A fellow Fayette lister has suggested that David Radcliff who married Ellen Grandfield (1855) was the son of Charles R. and Elizabeth (Walker) Radcliff and NOT the son of Michael and Elizabeth (McKinney) Radcliff (as I posted in another thread). Almost anything is possible in genealogy. Charles and Michael were brothers, and both did have sons named David. However, a Radcliff Family history in the Fayette County Genealogical Society's quarterly publication, "Fayette Facts" (Vol. 4, No. 3, Sept. 1975, p. 34-35) lists David (the husband of Ellen) among Michael and Elizabeth's children. According to the publicaton, information in the genealogy was provided by Mrs. Ayers (Mary Radcliff) Buzzard and Ralph Radcliff, Sr., two of Michael's great-grandchildren. The article deals only with Michael's line; Charles R. Radcliff is mentioned only briefly: "Two families named Radcliff, those of Michael and Charles, came to Fayette County before 1830. Both appear in the 1830 census. By 1840 Charles had moved across the river and Michael had died." FF does not identify Michael and Charles, as well as Simon (b. abt 1786) and Rachel (b. abt 1807), as children of Edward Radcliff. Supposedly a Virginia native and Christian County, KY, resident, Edward in the early 1800s moved his family to what would become St. Clair Co., IL. He died abt 1809 (Joseph McKinney witnessed his will in 1808). My info on the Charles R. Radcliff family is sketchy and, for all practical purposes, undocumented, but for his children I have listed Matilda and Simeon (by first wife Elizabeth Hickman) and Mary, Isaac, Elizabeth, Nathan, Harvey, Margaret, Rachel, John and David (by second wife Elizabeth Walker). Many of Michael's offspring had similar names: Charles, Isaac, Mahala, Harvey, Susannah, David, Edward, Rachel and John Nathaniel. Jerry, what is your source for E.G.'s David being Charles' son and not Michael's? Have there been some recent discoveries of which I am unaware? Is it possible the great-grandchildren who supplied "Fayette Facts" with the "facts" couldn't tell their granduncle from their first cousin twice removed? If any of Mrs. Buzzard's or Ralph Radcliff's kin (or other Radcliff descendants) are out there reading this, please feel free to jump right in. Carol Jerryblay@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/10/00 7:53:39 AM Central Standard Time, lewis@csuol.com > writes: > > << Line #1 > > 2. Elizabeth McKinney, b: 1795 - 1800 Mercer Co, KY, d: 06 Aug 1856 > Sefton Twp, FC; & Michael Radcliff, Sr, b: 1785 - 1795 Hardy Co, VA, d: abt > 1838 Sefton Twp, FC, m: abt 1814 St. Clair Co, IL > > 3. David C Radcliff b: 07 Jul 1835, d: 20 May 1899 & Ellen Grandfield, b: > 02 Feb 1836 Philadelphia, PA, d: 26 Nov 1916 (near) Pinhook, m: 06 Feb 1855 > FC >> > > I have that this David C. Radcliff was the son of Charles R. Radcliff > (1792-1845) and Elizabeth Walker (1802-1882)! > > Jerry Blaylock

Carol, I have a question about the 2 Daniel McKinneys I found on the 1850 Fayette County census. Household 642 Henry Hall 24 Elisabeth 49 MD (Is this Elisabeth (Hall) McKinney, widow of Moses McKinney?) Drucilla 20 (Is this Drucilla McKiney who married the Daniel in the next family? Are they cousins?) Asa West 15 Daniel McKiney 21 Household 643 Daniel McKiney 56 KY Miles C. " 19 Daniel " 17 (Did this Daniel marry the Drusilla in the family above?) Elizabeth " 14 Frances " 11 Are the census ages of these children wrong because they don't match what you sent me? Were Moses and Daniel McKinney brothers? Thanks, Lynne

Lynne: Oh, no! You almost did it. You almost asked "The Daniel Question." Five Daniels are listed in Fayette County Marriage Records. All of the couples are "of age" when they married so there aren't any consent forms to provide clues to parentage. According to the intro of the FCGS printed marriage records that's 21 for men, 18 for women) Daniel McKinney m. Frances Williams, 11 Jun 1825 (s/o Joseph) Daniel McKinney m. Elizabeth Penly, 17 Oct 1844 Daniel McKinney m. Mary Kent, 29 Apr 1852 (s/o of Joseph) Daniel U. McKinney m. Malinda B. Cronk, 24 Apr 1867 Daniel McKinney m. Druzilla McKinney, 23 Feb 1871 Daniel Uriah McKinney m. Mary Hannah Turner, 8 Oct 1886 (s/o Miles) Elizabeth Current Hall family research holds that Lynne Evans wrote: > Carol, > > I have a question about the 2 Daniel McKinneys I found on the 1850 Fayette > County census. > > Household 642 > Henry Hall 24 > Elisabeth 49 MD (Is this Elisabeth (Hall) McKinney, widow of Moses > McKinney?) > Drucilla 20 (Is this Drucilla McKiney who married the Daniel > in the next family? Are they cousins?) > Asa West 15 > Daniel McKiney 21 > > Household 643 > Daniel McKiney 56 KY > Miles C. " 19 > Daniel " 17 (Did this Daniel marry the Drusilla in the > family above?) > Elizabeth " 14 > Frances " 11 > > Are the census ages of these children wrong because they don't match what > you sent me? > > Were Moses and Daniel McKinney brothers? > > Thanks, > Lynne

Lynne -- and any other listers who aren't tired of hearing about McKinneys and their kin: The 49-year-old Elizabeth Hall listed with Henry Hall (her son) on the 1850 Fayette County census (below) is Elizabeth Williams, d/o Calvert Co., MD, natives John H. and Elizabeth "Betsy" (?) Williams. She m1 Henry Hall and m2 Moses McKinney. Although the age shown on this census indicates Elizabeth was born abt. 1801, a Hall - Crotser descendant (who provided much of my initial info) believes her birth date was closer to 1795. The latter seems more probable since she'd married Henry and had a daughter by abt. 1812. Henry d. 1825, and Elizabeth m2 Moses McKinney, 1 Feb 1827, in Fayette County (FC). I have not followed the Hall line that far; according to information received, Henry and Elizabeth (Williams) Hall had at least four children: 1. Mary Ann Hall: b. abt 1812, prob in Calvert Co., MD; m1 Edward McKinney 16 Jun 1829, FC; m2 William West 14 Apr 1844, FC. Mary Ann's first husband, Edward McKinney, is the brother of her mother's second husband, Moses McKinney. Another of their brothers is Daniel McKinney, head of family #655 on same census (see below). 2. Gilbert Hall: b. 1814-16, prob. Calvert Co., MD m. Elizabeth Crotser 13 Jan 1836, FC. 3. Henry Hall, Jr: b. abt 1816, prob. Calvert Co., MD; m. Elizabeth Beck 31 Mar 1841, FC. 4. Nancy A. Hall, b. abt. 1823, prob. FC; supposedly m. David Crotser (aka Crotzer) 22 Feb 1838, FC. Fayette County Marriage Records -- at least printed and web versions -- specifically say David Crotser married Mary Ann Hall (Gilbert Hall swore that Mary's mother, Elizabeth Hall gave consent). However, the second person in David's household in 1850, clearly is Nancy A. Are there any Hall or Crotser people out there who can explain this apparent contradiction? Moses and Elizabeth (Williams) [Hall] McKinney had one known child: 1. Drucilla (aka Druzilla, Drusilla, etc.) McKinney, b. 1827-30, m. Daniel McKinney, 23 Feb 1851. The question is which Daniel did she marry? Did Drucilla3 McKinney, d/o of Moses2, really marry her cousin, Daniel Uriah3 McKinney, s/o Daniel2 and Frances (Williams) McKinney? Most McKinney researchers say yes, but I have my doubts -- unless someone can convince me that the 21-year-old Daniel McKinney enumerated with the Halls in 1850 was Daniel2's son, and the 17-year-old Daniel living with Daniel2 was . . . well, somebody else's kid. (possible but probable?). Of course, the census taker could have made a mistake with the age of the younger Daniel. Any ages on censuses are only approximates (requiring further documentation), but they are usually somewhere in the ball park . . . unless someone really didn't know how old she/she was or purposely "fudged" a bit (read a study somewhere that said men back then tended to say they were older than they really were -- especially if younger than their wives -- and women usually claimed to be younger). According to FC Marriage Records, both Drucilla and "her" Daniel were "of age" when they got married in 1851; that's 18 for women and 21 for men. On the 1870 FC census, Daniel's age is given as 42 (b. abt 1828), Drucilla's as 41 (b. abt 1839). Sharon Township Cemetery records list 30 Nov 1828 as his birth date and 17 Feb 1872 for his death (am fairly sure there are probate records which definitely link Drucilla to the 1872 deceased). This guy wasn't a teenager in 1850. I think it's more likely that Daniel2's son was Daniel U. McKinney who married Malinda Cronk 24 Apr 1867. He also probably was the D. U. McKinney who (according to Bible marriage page) attended/witnessed the marriage of William3 and Nancy (McAliley) McKinney's daughter, Frances4 McKinney, to Samuel Wood Osborn, 14 Sep 1864. Daniel2 McKinney supposedly had seven brothers: Jeremiah, Stephen, Eli, Moses, Edward, Jesse and Joseph, Jr. As far as I know, the children of Eli and Joseph, Jr., have not yet been identified (10 people in Eli's household in 1840). There are several McKinney men married in Fayette County whose connection (if any) to the Joseph1 McKinney family is yet unknown (including an Enoch McKinney and "another" Daniel who m. Elizabeth Penly, 17 Oct 1844). Daniels shown in FC Marriage Records include: Daniel McKinney m. Frances Williams, abt. 11 Jun 1825 (s/o Joseph) Daniel McKinney m. Elizabeth Penly, 17 Oct 1844 Daniel McKinney m. Mary Kent, 29 Apr 1852 (s/o of Joseph) Daniel U. McKinney m. Malinda B. Cronk, 24 Apr 1867 Daniel McKinney m. Drucilla McKinney, 23 Feb 1851 Daniel Uriah McKinney m. Mary Hannah Turner, 8 Oct 1886 (prob. s/o Miles) If anyone can identify all the Daniels (or all the FC McKinneys for sure), I'd sure like to know. _________________ Elizabeth (Williams) [Hall] McKinney and all of her children can be found on page 114 of the Fayette County Genealogical Society's transcribed, printed version of this census. On the actual census, however, Gilbert Hall appears on 381a (written no. 761), the rest on 381b. These pages were enumerated 16 Dec 1850 by G. S. Willis, who seems to have had a tendency to use ditto marks, irregardless of the actual surnames of individuals in a household. Line #, Dwelling #636, Family #648, p. 381a. 20. Gilbert Hall 34 MD (s/o Henry Hall & Elizabeth Williams) 21. Elizabeth " 28? NC (Elizabeth Williams Hall McKinney) 22. Benjamin " 11 IL 23. David I? " 8? " 24. Gilbert " 5 " 24. Mary A. " 2 " 25. Sophronia Britian/Briton? 19 " ? Line #, Dwelling #642, Family #654, p. 381b, lines 15-19 15. Henry Hall 24 IL (s/o Henry Hall & Elizabeth Williams) 16. Elisabeth " 49 MD (Elizabeth Williams Hall McKinney) 17. Drusilla " 20 IL (d/o Elizabeth & Moses McKinney) 18. Asa West 15 OH ? 19. Daniel McKiney 21 IL (b. abt. 1829, so abt. age 22 in 1851) Line #, Dwelling #643, Family #655, lines 20-24 20. Daniel McKiney 56 KY 21. Miles C. " 19 IL 22. Daniel " 17 " (b. abt. 1833, so was abt. 18 in 1851) 23. Elizabeth " 14 " 24. Frances " 11 " (Frances Emeline McKinney) Line #, Dwelling #644, Family #656, lines 25-31 25. David Crotser 33 NC 26. Nancy A " 27 IL (d/o Henry Hall & Elizabeth nee Williams) 27. Henry " 8 " 28. Jacob " 7 " 29. David C. " 3 " 30. Gilbert " 8/12 " 31. John West 17 " ? Line #, Dwelling #645, Family #657 32. Mary A. West 38 MD (d/o Henry Hall & Elizabeth nee Williams) 33. George W " 19 IL 34. Rosina " 15 " 35. Benjamin " 11 " 36. Caroline " 9 " 37 Levi " 4 " (s/o Wm. West & Mary Ann Hall) George, Rosina, Benjamin and Caroline are McKinneys, children of Mary A. and first husband, Edward McKinney. Can anyone identify Asa West (with Halls) or John West (with Crotsers)? Could they be the children of William West and an earlier spouse? If I haven't responded to all of your questions, ask again. This is getting a bit long for the list. Carol in Cornhuskerland FYI: One of Elizabeth Williams Hall McKinney's sisters was Frances Ann Williams who, in June 1825, married Daniel2 McKinney. Lynne Evans wrote: > Carol, > > I have a question about the 2 Daniel McKinneys I found on the 1850 Fayette County census. > > Household 642 > Elisabeth 49 MD (Is this Elisabeth (Hall) McKinney, widow of Moses > McKinney?) > Drucilla 20 (Is this Drucilla McKiney who married the Daniel > in the next family? Are they cousins?) > Household 643 > Daniel " 17 (Did this Daniel marry the Drusilla in the family above?) > > Are the census ages of these children wrong because they don't match what > you sent me? > > Were Moses and Daniel McKinney brothers? > > Thanks, > Lynne Lynne Evans wrote: > Carol, > > I have a question about the 2 Daniel McKinneys I found on the 1850 Fayette > County census. > > Household 642 > Henry Hall 24 > Elisabeth 49 MD (Is this Elisabeth (Hall) McKinney, widow of Moses > McKinney?) > Drucilla 20 (Is this Drucilla McKiney who married the Daniel > in the next family? Are they cousins?) > Asa West 15 > Daniel McKiney 21 > > Household 643 > Daniel McKiney 56 KY > Miles C. " 19 > Daniel " 17 (Did this Daniel marry the Drusilla in the > family above?) > Elizabeth " 14 > Frances " 11 > > Are the census ages of these children wrong because they don't match what > you sent me? > > Were Moses and Daniel McKinney brothers? > > Thanks, > Lynne