One more example of the same surname PANYI, PANI, PANY and in America it became PANNY! It all depended on what time frame and who recorded the B/M/D documents. Regards, Szandi In a message dated 2/21/2006 10:03:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, kozlay@comcast.net writes: > Nagy is probably the most common example of a Hungarian name ending in "y" > that does not suggest nobility, and there are many. However, when the > surname stems from a place name, it normally signifies nobility much as the > "von" does in German or "de" in French, both meaning "of." For example, > Rutkay means "of Rutka" and Csepany means "of Csepan." The "i" ending is > better translated as "from" and traditionally does not signify nobility. > However, you may often find an individual's name spelled both ways, even > before Communism. If a place name itself ends in "y," the name may then end > in "yi." > > On the other hand, there are many noble Hungarian families whose names do > NOT end in "y." > > Please note there is a huge difference between nobility and royalty. Royalty > refers only to ruling families. There were many thousands of nobles who had > no relation whatsoever to royalty. Hungary had one of the highest > proportions of nobility in Europe, probably between 5 and 10 percent of the > population. Nobility was often conferred as a result of outstanding military > service, especially against the Turks. It did not automatically make the > noble a landowner, nor was it always an indication of wealth. It did (until > 1848) confer privileges, such as not having to pay taxes. The vast majority > of nobles were untitled and are sometimes referred to as the "lesser > nobility." A small number of prominent families were counts or barons and > are sometimes referred to as "magnates." Other titles were relatively rare. > > Janet >

The great period of immigration between 1890 and 1914, when vast numbers of immigrants came from Southern and Eastern/Central Europe (Austro-Hungarian Empire, Russia, and Italy), was fueled by conditions both in Europe and America. The peasant economy, based on farming as had been practiced in Europe for centuries, was coming to an end. Increasing population and division of the land among heirs meant that most could not feed their families on their small plots. Many of these small plots were then bought up by commercial farmers who were better able to supply food to the exploding populations in the cities. This not only decreased the land available to individual families, the price of land also increased to where it was beyond the grasp of most peasant families. Crop failures due to drought and floods only added to the problem. At the same time, America was undergoing enormous industrial expansion which required cheap labor. Peasants who were faced with great economic hardship at home were lured to America by the promise of jobs. Although we look back and see that there were no streets paved with gold for these millions of immigrants, most of them still were far better off than they had been. You can see this when you look at successive immigrants from a village. Word would get back to the village that life was better in America, and more would follow. By far most of the immigrants came from rural villages, hit the hardest by economic conditions, not the larger cities. I hope this helps. Janet

You are most welcome, Jayne. Actually, it is my great pleasure to find that I am able to post to the group. I've been on this list for perhaps two years now, and for some reason or other, my posts have not shown up in the past. I just decided to try my luck today and woo hoo - it went through! *big grin* all the best Zsuzsana (oops - I spoke too soon - the first time I sent this it went directly to you. Sorry. Maybe this will go to the group:>))

I recently learned there was an ancient village called Tegy. My Tegyi clan apparently started there. I can assure you they were neither nobility or royalty. Elizabeth V. Cardinal evc1369@comcast.net

There are numerous reasons both men and women left Hungary. Some for political reasons, some to avoid the draft, some came for opportunity. It was not only Eastern Europeans who migrated, people from all over the world came to the US or went to other countries. Elizabeth V. Cardinal evc1369@comcast.net

Let me add that "g" and "y" are two separate letters in our alphabet. However, "g" and "y" written together as "gy" equal one individual letter in the Hungarian alphabet. So to remove or change the "y" is not possible in Hungarian. Maureen Tighe-Brown

Why so many Slovaks came during the early 1900s? I think I read somewhere, someone compared, now I can't remember, was it Hungarian taxes going up? Or maybe it was the increasing number of men drafted into the Hungarian army over those years? And as those numbers increased, the number of people leaving Austria-Hungary increased across all ethnic groups. If I can find it, I'll send it to the list. - Elaine ================================================ Original message Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2006 8:20 AM From: "jeanie stout" <msjbostian@yahoo.com> To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: I am new ... I know they must of came to America between 1900-1910 and it appears many did come. I wonder can any one please tell me what as going on why so many Slovac people coming in those early years to New York census below Thank you Jeanie

Just thought I'd point out that the 'Y' in Nagy isn't considered to be a vowel here. It is part of the consonant GY so the I/Y rules do not come into play. best Zsuzsana

Nagy is probably the most common example of a Hungarian name ending in "y" that does not suggest nobility, and there are many. However, when the surname stems from a place name, it normally signifies nobility much as the "von" does in German or "de" in French, both meaning "of." For example, Rutkay means "of Rutka" and Csepany means "of Csepan." The "i" ending is better translated as "from" and traditionally does not signify nobility. However, you may often find an individual's name spelled both ways, even before Communism. If a place name itself ends in "y," the name may then end in "yi." On the other hand, there are many noble Hungarian families whose names do NOT end in "y." Please note there is a huge difference between nobility and royalty. Royalty refers only to ruling families. There were many thousands of nobles who had no relation whatsoever to royalty. Hungary had one of the highest proportions of nobility in Europe, probably between 5 and 10 percent of the population. Nobility was often conferred as a result of outstanding military service, especially against the Turks. It did not automatically make the noble a landowner, nor was it always an indication of wealth. It did (until 1848) confer privileges, such as not having to pay taxes. The vast majority of nobles were untitled and are sometimes referred to as the "lesser nobility." A small number of prominent families were counts or barons and are sometimes referred to as "magnates." Other titles were relatively rare. Janet

I don't think that Everyone changed their surname ending from "y" to "i"... Here is what my friend Laci (Fuzi Laszlo) living in Budapest wrote to me a little over a year ago explaining the surnames: "The difference between Fuzi and Fuzy is only in written, the surname itself is the same. In Hungary a big part of the names are ending with i or y. Mostly of these names means that person is from the place which comes before the "i" or "y". For example the name Pecsi Andor is in English: Andor of Pecs (Pecs is a city in Baranya County), or our present prime minister is Medgyessy Peter in English: Peter of Medgyes (a shortened name of a village), or in the history of the middle age the name of Hunyadi Janos, who beat the Turkish army at Nandorfehervar (today it is Beograd, the capital of Serbia/Montenegro - the former Yugoslavia) is: John of Hunyad (it's a wonderful castle at the southern former Great-Hungary, now in Rumania) As I know the name Fuzi is not like those above, because Fuz does not equal to any settlement. It could have a different story. Let's go further: generally in Hungary before WW2 the noble families wrote their names ending with "y" instead of "i" (In the case where the name normally would had ended with "i") So if their name did not normally end with "i", like for example Szabo Istvan (where Szabo means Taylor, Istvan is Steve), then they made a pre-surname mentioning their local landed property-place, like: Nagyvarady Szabo Istvan. This name shows that this man is from Nagyvarad, he is a noble and his original name is Szabo Istvan. My great-grandfather's name was Kapuvari Fuzy Menyhert. His first name Menyhert is an old Hungarian name, the "y" in Fuzy and the pre-surname (Kapuvari Fuzy = Fuzy of Kapuvar) are signals of his noble ranking." I hope this helps. I typed it exactly as he had written it to me. Tina ----- Original Message ----- From: Perllan987@aol.com To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Names and royal descent In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:55:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, southwick@voyager.net writes: > when communism reigned in Hungary people with surnames ending in "y" > changed to "i", as the "y" denoted royality and they did not want the communists to > know who was of royal bloodlines Dear Tina: My mother-in-law's maiden name was NAGY, which ends in a y and means small, I believe. I understand that NAGY is the most common name in Hungary. It would seem that people bearing the most common name would not descend from royalty. I don't mean to dispute what you wrote, but to say that there are probably some exceptions. What do you think? Actually, my mother-in-law is descended from GHIKA princes who ruled Moldavia and Wallachia, parts of present-day Romania, off and on over several past centuries, and this descent melds with the NAGY line three generations back, but the royal name is GHIKA, not NAGY. The GHIKAs were minor princes, though, not full-blown royalty like the Hapsburgs, because they ruled at the whim of the Turkish Porte. I have noticed that some online lists of European royalty do not even mention the GHIKAs. Jayne perllan987@aol.com

jeanie stout wrote: > Hello > I am new and not sure what to expect . > But I am searching for a very good Slovac older freind his name is > HROBAK and he is related to BUTZ on mother side and a uncle Pisacik. > He was not born until January 22, 1927 . Hi Jeanie, welcome to the world of confusing dates, mis-spelled names and unlisted immigrants! :-) We are all wading through similar 'mud ponds'. There are many reasons Slovaks in particular (but also many other folks [including Hungarians] left the Kingdom of Hungary in the late 1890's and early 1900's; not least the economic conditions existing at the time in their part of the country. Many intended to go back, after they saved a few bucks, to buy a piece of land and live out their lives there, but many never made it (back). That's what happened to your friend's folks. Looking at the data you collected so far I would be inclined to go with the draft registration card (provided it's his), mainly because it gives a place of birth - even though that's mis-spelled also. But I am guessing it to be Hanusfalu, which, when you visit the LDS library site, will give you two places - for a total of four rolls of film. See if you can order them and wade through them. Found it interesting that no Lőrinc(z) (equivalent of Lawrence) Hrobak showed at E.I. Could he have arrived at an other port, like Philadelphia or Baltimore? Worth checking into ... Joe Equinunk, PA - USA jjarfas@ezaccess.net --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by ezaccess.net]

I was not able to find your Lawrence in the immigration records either. However, I can point out a couple of things. First, the country of birth recorded in the census records should be spelled CZECHOSLOVAKIA and he was from present-day SLOVAKIA or SLOVAK REPUBLIC (not "sylvocia"). At the time of immigration, the country was HUNGARY. The family appears to have come from the village of Hanusovce, Slovakia. Its Hungarian name was Hanusfalu or Hanusfalva. However, there were two villages by this name in historic Hungary, one in old Szepes county and one in Saros. You can see Hanusfalva in the old map of Szepes county at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/szepes.jpg in Szepesofalvi District (upper green section). The one in Saros is at http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/saros.jpg in the yellow section and is labeled Tap. Hanusfalu (which stands for Tapolyhanusfalu). The trick will be to discover which is the right one. The RadixIndex (http://www.radixindex.com/placeindex/hanusfalu.shtml) shows both Hrobaks and Piszarcziks living in the village of that name in Szepes in 1891. In addition, in 2003 someone (Mary Ann Hinkle-Ineich) was seeking information about the Pisarczik family from Hanusfalu in Szepes (Spis Hanusovce). See http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/SLOVAKIA/2003-04/1050076901. Her ancestors are no doubt related to the family you are researching. All of this suggests Szepes rather than Saros. In either case, there are church records available through the LDS Family History Centers (Roman Catholic for Szepes and both Roman Catholic and Evangelical for Saros) where you should be able to find these families. According to the 1910 Census, Lawrence immigrated in 1905. (Be sure you don't confuse year of immigration with year of naturalization, as I believe you may have done in a few instances.) However a Hrobak (given name unreadable), age 36, immigrated in 1906 to his brother Lorincz Hrobak in what appears to be Benton, New York. At the time of the 1910 Census, Lawrence and his wife, Mary, had been married for three years, which means they were not married when they immigrated. I have not tried tracing the other family names. Do not be overly concerned with exact dates or ages recorded in the Census records, and you have already noted that there are likely many spelling variations. Janet

Hi Tina, Just a couple of pointers. The letters "gy" along with "cs", "ly", "sz", "ty", "zs" are diagraphs. They represent a single speech sound in the Hungarian alphabet as the "gh" in English (tough). The word 'fuz' means willow (tree), so Fuzi could mean "from the willows". JMN -----Original Message----- From: Scott & Tina Southwick [mailto:southwick@voyager.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 10:54 AM To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Names and royal descent I don't think that Everyone changed their surname ending from "y" to "i"... Here is what my friend Laci (Fuzi Laszlo) living in Budapest wrote to me a little over a year ago explaining the surnames: "The difference between Fuzi and Fuzy is only in written, the surname itself is the same. In Hungary a big part of the names are ending with i or y. Mostly of these names means that person is from the place which comes before the "i" or "y". For example the name Pecsi Andor is in English: Andor of Pecs (Pecs is a city in Baranya County), or our present prime minister is Medgyessy Peter in English: Peter of Medgyes (a shortened name of a village), or in the history of the middle age the name of Hunyadi Janos, who beat the Turkish army at Nandorfehervar (today it is Beograd, the capital of Serbia/Montenegro - the former Yugoslavia) is: John of Hunyad (it's a wonderful castle at the southern former Great-Hungary, now in Rumania) As I know the name Fuzi is not like those above, because Fuz does not equal to any settlement. It could have a different story. Let's go further: generally in Hungary before WW2 the noble families wrote their names ending with "y" instead of "i" (In the case where the name normally would had ended with "i") So if their name did not normally end with "i", like for example Szabo Istvan (where Szabo means Taylor, Istvan is Steve), then they made a pre-surname mentioning their local landed property-place, like: Nagyvarady Szabo Istvan. This name shows that this man is from Nagyvarad, he is a noble and his original name is Szabo Istvan. My great-grandfather's name was Kapuvari Fuzy Menyhert. His first name Menyhert is an old Hungarian name, the "y" in Fuzy and the pre-surname (Kapuvari Fuzy = Fuzy of Kapuvar) are signals of his noble ranking." I hope this helps. I typed it exactly as he had written it to me. Tina ----- Original Message ----- From: Perllan987@aol.com To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2006 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] Names and royal descent In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:55:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, southwick@voyager.net writes: > when communism reigned in Hungary people with surnames ending in "y" > changed to "i", as the "y" denoted royality and they did not want the communists to > know who was of royal bloodlines Dear Tina: My mother-in-law's maiden name was NAGY, which ends in a y and means small, I believe. I understand that NAGY is the most common name in Hungary. It would seem that people bearing the most common name would not descend from royalty. I don't mean to dispute what you wrote, but to say that there are probably some exceptions. What do you think? Actually, my mother-in-law is descended from GHIKA princes who ruled Moldavia and Wallachia, parts of present-day Romania, off and on over several past centuries, and this descent melds with the NAGY line three generations back, but the royal name is GHIKA, not NAGY. The GHIKAs were minor princes, though, not full-blown royalty like the Hapsburgs, because they ruled at the whim of the Turkish Porte. I have noticed that some online lists of European royalty do not even mention the GHIKAs. Jayne perllan987@aol.com

