In a message dated 6/16/2005 5:12:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time, KahluaSue@aol.com writes: What was the status of women who gave birth to illegitimate children? Did these women usually live alone or with their families? . But the stigma of illegitimacy . . . . (An apparent case of the sins of the fathers being passed on to the children....) Let me see if I can pass on a little of what I understand about this line of questioning. The "status" concept you're trying to pin down was not so much related to the physical circumstances of the birth, but rather to how much wealth (land, animals, equipment, etc) a person had, OR, to their potential for wealth through inheritance. Tracking who was the son or daughter of whom was directly, and most importantly, related to claims for inheritance -- it was NOT related to some state of sinfulness through some connection to religion. (that is a Puritan concept established in USA by English). A person's (male or female) prospects for marriage were generally pretty much directly related to how much wealth they had -- and parents tended to try and make arrangements for marriages which improved their land holdings, status, wealth etc. As for your specific questions, unmarried women with children lived in varying circumstances depending on what they owned or didn't own -- if she owned land etc. (living in her own home) then her prospects for marriage were very good, as their were plenty of non-landed peasants around. If her parents were still alive, she probably lived with them, or perhaps with the brother who got the land/house etc upon death of parents. There is no indication in histories, or sociological studies of the time that indicate that unwed mothers, or their offspring were "shunned " so to speak by the villages. The proper way to go after answers to your line of inquiry is to "follow the money" and not confuse things with some concept of morality which didn't exist. As far as I can tell, their was no so-called "stigma" of illegitimacy you mention. It has been reported that couples whose marriage was already arranged would in fact wait to marry until the woman was in fact pregnant -- thereby ensuring that the family line would continue. Any negative attachment to unwed women with children is simply because it "muddies" the water with regard to property rights. Marriages were arranged to improve status, and your family connections gave you rights to wealth -- that is what mattered. The church records served as County Recorders offices do today -- because a person's birth status (i.e., father and mother) defined their inheritance rights. >>>In one village it appears that marriages, baptisms, etc. were all conducted one day a month. Were there visiting priests who traveled from village to village, performing those ceremonies?>>> If there was not an established church and pastor, then yes, some priests at some time did travel a circuit to some of those villages. In other circumstances, people had to travel to the place the priest or pastor was located. This sort of thing was not stable, or driven by some gov't policy. One priest may have been very dedicated to doing this, while the next one may have only been sporadic in his travel attempts. >>>What was done with people who died between visits? Where they just buried, with a funeral mass conducted later?>>> Yes they were buried, usually within one day. Were there really funeral masses conducted? or even any kind of ceremony? or is this again, a more modern or current concept trying to be overlaid on the past? In even moderate size villages in the 1800s (as well as later), several people a day would die -- if a mass were done for each these the priest or pastor wouldn't have time to be doing anything else. My thoughts are that there were no "special" services for the dead such we see today. >>>> Godparents appear to be friends (or sometimes cousins) of the parents of a child being baptized. Was that typical? Why weren't aunts or uncles of the child used as godparents?>>> Often times (meaning both spatially and temporally) there is no such thing as "typical". People followed traditions that were rather local. There are thousands of examples of aunts and uncles serving as godparents, and just as many thousands where it is friends. Same as it is today. In the Lutheran communities, people chose godparents with the same name as either the mother or father for the first born, because the child was named after the godparents (almost exclusively) and they wanted the first born to have the parents name. It had nothing to do with the relationship of the godparents to the actual parents. It could also be that the local church or priest at the time for which the records you're referencing were done had some sort of policy -- again, many of the practices we might see reflected in brief records depended on the whims of the local guy, and where he studied his theology and what was some current interpretation of some particular issue right at that time. There were many ***local*** customs that changed over time or that were driven by who was in charge -- either church or landlord related. >>>At what level of consanquinity was a dispensation required? In one village that I'm researching, nearly every marrying couple is related to the 3rd degree, but I'm not seeing any notes about dispensations.>>>> Do you know that some such thing was required? Depending on what time period you're referring to, it would be difficult (because populations were small) to arrange a marriage to someone to whom you were not related to the 2nd or 3rd degree. Of course marriages were arranged with persons from neighboring villages as well, but I think again, what you are seeing is the use of marriage as a means of consolidating wealth to some degree. As mentioned previously, marriages were arranged for purposes of inheritance, and improving status through property rights and ownership. Since wealth could only be accumulated through land ownership (cash wages were a later thing with industrialization), the "church" in fact encouraged only marriages where the male could prove he could provide for a family -- and that meant having land. Wealth and inheritance rights were the basis for these community relationships. Best regards Linda

