Judy asked for additional naming patterns - check out http://www.fairacre.demon.co.uk/ Dorothy Falk ---------- From: Judy Wick <JWick@compuserve.com> To: ILMADISO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Some Naming Patterns Date: Thursday, December 03, 1998 4:06 PM I thought I would pass on some information recently given to me from friends on the Internet that may prove useful when researching your ancestors. It has proved very helpful to me, although it is not always a guarantee that your ancestor followed the patterns, it does give you a possible clue to a name. This is why you may find two people with the same names living in the same time period but with different birthdates---they may be cousins and not the same person afterall. If anyone has some additional naming patterns, please pass them on to us. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com OLD NAMING PATTERNS The first son was named after the father's father. The second son was named after the mother's father. The third son was named after the father. The fourth son was named after the fathers eldest brother. The first daughter was named after the mother's mother. The second daughter was named after the father's mother. The third daughter was named after the mother. The fourth daughter was named after the mothers eldest sister. SWEDISH NAMING PATTERNS If Olaf had a daughter that he named Inga. Inga would be named: Inga Olafsdaur (or Olaf's daughter) If Olaf had a son that he named Sven, his son would be called: Sven Olafson. When Sven has a daughter that he names Olga, Olga's name would be Olga Svensdaur. Her brother Lars would be: Lars Svenson. SCOTS PATTERN OF NAMING Our Dunn family was really stuck in the pattern. William begot James, James Begot William, William begot James etc., etc., etc., down through the generations. It was the traditional Scots way of naming. This was also apparent in the women of our family. You will also find that middle names are quite significant if your ancestors are from Scotland. Often the middle name reflects a previous generation Sur-name. For instance, William Abercromie Dunn, was the son of James Dunn and Mary Birnie. James parents were William Dun (notice spelling change in descendants) and Margaret Abercrombie. William Abercrombie Dunn and his wife, Annie Young, named their children, in my grandfather's generation, with the same pattern as described first. His children were: James Dunn no middle name (named for William's father) Robert Young Dunn (named for wife's father: First and middle name) William Birnie Dunn (named for father and middle name is that of William's mother.) Lillie Haddow Young Dunn (named for Annie's mother: Lillias Haddow and her father's surname: Young) My Grandfather: Andrew Carnegie Dunn, was a broken part of the pattern. William didn't have an older brother. The name, Andrew Carnegie, came from his employer and friend. The Andrew Carnegie, Steel Magnate. Mary Birnie Dunn, named for William's mother, Mary Birnie. This continues through the remaining 12 children. Sylvia was the first to discover the naming pattern when she did the initial research. She found alternating William and James and found it more than a coincidence. It didn't take long to discover that it was a common practice amongst the Scots. 19th CENTURY GERMAN NAMING PATTERNS: At baptism, if two given names were given to the child, the first given name was a spiritual, saint's name, originally developed from Roman Catholic tradition and continued by the Protestants in their baptismal naming customs. The second given name as the secular or call name, which is the name the person was known by, both within the family and to this rest of the world. The spiritual name, usually to honor a favorite saint, was usually repeatedly given to all the children of that family of the same sex. thus the boys would be Johan Adam Kerchner, Johan George Kerchner, etc., or Philip Peter Kerchner, Philip Jacob Kerchner, etc. Girls would be named Anna Barbara Kerchner, Anna Margaret Kerchner, etc., or Maria Elizabeth Kerchner, Maria Katherine Kerchner, etc. But after baptism, these people would not be known as John, Philip, Anna, or Maria, respectively. they would instead be known by what we would think of now as their middle name, which was their secular name. Thus these people would be known respectively as Adam, George, Peter, Jacob, Barbara, Margaret, Elizabeth, and Catherine in legal and secular records. For males, the saint's name Johan or John was particularly heavily used by many German families. The child's secular name was really John, if and only if, at baptism he was named only John, usually Johannes, with no second given name. Many researchers, new to German names, who find a baptism of an individual with a name such as Johan Adam Kerchner, thus mistakenly spend a lot of time looking for a John Kerchner, in legal and census records, when he was known after baptism, to the secular world, as Adam Kerchner. Also when reading county histories, etc., especially those written by individuals in the 20th century, and the author is referring to someone as John Kerchner, and you are not looking for a John Kerchner, but the history sounds otherwise familiar, further research may turn up that this person was really not a John Kerchner, but instead was someone else such as a Johan George Kerchner. You would thus find all his 18th century records recorded under the name George Kerchner and not John Kerchner and therefore after checking the data and correlating the facts you may find this is really a story about your missing George Kerchner. ==== ILMADISO Mailing List ==== 2,500 Discussion Lists!!! 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I know you will enjoy your family reunion. After years of not seeing or keeping in touch, several cousins meet in Colorado in July and it was great. Just last month I flew to Texas to meet some of my mother's family. I had a ball seeing where she was born, lived and went to school. I fell in love with my new found family in DeKalb, Texas. My cousin who had the reunion at her summer place in Colo. drove from Pampa, Texas and picked me up at Dallas Airport and drove me to DeKalb. She is a cousin on my Ford family side. I then flew to St. Louis and my Dunbar cousin met me there. She lives in Calif. We went to see my grandparents graves (her great grandparents). Then we drove to Alton where I fell in love with the town. We found my grandfather in the directory there in 1874. In the town of Troy again we met more of the Dunbar family. One cousin drove all the way from northern Illinois to meet us. I only wish I would have started genealogy years ago. I went to Salt Lake last May and want to go again. Keep in touch. Evelyn bachand@jps.net

Jean, Thank you for sending the additional information on naming patterns. I'm going to send it on to the other web-pages too. I've received quite a few responses from people saying it answered some questions they had about family names. And I received one that said it never worked for them. So there you go. It may work, it may not. My family is Scot-Irish and I've found the naming pattern held true for many generations and my friend who was Swedish found it fit in her family. But of course, this may not be true for everyone. Some families may have tossed the whole idea. I simply offered it as a tool that might assist in research. Thanks again for the information Jean. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com Here's the additional Naming Pattern information from Jean Bushnell: From: "Jean Bushnell" <jeanb@wf.quik.com> Old-To: <ILGREENE-L@rootsweb.com> It was a common practice in some German families to name the first born son after the child's paternal grandfather and the second born son after the maternal grandfather. Here are several more detailed naming patterns practiced by some families. Pattern A 1st son after the father's father 2nd son after the mother's father 3rd son after the father 4th son after the husband's father's father 5th son after the wife's father's father 6th son after the husband's mother's father 7th son after the wife's mother's father 1st daughter after the wife's mother 2nd daughter after the husband's mother 3rd daughter after the mother 4th daughter after the father's father's mother 5th daughter after the mother's father's mother 6th daughter after the father's mother's mother 7th daughter after the mother's mother's mother Pattern B The pattern B for the sons is the same as the above but this pattern for daughters was different 1st daughter after the father's mother 2nd daughter after the mother's mother 3rd daughter after the mother 4th daughter after the mother's father's mother 5th daughter after the father's father's mother Pattern C 1st son after the father's father 2nd son after the mother's father 3rd son after the father's oldest brother 4th son after the father 1st daughter after the father's mother 2nd daughter after the mother's mother 3rd daughter after the mother's oldest sister 4th daughter after the mother Whenever a duplicate name occurred in these patterns, the next name in the series was used. If a child died in infancy the name was often reused for the next child of the same gender. A rare twist occurred sometimes. A child's name would be reused when a spouse died and the surviving spouse remarried and had more children with the next spouse. I found this happened when a spouse had children in Germany and then his spouse died. He left his children behind in Germany, possibly with the grandparents, and then emigrated to Pennsylvania. Sometime after arrival he remarried and named his eldest son born in Pennsylvania by his new spouse with the same name as the son still living in Germany. This results in two adult children with the same name. If you are lucky enough to find a family with a lot of children, who strictly followed one of these naming patterns, then it may give you useful clues to determining the possible names of family members in earlier generations. 5. An "in" or "en", added to the end of a name, such as Anna Maria Kerchnerin, is a Germanic language name ending suffix denoting that the person is female. Thus the correct spelling of the last name in the example would be Kerchner, not Kerchnerin. 6. An "er" or "ner", added to a surname based on the name of something, denoted that the person worked with that object or at that occupation, if the main portion of the name was an object or an occupation, or that the person was from that geographic location or city, if the main portion of the name was a geographic location. Examples: Forst is German for a forest, thus Forster is one who worked in a forest or with woodlands or was from a forest. Berlin is a city in Germany, thus Berliner is one who is from Berlin. Since English is a Germanic rooted language we do the same thing in English, i.e., Paint(er), Garden(er), New York(er). The suffixes mentioned in 5. and 6. above are compounded in many cases. The nouns Kirche and Kerche are German words for church. Thus for the surname Kerchnerin, i.e., Kerch(ner)(in) we thus have a person who worked in or near a church who is female. 7. Frequently the secular name given to the child was also the same as the secular given name of one of the baptismal sponsors for the child. Said baptismal sponsors frequently were close relatives but also could be close and trusted friends and neighbors. I hope that the above information will be of assistance to individuals researching 18th Century Pennsylvania-German names and records. Sorry, but I cannot give you specific advice or answer questions about individual German names. For information on specific names consult one of the following excellent books. For additional information on "German-American Names" consult the book by that name written by Professor George F. Jones published by the Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD. For additional information on German names, consult the 1967 book written by Hans Bahlow. The English version titled "Dictionary of German Names" was translated by Edda Gentry. It was published in 1993 by the Max Kade Institute for German-American Studies, University of Wisconsin-Madison, Madison WI.