In a message dated 2/20/2006 9:55:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, southwick@voyager.net writes: > when communism reigned in Hungary people with surnames ending in "y" > changed to "i", as the "y" denoted royality and they did not want the communists to > know who was of royal bloodlines Dear Tina: My mother-in-law's maiden name was NAGY, which ends in a y and means small, I believe. I understand that NAGY is the most common name in Hungary. It would seem that people bearing the most common name would not descend from royalty. I don't mean to dispute what you wrote, but to say that there are probably some exceptions. What do you think? Actually, my mother-in-law is descended from GHIKA princes who ruled Moldavia and Wallachia, parts of present-day Romania, off and on over several past centuries, and this descent melds with the NAGY line three generations back, but the royal name is GHIKA, not NAGY. The GHIKAs were minor princes, though, not full-blown royalty like the Hapsburgs, because they ruled at the whim of the Turkish Porte. I have noticed that some online lists of European royalty do not even mention the GHIKAs. Jayne perllan987@aol.com

Spelling of names... I've noted that there's been a lot of discussion on spelling. One has to remember that the further back the records go, especially village records, usually the only individual with a modicum of literacy was the priest or minister and he didn't necessarily have that extensive an education either! He would attempt to write records, probably phonetically if there was no other reference and especially if his parishioners were illiterate or semi-literate. The concern for spelling is not limited to Hungarian genealogical research - it's pervasive throughout European records. My wife's and my ancestries include, Hungarian, German, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Norwegian and Swedish roots and in EVERY case, there are spelling anomalies plus there's poor penmanship, incomplete records and damaged records with staining, bleed-through, etc. At the onset of genealogical research it's a bit hard to accept but with time it becomes an accepted fact. Hope this helps, Bob Herrmann ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott & Tina Southwick" <southwick@voyager.net> To: <HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [HUNGARY-L] writing >I have found the same in my research, different spellings...Although my >friend in Budapest says that the surnames are the same if you find someone >with a different spelling.....he also goes on to tell me that in my case >Fuzi and Fuzy are the same name. and Jagadics and Jagadits are the >same......I agree that a lot of the problem was the person writing the >record. In the ending "i" and "y" however my Hungarian friend tells me >that when communism reigned in Hungary people with surnames ending in "y" >changed to "i", as the "y" denoted royality and they did not want the >communists to know who was of royal bloodlines... > Tina Fuzi-Southwick > ----- Original Message ----- > From: marlo > To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:07 AM > Subject: [HUNGARY-L] writing > > > We found an entry in a Greek Catholic church where it looks like > the c is a t in the middle of the name. Is it possible that a priest > who made the entries wrote so that we read it as a t instead of > a c? This was in the early 1800 and went on for a few years. > Margaret > > > >

Jane wrote: Dear Tina: My mother-in-law's maiden name was NAGY, which ends in a y and means small, I believe. Jane, one tiny correction NAGY in English means big, large. Hope this helps, Laszlo (Les) Josa