pdurant@asis.com wrote: > <>Dear Joe, > When I was in Szent Endre spl? (North of Budapest) a few years ago, > there was a village for tourists which had been moved and rebuilt on the > spot. I was told that village was the deserted town of Mandok. > Pat D. You are right Pat, but only partially. That open air museum collected pieces from all over the country - including Mándok: http://www.sznm.hu/eng/eng.html Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net

I'm returning to my genealogy research after an absence of several years and I'm expanding my research beyond my ancestor's immediate villages to try and go back a little further. But I have some questions about the traditions in Hungary in the 19th century that perhaps a more experienced researcher can answer for me. What was the status of women who gave birth to illegitimate children? I've found the notation "hajadon," which appears to mean "single, unmarried woman." That's obviously a different designation than "celebs" or "virgine," which I'm finding for women who are marrying for the first time. Did these women usually live alone or with their families? Some of them later married, so giving birth to an illegitimate child was apparently not an obstacle to marriage. But the stigma of illegitimacy obviously stayed with the child because I've also found death notices for 70-year-olds that note their illegitimacy. (An apparent case of the sins of the fathers being passed on to the children....) Did illegitimacy make it more difficult for the child to marry? In one village it appears that marriages, baptisms, etc. were all conducted one day a month. Were there visiting priests who traveled from village to village, performing those ceremonies? What was done with people who died between visits? Where they just buried, with a funeral mass conducted later? Godparents appear to be friends (or sometimes cousins) of the parents of a child being baptised. Was that typical? Why weren't aunts or uncles of the child used as godparents? If two people being married are related to the 3rd degree of consanguinity, does that mean that they had a common great-grandparent or a common great-great-grandparent? At what level of consanquinity was a dispensation required? In one village that I'm researching, nearly every marrying couple is related to the 3rd degree, but I'm not seeing any notes about dispensations. Under what circumstances were dispensations granted? Although I have a list of occupation names in both Hungarian and Latin, I'm not finding interpretations for two occupations: arendator and diversitor dnalis (with a curvy line over the N). Were these government or military positions of some kind? Any suggestions on where I could look to find answers? Thanks for any help you can provide. Sue

I would like to thank Gabor, Susan, Peter and"nimpex" for their help in translating my short message for Radix Forum. Hope I did not miss anyone! Jerry

Dear Joe, When I was in Szent Endre spl? (North of Budapest) a few years ago, there was a village for tourists which had been moved and rebuilt on the spot. I was told that village was the deserted town of Mandok. Pat D. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph J Jarfas [mailto:jjarfas@ezaccess.net] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:20 AM To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Mandok Julianne Jacob Brazina wrote: > Good Morning Readers, > > Is there anyone that might help me locate the town of Mandok, in > Szatmar Megye, Hungary of the late 1800's? > ... > > Thank you, Julianna Wrong county, Julie, for those years. Look into Szabolcs, district Tisza, in the NE corner of the county. Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net]

1910 FEDERAL CENSUS, City of Milwaukee, Milwaukee County, Wisconsin. 16-Ward ED#176 page stamped 263 Sheet 12A Ancestry.com Image 23 of 33 Roll: T624_1723 Part 2 Enumerated 23 April 1910 by Paul E Meske Dwelling #looks like 193-219 at 1829 Clybourn Street SZINYAKOWICS [SINYAKOVICH], Joseph head M24 married 1yr HunCroatian/HunCroatian/HunCroatian ~Iron Minery Worker emig looks like: 1909 ----, [ZSARACZ] Anna wife F23 m1yr 0 children-0 living HunCroatian/HunCroatian/HunCroatian emig1909 speaks Croatian ALISYCS [ELLESEG/ILIASACS], Joseph boarder M27 married 1yr Hun Magyar/Hun Magyar/Hun Magyar emig 1906 laborer Iron Minery worker b. Hun Magyar/ HunMagyar/ HunMagyar speaks Magyar [there follows a long list of boarders from Hungary living in the home that also work in the factories. Like SINYAKOVICH & Joseph ELLESEG, my great-grandfather who married Agnes, a sister of Anna (Zsaracz) Sinyakovich above, the spelling is probably phonetic as well as very hard to decipher from the handwriting; most are married although apparently the wives have not yet emigrated. As best as I could transcribe the following from the Census Image, are any of these names remotely familiar to anyone? I'd love to know if they too are "family"] DENVAR, Joseph boarder M46 m23yrs Hun~ Magyar 1908 YERKVES, Vincenz M21 single Hun~ Magyar 1906 BEGOVAS, Wenzel M44 m22yrs Hun~Magyar 1910 BENGAVACS, Marco M50 m30yrs Hun~Magyar 1908 SACA, Humbert M11? single Aust~German 1909 PAGASZ, Andrew M31 or 51 m5yrs Auss~Croatian 1910 GULANCUAS, Andrew M31 or 51 m5yrs Auss~Slovenian 1910 PAGUSZ, Mary F22 m5yrs Auss~Slovenian 1910 HZARATZ, Joseph M40 m20yrs Hun~Croatian 1904 PAPAS, John M33 m7yrs Hun~Magyar 1906 BURANI, Peter M30 m8yrs Hun~Magyar 1906 BORKOWICZ, Lucas M32 m10yrs Hun~Croatian 1907 MINKA, Peter M21 single Hun~Magyar 1909 STURVIES, Steven M28 m6yrs Hun~Croatian 1908 ROENAL, Michael M26 m 4yrs Hun~Magyar 1909 RADNABUN, Frank M38 m14yrs Hun~Magyar 1906. ======== Cynthia (Espres/Esperes) in Wisconsin

Julianne Jacob Brazina wrote: > Good Morning Readers, > > Is there anyone that might help me locate the town of Mandok, in > Szatmar Megye, Hungary of the late 1800's? > ... > > Thank you, Julianna Wrong county, Julie, for those years. Look into Szabolcs, district Tisza, in the NE corner of the county. Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net] --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net]

Try Szabolcs megye instead of Szatmar. It's in the far northeastern district (green) on the Lazarus map. Janet -----Original Message----- From: Julianne Jacob Brazina [mailto:juliejb@ptd.net] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 5:23 AM To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [HUNGARY-L] Mandok Good Morning Readers, Is there anyone that might help me locate the town of Mandok, in Szatmar Megye, Hungary of the late 1800's? I have found on the LDS website the names of Lajos Veres, and again a younger Lajos Veres and both birthdates correlate within a year of the dates we have on family records for grandfather and ggrandfather. We have been led to believe that our relatives may have been born in Borsova or Tiszacsese, while their Ellis manifest shows Vari as the town of birth and origin. So far I have no documentation of the birthplace and really have no living relatives that I can trust actually know which town. The Family Search site on LDS website indicates two men, both Lajos Veres from Mandok. The Jewish Gen site gives me a latitude and longitude proximity, RadixIndex affirms that it's Szatmar, and I cannot find it on my 1900's version of Lazarus Hungarian Maps. Could this be our missing link? Thank you, Julianna

Good Morning Readers, Is there anyone that might help me locate the town of Mandok, in Szatmar Megye, Hungary of the late 1800's? I have found on the LDS website the names of Lajos Veres, and again a younger Lajos Veres and both birthdates correlate within a year of the dates we have on family records for grandfather and ggrandfather. We have been led to believe that our relatives may have been born in Borsova or Tiszacsese, while their Ellis manifest shows Vari as the town of birth and origin. So far I have no documentation of the birthplace and really have no living relatives that I can trust actually know which town. The Family Search site on LDS website indicates two men, both Lajos Veres from Mandok. The Jewish Gen site gives me a latitude and longitude proximity, RadixIndex affirms that it's Szatmar, and I cannot find it on my 1900's version of Lazarus Hungarian Maps. Could this be our missing link? Thank you, Julianna

I received the following one sentence reply to a message I posted on RadixForum: " A te családod véletlenül nem a Szatmári Bencze család? Üdv. Erdős Pál, Geszt." This was in reply to my Post: " My Bencze family is from Szatmar, primarily Batiz and Batiz Vasvari. Anyone connected or familiar with the Bencze family from this area? " Could someone give me a translation? Thanks much! Jerry

