit/canada.htm CemSEARCH http://www.obitcentral.com/cemsearch/ ShipSEARCH http://www.obitcentral.com/shipsearch/ Historical & Genealogical Societies of the United States http://www.geocities.com/cribbswh/hs/

Phil, The church published its history in the fall of 1996. Ron Nelson and the late Ralph Harrelson authored it. Liberty started out as the first Emancipation (anti-slavery) Baptist church in southeastern Illinois. I do not know if the church has any more copies available for sale. Jon Musgrave www.IllinoisHistory.com