Hello I am new and not sure what to expect . But I am searching for a very good Slovac older freind his name is HROBAK and he is related to BUTZ on mother side and a uncle Pisacik. He was not born until January 22, 1927 . He only knew of his father and mother and mothers sister who came from Checkosylvocia he thought as I dug into finding him his family. I find they were indeed slovac and I find the 1910/1920/1930 census records gave different details. Ages often were different/ and the place they came from was different and the date of arrival and Narturalization dates were off and different. I can not seem to find them indexed on Ellis Island site. I know they must of came to America between 1900-1910 and it appears many did come. I wonder can any one please tell me what as going on why so many Slovac people coming in those early years to New York census below Thank you Jeanie April 18 1910 Montville , Morris County New Jersey Lawrence HROBAK is 23 years old. They are from Hungary and they speak Slovac ------ According to the World War I Draft Registration Card on June 5 1917 He is listed as age 29 He was born on 8/10/1887 His birth place listed as what looks like Hannover/Hanuscove, Hungary He is living in Montville, NJ ------- January 1920 196/207 Montville, Morris County New Jersey Lawrence "indexed" CHROBAK age 32 Mary age 32 This census says they are from Austria / Slovac ---------- April 9 1930 Montville Village /Township South Part, Morris County New Jersey Hrobak, Lawrence age 43 married for 23 years born in Checkosylvocia he speaks Slovac / naturalized in 1905 -- April 22 1910 447 3rd street 1st ward Passaic New Jersey Sophie BUTZ age 16 from Austria / Polish 1909 Weaver in a woolen Mill She is boarding in a boarding house owned by John and Sophie Stabeck 9 boarders board in this home all work in the mills. Every one is from Austria Some other boarders maybe relatives? Mary Butz age 20 Stanley Butz age 24 Antonia Hroback --- January 16, 1920 Montville, Morris County New Jersey Andrew PISACCIK / Pivarnik 24 Naturalized 1913 Slovac Sophie 24 Naturalized 1913 Slovac ----- April 9 1930 Montville Village /Township South Part, Morris County New Jersey 217/218 Andrew PISACIK age 34 Naturalized 1913 Slovac/ Mason works on Steam Rail road Sophie (BUTZ) age 34 Naturalized 1913 Slovac __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

I have found the same in my research, different spellings...Although my friend in Budapest says that the surnames are the same if you find someone with a different spelling.....he also goes on to tell me that in my case Fuzi and Fuzy are the same name. and Jagadics and Jagadits are the same......I agree that a lot of the problem was the person writing the record. In the ending "i" and "y" however my Hungarian friend tells me that when communism reigned in Hungary people with surnames ending in "y" changed to "i", as the "y" denoted royality and they did not want the communists to know who was of royal bloodlines... Tina Fuzi-Southwick ----- Original Message ----- From: marlo To: HUNGARY-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 11:07 AM Subject: [HUNGARY-L] writing We found an entry in a Greek Catholic church where it looks like the c is a t in the middle of the name. Is it possible that a priest who made the entries wrote so that we read it as a t instead of a c? This was in the early 1800 and went on for a few years. Margaret

To the persons who so graciously answered our question we say thank you. I thought that perhaps that particular priest wrote that way or he wrote the way he heard the name. Only one little bump on the road of research, but it is amazing how well we began to read those old records. Thank you. Margaret

In a message dated 2/19/2006 8:18:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, nimpex@earthlink.net writes: > In the old days they quite often interchanged the c and t, for instance in > "Pauntz" and "Pauncz". Joe and Janet, Thanks so much for the eye-opener regarding the c and t substitution and keeping an open mind re spellings. I have been puzzled about this for years. The name Pécsi is spelled Pétsi on the baptismal certificate and not on any other documents. Correspondence to Hungary regarding the spelling initiated the words "as spelled", but with no other explanation. I have been including both spellings as part of my search. I thought the "t" was because of the pronunciation (pa(t)chee). We went to the church while in Hungary but unfortunately our interpreter couldn't go with us. My cousin's husband , who didn't know any English, just Hungarian and German, did go and queried the priest in Hungarian on other matters for over an hour while looking at the family records which were documented in their church records. Afterwards, when it was time to get a report from an English interpreter about what was discussed, the cousin's only report was...."nothing is known as to what happened to the family; they are not in the cemetery." This was just one more further consternation, on my part, beyond their comments...Why do you want to know? They are all dead. A word of advise, if one is faced with discussions in a foreign language, insist on simultaneous documentation of questions/answers in the foreign writing, at that given time. If you don't, you may be faced with a deliberately forgetful, or at best, a conveniently lazy interpretation report; i.e., depending on the credence of the interpreter. Marika