Evelyn, All my new found cousins and I are planning our very first Clark Family Reunion this summer. I was amazed at the response to my reunion notice. I can't wait to meet all of them. Starting the search for my roots has turned out to be one of the best things in my life. My parents weren't close with family and now my new-found family has grown to over 2000 people. What a joy this has been. I hope the same holds true for you too. Being originally from the Alton area, I happen to find the people there to be most friendly and kind and I think you will too. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com

Thanks for your interest. Ron sent me an email and I just finished sending him one. We both think there might be a connection with our families. I will keep you posted. You are so right about talking to your parents while they are alive. My dad died in 1969 and Mom died 18 months later and my dad was 20 years older than my mom. I have been on my own on searching for my family and my husband's. Evelyn bachand@jps.net

I thought I would pass on some information recently given to me from friends on the Internet that may prove useful when researching your ancestors. It has proved very helpful to me, although it is not always a guarantee that your ancestor followed the patterns, it does give you a possible clue to a name. This is why you may find two people with the same names living in the same time period but with different birthdates---they may be cousins and not the same person afterall. If anyone has some additional naming patterns, please pass them on to us. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com OLD NAMING PATTERNS The first son was named after the father's father. The second son was named after the mother's father. The third son was named after the father. The fourth son was named after the fathers eldest brother. The first daughter was named after the mother's mother. The second daughter was named after the father's mother. The third daughter was named after the mother. The fourth daughter was named after the mothers eldest sister. SWEDISH NAMING PATTERNS If Olaf had a daughter that he named Inga. Inga would be named: Inga Olafsdaur (or Olaf's daughter) If Olaf had a son that he named Sven, his son would be called: Sven Olafson. When Sven has a daughter that he names Olga, Olga's name would be Olga Svensdaur. Her brother Lars would be: Lars Svenson. SCOTS PATTERN OF NAMING Our Dunn family was really stuck in the pattern. William begot James, James Begot William, William begot James etc., etc., etc., down through the generations. It was the traditional Scots way of naming. This was also apparent in the women of our family. You will also find that middle names are quite significant if your ancestors are from Scotland. Often the middle name reflects a previous generation Sur-name. For instance, William Abercromie Dunn, was the son of James Dunn and Mary Birnie. James parents were William Dun (notice spelling change in descendants) and Margaret Abercrombie. William Abercrombie Dunn and his wife, Annie Young, named their children, in my grandfather's generation, with the same pattern as described first. His children were: James Dunn no middle name (named for William's father) Robert Young Dunn (named for wife's father: First and middle name) William Birnie Dunn (named for father and middle name is that of William's mother.) Lillie Haddow Young Dunn (named for Annie's mother: Lillias Haddow and her father's surname: Young) My Grandfather: Andrew Carnegie Dunn, was a broken part of the pattern. William didn't have an older brother. The name, Andrew Carnegie, came from his employer and friend. The Andrew Carnegie, Steel Magnate. Mary Birnie Dunn, named for William's mother, Mary Birnie. This continues through the remaining 12 children. Sylvia was the first to discover the naming pattern when she did the initial research. She found alternating William and James and found it more than a coincidence. It didn't take long to discover that it was a common practice amongst the Scots. 19th CENTURY GERMAN NAMING PATTERNS: At baptism, if two given names were given to the child, the first given name was a spiritual, saint's name, originally developed from Roman Catholic tradition and continued by the Protestants in their baptismal naming customs. The second given name as the secular or call name, which is the name the person was known by, both within the family and to this rest of the world. The spiritual name, usually to honor a favorite saint, was usually repeatedly given to all the children of that family of the same sex. thus the boys would be Johan Adam Kerchner, Johan George Kerchner, etc., or Philip Peter Kerchner, Philip Jacob Kerchner, etc. Girls would be named Anna Barbara Kerchner, Anna Margaret Kerchner, etc., or Maria Elizabeth Kerchner, Maria Katherine Kerchner, etc. But after baptism, these people would not be known as John, Philip, Anna, or Maria, respectively. they would instead be known by what we would think of now as their middle name, which was their secular name. Thus these people would be known respectively as Adam, George, Peter, Jacob, Barbara, Margaret, Elizabeth, and Catherine in legal and secular records. For males, the saint's name Johan or John was particularly heavily used by many German families. The child's secular name was really John, if and only if, at baptism he was named only John, usually Johannes, with no second given name. Many researchers, new to German names, who find a baptism of an individual with a name such as Johan Adam Kerchner, thus mistakenly spend a lot of time looking for a John Kerchner, in legal and census records, when he was known after baptism, to the secular world, as Adam Kerchner. Also when reading county histories, etc., especially those written by individuals in the 20th century, and the author is referring to someone as John Kerchner, and you are not looking for a John Kerchner, but the history sounds otherwise familiar, further research may turn up that this person was really not a John Kerchner, but instead was someone else such as a Johan George Kerchner. You would thus find all his 18th century records recorded under the name George Kerchner and not John Kerchner and therefore after checking the data and correlating the facts you may find this is really a story about your missing George Kerchner.