Dear List, This site was posted 6/15/05 in the RootsWeb Review. It includes a 1916 posting of the Russian incursion into Hungary; as an anonymous posting. http://www.firstworldwar.com/diaries/index.htm Marika

In a message dated 6/14/2005 9:40:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jjarfas@ezaccess.net writes: > where did you get these 'descriptions'? It's true I just looked into > the 1928 volume and copied those present there. If you tell me which > volume they come from I can check that too, but being busy with other > things I don't have that much time on my own (for searches). > > Dear Joe: I got these descriptions out of my head. I simply described the medals awarded to my father-in-law, according to the pages that have his medal informatoin that I printed out from the site. For instance, my father-in-law's medals for 1940 came from page 126 of Gyalogsag -- Ornagyok. I note that the officers listed below and above my father-in-law on the pages I printed out were awarded some of the same medals as he, and I thought that perhaps someone on this list who is also looking for the meaning of his/her officer's medals could help me. As I wrote, I have not seen any emails from others on this list who are also puzzled--and that puzzles me, too. What do they understand that I do not? You say that if I tell you which volume my father-in-law's medal info comes from, you can check that, too. I don't know which volume(s) it comes from, unless a volume was published for each year. I don't read Hungarian, but I note that the titles on the five pages I have are exactly the same, except for the year. The years in which my father-in-law received medals were 1938 (page 125), 1940 (page 126), 1941 (page page 126), 1942 (page 140), and 1944 (page 118). Thanks for your reply. Jayne perllan987@aol.com

I have a pretty good chance of getting a visit from some cousins from Hungary in the near future. I live in Madison Indiana which is close to Louisville KR, not much further to Cincinnati, OH, and about 100 miles from Indianapolis Indiana. Hungarian is not the most popular language in the world but I am wondering if there might be someone who would be willing/ interested in staying with us as a translator when and if this opportunity comes about. I would prefer a student or a retired person, but would consider most anyone. I would, or could provide all transportation, meals, and a place to live. It could be for a few days or close to a week. If you know of anyone who would be interested, available, or relatively close to this area, please let me know. Sincerely, Alex Nemeth, Madison Indiana

Hello Hungary Listers: Free from 12:01am June 15th thru June 17th at midnight: http://www.censusfinder.com/1920-census-free.htm (No registration required, though it may ask for name and email address) I have gone to the site and it looks to be true. I am posting this at 12:12 CST in USA. Hope everyone finds something useful. Cheers, Jan

Perllan987@aol.com wrote: > ... I found a couple (I think--I am not absolutely certain of those). > I cannot find the rest of them, no > matter how hard I look. It seems to me that some of these medals must > have > been invented after 1928. My father-in-law received all of his medals > in the > 1930s and 1940s. If anyone can figure out what these medals mean, I > would be > grateful for any. > > O followed by a raised 1 -- I think this is the silver knight medal > > O with two swords crossed diagonally and superimposed on the 0-- I > think this > is bronze knight medal > > S. followed by a raised 1 -- the closest I can find is the St. Stephen > small > cross, but I don't think this is right. > > Sz. followed by a raised 3 -- can't find > > Roman numeral II inside O -- can't find > > Roman numeral II inside 0 and followed by A. -- can't find > > O with an E inside -- could this be Hungarian silver merit medal on green > ribbon, which appears as O followed by a lower-case e raised halfway? > > O with an H inside and crossed swords on top of the O-- can't find > > O with HE inside and swords crossed diagonally behind the O -- can't find. > > O with a black cross superimposed on it; the ends of the cross are > flared; > crossed swords behind the O -- can't find > > O with E (I think) inside and semi-circular, upside down swords on either > side of O -- can't find. > > I have not seen any emails from anyone else to the list with this > complaint. > Am I the only one who is having trouble deciphering the meaning of the > medals? > > Jayne > perllan987@aol.com Jayne, where did you get these 'descriptions'? It's true I just looked into the 1928 volume and copied those present there. If you tell me which volume they come from I can check that too, but being busy with other things I don't have that much time on my own (for searches). Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net]

