Hi List, Online I put in the information to the National Archives and Records Administration. From them I recieved papers which in short said I am so disappointed. Mary and I both read the paper that came back and it said Using your information, we examined our Soundex Naturalization Index covering final naturalizations filed at Federal and non-Federal courts in northwest Indiana, eastern Iowa, eastern and southern Wisconsin, and northern Illinois, 1840-1950 (Chicago and Cook County, IL, October 1871-1950 only); and then an X Enclosed is a copy of the index card(s) for Joseph Bray, who may be the individual(s) of interest to you. It also said Our office does not have non-federal records. It also said there is usually at least a "petiton for naturalization"("final papers") and sometimes in addition (2) a "declaration of intention ("first papers") and (3) a "certificate of arrival." Files do not include the "certificate of naturalization" given to the newly naturalized citizen by the court. To us, that indicated they had the record, just not the non-federal. Today I get all that and the check back and it says "as indicated on our original response, We do not have the records you desire. To obtain them, you will need to contact the county clerk of Black Hawk County, Iowa. Included are a copy of the index card you will need to send and contact information for the court. We apologize for misleading you in any way in the original response." The contact information is outdated. I had to look up the correct phone number and so on online and had already done that prior to sending to the NARA. I had already contacted Ruth Tucker about a record through the Gen. society, she turned me over to a lookup, I had called the number for the County Clerk in Black Hawk and after asking several (and by the way being very patient and nice about it all) determined that the records are not there. The lookup person went to the Court House and had the same luck. The Index card says B 600 Family Name 600 BRAY Given name or names JOSEPH Address (nothing written, just an X on that line) Certificate no. (or vol. and page) Vol. I P. 480 Title and location of court Iowa Sist. Black Hawk Co. Waterloo. Country of birth or allegiance England Wen born (or age) just an X Date and port of arrival in U. S. an X Date of naturalization Oct. 2, 1877 Names and addresses of witnesses just an X I realize that normally pre 1906 records for naturalization have little real information but recently did luck out for a friend (oh WHY couldn't I luck out for me) and found her grandfather's MN naturalization records and those gave his birth month, year and place, where he landed and the month, so if I can find these records I might get a clue as to Joseph's landing place if nothing else which might allow me to determine which Joseph Bray is HIM in the 1870. There are several possibles given that other records argue as to his actual year of birth. Someone knowledgeable on natrualization records on list maybe have any suggestion? Regards, Barb