Deborah I was wondering if you are related to any Kurlbaums. I am doing research on that name and there is a Mueller in that family. Madison County. Thanks Judy in Ca.

Judy I was wondering if you knew of anyone who can take some pictures for me. Some of my family are buried in the Wiesemann Cemetery in Prairietown. The names are Ruhlander, Scherff and Suhrenbrock. I would be glad to pay for film and developing. Let me know. Thanks Judy in Ca.

Did Jacob come from NY or PA Webers? I am searching for info on my ggrandfather in Collinsville, Madison County, IL in the 1850's. He was Nicholas Benjamin WEBER, b.1816 Chatauqua County, NY. Will be glad to share if I find anything on Jacob. Kelley6664@aol.com wrote: > Do you have any Webers listed in Madison County? I am particularly looking > for Jacob Weber. > > Thank you for time > > Kelley > > ==== ILMADISO Mailing List ==== > Visit the Madison County Home Page! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~ilmadiso/index.htm

> > From: oshaffer > > > Subject: Shafer/Shaffer/Shafer > > > > Howdy: > > Would the person who was looking up family names in the 1860(?) > directories > > please see if there any of the Shaffer's listed? > > DAVID, ISAAC, THOMAS, ABRAHAM just some of the names. > > Thank you. > > Orvil Shaffer oshaffer@ccaonline.com >

Eveylyn, Good luck on your contact with Ron. I hope he's a match. Your statement rang true. I didn't start my quest for ancestors until my mother died and I realized all she knew went with her. She didn't like to talk about family, but I wish I had tried harder. Thank goodness my father was still alive, although in his 90's, his memory was still sharp. I made quite a few recordings of our conversations about his family and his life. I'm so glad I did because he passed away too about 8 years after my mother. For all of you who still have parents or relatives living, talk to them as much as you can. You don't know what you've lost until it's too late. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com

I recently visited Lourina's and my grandfather's graves in Kirkwood, Missouri and there are no headstones. Our family will be putting one on soon. Thanks for your note. Evelyn bachand@jps.net

Thanks for sending me Ron Selph's email. I sent him the information on Lourina hoping some of the info is familiar. I am not giving up on finding out about her family. My dad didn't talk about her except she died when he was 13 years old in Kirkwood, Missouri. What is really sad I didn't ask questions while he was alive. Thanks, Evelyn bachand@jps.net

Thanks for all the listing of cemeteries. Now I will contact some in Collinsville, IL to see if they have any SELPHS buried there. Thanks, Evelyn bachand@jps.net

Do you have any Webers listed in Madison County? I am particularly looking for Jacob Weber. Thank you for time Kelley

T6R9 is in Fosterburg Twp. I have family in the same area that lists Alton as the post office and I have found in in the south west corner of Fosterburg Twp. Jeana

Evelyn, Ron Selph just emailed me and informed me that he is still the mayor of Granite City. Someone read my message to and sent the information to him. They failed to send him your email address which he requested. I did sent it to him. He wants to contact you, and I suspect will. I hope this is alright. Here is his email address: mayor@thew.net (Ron Selph) Phyllis

Barbara, Thanks for getting that information about the cemetery publications. I live in Florida and it's great when you can have books of your own for research. I'm always finding new "dead" people I need to look up. Special thanks to Debbi Geer for sending the information. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com

Oshaffer--I don't know your name, So far I haven't gotten an answer. But I have several places I may phone to see if they have a book. I'll definitely let you know if I find one. Judy Clark-Wick JWick@compuserve.com Researching "CLARK" in Rockbridge Co.VA Xenia & Jamestown OH Rockbridge IL, Greene Co. Alton, Madison Co.IL

Thanks for all your help. Evelyn bachand@jps.net