In a message dated 6/13/2005 10:11:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jjarfas@ezaccess.net writes: > Jayne, > > that site won't show your Géza, because he did not die there. Those > prisoners of war listed (and the list is far from complete) all > perished. Your Géza did not. > > Dear Joe: Okay, although he died in Hungary soon after as a result of what he suffered. But I understand now that those on the site died in the Soviet Union. Dear List: While I am writing an email, I want to mention that the translation of the Hungarian description of the military medals in the 1928 book Joe Jarfas used as his source evidently does not cover all of the medals. I found a couple (I think--I am not absolutely certain of those). I cannot find the rest of them, no matter how hard I look. It seems to me that some of these medals must have been invented after 1928. My father-in-law received all of his medals in the 1930s and 1940s. If anyone can figure out what these medals mean, I would be grateful for any. O followed by a raised 1 -- I think this is the silver knight medal O with two swords crossed diagonally and superimposed on the 0-- I think this is bronze knight medal S. followed by a raised 1 -- the closest I can find is the St. Stephen small cross, but I don't think this is right. Sz. followed by a raised 3 -- can't find Roman numeral II inside O -- can't find Roman numeral II inside 0 and followed by A. -- can't find O with an E inside -- could this be Hungarian silver merit medal on green ribbon, which appears as O followed by a lower-case e raised halfway? O with an H inside and crossed swords on top of the O-- can't find O with HE inside and swords crossed diagonally behind the O -- can't find. O with a black cross superimposed on it; the ends of the cross are flared; crossed swords behind the O -- can't find O with E (I think) inside and semi-circular, upside down swords on either side of O -- can't find. I have not seen any emails from anyone else to the list with this complaint. Am I the only one who is having trouble deciphering the meaning of the medals? Jayne perllan987@aol.com

d pfalzer wrote: >I have had no luck with tracing my ggm (I have her >d.o.b. and parents names.) in Beregszasz, now >Berehove, Ukraine. I have sent letters, e-mails but >there is no response. > > >> <>> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:22:44 EDT > >>From: BSKTBTQUE@aol.com >>To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com >>Subject: Szvaljava now in Ukraine >> >>Hi >> >>Has anyone had luck sending for birth records from >>Svalava/Szvaljava in the >>Ukraine? My father-in-law was born in Szvaljava in >>Hungary about 1895. I do >>not have a real date but do have name of his father. >> >>Thank you >>Marie >> With close relatives like that, you better contact the Embassy of Ukraine in D.C. and request a certified copy of the document. Will cost you a few bucks, but let them do it for you. Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net

I have had no luck with tracing my ggm (I have her d.o.b. and parents names.) in Beregszasz, now Berehove, Ukraine. I have sent letters, e-mails but there is no response. > ______________________________> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 11:22:44 EDT > From: BSKTBTQUE@aol.com > To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Szvaljava now in Ukraine > > Hi > > Has anyone had luck sending for birth records from > Svalava/Szvaljava in the > Ukraine? My father-in-law was born in Szvaljava in > Hungary about 1895. I do > not have a real date but do have name of his father. > > Thank you > Marie > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Has anyone had luck sending for birth records from Svalava/Szvaljava in the Ukraine? My father-in-law was born in Szvaljava in Hungary about 1895. I do not have a real date but do have name of his father. Thank you Marie

Hi Jayne, Your welcome. There are many of us researching old Hungarian villages in present day Slovakia. I found that site by accident in a goggle search for a village ... so ... after struggling with the Hungarian language site and finally figuring out some of the information, I sent it on to Hungary-L. Guess what -- there is a way to change the language to English. I just received an email from Gordon Hillman about it. On the left side of the page the word "English" is shown. Hit English and its translated. I'm hitting myself with a wet noodle :-)) Thanks Gordon! Mary Nagy ----- Original Message ----- From: Perllan987@aol.com To: marys1015@sbcglobal.net Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Part of old Hungary now in Slovakia In a message dated 6/12/2005 3:52:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, marys1015@sbcglobal.net writes: http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szlov%C3%A1kia Dear Mary: I don't know whether your email about the site given above was in answer to my question about Vagsellye, but I thank you for it. I just wish it had an English translation. I did find Vagsellye in Nyitra, Slovaka on it. Thank you. Jayne perllan987@aol.com