Hello Listers et Listerettes, Marc is offering some very good opinion in : > We have to be clear about what we mean by "government positions". During the > period of the Wars of Religion, the French state (the machinery of > government) was being formed, at first haphazardly and mostly for the > purposes of tax collection and other finance-related needs (wars and royal > lifestyles costing a great deal of money) and then later (and particularly > under Mazarin and Richelieu) systematically, for bureaucratic and > intelligence-gathering purposes. The French "state", as such, can be read as those who did as they were told by the Kings' closest associates and not necessarily the way in which we today use the term. Equality , Fraternity was a yet to be heard of term, during this period. > At that same time, the new "state" machinery was clashing with older > bureaucratic forms -- those of individual principalities, of self-governing > cities, of the church, and of the law, all of which operated > semi-autonomously from, and often at odds with, the national "state". Exactly the point. While the puppets of the King were busily attempting to keep their own little power bases, there were many others in local seats of power attempting to use their own family interests to gain further estates and power. The church, (Catholic) and its struggles with the Protestants (Huguenot) was really just a side issue to the struggles of those forming the new middle class. Remember folks that until this period there was no such thing as what we today refer to as the middle classes. Prior to the rising of the accountants and merchants there were only two ways. The "haves" and the "have nots". "Haves" being minor nobility and upward, the "have nots" those who worked for the "haves" Much of the rise of the Huguenot had to do with those merchants, lawyers and accountants who saw a way of increasing their own estates under the guise of the religious wars. For some odd reason much of this is buried by historians as they just love the fanciful idea that this period of history was all about religion. Marc continued on with : > This would NOT mean that Protestants were not in positions of state power in > parts of modern-day France during the period under discussion. They most > assuredly were, and in some areas dominated the 'government' of a particular > city or region, in power if not in number. All history is local and specific > in this period, so know WHERE you are researching.... Once again calling a spade a shovel ! In far of Bretagne, there were many locals with ideas of using the religious quarrel to their own seperate advantage. In some towns, cities in Normandie there were several families who did as Marc is suggesting. By sheer weight of numbers, dominated the local decision making. If they did not have the numbers then they certainly used their financial clout to have things done in their favor. None of which had anything to do with the King of France or the squabbles of the religious proponents. Sounds familiar to modern day democracy, doesn't it now ? Every one is equal, but those with money or supply food, are more equal than others. Hmm I wonder if Marx had Huguenot ancestors ? Oh yes, yes.. suffering , torture and badly done by were our Huguenot ancestors, but let us not confuse the creation of the middle class with the wars of religion in France. Easily done, as they occured at the same time. Kind Regards, Peter Leroy