Hello All, Now this is a topic very dear to my interests. Just who or when did all this Reform thing begin ? If one journeys back to around 1438 in France, it is very easy to see that all was not well within the rank and file of the masses. Goodness comrades I digress already. Back on topic me. Well yes, the masses of those wonderfully pious Bishops and other clergy of the Roman Catholic church in France. Seems some were grumbling to the King that some fellow thought he could tell them what to do and they were confused due the King telling them what they should be doing and more importantly who to donate money to. Now the King, who happened to be Charles VIII, had some rather radical ideas, for the time, that HE was the main man in France and not some Pope, any Pope will do but that is another story of having two Popes at the same time. Anywho... Charlie, the King, decides to take things on himself and calls a synod to meet in Bourges. Nice place is Bourges it was only last week...opps digression. So the Synod meets and out of that meeting comes many a change to the church in France. By golly is change meaning Reform ? Yes, folks Pragmatic Sanction. Neat title but what does it all mean to the church in France ? Well one of the outcomes, which was really just to sooth the Pope somewhat, was that general councils shall be held every ten years, in places to be designated by the Pope. Oh well he does get to have a say in some things but the next one must have really set the Pope back as it said that the authority of the general council is superior to that of the Pope in all that pertains to the faith, the extirpation of schism, and the reform of the Church in both head and members. "..superior to the Pope" wow, them is fighting words and then the last few words of this item about "reform of the church". The little matter of Annates surely got the old Catholics outside of France jumpng as it would deprive them of money. And folks that is where I come in as I tend to follow the thought that the Reformation was about money, land and eventually religion in that order. Annates ? new word for some ? Well it simply means that if a Bishop set up shop, the money collected in the first year were to sent off to the Pope. The seventh judgement of the 'Pragmatic Sanction of Bourges' forbid such Annates. Now we have all read about the Reformation and Gutenberg, Luther, Zwingli and company. And sure they did their part but this Synod was a long time before them, in the case of Calvin by some 90 odd years. I would suggest that Luther may make a claim as one of the religious founders of the Reformation, although there is much evidence to suggest that even he was only at the mid-point of the Reform. I would further suggest that the beginnings of the Reformation were from within the church itself. And yes we know Luther was a priest and all, however there would seem to be many others prior to Luther who can claim to have been the founders of the Reformation in Europe. I add the word Europe there, just to isolate which Reformation we are discussing. I don't really think the Mayans cared two hoots about the European one nor did the Inuit of the nothern regions. Something to ponder and I shall do so more. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy